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Journey by Journey => London to Reading => Topic started by: tom-langley on October 17, 2007, 12:03:41 pm



Title: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: tom-langley on October 17, 2007, 12:03:41 pm
Finally Crossrail gets the go-ahead!

I think this is a great project, if not a bit expensive. For one thing it means quicker journey times into central London. Much needed increase in capacity in the form of longer trains on local services and the further electrification of the GWML to Maidenhead.

My one problem with this project is, why they could not extend it to Reading, Surely the main cost of the project is the tunnelling under London, so extending the line to Reading would produce benefits for a relatively low cost compared to the whole project. I hope that this project will spur the government to continue the electrification further west, and modernise the GWML.

Anyone knows what happens to the GWML line when they integrate it with crossrail. I have heard that Maidenhead will become a major interchange, so people coming in from further west will change from FGW to crossrail there. What happens to the FGW local services? How does it affect FGW long distance services?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Shazz on October 17, 2007, 12:06:55 pm
...it gets the "go ahead" every electionm time for the labour government.

i'm still skeptical to if it's actually going to happen this time


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Lee on September 24, 2008, 10:36:32 pm
Project staff and experts will be in the Nicholson Shopping Centre for two days to explain to the public how the new train line, connecting Maidenhead to Central London, will affect Maidenhead, and to answer questions (link below.)
http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/news/article-8144-find-out-about-crossrail-plans-in-public-exhibition/
 
It will also detail how the line will be constructed and how to get future updates on the project.

Maidenhead MP Theresa May will be one of the first people along to the exhibition which is due to open at 10am on Friday and run until 5.30pm on Saturday.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: devon_metro on November 04, 2008, 02:35:25 pm
Cross Rail will now serve Heathrow Airport...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7707338.stm


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on November 04, 2008, 02:37:01 pm
Heathrow has always been part of Crossrail plans, albeit only the Connect service I believe.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on November 04, 2008, 03:22:41 pm
Even extension to Reading doesn't solve the problem that Crossrail doesn't work West of Paddington.

To the East you have 24 tph through the centre diverging 12 to Shenfiled and 12 to Abbey Wood.

To the West you have 24 tph coming out of the tunnel with only 10 tph proceeding beyond Westbourne Park. Which currently is suggested to be Heathrow 4 tph,  West Drayton 2 tph and   Maidenhead 4 tph. Which means 14 TPH terminate at Westbourne Park.

Given that it is meant to be a Tube style service (turn and get train within say 5 minutes or less) if you want staions West of West Drayton you can turn up at say Bond Street and possibly have to wait 15 minutes for a train and let 5 trains trains go by. Also depending on the sequence  of the trains you may find that you cannot get on your first train because it's full of people for Ealing to West Drayton. As happens now on the semis to Reading.

The only thing an extension to Reading will bring is non disruption of the very heavy commuter flows from Twyford and Reading to stations East of Maidenhead to Ealing. It will eliminate the need for change and retain through services.

Also it will still give a direct westward conecting service to Reading from stations between Ealing and  Maidenhead without requiring a change.

Cross rail desparately needs a second Western terminus.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on November 04, 2008, 04:15:43 pm
Presumably if you extended to Reading you would not just extend the 4 Maidenhead services to Reading but have 4 of the Paddington terminators running relatively fast to Reading (say EB, H&H, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading)

They would then be just about fast enough to attract passengers travelling beyond Paddington to switch from the fast trains from further afield for the benefit of a through service to the West End, City or further east, and the guarantee of a seat for their whole journey as the services would start at Reading. This could have a major impact on the HSS's by reducing overcrowding between Reading and Paddington.   


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Lee on November 04, 2008, 08:38:10 pm
DfT/BAA press release link.
http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=383134&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on November 04, 2008, 08:59:19 pm
Why not incorporate Greenford?

Have 2tph terminating there to get terminating trains off the mainline, and allow other trains to skip Acton.

Plus an extra 2 tph for Ealing.

By the way, the plans above sound horrendous! Too complicated. Same on the Tube. Why have dozens of terminating places when you can simplify it and run more trains to the final destination (where capacity allows)?

And we still haven't answered the question about how FGW's Thames Turbo commuter service (from Banbury, Oxford and Tywford etc.) will fit in on the already saturated fast lines east of Maidenhead?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on November 04, 2008, 09:55:52 pm
The Greenford's are I think going to be a shuttle between West Ealing and Greenford, I have heard somewhere that TfL want to look at possibly running a passenger service Padd to West Ealing via the Wycombe lines with an inter change at Park Royal with the Central and Piccadilly lines but this is a long term aspiration.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on November 04, 2008, 10:15:36 pm
The Greenford's are I think going to be a shuttle between West Ealing and Greenford, I have heard somewhere that TfL want to look at possibly running a passenger service Padd to West Ealing via the Wycombe lines with an inter change at Park Royal with the Central and Piccadilly lines but this is a long term aspiration.

So not only will it end the need for a shuttle, it will retain direct trains from the branch into the city, and help solve the turnback problem.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Lee on November 04, 2008, 10:16:43 pm
Further related links.
http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2008/11/very-crossrail.html

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2008/11/penny-counting.html


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stebbo on November 05, 2008, 09:21:58 pm
A service to Greenford up the Acton line, eh? Seems like another case of short-sighted singling a few years ago..........


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on November 05, 2008, 10:15:28 pm
Yep.

But how about this for a sceanario.

Chiltern build Bicester link and run Oxford  service to Marylebone. They then put in a bid "Evergreen n" to redouble from South Ruislip Old Oak and divert Oxfords to Padd when Crossrail starts. They coud also run fast Birminghams to compete with WCML.

After all they are clever enough to run the ghost train and keep up their drivers route knowledge.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on November 07, 2008, 01:20:36 pm

The problem with Crossrail is the different aims of its promoters/lobbyists over the years.

TfL and London business see it mostly as a relief Central Line, wheras it was conceived, I believe, by Sir Peter Parker in the 1980's as a main-line link, enabling Bristol - Norwich type journeys, hence its non-tube character. London, having the most clout, has won of course but the loose ends, particularly at the West have not been tied up, hence the absurd 14tph terminating at Paddington. (Be sure to get off smartly or you'll enjoy a long and happy lay-over, chatting to the cleaners, in the new carriage sidings!). It's route, via Bond St. and Tottenham Court Road is more local than long distance as it misses the vital TENS/Intercity/International interchanges at Euston and KX/St Pancras. It may be too late now to get the route right. What we are left with is nearer a Paris RER Line B, (Line A was ThamesLink) with fast surface stock crossing under the City. Even the platform/train lengths are doubtful as HX has at present 9x23m car trains but Crossrail is to have only 8x20m cars. Heathrow connect uses sets of 5x23m cars, the more economical  formation.

In the West, the consultants, Steer Gleave correctly made the point that Reading commuters want non-stop services to London, not stopping Crossrails. What they missed is that Reading is said to have more commuters INWARDS than OUTWARDS. Its footfall of 15M puts it up with the busiest PTE termini. Thus  stopping Crossrail services to Reading would be uniquely profitable in that they would become busier as they approached Reading. The Benfit Cost Ratio (BCR) rises rapidly as Crossrail extends West to and beyond Reading. Only the unmodernised station layout hinders this.

The immediate nonsense  of Crossrail's missing 14 services could be remedied by small extensions to Greenford (pointed out in another post) and even to Aylesbury. The H&C line  is a surface stock gauge route and could be added to Crossrail, easing Metropolitan/Circle Line pathing, perhaps allowing the District Line to terminate usefully at Baker St rather than in mid-air at Edgware Rd, although a bay might be needed.

What a ^15Bn mess!

