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Not sure if this is in the right thread but i couldn't really find another topic for this.

I read on UK railforums and have found the following link:

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/content/friday-5-november-important-travel-news

Have chiltern  run to  or via Didcot  Parkway before?

Yes. They used to couple up their trains to Thames Trains Turbos to and from Paddington during engineering work but the advent of Adelantes and HSTs on the Oxford fasts put paid to that.

Expect the busier trains between Didcot and London to be even worse than normal - I gather a few additional stops at Didcot might be in the offing?

The trains will not be calling at Oxford I understand, so will be non-stop from Banbury to Didcot Parkway.  Chiltern drivers have, for the past few weeks, been learning the route.

Interesting that passengers from Bicester North to London are being told to get a bus to Aylesbury VP, and no mention of the FGW service to Oxford for onward connections is mentioned as another alternative.  That's certainly the way I'd be going if there was a train to suit - I wonder how many others will work it out?

A three-day possession required to allow the works to re-instate the through line at Princes Risborough to take place presumably?

Direct Gov Journey planner gives 46 minutes direct bus between Bicester North and Aylesbury Vale. 28 minutes by car.

Yeah, so 45 mins by Bus (TBC), connection time and then about 68 minutes from there.  Compared with 25 mins to Oxford, connection time and just under an hour to Paddington with no buses.  The first train of the day at 06:23 via Oxford would get people to Paddington for 07:59.  At least Bicester Town's new car park might be utilised a little more than usual!

Just spotted on one of the Chiltern pages that it is indeed to install the through line at Princes Risborough.

Link below to Geoff Plumb's site HST at Princes Risborough

http://geoff-plumb.fotopic.net/p67685920.html (http://geoff-plumb.fotopic.net/p67685920.html)

Chiltern seems to have created a new spelling for advised, or more likely the person was in a rush to type the amendment out.

But the Bicester-Oxford service isn't really a lot of use if you're commuting to London, other than the 06.23, though off-peak it looks more attractive. And isn't Islip's platform two-car only anyway, which would mean FGW can't add extra seats by using a three-car 165? It would be a bit of a squeeze on the 07.57 from Bicester if lots of Chiltern refugees turned up...

The 'go to Aylesbury' advice is also consistent with the alternative routing used for Bicester and Haddenham & Thame during most of the weekend closures recently.

Not that it's easy to predict what people will do anyway.  While Banbury passengers will all have to go via Didcot, I suspect the Warwickshire contingent will be driving over to Birmingham International, Coventry or Rugby (not far short of 750 parking spaces there and the newish relief road makes access to the station from the west much easier) for the day, even if they do have to shell out for a ticket.

Well, we'll have to wait and see how an 06:23 departure with an 07:59 arrival compares with the advertised bus journey then.  I can't see it being any slower, and no horrible bus.  That train usually runs with about 15-20 people on board, so plenty of room for another 150 or so - even if some people do have to stand for 25 minutes.  I can't see any more space than that needed, as I'm sure a few of the regulars will take the day off, and others of course will choose the advertised route, or just drive to Aylesbury Vale Parkway.  My point is that a perfectly reasonable, and in many ways better, alternative is being ignored.

The 07:57 would, as you say, be a bit of a squeeze, but considering it would provide a post commuter arrival time at Paddington it would no doubt not draw so many of the crowds and could easily handle another 50 or so passengers on a typical morning.

Off peak services generally connect well offering a 90-minute journey time on most trains - all of which have plenty of capacity - and the returning commuter has a choice from Paddington of either the 18:22 arriving at 19:55, or the 19:50 arriving at 21:25 - again, I can't see a Marylebone-Aylesbury-Bicester route getting close to those times.

You could of course be blissfully unaware of any changes to the normal timetable, as all the journey planners are still showing the normal timetable!  :(

I'm not saying no-one will use the 06.23, though all the information given by Chiltern suggests that they and FGW don't want people to use the Bicester Town route (and they certainly haven't suggested the possibility during recent weekend blockades) - note the wording used in the entry for Banbury on the Chiltern website - "Valid Chiltern Railways tickets will be accepted on First Great Western services in both directions between Banbury, Didcot Parkway and London Paddington." There is nothing similar under Bicester, which suggests FGW will not be taking Chiltern tickets on the branch that day

And the 06.23 is the only practical commuter service into London via Oxford - compared with nine trains from Bicester North after 6.15am that give a Marylebone arrival before 9am on a normal weekday. It's an easy enough drive to Aylesbury Parkway, which is just off the A41 north of the town, so I'm sure most will just point their cars in that direction for the day, rather than Bicester North.

