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Journey by Journey => To Oxford, Didcot and Reading from West => Topic started by: grahame on August 22, 2010, 09:10:34



Title: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: grahame on August 22, 2010, 09:10:34
1.  The train to Oxford and beyond sits quietly awaiting further passengers at Didcot Parkway

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/didcot_dance_1.jpg)

2. The HST from Bristol (conveying, in this instance a double load because the previous one had been cancelled) approaches from the Swindon direction ... and can it be that the Oxford train is moving?

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/didcot_dance_2.jpg)

3.  Yes it can ... as the Bristol and Bath rolls in on one side of the platform, the Oxford train's out of the station and conveying a lot of empty seats (and some full ones too) up to Radley and Oxford

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/didcot_dance_3.jpg)

Picture taken at about half past ten yesterday morning.

Personal interest statement - I have to travel up to Oxford from time to time, and it's utterly frustrating to be standing at the door, waiting to get out as we pull into Didcot to see the onward train pulling out of the station.  Whether this particular one's an official connection or not I don't know - but whether or not it is, the psychological effect on passengers of this sort of thing can't be positive.

The last few years has done wonders for some services - such as Oxford to Bicester.  But other significant passenger flows - such as Swindon to Oxford and West Wiltshire to Swindon - have been treated (and continue to be treated) with what appears to be a "don't really care / profit first, travelling customers second" attitude.   

I don't really mind who provides a good, practical service at a sensible price.  As the incumbent in the area, there's logic to the First group, in the form of First Great Western, sorting out the services - avoiding the "Didcot Dance" and running a 153 up and down to the TransWilts so that there are realist journey opportunities that we all know would be used.   But then ... there's also logic in running a couple of 158 / 159 units from Stagecoach's Salisbury depot to Oxford every couple of hours.   And the proposals from the Go! Co-operative are very carefully thought out, with - as far as I can tell - potential problems having been considered and resolved as far as practical ahead of time. 

The First franchise is halfway through ... and there are (natural) indicators that the company is becoming more concerned at maximising the gap between revenue and expenditure, rather than spending money on developing revenue flows which will help more in the next franchise term, or giving equipment more that shorter term treatments.  "Enough for next 5 years" rather than "what's good for the next 15".  That's probably why the annual price tag for (for example) a proper TransWilts service has risen 12 fold in 5 years, as they want to get back any expenditure even before the service has built up to a good usage level - doesn't say much about their confidence in winning the franchise renewal to me!

Edit to add conclusion


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2010, 12:02:38
I know what you mean, Graham - and I've commented on it before.

Trouble is, the current timetable doesn't connect well with services from Bristol at all.  On weekdays and Saturday's the Oxford's usually depart Didcot at xx:25 and xx:55 and the Bristol's usually arrive at xx:28, though having left Swindon at xx:10 and with a running time of 15 minutes then often arrive (as your pictures suggest) as the Oxford train is pulling out of the platform.  It is swings-and-roundabouts though as the Swansea/Cardiff's arrive Didcot at xx:15 and xx:46 so providing an excellent connection.

So, quite often they are not a booked connection, but as you say, the impression is dreadful when you see an Oxford train pulling out and know you have a 30-minute wait for the next one.  Some drivers will wait for a few seconds in other cases (say the xx:15 rolls in 10 minutes late and people are coming across for the xx:25), but given that Didcot is self-dispatch for Turbo trains they're hesitant to wait for too long unless the platform staff tell them too, or they find a delay explanation form waiting for them when they get to Oxford.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: willc on August 22, 2010, 14:56:09
Especially when the structure of the timetable means that a fast from Paddington to Oxford or the Cotswold Line is breathing down the neck of the stopper on the approach to Oxford, so the service from Didcot isn't the only thing that is delayed, as the fast cannot reach the platform until the Turbo has been walked through by a member of the Oxford dispatch staff to check it is empty and then sent on its way into the sidings.

The situation at Didcot is not ideal and it seems odd that South Wales gets a better connection than Bristol but this state of affairs will probably continue for some time until Reading rebuilding and Crossrail, allows major timetable restructuring.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2010, 23:53:27
It's an area of the timetable which doesn't particularly sit well at the moment.  Local trains sitting at Didcot for between 5 and 10 minutes all the while whilst XC services overtake them via the avoider, before departing towards Oxford just before a train from Bristol arrives.  Heading north from Didcot isn't great as a result as the stopper arrives at Oxford just after the XC service has departed to Manchester or Newcastle leaving a 25 minute wait for the next service. 

