Great Western Coffee Shop

See link below.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=1786

Any idea what the codes mean? ??? Such as:1,+ and triple dots. Is one of them no buffet car?  ???

The Cross-Bristol timetables have not been put on yet!  These are the ones I am keen to see, as I guess are most of the members here?

1 - also conveys 1st class accomodation.
dots and symbols will be to inform the graphic designer what symbols to include on the final printed version such as restaurant services, dates operated etc.

Whilst writing...its pretty much spot the difference with the timetables uploaded so far to the current operating timetable. We await the Cardiff-Portsmouth/Weymouth Bristol services timetable where they main changes will appear on FGW services this December tt change. Hopefully we wont have to wait too long.

Spot on Paul, that is the timetable that is going to have the most changes to it.

I note from the London-Hereford one, that the section between Worcester and Great Malvern features some through trains to/from Brighton and Weymouth which tends to clarify the cross-Bristol axis changes. 

I do not think 1 means first class as the 06.47 BTM-PNZ is listed with a 1 in the London-West of England services.(page 2 train 2c43) I do not imagine that train having first class. :D

Could be an error OR FGW are operating this service with an HST which they are planning to do in some cases to increase capacity on busy commuter services with the return journey operating a PNZ-PAD IC service.

The return operates to Exmouth so i don't think it will be HST. But the return is also listed with a 1. A bit weird. I hope it is a HST though as the PNZ-EXM is always packed because it connects to London.

Actually, those 'codes' have been written to the PDF using the Symbol font when they normally use a font called BRFACE3. I suspect they can't embed the proper font either for copyright reasons or (because this is FGW) they don't know what they're doing.

Rough set of translations:

• ] is the diamond 'Reservations available' symbol
• E (backwards) is 'Reservations Compulsory'
• + is the cup of tea in a saucer
• ( is a knife and fork
• | is a trolley
• Three dots is a knife and fork with a box around it

I am slightly disturbed at the lack of services on the Newquay-Par line and the timings.  Hmm.

Well if I am reading this correctly, there are going to be trolleys on many London-Swansea services which is not good, and not what we were expecting!  The London - Cardiff shorter runs were supposed to be trolleys with full buffets being kept on the Swansea services.  This really is not good!  

I stand corrected on the one not actually being a one. Upon enlarging the pdf what looks like a '1' now appears as a ] which as you say is for reservations as it appears on the reservations line which makes sense!  :) Apologies to anyone for the confusion there.

Shame that BRFACE3 doesnt work on pdf. It never did when FGW used to put pdfs of their tt alterations booklets online either. There was a reason for this but I cant remember what it was, probably as you say a license issue.

No different to every winter timetable on the Newquay branch since BR cut the service to four trains per day in 1987!

I have looked at some of the draft timetables and in particular the Looe branch makes for interesting perusal in particular.

With the exception of 3 services all other down services are scheduled to cover the route in 29 minutes, Liskeard depart to Looe arrive. The 3 that don't are two that are scheduled to call at Coombe which are scheudled for a 30 minute journey time and the other 1 is one that is scheduled for no stops, except of course the required stop and reversal at Coombe Junction, and this service covers the journey in 28 minutes. I fail to see why every service on this line cannot be timetabled to stop at every halt on the line as in my opinion to do this would cause no pathing problems whatsover when you consider the following summary based on the draft timetable.

All services that cover the route in 29 minutes are scheduled to cover the section from Sandplace to Looe, departure to arrival, in 9 minutes. These are the services which do not call at Coombe. The two that call at Coombe are scheduled 7 minutes for the same section???. If FGW acknowledged this anomoly then a stop at Coombe could  be added to all services, including the non-stopper which could additionally call at all other stations on the line as well. Then there is the sectional timings between St. Keyne and Causeland and Causeland and Sandplace. Those stopping at Coombe have sectional timings of 3 and 4 minutes respectively whereas those that call at all the halts except Coombe have the sectional timings of 4 and 3 minutes ???.

Alternatively why dont FGW publish a timetable where all halts, with the exception of Coombe be made request stops and the Coombe platform be made the reversal point for the branch with Network Rail installing a cabinet on the platform at Coombe which would be no bigger than a telephone box from which a crew member would operate an electrically operated point at Coombe Junction. This point could alternatively be remotely operated from Liskeard box or indeed with electronics as they are today to be fully automatic with an override in Liskeard signal box which would be used on the occasions that a cement train operates to Moorswater.

Thats the down trains, the up trains similarly tell a story of inconsistencies in running times. Up trains not calling at Coombe have a journey time of 26 minutes whereas those that call at Coombe still command a 30 minute running time whereas the 1 'non-stop' service has an end to end journey time of 24 minutes. I would also question whether these up timings also take in consideration the climb up to Liskeard from Coombe Junction. Really, in my opinion, it wants the time and motion people on this with their stop watches and a complete review of the point to point timings on this branch and I suspect this would be the case with some other branch lines too.

