Great Western Coffee Shop

i guess this means no spare powercars now

Rumour that another HST powercar hit an electric cable pole at Hayes & Harlington today too.

Anyone confirm this?

there were reports of an obstruction on the line in that area, and a paddington-plymouth train terminated at Slough, and was restarted from exeter, i initially thought due to the tree incident, but why wouldnt they of terminated it further along such as at reading?

FGW has 118 Class 43s and 53 rakes of MK3s, not all of which are in traffic due to servicing, so if they can't supply enough sets each day out of that lot, even with a number of 43s and this rake needing emergency repairs, one does wonder. And I don't know where they might be getting any more Turbos from, the fleet is flat out already on weekdays and one or two sets at a time are out of traffic for refresh work, so precious little slack there.

I can't remember the source, but someone posted after the Penzance derailment that all power car sets were in traffic, so losing 1 will knock a set out of use.  I guess losing another will not change the number of sets in traffic.

I can't remember the source, but someone posted after the Penzance derailment that all power car sets were in traffic, so losing 1 will knock a set out of use.  I guess losing another will not change the number of sets in traffic.

i wonder if there are any dvt's spare that can work hith hst's, class 67's have a top speed of 120 but doubt they are compatible with the hst mk 3's electrics, plenty of mk2 stock around but can this do 125?

on a slightly different subject STOP MOANING ABOUT TURBOS, would you like pacers insted??

Driver hurt after train hits a tree

Hundreds of rail passengers travelling to Cornwall were left stranded in Wiltshire on Saturday after their train collided with a tree. The incident happened at Crockwood, near West Lavington, at about 2pm. The 13.06 First Great Western train from London Paddington to Penzance was travelling at about 120 mph through Crockwood when it struck a tree that had fallen in front of the train. The train came to a stand still for about two hours while a shunter train pushed the commuter train into Westbury Station at 4mph.

Off-duty station staff returned to work to reopen the cafe to allow the hundreds of stranded passengers to get something to eat and drink.

Passenger Cassandra Nixon, added: ^We certainly felt the tree hit the train. We were very concerned.^

Fellow passenger Marjorie James from Cornwall said she thought the train was going to be derailed.

The train driver, who is from Plymouth, was treated by an ambulance crew at the scene and later taken to the Royal United Hospital in Bath.

... all wheelsets of coaches have severe tread damage

Not sure why all the coaches had severe tread damage - I assume we're talking about flats. I thought each wheelset had its own wheelslide slide protection (WSP), so it would be surprising if they all failed at the same time.  But the WSP's on HST coaches have always been less than perfect - most of us have watched an HST braking sedately into a station and still some of the WSP's are "hissing" as they (wrongly) release the brakes on their axle.  And many coaches have slight flats which don't yet warrant tyre-turning (sorry, re-profiling - HST coaches don't have tyres).

Plymouth train driver lucky to be alive after crash at almost 100mph

A Plymouth train driver was described as "lucky to be alive" after crashing into a fallen tree at nearly 100mph. The driver, who was taken to hospital with cuts, bruises and two fractures to his wrist, was the only person injured in the high-speed smash.

But shocked passengers said they feared the train was about to derail when it hit the tree at a disused station in Wiltshire.

The 13.06 First Great Western service from London Paddington to Penzance was passing the former Lavington Station when the incident happened on Saturday. The train is understood to have been travelling at about 120mph when the driver noticed an obstruction ahead. He was able to slow to about 90mph before the collision, which shattered the front window of the driver's cab.

Paramedics and police were called to the scene, along with Network Rail staff.

After a two-hour standstill, a shunter train pushed the carriages into nearby Westbury Station, where off-duty staff reopened the cafe for the 200 stranded passengers.

A First Great Western spokesman said the driver was taken to the Royal United Hospital in Bath after his "lucky escape".

Network Rail, which said the tree belonged to a local landowner, said it was "taking this matter seriously".

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) has been informed and British Transport Police (BTP) is investigating.

The incident, which happened at about 2.15pm on Saturday, is not being treated as suspicious, said a BTP spokesman.

Dan Moran, district organiser for train drivers' union Aslef, said he understood the impact "could have killed" the driver, but declined to comment further until the RAIB report was released.

i wonder if there are any dvt's spare that can work hith hst's, class 67's have a top speed of 120 but doubt they are compatible with the hst mk 3's electrics, plenty of mk2 stock around but can this do 125?

Not sure about HSTs but on most if not all modern stock WSP is disabled when the brakes are in emergency.

I was under the impression that the "emergency" brake step on an HST didn't involve a train wire but simply opened a hole in the pipe (just like brake valves of old) and dumped all the air out very quickly. But obviously open to correction by those who are more in the know that I am.

When HST's were introduced in 1976 we had many initial problems on the trailer cars (of which the toilet door locks were the most infamous, but that's anoither story...). Only 2, the PA system and the trailer car WSP's, have never been properly resolved. 