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on November 07, 2008, 07:52:49 pm
I really like the idea of transferring the H&C line into CrossRail to let District Line terminate in the North Circle.

I, too, was confused why the route did not serve St Pancras International, but I suppose a route like that would be a duplicate of the Circle Line.

Have a look at "Superlink," a different idea for the branches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superlink_(railway_network)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: G.Uard on November 07, 2008, 09:46:43 pm
I really like the idea of transferring the H&C line into CrossRail to let District Line terminate in the North Circle.

I, too, was confused why the route did not serve St Pancras International, but I suppose a route like that would be a duplicate of the Circle Line.

Have a look at "Superlink," a different idea for the branches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superlink_(railway_network)


I seem to remember reading in Modern Railways, that the Circle Line will, (long term wise), be cut, with the western chord serviced by District Line services terminating and reversing at Edgeware Rd. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stebbo on November 07, 2008, 10:28:59 pm
I've long thought (going back 25 years from when I lived in London between 1978 and 1985) that there's a case for electrifying Banbury and Oxford to London Paddington via Oxford and High Wycombe/Acton. In those dark days I could even see a case for closing Marylebone by extending the Met back to its historical stamping grounds of Aylesbury - those maybe banish those thoughts now given how good Chiltern are.

So given the new landscape, why not electrify Snow Hill to Paddington/Crossrail and Marylebone via Reading and Acton - oh and add in Westbury and the rest of the Berks and Hants commuter line.

Is this a bit too radical?

PS Remember my father saying that in the late 1940s, the quickest route from Birmingham to London was Snow Hill to Paddington via High Wycombe on the Birkenhead up express


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 07, 2008, 11:01:31 pm

The immediate nonsense  of Crossrail's missing 14 services could be remedied by small extensions to Greenford (pointed out in another post) and even to Aylesbury. The H&C line  is a surface stock gauge route and could be added to Crossrail, easing Metropolitan/Circle Line pathing, perhaps allowing the District Line to terminate usefully at Baker St rather than in mid-air at Edgware Rd, although a bay might be needed.

What a ^15Bn mess!

OTC

Isn't the provisional Crossrail timetable already banking on the Greenford's terminating in a new bay at West Ealing during the peak? I agree that it's tempting to suggest using Greenford and H&C lines to allow more trains to head westwards, but it should not be forgotten that there would need to be massive investment to modify platforms to accommodate them - most H&C platforms can barely accomodate the 6-car trains that currently use them, and there would also be implications for Drayton Green and Greenford which just wouldn't have space for a 160m long service. ^15bn would soon turn into ^20bn!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on November 07, 2008, 11:06:04 pm
I know the Hammersmith and City line is to become the Hammersmith and Circle line soon.

This is a possible alternative approach.

Snow Hill to Paddington is about 2 miles (I think) shorter than New Street to Euston.

The Greenford Branch will suffer with no direct trains to London, and people will use the Central Line (as it is probably quicker to get to Bond Street/ T Court Road direct using LU without a change at West Ealing.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on November 09, 2008, 11:49:50 am

"Isn't the provisional Crossrail timetable already banking on the Greenford's terminating in a new bay at West Ealing during the peak? I agree that it's tempting to suggest using Greenford and H&C lines to allow more trains to head westwards, but it should not be forgotten that there would need to be massive investment to modify platforms to accommodate them - most H&C platforms can barely accomodate the 6-car trains that currently use them, and there would also be implications for Drayton Green and Greenford which just wouldn't have space for a 160m long service. ^15bn would soon turn into ^20bn!"



1. 15Bn to provide a journey between Greenford and Bond St that requires a change of train is poor value. How much will the West Ealing bay and trackwork/signalling cost?

2. Extending platform lengths is not prohibitive in cost to a competent railway industry. I believe both the LMS and SR had concrete prefabrication plants and could erect a halt in a weekend. It is true that some sites (between bridges, on viaducts etc) can be difficult. OLE (wires) clearances would be the challenge.

3.   Crossrail costs will need review - 6MW for an 8-car train that would have needed 1.5MW in the 1970's, architects' benefits at stations to name but two. The process for works on both NR and LUL is unreasonably expensive - with simple jobs inflated many times and designs and contracts going over multiple companies' desks. It is a version of the LLoyds scam of a few years ago, where  a musical chairs of re-insurance took place, each time an un-earned commission being charged, leaving finally little left to cover the risk, which was borne by unsuspecting names. This is NOT the industry's fault, but entirely that of politicians and Civil Servants. Sorting this out would deliver a better Crossrail cheaper.

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 09, 2008, 12:57:49 pm

1. 15Bn to provide a journey between Greenford and Bond St that requires a change of train is poor value. How much will the West Ealing bay and trackwork/signalling cost?

2. Extending platform lengths is not prohibitive in cost to a competent railway industry. I believe both the LMS and SR had concrete prefabrication plants and could erect a halt in a weekend. It is true that some sites (between bridges, on viaducts etc) can be difficult. OLE (wires) clearances would be the challenge.


I agree with several of your points OTC. The cost of the West Ealing bay would not be too significant, especially given that it would free up two peak paths per hour that have to be operated with a two car turbo - the increase in capacity is needed badly.

I don't think OLE would present too many problems on the Greenford branch. There are only two overbridges and the only tunnel is of quite a modern design with a reasonable clearance. The trouble with that line, as I mentioned, is Drayton Green and Greenford.

At Drayton Green the platforms start as soon as the junction of the triangle leading to West Ealing and Hanwell converge, and end as soon as the tracks pass under a busy road bridge - that's just enough room for a two carriage train.

At Greenford, there is just room for a 3-car turbo, but the platform is nestled in-between the Central Line tracks and so can't be extended in a westerly direction. The other direction the track immediately goes down a steep gradient to pass beneath the Westbound Central Line.

With Greenford already served by a pretty frequent Central Line service, and the other stations on the route not busy enough to warrant anything other than a two-car service, even at peak hours, I just don't see a big enough market to warrant the expense of the modifications. In fact, I would say there would be much more potential in electrifying the line through from Old Oak Common to South Ruislip and beyond to High Wycombe to provide another route west of Paddington as has been mentioned on here before - though again, you'd need lots of money spent on platforms, the electrification costs, and a grade-seperated junction at Old Oak Common, so the ^20bn price-tag would be hit again in no time!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on November 09, 2008, 05:02:33 pm
But the Greenford trains run on the slow lines (I assume) and the slow lines are being taken up by XR anyway. It would just be an extension to the Paddington terminators.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 09, 2008, 07:27:19 pm
But the Greenford trains run on the slow lines (I assume) and the slow lines are being taken up by XR anyway. It would just be an extension to the Paddington terminators.

Not quite sure what you're getting at there, Btline - but as far as I am aware, should the West Ealing bay platform get built (hopefully well before Crossrail services start), then during peak hours there would be a 20-minute frequency stopping service between Greenford and West Ealing connecting there with trains from/to Paddington. The present off-peak 30-minute frequency of trains would operate between Paddington and Greenford as they currently do.

This would free up two peak-hour paths per hour between Paddington and West Ealing which could be operated by 5/6/7-car trains heading out to Slough or Reading, rather than the 2-car train which plies between Paddington and Greenford all day.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on November 10, 2008, 01:40:01 pm

With Greenford already served by a pretty frequent Central Line service, and the other stations on the route not busy enough to warrant anything other than a two-car service, even at peak hours, I just don't see a big enough market to warrant the expense of the modifications. In fact, I would say there would be much more potential in electrifying the line through from Old Oak Common to South Ruislip and beyond to High Wycombe to provide another route west of Paddington as has been mentioned on here before - though again, you'd need lots of money spent on platforms, the electrification costs, and a grade-seperated junction at Old Oak Common, so the ^20bn price-tag would be hit again in no time!

