Great Western Coffee Shop

It was very interesting to hear many of the aspects of bus operation and how the Concessionary fares system, and its extension next April, is filling the buses but that the bus companys are getting such low rates of pay for these journeys. In once case they've even had to withdraw a route that was fully loaded.

At Travel Watch South West yesterday, an independent operator (Western Greyhound) and company directors from both First and Stagecoach bus operations took part in a short impromptu open question and answer session which told the audience - well - far more than I knew as a bus passenger before!

The rates paid to the bus operators for pensioner's free travel is well below what a typical price would be and is actaully making a loss in some cases.   Talk was of payments at a very maximum of 80% of the real fare (and that being some Scottish cases) down to just 39% that was offerend to one southern operator (that was, though, increased on appeal).   And thouse figures are a serious problem when the companies are working on margins of around 8 to 10%.

The regular traveller, then, is subsidising through their higher fares the loss making free travellers.  The bus companies have no choice but to provide the free travel under law - 9:30 a.m. to 11 p.m  Monday to Friday, all day Saturday and Sunday, which can be extended by local agreement and often is.

At present, the scheme is a local one with concessionary travellers getting the bus in their own area to the limits of that area, then perhaps having to pay.   As from next April, the scheme goes national which means that a pensioner from Hull can ride in Torbay, with 62% (I think it was) of the regular journey cost paid for by the Torbay taxpayer, and the remaining 38% picked up by the non-concession bus users / bus company.  It was pointed out that a lot more people from Hull go on holiday to Torbay than go on holiday from Torbay to Hull.

New subject.  An EU regulation that was designed to stop certain cross-border lorry abuse has been drafted such that local bus routes can no longer exceed 50km. Again, all the operators up in arms and talking about real hardship and some nasty cases. Ever wondered why the Chippenham to Bristol bus service has been split in two, with a change necessary at an ill-equipped roadside busstop in Marshfield? I understand this new EU rule is the reason. I also understand that the service now has districtly fewer users than before it was split!

Come, come, whose having the wool pulled over his eyes then.

A bus operator runs a bus service to make a profit and pay a dividend to its shareholders. If a service did'nt pay or at least break even they would'nt operate it.

If a local authority is paying a local (albeit a part of a nationwide organisation) bus operator a subsidy to operate unremunerative bus services, the bus operator still budgets to end up with a surplus at the end of the day or they wouldnt tender to operate those services so put out to tender by the LA's. Why should'nt the Govenment of the day then, on behalf of all the LA's in the UK, legislate to introduce a concessionary fares scheme to benefit the less well off and less able members of the community. It is not as though the bus companies don't benefit from extra revenue by having the scheme in place, they do but it seems to me from your comments that they want their cake and eat it.

The operators stance, as it comes across to me from you comments Grahame, could be likend to a taxi driver wanting four times the displayed meter fare from you when you book a taxi from Melksham to Swindon for yourself and three of your friends to have a night out in Swindon clubing.

In my neck of the woods the LA sets out the fare structure for taxis and it does not include to my knowledge, an addon for additional  passengers luggage and bulky items, but I know from my usage of taxis in London some years ago that when you hailed a cab and more than one piled in then straight away extras were flagged up on the meter. The same with luggage, each case or bulky item was flagged up as an extra. THIS was the icing on the cake for the taxi operators and the bus operators should look the concessionary bus pass scheme as the icing on their cake as well, the profitable, break even and subsidised routes being the cake, without the concessionary bus pass scheme they would only have the cake and not the icing.

I REST my case.

Fill a 31 seat bus as 1 pound a seat and you take 31 pounds.  Put just 20 people in a 31 seat bus and charge them each 2 pounds, and you take 40 pounds.  The latter is the model the system is built on; the former is how some routes are now running and, yes, at least one route has been withdrawn already I am told.

If I was a regular user of a bus that got so busy that I was denied boarding from time to time, I would take to my car or look for another way.  Pensioners often can't / don't / have the spare time to wait an hour for the next one which if I'm off to work I do not.  So the profitable business is lost ...