From the Wiltshire Times (http://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news/8267034.Driver_hurt_after_train_hits_a_tree/):

I was under the impression that the "emergency" brake step on an HST didn't involve a train wire but simply opened a hole in the pipe (just like brake valves of old) and dumped all the air out very quickly. But obviously open to correction by those who are more in the know that I am.

Cut the journos some slack d_m. 90mph doesn't have quite the 'impact' as 120mph.  ;)

Quoting a knowledgeable source: "The CCB tripped on the leading power car so all the WSPs turned off"

So who was this knowledgeable source?  Reprofiling 32 wheelsets (ie 8 trailers X 4 wheelsets/ vehicle) will cost FGW a fair bit - I'm sure they would like to know exactly why this damage occurred.  And If I was MD of FGW I would like a bit more of an explanation than a "CCB tripped".

I would also hazard a guess FGW will claim costs back from somewhere else probably NR in first instance???

Network Rail, which said the tree belonged to a local landowner, said it was "taking this matter seriously".

Quoting a knowledgeable source: "The CCB tripped on the leading power car so all the WSPs turned off"

So who was this knowledgeable source?  Reprofiling 32 wheelsets (ie 8 trailers X 4 wheelsets/ vehicle) will cost FGW a fair bit - I'm sure they would like to know exactly why this damage occurred.  And If I was MD of FGW I would like a bit more of an explanation than a "CCB tripped".

I would also hazard a guess FGW will claim costs back from somewhere else probably NR in first instance???

Thanks for that insight into the 'gubbins' on a HST power car, Sprog.

I take it 43041 is in St Phillips Marsh at the moment. Will repairs and fitting of a replacement cab be undertaken there or is the PC likely to be removed to another TMD?

Finding another serviceable cab to put on it will probably be more of an issue. From what I gather from elsewhere there is only one cab not attached to a powercar (which is itself damaged) and the moulds used to manufacture the cabs are not currently useable.

there is currently 2 cabs in DML in Plymouth for refurbishment i believe!

Correct. Those two cabs are off / for Grand Central power cars which are currently in Brush for fitting of MTU engines. The cabs are being refurbished under subcontract by Babcock Marine (the former DML).

would this mean there are cabs available spare when these refurbishments are complete, or are they not available being Grand Central cabs?

This situation is not possible, as each vehicle has an individual WSP system and whilst on 'other' forums, it has been claimed that the CCB tripped in the leading power car which (as has already been commented upon) is not surprising considering that the desk has been destroyed inevitably causing electrical shorts, this would have only disabled the WSP system in the leading powercar, not throughout the train.

X

This situation is not possible, as each vehicle has an individual WSP system and whilst on 'other' forums, it has been claimed that the CCB tripped in the leading power car which (as has already been commented upon) is not surprising considering that the desk has been destroyed inevitably causing electrical shorts, this would have only disabled the WSP system in the leading powercar, not throughout the train.

The flats (Burns is probably a more appropriate word) were caused by...how can i put it...a slight operational error when the set was being rescued, but considering the unusual circumstances and the pressure to recover the stricken set, it is understandable.

X

This situation is not possible, as each vehicle has an individual WSP system and whilst on 'other' forums, it has been claimed that the CCB tripped in the leading power car which (as has already been commented upon) is not surprising considering that the desk has been destroyed inevitably causing electrical shorts, this would have only disabled the WSP system in the leading powercar, not throughout the train.

The flats (Burns is probably a more appropriate word) were caused by...how can i put it...a slight operational error when the set was being rescued, but considering the unusual circumstances and the pressure to recover the stricken set, it is understandable.

 Anyway at least the train can be be put right.

 How is the driver, believe he sustained fractures ?

Very wrong on both counts.
1. The Westinghouse WSP racks need to see a feed on train wire 12 from the leading power car, granted the old WSP units were a self contained item, but not now. If you stand next to the trailer cars when the desk is opened you can hear the blow down valves operating as the unit runs through its self test.
No train wire 12 and they turn off. Huge chunk of tree trashing the desk caused CCB to trip, hence no TW12. Simples.
2. The flats occurred due to the above happening.
Nice try, but no prize. At least you got the circuit breaker initials right.

Very wrong on both counts.
1. The Westinghouse WSP racks need to see a feed on train wire 12 from the leading power car, granted the old WSP units were a self contained item, but not now. If you stand next to the trailer cars when the desk is opened you can hear the blow down valves operating as the unit runs through its self test.
No train wire 12 and they turn off. Huge chunk of tree trashing the desk caused CCB to trip, hence no TW12. Simples.
2. The flats occurred due to the above happening.
Nice try, but no prize. At least you got the circuit breaker initials right.

The flat cause was what ive been told from some high-up people at my place who should be pretty informed, but perhaps not.