What a good idea!

The Greenford branch looks like one of those Beeching left-overs which the DfT couldn't close. Its logical termination in today's network would be where it meets Chiltern Trains' network, i.e. South Ruislip. That is only 16 tkm from W Ealing.
It would require main line platforms put back on the spacious GW High Wycombe main line at Greenford, Northolt and a turn-round facility at S Ruislip. The tiny Drayton Green halt is close to Hanwell, W Ealing and (the new stretchable?) Castle Bar stations so might close. This could then be worth 4 rather than 2 trains per hour, should give change from 50M and a hike in overall BCR.

OTC





Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on November 10, 2008, 08:15:26 pm
What I am saying is that stopping the Greenford trains in a bay won't free up paths, as the slow lines will be used for Crossrail.

Why not extend some of the Paddington terminators to Greenford, therby making use of the space (and more trains to Slough etc.)?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Lee on June 16, 2009, 10:09:22 am
FOI request for copies of the drawing which supported the Crossrail (Nomination) Order 2008 - http://www.dft.gov.uk/foi/responses/2009/june/foicrossraildrawings/


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 13, 2010, 09:38:59 pm
The first real physical signs of work on the western end of the project have started this week with the lifting of the small number of sidings and run-round loop at Westbourne Park stone terminal. This is to allow construction of the western end tunnel portal to start.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on January 13, 2010, 11:11:41 pm
Does that mean the ready mix depot has closed?  No more freight trains within sight of Paddington station.

If the plant was going to close why was the exit signal changed to fibre optic a few years ago?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 14, 2010, 11:01:54 am
Yes, no more freight trains running to within half a mile of Paddington station - though it was in use pretty much right up to the 'end'.

I guess the LED signals were installed before the final nod to Crossrail was given. It is only a standard 3-head LED signal head though, so could presumably be re-used elsewhere?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 28, 2010, 10:42:57 pm
A bit of an old thread to resurrect, but as far as I know the first really big civil engineering contract affecting the GWML part of the Crossrail project has finally been let by Network Rail.  It concerns design work for the 'dive under' at Acton Yard so as to allow freight services departing the yard westwards to not have to conflict with moves on the Up Relief line.  Although it doesn't sound like a large contract, there will need to be quite major alterations to the track layout to fit it in.

More details here:  http://www.build.co.uk/construction_news.asp?newsid=113420 (http://www.build.co.uk/construction_news.asp?newsid=113420)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on June 29, 2010, 12:56:52 am
In answer to Tom Langley questions, July's Modern railways has details of other contracts let for Crossrail work in the Central Area.

As regards what happens to the current FGW releif line servies when the wires run out at Maidenhead nobody is very sure but as far as i can see it completely wrecks teh current pattern on the line.

It seems that Crossrail will monopolise the Relief lines from Maidenhead with an every train all stations. There is talk of possible diesel shuttle from Reading to Slough.

However it does seem the the very large flow of passengers to and from stations from West Drayton to Ealing Broadway from Twyford and westward will no longer have through trains and will have to change at Slough or Maidenhead.

IMO Crossrail does not work west of Eastbourne terrace.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on June 29, 2010, 03:18:49 pm

The real question could be; how did Crossrail get as far as M'head.

IIRRC, the modern idea began with Sir Peter Parker of BR, who wanted a Bristol-Norwich mainline axis. Lovely idea. Then came the overcrowding on the Central Line of LUL, with serious London lobbyists wanting a relief line. Hence the Liverpool St-Paddington tunnel, with a kink towards T'ham Ct Rd to please developers and displease St Pancras International users. However the costs and benefits (the BCR ratio) were out of balance - only about 1.1 I think, so extensions of existing services at each end were examined. This improved (c1.5) if Heathrow were included and even more (c2.0) if M'head were reached. The logic of M'head was that it was as far as the existing electricity Feeder Station (at OOC) could supply. However the BCR continues to improve the further West (including Reading) you go until the graph goes vertical and the actual (not computed socio-economic) cost savings are greater than the capital repayments, hence the BCR becomes infinite (with GWML wiring). However Reading Station is itself a very difficult and costly unravelling task, so M'head as a limit makes good delivery side sense. The argument was also made that Reading commuters would use fast (diesel) services over stopping electric Crossrails. This overlooks Reading's regional importance - more commuters in than out.

There are loose ends, such as who gets the relief line paths etc but they will be  problems of success....

Hope this helps,

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 29, 2010, 03:49:47 pm
The classic 25kV feed for the OHLE would have needed a Grid at Iver, Crossrail / GWML electrification is / was / may be replacing this with an "auto transformer" system 50kV (complex to explain its a French system but the trains still run at 25kV) the in feed is at Kensel off of a 400kV subterranean grid line (the next GWML in feed would be Didcot).

The FGW franchise expires before Crossrail starts running trains also FGW may not be to corporative with all the possession Crossrail require if they is no reward for them, quite frankly the inner TV services are a mess the solution is for HMG to bite the bullet and extend Crossrail to Reading but they are unlikely to do this when they are ripping public expenditure to shreds.

There is going to be several Crossrail blockades Acton is one area, Stockley Park another


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on September 20, 2010, 08:52:44 am
From Building Magazine (http://www.building.co.uk/sectors/infrastructure/cbi-warns-spending-review-must-not-target-crossrail/5005921.article):

Quote
CBI warns spending review must not target Crossrail

Business group urges Treasury to protect work on Crossrail and Tube upgrades in order to boost growth

The CBI is calling on government to guarantee that Crossrail and work upgrading London^s Underground continues after next month^s Spending Review.

In a submission to the Treasury today, the business group said that as government limits spending it should prioritise areas that foster the economies ability to grow and and has outlined a number of proposals.

The government has said that it will make ^32bn of annual spending cuts by 2014/15. However, while the CBI agrees that spending must be limited to avoid major tax rises that would damage the UK economy and undermine competitiveness, it says protect funding in areas that foster economic growth must be protected.

It adds that the government must prioritse investment in infrastructure as well as research and development and education and training. Inparticualr it highlights the importance of investing in transport infrastructure as this offers high returns and will play a crucial role in boosting domestic and international trade.

This includes Crossrail and upgrades to London^s Underground as well as maintaining existing transport infrastructure and returning public sector capital investment to 2.25% of GDP.

The CBI says savings can be made by subjecting all public sector transport projects to rigorous value for money assessments and by attracting more private sector funding and by reducing concessionary fares and the number of Highways Agency contracts.

John Cridland, CBI deputy director general, said: ^Cutting spending means tough choices. We think that the need for economic growth, not the noise of the loudest voice, should determine where cuts are made. The Government must improve the efficiency of public services and focus the limited public money available on areas that do most to galvanise growth.^


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Andy on September 20, 2010, 06:27:25 pm
"In a submission to the Treasury today, the business group said that as government limits spending it should prioritise areas that foster the economies ability to grow and and has outlined a number of proposals."

"Inparticualr"

"it says protect funding in areas that foster economic growth must be protected."

Building Magazine needs to send one of its journalists on a basic grammar, spelling/typing and syntax course!!
 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on September 20, 2010, 06:56:55 pm
Perhaps it was written by a builder!  ;D



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on September 27, 2010, 06:48:03 pm
Seems like the order for crossrail's new trains are going ahead but will be a tried & tested design so that means electrostars's or those EMU'S which are built by seimens ( What are they called?)

Link herwe which includes some further news about crossrail:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11418800

Could the government order additional trains for Thameslink as part of the Crossrail order?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 27, 2010, 07:21:11 pm
That's the wrong way round.

It is the Thameslink trains that have to be ordered now, Crossrail doesn't need trains until about 2016 for service in 2017.