The metrics of taxis are that they are priced based on an occupancy of 1 full fare passenger, not 20 full fare passengers.

OK - enough from me; this is an area in which I am not an expert and I know that there are some greedy, shark-like behaviours out there from the bus companies.  But I felt that this case and concern was worth an airing here.

The bus companies have a clever plan to get more money back for free concessionary fares. They often give out returns instead of singles. They don't care what the destination says on the ticket and are more the happy to make it say the full length of the journey for a one stop journey.

It's all a farce, you pay your extortionate bus fare (which in Cornwall are fare higher than the comparative train fare!) find a seat and then when some old biddy gets on who is travelling FREE and there are no spare seats then I have to give up my seat! is that fair? no it isn't, especially when there are a lot of people who have bus passes who have far more money than me!

I know. The bus fares are extorciante in Cornwall compared to the train which is cheap if you travel off-peak. I can (on a childs ticket) travel for roughly the same price between Helston and Penzance(10 miles) on the bus and Camborne and Plymouth on the train.

A prime example is Penzance to Roseudgeon (between Penzance and Porthlevan, about 8 miles max!) which is ^4.30 return on the bus, off peak, and Penzance to Truro on the train which is about 30 miles is ^5 CDR!

Grahame.

I got no sympathy for the bus operators, big boys or minnows on this.

In the example, 2 alternatives, you gave I am assuming that the operator is covering costs in both alternatives.

After the introduction of the Concessionary Bus Pass scheme the operators fare box income drops so the operator is forced to withdraw the service. Notice is given as required by statute. Public outrage ensues but look at the remedy.

Unless it has changed since I was a member of a local authority, in the case of a bus company giving notice of their intention to withdraw a service, officers in the relevent department of a local authority have delgated powers to issue, with due diligence, an emergency contract for the continuation the service. The procedure would then be for a report to be produced to the relevent sub-committee of the LA and a proposed remedy put forward to a full meeting of the aurhority. In the best scenario, the LA would agree for the service to continue as a supported service and seek formal tenders from operators, the likes of Stagecoach, First Group, Go-Ahead and Arriva right down to the one man band with 2 or 3 vehicles who operates from that converted barn at the end of the village are on a level playing field here and can put in a tender.

We need to know the full facts of the case you put forward Grahame so for the present lets reserve judgement.

Interesting related article (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7107057.stm

"Plain English Guide to ITSO smartcards and National Concessionary Bus Travel in England" (link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buses/concessionary/local/ITSO_National_Concessiona2.pdf

I really dislike free bus passes and TV licencies for old people.  It is typical Labour interference in peoples lives.  Sure some old folk don't have enough cash for bus fares.  the solution would be to increase their pensions or lower their taxes rather than let them travel on buses and watch TV for free.  Some old folk would spend the money on  buses, some would buy a car or use taxis, some would spend it on gin and some would stick it in a matress.  What they do with it is noone elses business.  The state should step in to make sure that everyone has a reasonabe level of money but what they chose to spend it on should be left to the individual.

Can anyone defend free bus passes as a good use of taxpayers money?

I think it would be more defendable at an older age, say 70 or 75. TV licences is less of an issue, as it doesn't create demand for more TV licences, and thus put the cost of providing the service up.   

With the old getting free bus travel, there is trouble ahead. Pensioners basically fall into two groups those who have decent pensions and have more spending money in a Month than I get all year, and those who have nothing but a pitiful state pension. what would you do? Stay at home trying to keep warm when you can't afford to eat or spend all day sitting on a nice warm bus with friends going everywhere and nowhere.

Free bus travel should only go to those that need it, like mothers with children struggling to keep a roof over there heads. Yes their are pensioners with little but there any manymore young mothers with children who get less.

I'm just glad this free bus travel doesn't extend to Free Rail Travel.