Even 'high-up' people often fall foul of the rumour mill.  ;)

Sorry you're right,

Welcome to the forum 57604! Or can we call you "Pendennis"?  ;) ;D

I know.

I know.

Scenario 1 - You are running along and the train hits some bulky debris on the line, this knocks out the 36-way jumper and the driver applies the anchors. The debris was dropped by a train ahead of you which also stopped quickly because of a sudden fault. Your train is now in an uncontrolled slide heading towards the back of the stationary train.

Scenario 2 - You are driving along at high speed and you suddenly see the line ahead is blocked; you hit the EMG plunger, Put the MC to OFF, anything that might help in the panic and then take cover. Train Wire 12 is now de-energised, you hit the obstruction at 110 in an uncontrolled slide rather than 75 with all the WSPs behind you doing their job.

. I cannot think of an occasion why a driver would want to do so in all honesty. It wouldnt increase the brake effort so it is to all intents and purposes a somewhat pointless thing to do, particularly if you have been briefed that by doing so you could disable the WSP system on the train.

Panic!?

And, to enable the Inergen Fire bottles to discharge, as instructed on the label next to the Fire Override Plunger on the cab desk!

For those of us less gen'd up on terminology, can we have an explanation for 'Innergen Bottles' and 'F&R'.

Ta.  ;)

I can't remember ever putting the F&R to off as an emergency measure in 21 years of driving. Moving the F&R while the traction unit was moving was at one time a Form 1 offence. I cannot think of an occasion why a driver would want to do so in all honesty. It wouldnt increase the brake effort so it is to all intents and purposes a somewhat pointless thing to do, particularly if you have been briefed that by doing so you could disable the WSP system on the train.

the only time i can see the F&R would be switched off in panic/emergency is if the brake handle came off/broke but i stress extremely unlikely.cannot hink of any other time you could possibly need to do it.

Wonderful....so vein......!

Really, without causing any undue panic, it is abit an oversight really, as the old fail-safe system has been replaced with one which is obviously less so.

So should power to train wire 12 be lost for any reason (i.e. dislodged or disconnected 36-way, CCB trip either end, Master Switch to OFF either by error or unsolicited) you potentially massively extend the braking distance of the train.

Scenario 1 - You are running along and the train hits some bulky debris on the line, this knocks out the 36-way jumper and the driver applies the anchors. The debris was dropped by a train ahead of you which also stopped quickly because of a sudden fault. Your train is now in an uncontrolled slide heading towards the back of the stationary train.

Scenario 2 - You are driving along at high speed and you suddenly see the line ahead is blocked; you hit the EMG plunger, Put the MC to OFF, anything that might help in the panic and then take cover. Train Wire 12 is now de-energised, you hit the obstruction at 110 in an uncontrolled slide rather than 75 with all the WSPs behind you doing their job.

Scenario 3 - You suffer an onboard fire whilst on the move. For the Fire Supression system in a powercar to function, the MC has to be in the OFF position. Granted, the Inergen will not discharge until the set speed falls below 6mph, but upon hearing the firebells, the Driver may instinctivley operate the EMG plunger and shut the desk down. Weeeeeeeeeeeee off we go into a slide....

Just a little bit of a design flaw!!!

And what about the old WSP units that required the train air brake pipe to have pressure in it to turn on? What happened if the driver put the brake into emergency or the brake pipe split? Oh yes.....

43043 is currently in the wheel lathe at spm for tyre turning there is a possibility it will be moved to brush by rail as it costs a fortune to move it by road!!!

Investigation into the collision of a passenger train with a fallen tree at Lavington, Wiltshire, on 10 July 2010

The RAIB is carrying out an investigation into the collision of a passenger train with a fallen tree at Lavington, on the line between Reading and Westbury, on 10 July 2010.

The train involved, 1C84, the 13:06 hrs service from London Paddington to Penzance, was travelling at about 90 mph (145 km/h) when it struck the tree.  The service was operated by First Great Western and was formed by a High Speed Train (HST) set that was conveying around 200 passengers and 4 train crew.

The collision occurred at about 14:09 hrs.  The driver had little warning of the obstruction on the line and could take no action to avert the collision.

The train was not derailed but extensive damage was caused to the front cab due to a large branch entering its interior at the level of the windscreen.  Despite the damage, the driver sustained only minor injuries but was shocked by the event.  None of the other crew members or passengers were injured.

Train 1C84 was assisted forward to Westbury by a freight locomotive and arrived there at 19:03 hrs where the passengers were detrained.

To date, there is no evidence that the condition of the railway infrastructure, signalling, rolling stock or driving of the train contributed to the collision.

The RAIB^s investigation is independent of any investigations by the safety authority.

The RAIB will publish a report, including any recommendations to improve safety, at the conclusion of its investigation.  This report will be available on the RAIB website.

Was it really 6 hours between the incident and the passengers being de-trained at Westbury?  :o

I made sure of a couple of pints from the (un)kind controller who volunteered me for this task.