Crossrail's ITT isn't out yet, and won't be for ages, so I think you are reading too much into the BBC article. It just means whenever they do order them, they won't require a dedicated design.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on September 28, 2010, 04:14:42 pm
From the guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/27/crossrail-budget-cuts) (27/09/2010):

Quote
Crossrail prepares to make major budget cuts

Crossrail today set out a series of cost savings to its ^15.9bn budget, which experts said could total "hundreds of millions" of pounds.

The company building the rail line across London said that the scope of the project would not change, meaning that all the stations and the outer-London spurs will still be built. Efficiencies would be found by making use of existing train designs, rather than building new carriages from scratch, the company said.

The latest cuts are part of Crossrail's ongoing review of costs on the line, which will run for more than 73 miles from Maidenhead and Heathrow in the west, through new, twin-bore 13-mile tunnels under central London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east.

The company outlined six areas where savings could be made: a redesign of Whitechapel station in east London; looking at the potential for savings on other stations; using the same signs and lights along the route and buying them in bulk; reusing existing and disused infrastructure, such as the Connaught tunnel in the Docklands; ensuring that tunnelling work now being procured is as cost-efficient as possible; and using existing train designs.

No figures for potential savings were provided, but experts said that they would amount to "hundreds of millions" of pounds. They will be outlined in full this year when Crossrail submits revised estimates of the total project cost to Transport for London and the Department for Transport.

Noble Francis, economic policy development director at the Construction Products Association, said savings were unlikely to be on a larger scale: "Saving billions of pounds here would be difficult."

Although construction costs have plummeted as the sector has weathered a deep recession since the initial estimates were produced, rail infrastructure work has remained relatively buoyant.

"For large parts of this, you need rail-specific labour. Rail spending is actually increasing," Francis said.

Prices of important raw materials have also gone up recently.

Francis said he expected the work would be phased too to ensure cash is spent later rather than sooner, easing the burden on the public finances in the current strained environment. The bulk of the spending is expected to come in 2012-15, with the first trains due to run in 2017.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 28, 2010, 07:27:28 pm
Yes, a swathe of similar stories over the last couple of days, and it's right that Crossrail should save where it can in order to survive.  It looks increasingly likely that the project will be completed in full - although everything seems to have gone a little quiet over the logical and necessary Reading extention?

Swish newly designed trains and overly ornate stations are all very good, but I'd rather live without them and have the project survive in full.  I'm sure most other people would feel the same.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on September 28, 2010, 07:57:11 pm
We've never had swish new trains or ornate stations for Thameslink (or Thameslink 2000 - remember that?) Let's just hope that Crossrail doesn't take as long, or suffer the same political machinations, as Thameslink has.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 28, 2010, 10:29:57 pm
Swish newly designed trains and overly ornate stations are all very good, but I'd rather live without them and have the project survive in full.  I'm sure most other people would feel the same.
  The decision to extend to Reading will not be made until the future of the GWML electrification is settled, a) will it happen at all b) will it be just the TV services or c) Bristol / S Wales; if its "a" then the extension of Crossrail to Reading could happen at a future date.

My understanding from people I know in the Crossrail team is it is all still a moving feast to what the end product will be exactly, the trains are likely to lower powered this will affect acceleration times but will be cheaper to build .......... it is after all a "Metro service"
We've never had swish new trains or ornate stations for Thameslink (or Thameslink 2000 - remember that?) Let's just hope that Crossrail doesn't take as long, or suffer the same political machinations, as Thameslink has.
Have you seen the plans for Blackfriers, London Bridge, Farindon etc !!!  Crossrail is already falling foul of political interference Crossrail could even end up with Thameslink cast off 319's they are tunnel rated


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on September 28, 2010, 10:33:36 pm
I'll concede the point on the stations (ornate or otherwise!) but as for the rolling stock.......


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Zoë on September 29, 2010, 06:22:20 pm
Crossrail could even end up with Thameslink cast off 319's they are tunnel rated
I doubt it, Crossrail will be using ATO.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on September 30, 2010, 10:38:04 am
Zoe ATO? Do you mean Automatic Train Operation? I've never seen that mentioned I've always assummed DOO and conventional signalling with TPWS providing the train stop in the tunnel as per East London Line.

DOO now with possibly SDO as apparently Crossrail are allegedly (Modern Railways article on dwell times)  forbidden to lengthen the platforms at Hanwell because of environmental objections.

There is a small piece in today's Maidenhead Advertiser page 3 saying Maidenhead will still be part of Crossrail. Philip Hammond has allegdely committed the government to delivering the fill project Crossrail will serve all staions and that Cross Rail Ltd  has endorsed this.

If this means that wires only get to Maidenhead and that CRL goes to the expensive of building the turnback sidings at Maidnehad that would be a complete waste of money. Crossrail barely works West of Eastboune Terrace and terminating it at Maidenhead compounds the problem. It must go to Reading to make any sense.

It goes on to add there might not be any new DESIGN of train. Now castoff 319s would be OK but do they mean more 378s? That would be appalling with their longitudinal seats and large standing areas they would be totally unsuitable for the longer journeys on Crossrail. They are barely adequate for the North, East, West London and Watford Lines. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 30, 2010, 11:06:24 am
If that is what ATO stands for here, then Zoe is wrong.

New trains on a current design - prob aa follow-on from the Thameslink build?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 30, 2010, 12:37:41 pm
Now castoff 319s would be OK but do they mean more 378s? That would be appalling with their longitudinal seats and large standing areas they would be totally unsuitable for the longer journeys on Crossrail. They are barely adequate for the North, East, West London and Watford Lines. 

Nothing stopping a 378 based design being applied with a normal seating layout is there?  Corridor connections, 2+3 seating, and air-con - If Bombadier get the order, it sounds a bit like a Class 377 type of design to me.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 30, 2010, 01:08:36 pm
There is at least one place that mentions Crossrail ATO. The technical spec for Thameslink ATO...

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/thameslinkrollingstock/itt/trainspec.pdf (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/thameslinkrollingstock/itt/trainspec.pdf)

Quote
Through modelling, it has been established that the only available solution to achieving the high performance levels through the Thameslink Core Area is through ATO. For consistency with national policy and in order to minimise the complexity of onboard equipment it is necessary to integrate the ATO with an ETCS compatible ATP system. This document has been developed to define the requirements of a Train Control System embodying ATO and ETCS.
This document is presented initially for consultation during the bidding phase of the procurement of the new Thameslink Rolling Stock, but it is intended in subsequent releases to become the single reference specification for all aspects of the Thameslink train control systems.
It is further intended that this document will be consulted with the Crossrail project team so that extensions to functionality that would better support the Crossrail operational concept can be incorporated as early as possible in the design lifecycle. In subsequent revisions this document will therefore become a national specification for high capacity urban Train Control Systems.

I always took that to mean that the Crossrail design already includes ATO?  As I've said before though, ploughing through the Crossrail site could take ages, but I'll see if I can find anything...

Quote
The signalling system on the new sections of line will be designed to provide Automatic
Train Protection, which is a system that supervises the driver^s actions. It will check that
the train stays within a braking trajectory when a caution signal has been passed,
ensuring that the train will come to a stand at the stop signal. In the central tunnels and
at points within the vicinity of the tunnel portals, Automatic Train Operation will automate
the driver^s function
. It will control train stopping at stations, control speed between
stations, ensure that only the doors on the correct side can be opened at each station,
ensure trains stop in line with platform edge doors and initiate door closing. The tunnels
will be bi-directionally signalled for use during disrupted operations (for example, if a
tunnel is blocked due to a train failure). On existing lines, the current signalling system
will be used. Traction power and signalling in the central area will be controlled from a
dedicated Crossrail Route Control Centre located to the west of Romford station.