There is a lot to be said for giving pensioners the money that is spent on service for them via an increase in their pensions rather than the government treating them as if they're "not quite with it" any longer and deciding how money that's earmarked for their services should be spent.

I am fully aware that statement is likely to be create some controversy ... but it does seem at times that the government feels it knows best, when I rather suspect that most pensioners would prefer to have the CHOICE between a bus fare, a train fare, or the occasional Chinese takeaway if they're so minded!

Don't get me started on over 60's free travel!

Stagecoach Devon threaten cuts because of it...
http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144125&command=displayContent&sourceNode=232450&contentPK=19469102&folderPk=108202&pNodeId=251466

The councils dont like it....
http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144125&command=displayContent&sourceNode=144125&contentPK=19469100

But others do...
http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144125&command=displayContent&sourceNode=232450&contentPK=19469108&folderPk=108202&pNodeId=251466

As quite a few members know  - I degrudge the free travel!

Thankfully my local route is double decker so I am able to get a seat!

Makes me p**s, just because they are over 60 they get free travel, even if they have a private pension that pays twice my annual sallary, they've already paid off their mortgage, it's descrimination against young people!

Fortunatly my local services are stupidly cheap, so they and are usually at 95% capacity, even with old folks and there passes

Cheap bus?

I've never seen those words next to each other  :o

Yes, i'm really not joking.

Cardiff bus are stupidly cheap compared to first

Something to do with NOT being ENGLAND.

Let me think, Cheap Buses, Free Prescriptions, investment in Rail, all paid for by Westminster (IE the English Tax payer).

Wales a better place to live me thinks.

No it's not cheap because it's in wales and not england. It's cheap because it's run by the city council, and it's in there best intrest to make it cheap so they get people off there roads. (oh and they have valley lines to compete with, who also charge a stupidly cheap ticket price)

now edit that to the UK taxpayer, and you'd be on the right train of thought.

Smokey knows it all though remember!  ;)

http://www.ctpg.co.uk/ctpg_news2.htm

They've got some super cool new buses though. Even my 80+ year old Mum was raving about them (and yes, I know, she doesn't pay either).

aye, they're rather good.

The overall standard of buses is rather high in cardiff as it is

What's the latest on the proposal to sell off part of Cardiff Bus? (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=609.msg2105#msg2105

as far as i'm aware, it's pretty much been chelved

Ok if it's nothing to do with being in Wales, only that the City Council run the Buses, just tell me where you GET CHEAP BUSES in England, any town will do.

Birmingham? its about ^1.20 max fare.

Thats only because of all the "Network West Midlands" stuff though!

Network West Midlands link.
http://www.networkwestmidlands.com/

The scheme to bring in free national bus passes for the over-60s should not cost North Somerset Council any extra money, says the authority (link below.)
http://thisissomerset.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=147472&command=displayContent&sourceNode=242195&contentPK=19572929&folderPk=113662&pNodeId=251478

DfT link.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buses/concessionary/Reimbursement


So there you have it...

The new national bus pass, which will come into effect on April 1, has been launched in Plymouth by Francis Drake look-alike Brian Whipp (link below.)
http://thisisplymouth.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=133464&command=displayContent&sourceNode=133158&contentPK=19661929&folderPk=78031&pNodeId=133174

Plymouth City Council and First yesterday celebrated the first anniversary of new buses running from The George junction into the city centre. Staff handed out slices of birthday cake to early morning passengers.

Concerns about this at Oxford City Council (link below.)
http://oxfordmail.net/display.var.2010498.0.free_bus_passes_bill_fears_grow.php

DfT survey link plus press release.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/scienceresearch/orresearch/busconcessionsurvey.pdf

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=349968&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False

Gloucestershire Echo article (link below.)
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=19903898&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

A couple of relevant DfT links.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buses/concessionary/nbcfaddtngrants/consultspecialgrantfunding.pdf

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/rptworkingtimedirective

According to a poll, 69 per cent of bus pass holders in Plymouth plan to explore the shops in other areas, and 60 per cent are intending to catch up with family and friends (link below.)
http://thisisplymouth.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=133464&command=displayContent&sourceNode=133158&contentPK=19982842&folderPk=78031&pNodeId=133174

DfT Final Assessment of the Impact of English National Concessionary Bus Travel Pass (link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/aboutria/ria/bustravelassess.pdf

North Somerset have done quite well. I think locally, Hampshire have come off worse.