I think every service should stop at all stations aswell, Coombe however is truely a pointless station, it's just as quick to walk from there to Liskeard if you live in the three houses in the stations catchment area!

The non-stop train makes a connection at Liskeard before it heads down to Looe with a westbound mainline train.  It has 1 minute to turn around at Looe, and I suspect it connects with an Arriva Cross Country train eastbound when it gets back to Liskeard.  Allowing stops at the halts could jeapordise such a connection.

Internal ("working") timetables that I've seen include allowances called "recovery time" within their journeys, which is not necessarily evenly spread but rather is allocated to a part of the journey where a train can be held back for a few minutes to wait for the timetable if it was alraedy running to time.  We don't see the recovery allowances in the Looe service, but if we did they would probably make things a lot clearer.

Final note on recovery allowances - is it my imagination, or do such allowances tend to congregate between the last intermediate stop of a train and its final terminus?  And if they do, would that be for operational reasons, or to help more trains show up as "arrived on time" in the statistics.  One comes to realise just how much slack/recovery is in some schedules when you see a train that started a 2 hour journey 16 minutes late but arrived at the end on time - as I saw on a Westbury to Cheltenham via Swindon the other day.

Another quote from the FGW December 2007 Timetable Page :

"The Barnstaple branch line timetable will be available next week."

Why the wait?

North Devon Rail Users Group AGM next Friday. We're expecting an announcement ;)

Extra minutes on the end of a schedule has been common for years. Check out Penzance to St.Erth timings compared with St.Erth to Penzance, especially on the longer distance services. As the lateness of a service is measured just at its destination its just a scam to get more services arriving within 10 minutes late if you ask me!!

As for Coombe on the Looe branch.... Why? Must be the least used station in the south west totally pointless.....

Hope it goes your way .... I know that the Bristol folks are disappointed that the 40 minute service which was to be provided from December on the Severn Beach line has evaporated. We're disappointed on the TransWilts line that in spite of all the hard work and draft timetables showing 3 extra trains each way daily, they won't be provided after all according to the latest information I have at the moment.

"Fingers crossed" for you on the Tarka line.  "Third line lucky"?

I must admit that I havent found a station in the area that was used less than Coombe in the last couple of years. Here are the figures :


Andrew Seedhouse (Government Office Of The South West) once exaggerated this by saying that nobody had used Coombe in the last 6 years. This greatly amused my mother (a Looe Valley Line fan) who makes a point of visiting each station on the branch at least once a year.

Grahame, I suspect that by your comments that you have never travelled the Looe Line. In my opinion there is no need for any recovery time on this short route whatsoever as the line is almost completely isolated from the rail network.

Once the unit arrives at Liskeard in a morning, the unit would be signalled into the yard and the signalman would then unhook the line staff / token from the nail its hanging on in his signal box and hand it to the guard / conductor. The unit then runs through the yard and onto the branch where it stops. The guard / conductor uses the token to unlock the ground frame and sets the point for the Liskeard platform which is at right angles to the main line platforms. Normally it would not be neccessary to operate this point again until the last journey of the day when the unit is off to the depot for the night.
The only other point at Coombe Junction is also operated using this token. There is no signalling on the line whatsoever.

The only other traffic on this line may be the occasional cement traffic to Moorswater which when run operates during the hours of darkness when there is no passenger services on the line but this traffic is now almost extints if not extinct already.

My guess is you will have a more frequent service in return for having the 142s operating on your line. A fair trade?

Although the Looe line runs in isolation, if it's held a few minutes to connect with a late running service on the main line then it will indeed arrive at Looe late, and thus start it's return journey late. Having travelled on the branch the summer before last (when the train was packed), nobody used any of the intervening stations, and looking at an O/S map it's hardly surprising. So I guess the timetabling is designed to ensure that the 99% of passengers using it (ie to/from Looe) get the best service and connections by introducing an element of robustness.

Mind you, it was better when it was an hourly service, though the timings were incredibly tight, particularly when the trains were packed out, given the loading and unloading times.

I've had a flick through the Bristol one- some improvements to note such as direct Oldfield Park/Keynsham to Brighton services again, hourly services to both these stations, (cheer!) and unless my eyes deceive me, all Portsmouth-Cardiff services are stopping at Bradford-on-Avon, something I thought would never happen.

A real shame about Melksham though, we've seen plenty of other improvements- why not one of the most needed services in the region. And it appears there are no services to Mottisfont & Dunbridge, Dean, or Pilning on this timetable.

A fair trade? That rather depends how many extra services there are; and since half-hourly isn't possible, the answer is no :'(

Bradford-on-Avon, yes, good news.It's a town that's just half the size of Melksham and now has two services each way per hour (as opposed to two each way per DAY) .... talk of unbalanced treatment.  And, yes, Melksham and the TransWilts do need services.