From Crossrail Environment Stament Volume 1 Chapter 2 - I can't make a link to it but I guess if you're that interested you can find it anyway.

Thameslink ATO is intended for just the core 24 tph section between Blackfriars and St Pancras, outside this area the trains will be driven normally (with a Driver Aid system to advise on best speeds to maintain regulation). This seems just as likely an operating plan for Crossrails core section as well - don't forget it is TfL driven, and they are quite familiar with the concept of ATO.

Now many commentators over the last year or so have suggested that 24 tph either won't happen due to cuts, or that ATO isn't necessary anyway, because conventuional four aspect signalling will allow the headways at the slow speeds through the core. This may be true, but NR have been quoted just as regularly denying any changes. 

The recent announcements about using off the shelf stock don't preclude ATO anyway, logically an Electrostar with ATO is still an Electrostar, in the same way a GW HST with ATP is still an HST.  Futhermore, since when did changing the seating layout count for anything?  A 2+2 seated 378 with 10 cars and ATP/ATO would meet the spec - I wouldn't call it a new design though.  Thameslink have already decided on 2+2 with large standback areas, I reckon if that comes off it'll be used on Crossrail too, and that will meet their commitment to not reinventing the wheel.

(As an aside, their latest announcements repeats the Whitechapel rediesign announced some months ago, and the bit picked up by all the media about reusing existing infrastructure in Docklands (ie the former NLL through the Connaught Tunnel) has always been the plan AIUI.)



Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Zoë on September 30, 2010, 07:45:54 pm
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/2008/06/crossrail-to-have-ato.html

In an email from Crossrail:
Quote
Crossrail is using Automatic Train Operation (ATO) in the central area from Ealing Broadway to Abbey Wood and up to Stratford station where it can be integrated with current automatic systems.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Boppy on October 21, 2010, 02:52:49 pm
Crossrail delayed by over a year?

http://www.building.co.uk/news/crossrail-delayed-by-over-a-year/5007595.article

To now open in 2019 only when it is all complete.

"Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor of London^s transport adviser, said that Crossrail would not open to the public with just the central section completed."

Why not?  Surely it would be good to have the shortened route opened first to iron out problems?  It could potentially generate revenue and thereby reduce costs?

Boppy.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on October 21, 2010, 02:54:16 pm
So the order for the trains can be delayed until the last moment?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on October 21, 2010, 03:17:42 pm
Crossrail delayed by over a year?

http://www.building.co.uk/news/crossrail-delayed-by-over-a-year/5007595.article

To now open in 2019 only when it is all complete.

"Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor of London^s transport adviser, said that Crossrail would not open to the public with just the central section completed."

Why not?  Surely it would be good to have the shortened route opened first to iron out problems?  It could potentially generate revenue and thereby reduce costs?

Boppy.

Depends how you define Central Section doesn't it, and what order the tunnelling actually gets done in.  If the 'central section' only runs from Paddington to Whitechapel (for example), maybe they think they haven't got the capacity to deal with whole train loads of pax getting on or off there?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 26, 2010, 05:49:26 pm
A bit of technical information describing just why there's a multitude of orange heavy plant equipment working behind Royal Oak tube station.

http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/construction-news/costain-and-skanska-crossrail-portal-project-underway (http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/construction-news/costain-and-skanska-crossrail-portal-project-underway)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Boppy on October 27, 2010, 11:08:24 am
Cheers for that link IndustryInsider.

The people working in the new Kingdom Street towers must have a nice view of the progress.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Pedros on October 27, 2010, 11:33:02 am
When I was working in London, my office was on the 11th floor of CentrePoint and overlooked the works at Tottenham Court Road.  It was fascinating watching the Astoria come down (very slowly) followed by continuous drilling, digging holes, filling in holes and general bashing about.  The prospect of working on a building site for the next 5+ years finally drove us out of the building.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 18, 2010, 11:58:40 am
A dozen or so new artists impressions of the new Crossrail stations have been released:

http://londonist.com/2010/11/crossrail_new_station_designs_revea.php (http://londonist.com/2010/11/crossrail_new_station_designs_revea.php)

You can certainly see where a lot of the money is going as even with some budgetary cuts, the stations still all look magnificent!  For those who can't get their bearings, the first picture at Paddington is taken from a vantage point where all you would currently see is the taxi rank.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: devon_metro on November 18, 2010, 01:00:41 pm
Looks spectacular. Resembles the JLE in many extents.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Boppy on November 18, 2010, 01:02:47 pm
Some additional ones on the gallery here:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/mayor-rail-minister-unveil-new-crossrail-station-designs-to-shape-future-london-1

Including a cut-away of the Paddington Crossrail station.

Boppy.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 30, 2011, 10:18:21 pm
Crossrail have announced that Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi and Siemens have been short-listed as builders for the new Class 345 Crossrail units.
 
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/crossrail-issues-rolling-stock-shortlist.html (http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/crossrail-issues-rolling-stock-shortlist.html)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 17, 2011, 04:18:31 pm
Network Rail have announced that Aecom have landed the contract to modify the stations west of Paddington on the GWML.  Work to start late next year.  The link below gives a summary of the works required at each station, which vary from hardly anything at Hanwell (due to it's protected status?), to quite major works at places like Hayes & Harlington including a new bay platform, all other platforms extended, the island platform widened, lifts, canopies and a new station building.  At Slough the west end bay platform for the Slough to Reading shuttle service is mentioned, which, along with alterations at Maidenhead, will hopefully be altered when (I say when because if they don't, then it's one of the most ridiculous decisions ever!) extention of Crossrail to Reading is announced.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2011/05/17/aecom-lands-design-job-for-13-crossrail-stations/ (http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2011/05/17/aecom-lands-design-job-for-13-crossrail-stations/)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on May 17, 2011, 06:05:26 pm
  At Slough the west end bay platform for the Slough to Reading shuttle service is mentioned, which, along with alterations at Maidenhead, will hopefully be altered when (I say when because if they don't, then it's one of the most ridiculous decisions ever!) extention of Crossrail to Reading is announced.

I agree with you 100% it would be a criminal waste of money to build the bay platform at Slough and the turnback sidings at Maidenhead.

Hopefully GWML electrification will just tie into Crossrail's contribution from Hayes to Maidenhead and the wires will be available to Reading before Crossrail tunnelling is finished.

As far as Taplow is concerned it's not Crossrail we want, but the wires. However it is very hard to convince people that you don't need Crosssrail but the wores as far West as possible.

So why not a Bristol to Norwich IEP, or is that too radical!

We are having an enviromental study by Crossrail of rare plants and animals around the Manor at Slough. Are rats a protected species?   


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bobm on May 17, 2011, 06:21:45 pm
So why not a Bristol to Norwich IEP, or is that too radical

I remember when Anglia ran their Crossrail service from Basingstoke to Norwich. Very few wanted to travel end to end and the inevitable delays as it went via Stratford made it unattractive for short journeys. It's a sad fact that while through services can be attractive they are at the mercy of potential bigger delays. If there's a large market for end to end or nearly end to end journeys this can redress the balance but if not splitting the service into shorter sections can be more beneficial.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on May 17, 2011, 06:34:18 pm
I agree the Norwich Basingstoke service was a flop with delays on the North London lines and having to use 170's because less than a mile of the route was not electrified.

But that's the beauty of Crossrail it's a through tunnel. Any train can pop into the tunnel (OK given compatible signalling which may be tricky and very expensive) at Padd stop all stations and pop out near Stratford and run onto the GE.