On April 1, 60-year-old Roger Jenking is travelling from Oxford to Crewe - solely using local buses (link below.)
http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.2096701.0.60yearold_to_test_out_new_bus_scheme.php

He has decided to test a national concessionary local bus scheme which starts that day.

Mr Jenking plans to catch the 9am bus from Oxford to Chipping Norton.

From there he will catch the 10.02am service to Stratford, before hopping on the 11.45am to Birmingham.

From Birmingham he catches the 1.30pm to Wolverhampton, then the 3.46pm for Stafford, where he hopes to catch the 5pm to Stoke.

The final leg of his journey will see him taking a 6.34pm service to Crewe, which arrives at 7.25pm.

If Mr Jenking was paying for the trip, it would cost ^21.

The only direct National Express coach from Oxford to Crewe on that day leaves at 1.55pm and arrives at 6.20pm. A one-way fare costs ^24.

Mr Jenking plans to travel back by train.

All that bus travel, sorry that's my Idea of Hell.

Could be when I pass on, I'll go to Old Nicks place, might just find Hell is a Never ending bus ride!  ;D

I did something similar in June 2007, as an experiment for Save The Train (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=346.msg1008#msg1008

Stagecoach could make cuts to bus services in Gloucestershire amid a dispute with local authorities (link below.)
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=20123352&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

Hubby is entitled to a free bus pass.
Unfortunately, he`d have to walk more than 3 miles, up & down 1-in-4 hills, to the nearest bus stop.
Doh.

More DfT links.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buses/concessionary/concessionmarketingcoms/concesspressrelease/

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buses/concessionary/guidancetcasbusops

The six district councils in Gloucestershire say they will not be "railroaded" into paying Stagecoach in a dispute over the concessionary fares scheme. Stagecoach threatened to cut lifeline services, saying it had to recoup funds after the scheme left it more than ^400,000 out of pocket (link below.)
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=20184434&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

But the councils' consortium disputes the accuracy of the bus company's figures and accuses it of "Dick Turpin tactics" by pressurising it into handing over taxpayers' money for the time services were disrupted by floods.

This is despite the Government's independent adjudicator ordering the consortium to pay ^447,829 to meet the underpayment for the 2007/08 financial year.

Interesting that Stagecoach are laying some of the blame on the councils' consultants.

A pensioner has said a new national concessionary bus pass scheme was unfair, as the times the pass allows people to travel varies between districts (link below.)
http://www.oxfordmail.net/display.var.2140887.0.bus_scheme_unfair_says_oap.php

The new pass, which comes into force on April 1, entitles anyone over 60 or disabled to free travel on local buses between 9.30am and 11pm.

But three out of five district councils in Oxfordshire have decided to run the Government- subsidised scheme from 9am instead, and meet the extra cost themselves, although Cherwell and Vale of White Horse District Councils have not.

Cherwell leader Barry Wood said it would cost council taxpayers an extra ^120,000 annually.

He added that extending the scheme in the future was still a possibility.

Bus services have been cut, others may be reviewed and improvements halted as the row continues (link below.)
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=20226378&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

Bus passengers on some rural routes are being forced off their vehicles part way through their journey because of EU rules (links below.)
http://thisiscornwall.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144125&command=displayContent&sourceNode=232510&home=yes&more_nodeId1=232470&contentPK=20237332

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144125&command=displayContent&sourceNode=232450&contentPK=20237330&folderPk=108202&pNodeId=251466

Legislation forbids bus drivers from travelling for more than 30 miles in one go.