Perhaps all of the xx:50 trains from Paddington to Oxford should stop at Didcot Parkway (around the xx:38 mark) as they offer better connections from the Bristol trains and also at Oxford for passengers heading north?  At the moment the only ones that do are the 10:50, 12:50 and 14:50, as in the other hours the xx:48's to Cheltenham stop at Didcot - not much use for passengers from Didcot towards Oxford though!


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on August 23, 2010, 01:32:26
exmouth connections at st david's are like it


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: grahame on August 23, 2010, 08:31:54
Perhaps all of the xx:50 trains from Paddington to Oxford should stop at Didcot Parkway (around the xx:38 mark) as they offer better connections from the Bristol trains and also at Oxford for passengers heading north?  At the moment the only ones that do are the 10:50, 12:50 and 14:50, as in the other hours the xx:48's to Cheltenham stop at Didcot - not much use for passengers from Didcot towards Oxford though!

Now there is a good idea ... and indeed it would make the service more "Clockface" too - passengers having an hourly service with good connections at Didcot from Chippenham / Bath / Bristol.

P.S. ... remind me why "The Cheltenham" doesn't run clockface / hourly during the day ...  ;) ... wouldn't that boost traffic for the Stroud Valley, and free up a couple of units which currently have quite low utilisation for higher utilisation jobs elsewhere.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: fatcontroller on August 23, 2010, 11:15:45
Now there is a good idea ... and indeed it would make the service more "Clockface" too - passengers having an hourly service with good connections at Didcot from Chippenham / Bath / Bristol.

P.S. ... remind me why "The Cheltenham" doesn't run clockface / hourly during the day ...  ;) ... wouldn't that boost traffic for the Stroud Valley, and free up a couple of units which currently have quite low utilisation for higher utilisation jobs elsewhere.

Where do you think the passengers for the poorly utilised units come from?
They connect out of South Wales services.

FGW would only then get slated for running two HST's 3-minutes behind each other all the way to Swindon, when, "They could find a unit to run up and down the Branch connecting with South Wales services at Swindon, thus saving themselves an HST or two!"

Note from moderator: Edited to tidy up quote. bignosemac


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: Super Guard on August 23, 2010, 13:56:11
exmouth connections at st david's are like it

What a load of tosh, fgw services up from Plymouth connect with :18ish past the hours to Exmouth giving about 15mins wait, and the only down-London service that just misses an Exmouth connection is the 16:22PNZ service... All the others have about 10minutes to wait.

As has been discussed before, it just isn't possible to mess around with the Exmouth timetable with the single lines, and clashes with mainline services.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: JayMac on August 23, 2010, 14:26:56
Cut relex109 a bit of slack, DG.

Not a load of tosh at all. FGW aren't the only show in town at Exeter St Davids. Through most of the day CrossCountry in either direction just miss viable or official connections for Exmouth, leaving a near 1/2 hour wait.

 



Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: Super Guard on August 23, 2010, 15:19:28
OK, my apologies, a bit of a poor choice of words.

I was focussing on FGW services as the original topic was regarding the poor timetabling of FGW services in the Didcot area.

I don't know how much change XC could implement in the timetable (my general opinion is they don't care, but my dealings with them are pretty poor so my opinion of them is on the same level), however with a 6 minute minimum connection time at EXD, it would take a good 10 minute change to make better connections viable with XC services.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: grahame on August 23, 2010, 21:34:14
FGW would only then get slated for running two HST's 3-minutes behind each other all the way to Swindon ...

Indeed ... but are you suggesting they don't / shouldn't get slated for doing this once every 2 hours anyway?   It could be argued that the current situation on that is the worst of both world.   It's not an hourly, clockface, through service.  It duplicates a train at a three minute headway all the way to Swindon every 2 hours.   It leaves a 15x twiddling its thumbs wheels at Swindon for an hour ...

Oh - I can find a good alternative.

Every 2 hours - Cheltenham - Gloucester - Stroud - Swindon - Didcot - Reading - London
Every 2 hours - Cheltenham - Gloucester - Stroud - Swindon - all stations to Westbury and Salisbury


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: eightf48544 on August 23, 2010, 21:59:10
Interesting thoughts on service pattern on Golden Valley.

It's very simailar to DBs mix of IC/ICE and RE trains. IC/ICE every 2 hours RE alternate 2 hours.  The RE stopping more often. Givng an hourly service overall.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: Btline on August 23, 2010, 22:07:00
If a 15X unit does wait at Swindon for an hour, it is scandalous that it does't run to at least Westbury and back!


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: grahame on August 23, 2010, 23:01:38
If a 15X unit does wait at Swindon for an hour, it is scandalous that it does't run to at least Westbury and back!