It gives some interesting shorter through journey possibilities Swindon to Chelmsford, Reading to Colchester etc. I am sure they would be atrractive to some people.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on May 17, 2011, 06:42:46 pm
It's an interesting discussion point, because AIUI the 24 tph Crossrail won't necessarily run all day, just like Thameslink, and will reduce frequency slightly in the offpeak.  As long as such a service could keep up with Crossrail spec acceleration and station dwell times, then a couple per hour off peak would surely be feasible? 

Although on second thoughts with Crossrail having platform edge doors perhaps that should be identical stock or maybe the solution is to dedicate the service to long distance and be non - stop between say Stratford and Ealing Broadway.  :-\

Paul

 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 17, 2011, 06:55:51 pm
Weekends, when there's a lot less emphasis on people getting to and from 'the City', could also possibly open up some paths to some more radical thinking with longer distance trains.  I suspect though, initially at least, it'll be a standard clock-face timetable most of the day, a few extra trains in the peak, journey times from the extremities quite slow (but at least direct), with the major benefit being the massive, and badly needed, increase in capacity.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on May 17, 2011, 09:19:29 pm
I like the pipe dreaming on this site  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on May 17, 2011, 10:37:39 pm
I like the pipe dreaming on this site  ;D

Tunnel dreaming surely?   ;D

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on May 18, 2011, 07:18:43 am
Pardon my ignorance - at Paddington, where are the taxis going to be moved to?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: dog box on May 18, 2011, 08:48:42 am
somewhere over by span 4


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 18, 2011, 08:52:49 am
On the taxi deck, the old Parcels deck. Sometime fairly soon too, I hear.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 18, 2011, 09:17:35 am
It's an interesting discussion point, because AIUI the 24 tph Crossrail won't necessarily run all day, just like Thameslink, and will reduce frequency slightly in the offpeak

18 / hour off-peak, isn't it?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Tim on May 18, 2011, 12:35:28 pm
I enjoy these pipe dreams too, but isn't one of the problems that crossrail will be within TfL (Boris) control.  Will TFL really be interested in running intercity trains?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 18, 2011, 12:55:07 pm
Livingstone might be....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Zoë on May 19, 2011, 08:17:59 am
18 / hour off-peak, isn't it?
Was 14 tph off peak last time I looked.  6 tph Shenfield to Paddington of which 2 tph continue to Maidenhead.  8 tph Abbey Wood to Paddington of which 4 tph continue to Heathrow.  The ORR refused the additional off peak paths requested.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on May 19, 2011, 08:50:26 am
The ORR refused the additional off peak paths requested.

What a mad mad world we live in!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on May 19, 2011, 08:52:45 am
Does anyone know if Crossrail is W10 loading gauge.

Container trains from Southampton to Felixstowe during the night.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Zoë on May 19, 2011, 08:55:41 am
The ORR refused the additional off peak paths requested.

What a mad mad world we live in!
Not that mad, the ORR concluded that there was no business case for the additional paths and there were valid capacity concerns from the Railfreight Group.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on May 19, 2011, 10:08:30 am
Does anyone know if Crossrail is W10 loading gauge.

Container trains from Southampton to Felixstowe during the night.
It is not being built for freight, is better to improve the NNL and routes south of the Thames for freight,  also I am not sure there is a need to run container traffic by rail between 2 sea ports, most of the Southampton and Felixstow traffic heads north into the midlands Scotland etc.  Also there will be no over night running as with all other underground railways thats when maintenance will be done


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on May 20, 2011, 10:04:50 pm
Also there will be no over night running as with all other underground railways thats when maintenance will be done

I wonder if Crossrail or FGW (or their successor) will run some sort of local overnight service between Paddington main line station and Reading as FGW do now, as this section is above ground.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 20, 2011, 10:12:32 pm
I suspect the relief lines will be in the Crossrail franchise, allowing competing fares twixt London & Reading. Hence its likely yto be a requirement of the Crossrail franchise, not the GW franchise.

IMHO, of course.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Zoë on May 20, 2011, 11:27:52 pm
I wonder if Crossrail or FGW (or their successor) will run some sort of local overnight service between Paddington main line station and Reading as FGW do now, as this section is above ground.
Crossrail is only going to Maindenhead though, not Reading.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on May 21, 2011, 02:32:16 am
Recent post about Crossrail sum up the main problems with project.

Because it was planned to link the GWML and the GEML the problem arose that the GWML was only electrified as far as Hayes/Heathrow. They then costed extra the electrification Westward and ran out of money at Maidenhead. Hence the odd choice of Western terminus.

With the annoucement of GWML electrification the Western terminus can be anywhere from Oxford/Newbury/Bristol/Cardiff. Reading being the msot obvious.

Whilst Crossrail works East of the tunnel with 12tph taking over the existing local services from  Liverpool Street and 12tph terminating at the end of a new branch line at Abbey Wood, with the possibility of dual voltage trains going further East.

The GWML cannot accomodate 24 tph on the Relief lines West of the tunnel exit hence the need to turn back over 50% of the service at Westbourne Park with the need to build a non advertised station so that those left on a terminating train at Padd can get off and get back on to go back to Padd. Still it gives more track for the Branch Line Society to bash.

The complete dedication of the Relief Lines to Crossrail  is absurb and would be the complete misuse of a four track railway. It would be, I don't know a word strong enough, to try to run 125 HSTs/IEPs and 3000 t stone trains on the mainlines. Unless of course DaFT don't want freight trains.

My comment re Southampton Felixstow containers was based on somehthing I read that it can be quicker to offload the large trans ocean ships at Southampton forward the container to Felixstowe and reload on a smaller ship Rotterdamm. It saves the large ship having to call into Southamton and then flog up the Channel to Rotterdamm to have the rest of its containers unloaded. Thus it can be back at sea on its return journey several days sooner. Hence saving time, fuel and of course money.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 21, 2011, 07:06:39 am
I believe freight frim stone terminal is allowed gor under Crossrail?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on May 21, 2011, 08:27:17 am
The principle reason for Crossrail not going to Reading was the cost of remodeling Reading station also the immunisation of the signaling and telecoms past Ruscombe / Slough boundary the actual electrification costs are relatively small.

The Relief Lines will be principally used by Crossrail but not exclusively, its is not the same as say the District Line and the LTS between West Ham and Upminster where there is total separation.

There are quite a few years to run on both the Crossrail and GWML electrification projects, Crossrail being subject to an Act of Parliament therefore it is simpler as far as funding is concerned to keep to the limits set out in the Act, Crossrail funding is complex enough without adding the complication of extending it.   My personal opinion will be that Reading - London local services will be dealt with in the up and coming GW franchise tender where I believe all of the TV Lines may even be taken out of the main line franchise this could fit in with a reshape of the GE / WA lines where there has been some talk that some of the WA services could be handed over to TfL Overground.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on May 23, 2011, 04:46:29 pm
Pardon my ignorance - at Paddington, where are the taxis going to be moved to?

Found this while browsing today - pictures 7 and 9 in the 'gallery section' at the end of the page give a good idea of the taxi setup.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/stations/paddington/

Paul



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on May 23, 2011, 08:54:36 pm
Roger ford informed us in his latest newsletter now that Crossrail when it opens in 2018 could be cut back to Westbourne park. This is aparantly because of the signalling system or something. Any views on this?


http://groups.google.com/group/uk.railway/browse_thread/thread/a4b7e94b082b42fc#


 This information is in his latest newsleter which i havnt received a copy of yet, but this has been posted by a user on the uk railways group on google.