Regarding ticket validity, no they don't, which is a shame in my point of view.  Not everyone has a car to point somewhere else.  Though, does anyone know if a Bicester North to London Terminals season ticket, route 'Any Permitted' (though only routing option available on seasons I think?), is valid from Bicester Town via Oxford?

Bicester North and Bicester Town share exactly the same routeing points in the National Rail Routeing Guide. However, I fear that the 'fares rule' comes into play for your particular query.... the 'fares rule' is a part of the NRRG that I've yet to get my head around.

AIUI, no, that season is not valid via Oxford.

However, once the TWOrder is complete and Chiltern complete the Oxford - MYB route, 'Bicester Stations' will have to be the fare point, to allow Bicester passengers to journey from either station in either direction.

Passengers I've spoken to are mainly driving to Aylesbury / AVale Parkway. AS are Banbury commuters which has now opened eyes at Chiltern who are worrying about capacities in those car parks....!

Friday evening out of Padd to Didcot is going to be no fun with Chiltern's commuters from Banbury northwards trying to travel that route....which is why people are thinking of Aylesbury.

Chiltern need to get this right because there's another closure just before the full new TT comes in in May.....

....From April 22 to May 7 inclusive!

I've broached the subject of season ticket compensation for this long closure. It is unacceptable to expect commuters paying good money to have to put up with two weeks of journeys extended by a minimum of 50 minutes *each way*.

But I think the ever-expanding Bicester North car park is a clue as to how many using the station do get there every morning. And I expect a good few of those who do walk can probably cadge a lift over to Bucks with someone they know who drives.

While it would be nice for Chiltern's Banbury and Bicester passengers to have free rein to use anything running between there, Oxford, Didcot and London, the pitiful capacity of XC's Voyagers makes that a non-starter in terms of Banbury.

On this occasion, I think Chiltern and FGW, in terms of their ability to assist, really are between a rock and a hard place.

One option for next year might be to attach 168s to FGW's Oxford-London stoppers - at least that way you avoid the issue of the irregular mix of HSTs and Turbos on the fasts - but obviously there are journey time issues and how many people would just bail out at Oxford and wait for the next FGW fast? It's not as if you could lock them in the whole way to London.

Maybe they need to sit down and discuss a rolling stock loan, so that at least all the Oxford fasts are worked by an HST or a six/seven-car 16X combination, though what you do in the case of the 10.31, I'm not sure, with a full 166 off the Cotswold Line and another 200-plus boarding the set that starts at Oxford.

At least it won't coincide with the May blockade on the Oxfordshire section of the Cotswold Line.

Something will have to change, this fairly crucial negative easement for starters...


This is what prevents tickets to either station not being valid on the opposite route.  Can you actually buy tickets to 'Bicester stations'?  I know a few years ago my brother found that from his local station in Kent they sold him a Bicester Town by default, when he wanted Bicester North, and they told him to get lost when he turned up at Marylebone...

Paul S

Not currently.

As I said above, Chiltern will need to change that (and create 'Bicester Stations') once they gain control in May11

As we've discussed before, even Oxford to London will need looking at regarding 'route any permitted' fares to London terminals, as from Oxford Chiltern will be in a similar sort of position as SN are at Southampton re 'London terminal' fares.

Hadn't heard of the responsibility for the route changing as soon as May 2011 - is that pubic knowledge yet?

Paul

May11 TT change date is what I've been told. I don't think it's a secret....always assuming the public enquiry result is announced by then & goes in favour of Chiltern.

I don't think Oxford - London needs looking at does it? FGW will be lead operator and Chiltern will be able to set their own 'Chiltern only' fare.

BUT - once 'Bicester stations' is created, it will mean that a Banbury - London season will be available via Bicester North, Bicester Town, Oxford & London. Because the excess would be zero. And, I guess, Banbury - Haddenham, reverse to Oxford & Padd.

Yes, but what I'm wondering is if they'll have to decide if they want Oxford to London Terminals, set by FGW, to be valid both ways - AIUI this is down to how any routeing guide amendments are made?

Paul

Thanks to all of those who clarified the routing of tickets.  Not just the car parks, but will the trains be able to cope as well?  I don't think anything longer than a 6-car can work the Aylesbury to Marylebone route as that's the length of Wendover and the Metropolitan Line operated stations, and these are already presumably busy commuter services picking up all the way into Marylebone?

If demand does indeed outstrip supply, perhaps the April/May block would allow Bicester passengers to go via Oxford and the new massive free car park at Bicester Town could help share the load?

It does say right at the bottom of the Chiltern alterations page that the Aylesbury route will be operating a revised timetable but until the journey planners are updated, who knows what that might mean.