You ask "Why Not?".   I'm not 100% certain - FOI has shown us all the plans but I'm not clear as to why they were dropped.  If I had cynicalitis this morning, I might take Andrew Seedhouse from GOSW words and describe the situation as the powers that be "managing expectitions" by waving a carrot at us and only pulling it away when it's too late for us to call "foul".   Persoanlly, I think the jury's out on that - I simply don't know.    But there is a pattern forming.   Great hopes came to nowt before the frachise was let in 2005.   Hopes that FGW would do something as a result of the consultation inputs in 2006 resulted in the draft timetables being changed for the worse, and now this debacle in 2007.  "Be patient - we'll do something for December 2008" is now the story - "these things take time and you can't expect it overnight".

Mottisfornt and Dean are now servered by a (near) hourly SWT service, and the draft timetables are purely for FGW.  So Salisbury - Southampton looks thin when, in fact, there's a lot more services there.  In particular, the FGW trains that terminate at Southampton are running shortly before / after SWT trains that call at Mottisfont and Dean in each case.

The drafts are Monday to Friday only, so unless there was an improvement at Pilning I would not expect to see any services shown.  IMHO it's a shame they don't publish / consult on weekend and Sunday services, especially as Sunday evening is the busiest time of the week for long distance travel.

Anyone noticed the 90 minute gap in services from / to Bridgwater and Highbridge & Burnham (between the 0836 and 1007 departures from Taunton and the 0821 and 1003 Taunton arrivals) ?

Here is the view from I Hate First Great Western (thanks for the plug , Helen.)
http://ihatefirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2007/10/merry-christmas-from-first-great.html

The peak Keynsham HST services arent shown either.

Here is the view from Severn Tunnel Action Group :

FGW have finally put the draft timetable for our route on line, summary as follows

Mondays to Fridays

Nothing lost, 4 gained. There are a few changes to timing, but nothing to be concerned over.

First the 4 extra trains

0616 to Cardiff Central (from Bristol T.M.)
2216 to Cardiff Central (from Portsmouth Harbour)
1655 to Portsmouth Harbour (from Cardiff Central)
2332 to Bristol Temple Meads (from Cardiff Central)

The main change is our off peak stopping services now start/terminate at Taunton or Weston so apart from the 0655 and 0755 the only through services to Bath Spa are 1225 and 2124, likewise from Bath Spa the only through services are the 0715, 1715 and 1815 arrivals at STJ.

The 1225 from STJ still goes to Brighton but the 1700 return from Brighton now reverses at BTM and goes to Cheltenham Spa with a change at BTM into a Taunton Cardiff service.

Looking to the future 2008 December timetable the current Virgin Voyager service at 0725 and 1946 will in future go to/from Manchester Piccadilly as opposed to Newcastle.

When the weekend times become available we will have a look at those and get back to you all.

If any of these changes is likely to cause you considerable inconvenience, then please let us know. You can do this by e-mailing us at: info@saveseverntunnel.co.uk. Alternatively you can write to us care of Michelle in the ticket office.

Weston MP John Penrose has hailed the new timetable as "a great result" (link below.)
http://thisissomerset.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=147472&command=displayContent&sourceNode=242195&contentPK=18634609&folderPk=113662&pNodeId=251478

Dunno who looked at the Timetable, but the 12.25 from STJ is a Taunton, the Brighton is from Malvern

Heres one tips if you like your 158's to commute on AM/PM but don;t like Cardiff-Pompey

The 09.00 Brighton - Great Malvern (which for some reason doesn't stop at Malvern Link) forms a Weymouth, 16.4X from Bristol TM, and the 20.01 back, so should be a 158 turn

The 10.43 Great Malvern - Brighton is formed from the 07.23 Warminster - Great Malvern, so this should be 158.

Still dont see the point in this, Cardiff already has an hourly service to Manc picadilly

And to Birmingham come to think of it so why run it unless it was going to Newcastle/Edinburgh ???

i replied exactly about this during the current consultation period, i.e. cardiff - newcastle direct lost instead of cardiff - manc.  big disappointment as far as south wales passengers are concerned.  we have always had at least ONE direct service a day.  this was two hourly when princess started, and even with extensions to edinburgh and swansea.

got a reply back from AXC tonight.  apparently they say the routing of the cardiff service to manchester is a DFT dictate!  yes we knew that, so what was the point in consulting customers?!

 :(

I think it's historic. It has to run at that time ever since Wessex trains cut out a morning service that ran around the same time. So it's path between Cardiff and Bristol is fairly fixed. Then it becomes a departure from Bristol that is becoming a regular hourly Manchester slot. Really it's only serving local passengers for the first leg.

Another oddity of the train is that you can get off at Patchway, stroll to Parkway and still have time for a cup of tea before getting back on the same service.