You can sign up to roger fords newsletter at:

http://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/Archive.htm



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 23, 2011, 09:16:42 pm
I've read that too....I think you could post a link to the thread on Google groups, or even the whole post as its on a public ng

Thanks for the sign-up pointer!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 26, 2011, 12:42:28 pm
Paddington's Crossrail station building contract has been awarded - the first station contract signed, though along with several other construction contracts, it has come in well under the guide price.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2011/07/26/contractors-knock-40-off-cost-of-crossrail-station-job/ (http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2011/07/26/contractors-knock-40-off-cost-of-crossrail-station-job/)

The more money saved the better I suppose - provided all these construction giants don't go bust as a result halfway through the job!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 26, 2011, 12:46:16 pm
The more money saved the better I suppose - provided all these construction giants don't go bust as a result halfway through the job!

There is a bit of famine of work especially for big projects like this so the giants are willing to reduce their prices


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on July 27, 2011, 07:38:19 pm
For goodness sake, when is common sense going to prevail?

14tph terminating at Paddington? Nonsense.

Let's have something like:
4tph to Tring/Milton Keynes locals
4tph Heathrow Express
4tph Chiltern area locals (Gerrards X, Harrow)

Shame about Airtrack as some Heathrow trains could be extended to Woking, taking the pressure off one of the busiest lines and stations (Surbiton).

Let's stop pretending Reading isn't there and extend Maidenhead trains to Reading, and West Drayton ones to Slough. The station's being redone and it's going to be electrified anyway. A bit of common sense.. PLEASE. Whichever bright spark thought stopping trains at West Drayton instead of Slough was a good idea should be sacked before it's too late.

As far as the rest of FGW's services are concerned, ALL calls apart from Slough and the odd Maidenhead should be AXED. Yes, I mean you, the Oxford slows! With the HeX out of the way, and no 90mph trains clogging up the fast lines after electrification, let's get the trains moving again!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 27, 2011, 07:56:02 pm
HEX remains post Crossrail


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on July 27, 2011, 08:13:06 pm
Dont the class 332's run at 100mph? i thought it was only the turbos that worked the services to great malvern which ran at 90mph?

I would extend  the West Drayton terminaters to Slough, maybe if the thames branches are wired they could be operated as part of crossrail.

Maybe the crossrail order should consist of a mixture of 3 & 5 carriage EMU's with the 5 carriage units running in pairs  on services to Heathrow Airport with the 3 carriage sets running in pairs on services to Maidenhead/Reading rute this allows them to split & attach at peak times so that through services can be provided to places such at Henley on thames, also i think extending the platforms would be easier at placess like Bourne end for 3 carriage trains would be cheaper than a 4 or 5 carriage train.


Then after that  the stopping services from Oxford running to Reading (possibility of interworking with the Reading- Rehill/Gatwick services perahps if the north downs infill is done?)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on July 28, 2011, 09:00:24 am


Let's stop pretending Reading isn't there and extend Maidenhead trains to Reading, and West Drayton ones to Slough. The station's being redone and it's going to be electrified anyway. A bit of common sense.. PLEASE. Whichever bright spark thought stopping trains at West Drayton instead of Slough was a good idea should be sacked before it's too late.
?

I agree with you entirely hhowever it's politics which bucket of our money is raided for which project.

Crossrail is basically a TFL Inner London Project to relieve the Cental Line it works East of London with alternate trains to Shenfiled and Abbey Wood. Although the GE people are objecting to arrivng in an Underground station at Liverpool street. Abbbey Wood provides a whole new link from North Kent straight to the City and West End.

It fails miserably West of Padd due to capacity problems on the GWML.

If you think about it West Drayton is the Greater London Boundary so TFL wouldn't want to run stoppers to Slough. And Maidenhed was chosen soley because that's where the money for teh wires ran out no railway logic at all as everyone knows even the Crossrail team Reading is the obvious Western Terminus on the GMWL

But 10 tph going West on the Relief lines out of Padd is too many wherever they terminate.

It would be a criminal waste of money if Crossrail were to build the turnback sidings at Maidenhead the money save not building them should be  transferred to teh gMWL budget but that's too hard for the "Bean Counters".


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 28, 2011, 11:11:51 am
And Maidenhed was chosen soley because that's where the money for teh wires ran out no railway logic at all as everyone knows even the Crossrail team Reading is the obvious Western Terminus on the GMWL

It would be a criminal waste of money if Crossrail were to build the turnback sidings at Maidenhead the money save not building them should be  transferred to teh gMWL budget but that's too hard for the "Bean Counters".

Eh? Agree that the money wasn't there to go to Reading, but Maidenhead already has a turnback siding that they can use, doersn't it? Nothing (except lengthening?) needed?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 28, 2011, 11:23:51 am
The plans look much more extensive than that:

From the Crossrail website: http://www.crossrail.co.uk/assets/library/document/0/original/0038-x-w25maidenstable.pdf (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/assets/library/document/0/original/0038-x-w25maidenstable.pdf)

"New stabling facilities will be constructed, comprising six
sidings and also staff accommodation buildings at the
western end of the site."



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 28, 2011, 11:25:18 am
oh, ok, thanks!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 28, 2011, 11:31:05 am
Sounds a little over-the-top, even if Crossrail does remain to Maidenhead only.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 28, 2011, 11:48:52 am
The Maidenhead plans have always looked to be a little more than just a turnback.  Perhaps enough stabling space will be provided for trains to terminate there and be cleaned overnight, in order to start the service up the next morning?

Paul   



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 28, 2011, 12:02:46 pm
Up to 10 units according to that link.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 28, 2011, 04:44:24 pm
Up to 10 units according to that link.

That would quite likely reduce to 4 or 5 trains now that they have confirmed that their units will be 200m fixed formation - originally they were going to be running as 2 x 5 car trains and splitting offpeak - many people thought this would be difficult to make work with underground platform edge doors.

The latest proposal in the London & SE RUS (final version published yesterday) is for 10 Crossrail trains to Heathrow, 6 on the GWML reliefs and eventually 8 onto the WCML slows 'via a new link'.  They suggest this will allow good connections from the WCML to Heathrow via the interchange at Old Oak Common.

Note that this is not indicated as 'pending approval from BAA' or anything like that - it definitely seems to read as the next big change to Crossrail...

Paul



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on July 28, 2011, 06:03:04 pm
I hope the plans for Maidenhead don't prevent an extension to Reading.

My main problem of it stopping at Reading is what do to with the reliefs between there and Reading. Anything stopping at Tyford on he slows would have to be switched to the fasts, causing a bottleneck and causing HSTs to put on the brakes.

The latest proposal is for 10 Crossrail trains to Heathrow, 6 on the GWML reliefs and eventually 8 onto the WCML slows 'via a new link'.

Good. When that's done, let's resurrect Airtrack and get them into South West London. I also hope Watford Junction is not served by Crossrail but by LU. The LO service should be AXED asap!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 29, 2011, 12:38:59 am
For goodness sake, when is common sense going to prevail?

14tph terminating at Paddington? Nonsense.

Let's have something like:
4tph to Tring/Milton Keynes locals
4tph Heathrow Express
4tph Chiltern area locals (Gerrards X, Harrow)

Shame about Airtrack as some Heathrow trains could be extended to Woking, taking the pressure off one of the busiest lines and stations (Surbiton).

Let's stop pretending Reading isn't there and extend Maidenhead trains to Reading, and West Drayton ones to Slough. The station's being redone and it's going to be electrified anyway. A bit of common sense.. PLEASE. Whichever bright spark thought stopping trains at West Drayton instead of Slough was a good idea should be sacked before it's too late.

As far as the rest of FGW's services are concerned, ALL calls apart from Slough and the odd Maidenhead should be AXED. Yes, I mean you, the Oxford slows! With the HeX out of the way, and no 90mph trains clogging up the fast lines after electrification, let's get the trains moving again!