Chiltern Railways 2-car Class 165 No. 165015 arrived at Didcot Parkway at 13:30 on a proving run from Aylesbury via Claydon, Bicester Town and Oxford.  Displaying "Quainton Road" on the front of the train!

Saw a notice at Reading today saying that there were easements on Chiltern tickets over a number of weekends but didn't have time to read fully. Will check when back this afternoon and report back.

Have been easements via Oxford for many weekends lately, with many more to come, during blockades at various places between Banbury and London.

There is to be an hourly Banbury-Kings Sutton-Bicester North shuttle train operating on November 5

Still no exact timings for next Friday appearing on the Chiltern Railways website or the journey planners.  Pretty poor show!

Indeed - I've been pushing for these for 10 days now!

According to the Routeing Guide, Oxford to London Terminals is already valid to either Paddington or Marylebone on 'Any Permitted' tickets.

That will be in preparation for the Oxford - MYB direct service. I doubt XC would accept it between Oxford & Banbury, for example.

Don't see why not. The current map shows Banbury so CrossCountry cannot arbitrarily opt out of an 'Any Permitted' fare. If the route is permitted and they run trains on the route then they have to accept the ticket.

In fact I just tried a journey planner and it gives up plenty of options utilising CrossCountry between Oxford and Banbury.

Also a trawl through previous Routeing Guides show that Oxford - London via Chiltern Main Line to Marylebone has been a permitted route for a number of years.

The current map for Oxford - London Terminals is Map CS:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/mapCS.jpg)

Of course, this map could be modified at a future date with a Bicester routeing point added at the 'junction' (on the map) between Oxford and Banbury. That would then prevent journeys via Banbury as routeing rules forbid travelling through a routeing point twice on one journey.

Isn't there also an issue because of the back-double caused by passing through Kings Sutton twice...?

Hmm... you may be right blakey, I'd failed to consider King's Sutton. However....

Journey Planners offer up the fares. Yet the Routeing Guide easements list this:


So you can buy the ticket, but the Routeing Guide easements appear to disallow the route if you are going all the way to London. Thus according to that easement you can only travel from Oxford as far Wembley Stadium!!

An anomaly in fares and routeing, who'd've thought it?

EDIT: Just to add... WebTIS Journey Planners offer up the fares.

The Mornington Crescent rules apply here, possibly?  ::) ;D

Only if you're playing a "Dollis Hill Loop", naturally  ;D

Timetables are finally up on Chiltern's website for the diversions in less than a weeks time - still no timetables for the Bicester North / Haddenham & Thame Parkway passengers though, and the on-line journey planners have yet to be updated.

The online journey planners won't get updated owing to the onhoing NRE problem with their software. Chiltern's changes this current weekend aren't in there either & it's causing problems because the warnings about this problem STILL aren't big enough to be noticed!

Timetable for Friday 5th now finally on Chiltern website. Rubbish really!

First PAD arrival just before 9. Travellers wanting earlier London arrival need to bus from Bicester North to Aylesbury VP.

It is rubbish, although you could always take the normal FGW service from Banbury at 06:08 which connects in with the first service from Warwick Parkway and Leamington Spa.  With a further change at Oxford an 07:59 arrival at Paddington is possible - the same time as Bicester passengers leaving from Bicester Town on the 06:23 could achieve.  08:20 and 08:30 arrivals are also possible by catching other FGW or XC services from Banbury.

What is very disappointing, especially given that Chiltern's engineering alterations are usually so well advertised, is the lack of notice of full details of these arrangements (buses from Bicester/Haddenham to Aylesbury VP have still not been uploaded), and the alternatives such as the 06:08 FGW train from Banbury are not included in the timetables that have been uploaded.

Nor is it actually clear whether FGW will accept Chiltern tickets on services other than those involving a change at Didcot. All the website says is


 

FGW don't want Chiltern's passengers at Oxford, hence no mention of this.

Chiltern's tickets aren't being made valid on XC unless they are valid normally. London tickets from Banbury are anyway - but I think tickets from Leamington Spa northwards are all routed 'High Wycombe'.

Actually, in case any Banbury commuters are looking on here, if you get the 06:08 from Banbury through to Didcot, chances are you'll make the 06:59 ex Didcot for a 07:44 arrival at Paddington, and if not you'd still be able to catch the train you would have got had you changed at Oxford for an 07:59 arrival.

Similar story with the 06:30 FGW service ex-Banbury with a change at Didcot of 7 minutes you'll arrive at 08:14 (or 08:33 if you miss it).  These are in addition to the one Chiltern want to tell you about at 07:07 changing at Didcot for an 08:40 arrival in Paddington - too late for many commuters I expect!

Quite. Chiltern really haven't done a very good job on this!