Passengers on some routes must get on and off their bus, sometimes twice, to prevent bus operators from prosecution.

Operators in Cornwall have condemned the new rule brought in last April as "idiotic" and have called for Whitehall to step in.

Western Greyhound, based in Newquay, has been forced to split its Newquay to Plymouth service into three sections.

Although one driver is used throughout the trip, passengers have to buy three tickets and break their journey twice.

Mark Howard, managing director, said:


Larger bus operators said they have worked around the new legislation and that services have not been disrupted.

Operators First Devon and Cornwall operate a number of routes over 30 miles and carry 17 million passengers around the two counties every year.

Company chiefs said they had decided it was more important to continue to serve the customers on these routes with no disruptions.

A spokesman said:

Campaign for Better Transport view (link below) :
http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/campaigns/public_transport/buses/blog

Article link on bus pass plans in the North Somerset area (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=20275404

Elsewhere, the huge number of people who visit Windsor is causing concerns about the scheme (link below.)
http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/news/article-5883-bus-pass-charges-could-cost-council-dear/

Pensioners have taken more than 700,000 extra free trips on Oxford buses in the past six months ^ leaving the city council with a ^400,000 budget black hole (link below.)
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/3757402.Bus_pass_bill_hits___400k/

A scheme allowing pensioners to travel anywhere on local services free of charge and changes to how councils pay bus operators has seen an increase of almost 50 per cent in the number of subsidised journeys.

It is costing the council hundreds of thousands of pounds and has led to overcrowding on some routes.

Council executive member Antonia Bance lobbied local government minister John Healey for extra money to cover the cost of concessionary journeys into Oxford, at last month's Labour Party conference.

... not helped by the fact that Oxford City Council also have some ^4,500,000 'frozen' in Icelandic bank accounts?  ::)

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7660741.stm

On the Isles of Scilly, the arrival of free bus passes on 286 doormats was met with indifference and wry amusement ^ as there is no bus service on the islands (link below.)
http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/news/Free-pass-pensioners-bus-sight/article-424058-detail/article.html

The 2007 Concessionary Bus Pass Act compelled the Council of the Isles of Scilly to issue the passes, regardless of whether they were of any use.

The council was also given a hefty grant by the Department of Transport ^ of ^50,000 a year for three years ^ to administer the service.

But so far, with no bus service and limited demand, the council has struggled to use the cash.

The only spending has been a little under ^4,000 to provide 72 pensioners, who do not live on the main island, with a pass which enables them to travel by boat to St Mary's.

Councillors are now considering setting up a community bus scheme to provide a year-round service for residents and which is equipped to help disabled and elderly people get around.

Ongoing problems with the scheme in Gloucestershire:


For the full article, see http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/latestnews/Services-cut-pay-bus-passes/article-467849-detail/article.html

At a Wiltshire Council budget meeting that I attended on Wednesday evening (organised by the Chamber of Commerce), the chief executive, chief financial officer and council leader stated that their spend on public transport had gone up 27%.

when challenged (and not by myself - by other interested parties) that they should also support rail, they stated that they are not allowed to do so (this is a bending of the truth, by the way - they are only not 'allowed' to do so because it would go against their 'no expenditure on rail' policy decision)

Ongoing problems in Oxford, too:


For the full article, see http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/3846708.City_heads_for_financial_woe/

... and in Devon:


See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/7719355.stm

The whole thing is a disaster, as was predicted by many people and councils. But which party would now try and abolish it? Imagine the bad PR.

If they restricted it to over 70s it would mitigate the cost and match provision a bit more closely to need. It is ludicrous that at a time when the government has given people the right to remain in work until 65 if they so desire that they have introduced a benefit for "pensioners" which kicks in 5 years before the state retirement age.

I suspect one problem is that free pass holders think nothing of getting on the bus for one stop (which they could walk in 3 or 4 minutes). The result - they are less fit, and the council have to pay another flat rate fare to the bus company.   

Oxford's proposals to resolve the problem:


See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/7738153.stm