Swindon sits:

10:43 to 11:54
12:43 to 13:54
14:43 to 15:54
16:43 to 17:54

But then put in a Westbury run ...

10:45 - 11:00 - 11:10 - 11:20 - 11:25
11:35 - 11:40 - 11:50 - 12:00 - 12:15

... and you'll see you can't get beyond Melksham - you would miss the critical leg to Trowbridge that's vital to the economic case.

Now ... if you were to retime the northbound Stroud Valley service to the opposite half hour, that would give you a 12:24 on to Cheltenham, arriving there at 13:33 and heading south again on its original timing at 13:40.   The :48 off Paddington for Cheltenham trains would become a :18 (not sure how that would go down!) and you might have single line issues up the Stroud Valley.

If you "swap over" the Swindon unit with something on layover at Westbury, you'll need something that's available for the right 50 minutes from Westbury (passing each other at Chippenham), with enough slack to allow the incoming train ex Swindon to have a short break before its next duty.   That's where this proposal fails in at least one of the four scenarios - the time that the TOC has specified must be allowed for robustness on a train that's going to weave its way back through the Bristol area is insufficient.   I would be tempted to say "turn at Trowbridge then", but it turns out that's not a well received suggested either, as the train will have to stop there blocking the lines for too long, and will break the every 30 minute pattern from Westbury to Bristol.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: willc on August 24, 2010, 00:54:02
Quote
Quote from: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2010, 11:53:27 PM
Perhaps all of the xx:50 trains from Paddington to Oxford should stop at Didcot Parkway (around the xx:38 mark) as they offer better connections from the Bristol trains and also at Oxford for passengers heading north?  At the moment the only ones that do are the 10:50, 12:50 and 14:50, as in the other hours the xx:48's to Cheltenham stop at Didcot - not much use for passengers from Didcot towards Oxford though!

Now there is a good idea ... and indeed it would make the service more "Clockface" too - passengers having an hourly service with good connections at Didcot from Chippenham / Bath / Bristol.

And put another five minutes into Oxford/Cotswold not very 'fast' already services? No thanks. Never mind what it would do to pathing on the Cotswold Line. And where would you fit Didcot passengers on the 15.51 anyway?


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: grahame on August 24, 2010, 06:26:09
And where would you fit Didcot passengers on the 15.51 anyway?

Are you telling us that the 15:51 is so severely overcrowded when it's running with the scheduled 8 carriages that there wouldn't be room for the South West to Oxford traffic to join it, or are you tacitly accepting that it's going to be predominantly a turbo working into the foreseeable future?

If it's any comfort to you, Will, I would be suprised to see anything changed to eliminate the regular 28 minutes wait for "connection" on the 30 minute services.   They say "where there's a will, there's a way"; we haven't seen a way being found, so I would conclude there's no will.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: willc on August 24, 2010, 08:33:47
Yes. It is a very busy train with its current calling pattern, even with an HST, see posts on the subject of the 15.51 from a number of people other than me.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: grahame on August 24, 2010, 11:10:16
Yes. It is a very busy train with its current calling pattern, even with an HST, see posts on the subject of the 15.51 from a number of people other than me.

"Back of fag packet" calculation ... if it's overcrowded as a 125, then when it's a Turbo there would be over 180 people per carriage - approaching 200% loading.  Goodness - hadn't realised it was that bad ... has anyone taken any pictures?

This is a bit academic, mind ... as noted further up the thread, I'm not exactly holding my breath in thinking that the Didcot Dance will end any time soon.  Roll on a few direct trains from Chippenham and beyond to Oxford and beyond  ;)


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: Mookiemoo on August 24, 2010, 11:35:39
Thing is though  - people who know check out the details and get an alternate service if they see a turbo - I for one would not get the 1551 as a turbo  - I'd rather sit int the sloe bar/three guineas/where ever for a couple of hours


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 24, 2010, 11:41:23
Quote
Quote from: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2010, 11:53:27 PM
Perhaps all of the xx:50 trains from Paddington to Oxford should stop at Didcot Parkway (around the xx:38 mark) as they offer better connections from the Bristol trains and also at Oxford for passengers heading north?  At the moment the only ones that do are the 10:50, 12:50 and 14:50, as in the other hours the xx:48's to Cheltenham stop at Didcot - not much use for passengers from Didcot towards Oxford though!

Now there is a good idea ... and indeed it would make the service more "Clockface" too - passengers having an hourly service with good connections at Didcot from Chippenham / Bath / Bristol.