Replacement bus times from Bicester and Haddenham to Aylesbury are now on line.  As I suspected it's quicker to go from Bicester Town via Oxford to Paddington and involves no buses and a car park space in the new free large car park at Bicester Town - but Chiltern/FGW don't want to give you that option if you have a season ticket from Bicester North.  Here's some comparisons:

Commuters into London:
Train:  06:23 Bicester Town change at Oxford arrive 07:59
Bus:  06:12 Bicester North change onto train at Aylesbury Vale Parkway arrive 07:58 (10 minutes slower)

Commuters from London:
Train: 18:22 Paddington change at Oxford arrive Bicester Town at 19:55
Bus: 18:18 Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Parkway changing on to bus arriving at Bicester North 20:04 (13 minutes slower)

Leisure travellers into London:
Train: 10:30 Bicester Town change at Oxford arrive 11:57
Bus: 10:15 Bicester North change onto train at AVP arriving at 12:05 (23 minutes slower)

Leisure travellers from London:
Train: 15:22 Paddington change at Oxford arrive Bicester Town at 16:55
Bus: 15:27 Marylebone change onto bus at AVP arriving at 17:13 (13 minutes slower)

OK, I'll admit I've cherry-picked the best options in the examples above and the bus services run every half-hour during the off-peak and every 15 minutes or so during the peak, but I think it reinforces my point that Chiltern ticket holders should at least be given the option of going via Oxford if Chiltern were serious about providing their customers with the best alternative service it could. 

I would also be wary about relying on the rush-hour traffic in Bicester along with the single carriageway of the A41 to get you reliably from Bicester to Aylesbury Vale Parkway in 30-minutes with only a 7-minute connection onto the train.  The journey is allowed 25-minutes off-peak in a car according to Bing Maps!

You can allow 10 of those extra minutes in getting from PAD to MYB....so there's very little to be gained really! With the number of Bicester North seasons, you would swamp the few Bicester Town trains that do run, and one of those is already 75% full in the morning, according to OBRAG.

Your timings to AVP are noted - I shall be out & about there on Friday morning....we'll see!

Yep - point taken, although not many of these commuters actually work at Marylebone and you could argue Paddington is better served with onward tube connections with Circle/H&S Line services stopping there as well as the Bakerloo Line. 

Also, it remains to be seen how swamped busy Met Line services from Aylesbury to Marylebone get, especially from Amersham onwards, when all the Bicester and Haddenham passengers decend onto their trains at AVP.  There are more trains running from Vale Parkway, but no extra services running from Aylesbury southwards as that is already at full-capacity in the peak.  I don't know whether these trains are being strengthened as a result, but as I've said earlier, 6-cars is the maximum length that can operate due to platform lengths.  Then there's the issue of capacity at Aylesbury Vale Parkway car park that you mentioned - it's fortunate that it's a bit of a white elephant at the moment.

Chris, I'll look forward to hearing about your observations - and I'm sure you won't be backward in coming forward with suggestions for Chiltern should there be problems!

On the other side of the coin though, are the buses a lot catch in the MYB area that can't be got at PAD, so some will head for MYB anyway to get them.
 

Especially as those I've spoken to from Banbury northwards are looking at driving direct to AVP, rather than train / bus via Bicester North! I suspect AVP car park will be full quite early on - don't know what the surrounding road network is like to park on, but the A41 can expect parking on its verges around AVP I reckon.

Well, who'd have thought...? "Chiltern Railways in 'not perfect' shocker" might make a nice headline...  ;D

Ok, maybe the press correspndents need to read this thread (http://groups.google.com/group/uk.railway/t/fa08ddd9f886504c?hl=en-GB) on ukr newsgroup.

How did things go, Chris?

Certainly from the Birmingham, Banbury, Oxford, Didcot perspective it was a bruising day all round with punctuality in the evening peaks hit very badly as has been discussed elsewhere - any poor unfortunates who may have elected to travel to/from Bicester Town as per my suggestion would probably have had a bit of a nightmare.  The trains running from Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Parkway seemed to perform much better.

Sadly, passengers on the hourly Birmingham to Didcot services fared badly as well.  Most of them were running late (not helped at all by a mere 5 minutes turnback time allowed at Didcot Parkway) and the severe delays on the FGW routes meant that a lot of connections were missed.  XC services bore the brunt of many extra passengers too with busy Friday loadings swelled to almost breaking point on a number of trains - many people abandoning the 'official' timetable via Didcot due to the delays!

Yup - completely agree. Can't add much to that, except to say that my recommendation for next year's repeats will to be to stay with Chiltern & endure the bus / drive to Aylesbury VP.....although it won't take many more before they'll need overflow parking @ AVP