And put another five minutes into Oxford/Cotswold not very 'fast' already services? No thanks. Never mind what it would do to pathing on the Cotswold Line. And where would you fit Didcot passengers on the 15.51 anyway?

The added time on those services that currently do call at Didcot (10:50, 12:50 and 14:50) is two minutes, not five - despite them being 90mph Turbos.  Slack probably added to the fast trains as they are often catch up with the stopper at Oxford and have to wait a platform.  There's no problem with pathing of terminating services at Oxford (even if a HST) as the next train isn't due into platform two until around 15 minutes afterwards. 

Stopping Oxford to Paddington services at Didcot is nothing new of course, and as long as the journey is done in an hour then, off-peak additional calls to help the situation Graham and myself are describing would in my opinion be a positive thing. 

The Cotswold Line would not be affected at all - all Cotswold Line trains depart around the xx:21 mark, save for the 06:48 (which already calls there) and the 15:51 and 17:50, which I would agree, an exception should be made.

It's a situation that could only be improved in the 'down' direction however, as with an xx:12 departure from Didcot towards Bristol you're stuck with a 20 minute wait whatever.  Again, connections into the South Wales services are much better.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: smokey on August 24, 2010, 19:05:27
When it comes to Connections I always had a feeling that BR wrote the Penzance-Paddington Service around the Liskeard-Looe service, connections from London to Looe and V/versa always seemed very good.

A Knock-on from the 1960's? After Barabra Castle stood up in Parliment and Saved the Looe (& St Ives) line just 2 weeks before closure. Shame she announced the closure of the Bodmin Road-Bodmin General, Wadebridge and Padstow line in the same speech.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on August 24, 2010, 20:03:56
ok just to clarify... i wasn't suggesting that fgw was any way at fault and timings from london and plymouth are fine..... but what if your coming from bristol or beyond, st davids to exmouth junction is a bottle neck for which none of the toc's can be blamed, well i like blaming cross country :-) i guess that frequent 5 min delay which causes you to run over the footbridge and watch your pacer bounce away, i understand why fgw cant hold the service i don't have any issues with that infact i don't want them to, its just frustrating


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: willc on August 24, 2010, 22:01:21
Quote
the 15:51 and 17:50, which I would agree, an exception should be made.

Which doesn't really fit in with the idea of creating an easily understood timetable that repeats for as much of the day as possible, which was always my understanding of the concept behind the December 2006 timetable change.

Yes, this situation at Didcot isn't great but I think pretty much everyone posting here could nominate something from their neck of the woods that is more of a problem to more people than this one.

Quote
"Back of fag packet" calculation ... if it's overcrowded as a 125, then when it's a Turbo there would be over 180 people per carriage - approaching 200% loading.  Goodness - hadn't realised it was that bad ... has anyone taken any pictures?

Probably not quite that grim, as anyone bound for Slough and Reading from Paddington will swiftly absent themselves from the scene in search of an alternative (eg Reading has 15.45, 15.48 and 16.00 HSTs as well) once they see what's going on but still likely to be well over 300 packed on, with it only really starting to thin out past Charlbury and usually still plenty on board until Kingham and Moreton-in-Marsh, whatever train is used.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 25, 2010, 02:13:17
Which doesn't really fit in with the idea of creating an easily understood timetable that repeats for as much of the day as possible, which was always my understanding of the concept behind the December 2006 timetable change.

You could easily have an hourly additional service from 08:38 up until 15:38 catering better for many more people.  I would say that was more easy to understand than the current offering every other hour at 11:38, 13:38, 15:38, and 17:37?  Perhaps more important would be having them on a Saturday as they could pretty much run all day.

Yes, this situation at Didcot isn't great but I think pretty much everyone posting here could nominate something from their neck of the woods that is more of a problem to more people than this one.

Quite possible.  Though Graham highlighted the problem and I suggested a possible remedy - which, unlike most of those other larger problems, results in no pathing issues and an improved service for two flows of people all for the loss of two minutes of journey time on the more lightly loaded of the twice-hourly Paddington to Oxford services.


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: willc on August 25, 2010, 22:34:34
Fair enough, though I expect there isn't going to be much enthusiasm for doing anything much to timetables with Reading remodelling looming on the horizon.

And maybe someone in FGW knows something about a healthy passenger flow between South Wales and Oxford that isn't obvious to the rest of us, hence the current arrangement?


Title: Re: The Didcot Dance - still happening!
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 26, 2010, 01:43:08
You're probably right, and until such time the 'Didcot Dance' will mean journeys from central Bristol, Bath and Chippenham to Oxford, Banbury and further north will often be a bit of a slow Waltz!



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