Goodness, that's quite a wishlist!  Weren't you the one telling us all, before you had your little hiatus, that if the Tories got in at the election, then the first thing they'd do is AXE Crossrail and the GWML electrification?  Now you're demanding they spend Christ knows how much on enhancing it!?  ::)

As Paul points out, the possibility of reaching the WCML with Crossrail has been twigged by those at Network Rail, and I would say (in the medium term) this is the best bet of any extension.  With the HS2 line using the only sensible route to link up with the Chiltern Line then that's a non-starter unless HS2 gets shelved and the route through Park Royal isn't protected for it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Ollie on July 29, 2011, 03:39:57 am
let's resurrect Airtrack

Or maybe not :) Unless you can come up with a practical solution with the various level crossings on the line.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 29, 2011, 11:21:51 am
They do still seem to be suggesting running through T5 to terminate at Staines and Slough fortunately, without the full Airtrack service. 

If SWT could then divert their weekday Waterloo - Staines - Weybridge service to run to/from or even through Woking,  Staines could easily become a major Heathrow interchange without increasing current level crossing down times.  The latter problem appears to have only (financially) impossible solutions.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 29, 2011, 11:25:00 am
Here's the link to the London & South East RUS that Paul mentioned on the previous page of this thread:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?dir=\RUS%20Documents\Route%20Utilisation%20Strategies\RUS%20Generation%202\London%20and%20South%20East&pageid=0&root= (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?dir=\RUS%20Documents\Route%20Utilisation%20Strategies\RUS%20Generation%202\London%20and%20South%20East&pageid=0&root=)

It's a weighty document, but pages 104-111 detail the various options with regard to Paddington to Reading on the GWML.  One thing is clear though, Network Rail want Crossrail to go to Reading and for an announcement to be made soon!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Tim on July 29, 2011, 03:05:08 pm
let's resurrect Airtrack

Or maybe not :) Unless you can come up with a practical solution with the various level crossings on the line.

I think an alternative has been suggested which would join the two windsor stations and replace them with a new single station.  Then run take the heathrow trains on a short bit of new track to join the exisiting line from Windsor to Slough for connections to cross-rail


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 29, 2011, 04:38:28 pm
I think an alternative has been suggested which would join the two windsor stations and replace them with a new single station.  Then run take the heathrow trains on a short bit of new track to join the exisiting line from Windsor to Slough for connections to cross-rail

Well it has definitely been suggested:  http://windsorlink.net/

...and I think it's been around for a couple of years, but I reckon that DfT and Network Rail will have completely ignored it because it doesn't provide what passengers actually want at an affordable cost.  It doesn't even rate a negative comment in the latest RUSs, ie GWML and London and SE.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on July 29, 2011, 06:00:26 pm
I would suspect the vast majority of the money spent on Crossrail is on the tunnelling (or perhaps just Canary Wharf station :P ), so I would imagine sending services to the WCML slows would be relatively cheap. Just like extensions to Dartford (or preferably Ebbesfleet) and Reading.

Airtrack - I know there are the level crossings, but I'm not convinced enough time has been spent looking at it. Staines would be a good start. But a local service from Waterloo to Heathrow would take plenty of cars off the road.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on July 29, 2011, 06:09:02 pm
I would suspect the vast majority of the money spent on Crossrail is on the tunnelling (or perhaps just Canary Wharf station :P ), so I would imagine sending services to the WCML slows would be relatively cheap. Just like extensions to Dartford (or preferably Ebbesfleet) and Reading.

Airtrack - I know there are the level crossings, but I'm not convinced enough time has been spent looking at it. Staines would be a good start. But a local service from Waterloo to Heathrow would take plenty of cars off the road.

One  problem with Airtrack, is that it is a very good idea but funding was  a issue and hopefully perhaps it could be found to  bring back the scheme in a few years.

The main problem is in Richmond with the stupid council & Nimby's complaining about the level crossing's

Shame really as i would have liked to see Airtrack, I wonder if they would go ahead and build a western link into Heathrow Airport, perhaps a hourly Oxford - Reading - Heathrow Airport service? it would be a good use for those class 360's which are owned by BAA if they do get replaced by the crossrail service.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on July 29, 2011, 07:00:28 pm
The main problem is in Richmond with the stupid council & Nimby's complaining about the level crossing's

Sorry, but that's grossly unfair. Traffic congestion around level crossings on the proposed Airtrack route is already very bad. Airtrack would've made that much worse, particularly in Egham where it was predicted that on two of the town's level crossings the barriers would be down for 34 minutes in each hour.

There are already numerous public transport options for getting to Heathrow with CrossRail to come. Airtrack appeared to be a sop to affluent residents living south-west of London whose public transport options to Heathrow are the coaches from Reading or Woking or travelling via London. I don't have much sympathy for them. They already have an extensive commuter network to give them access to the existing Heathrow links. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on July 29, 2011, 07:01:52 pm
Ok perhaps i am being a bit unfair, and yes i do have some agreement with you consiering how good a public transport system they have around that area already.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Ollie on July 30, 2011, 03:35:30 am
The main problem is in Richmond with the stupid council & Nimby's complaining about the level crossing's
particularly in Egham where it was predicted that on two of the town's level crossings the barriers would be down for 34 minutes in each hour.

Similar figure was mentioned for the main level crossing in Wokingham (by the station)

The other 2 in  Wokingham wouldn't be down as often, but still a fair bit. Certainly not practical in the current state of the crossings. Which is why I mentioned if a solution was found it would be a good idea.

So I wouldn't say it's being Nimby's at all :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on July 30, 2011, 10:37:20 pm
Jst read part of the RUS which says that Network Rail want to run 10 crossrail trains per hour to Heathrow and 6 to Reading thus eliminating the need for some  or most of them to terminate at Paddington and to provide 4 extra fast trains between Paddington & Reading using the current Heathrow express paths.

A western link into Heathrow airport is also suggested (Perhaps if such a link is built and the heathrow express services are withdrawn after crossrail comes into affect perhaps it could make use of the class 332's)

Also a proposal to run 12 carriage trains to Newbury & Oxford.

I havent read the full  RUS yet but will be having a further browse through it tonight & tommorow. Makes for a interesting read.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: standclearplease on July 31, 2011, 10:31:23 am
A direct rail service between Reading and Heathrow would be very welcome indeed.




Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on July 31, 2011, 11:45:36 am
And i think a lot of people would use it. as for the question if there would be any paths for it.

I know that they propose running 6TPH between Paddington & Maidenhead/reading on the relief lines in addition to 10TPH to Heathrow Airport, so i suppose if the great western mainline i re-signalled then you could just about run a service although probably on a service every 30 minutes  or so on the  relief lines in between the crossrail services

 Maybe by extending some of the local  stopping services from Oxford which maybe 1 day might be extended to Milton Keynes etc.


I do agree with the idea of scrapping the Heathrow express services and using the paths to provide additional fast services between London Paddington & Reading.

I know there maybe a few people who would not be happy about the loss of heathrow express but wouldnt it be better to have very frequent services which run direct to central london & the city?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on July 31, 2011, 02:33:13 pm
After crossrail, the hex is redundant. However they'll want to keep it as it would still make money as people will fall for the con. I hope they see sense and axe it during the peaks... You could then run 4 IEPs per hour just from discot and reading. Then axe most didcot and reading stops on other trains!

Just like gatwick. Thameslink is quicker anyway now, and serves more of the city. But tourists and businessmen see the signs and get the credit card out. Often then to get the tube to kings cross or monument!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on July 31, 2011, 08:13:21 pm
If T5 ever became a through station it seems to me a possibility would be run a Alternate Abbey Wood. Shenfield all stations to Padd Ealing Broadway Hayes, T5 Slough Maidenhead Twyford Reading service 4 an hour or do do 2 on the ML lines Reading T5 Padd terminate.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on August 29, 2011, 10:24:10 pm
This has just been posted on UK railforums and i cant find  it here so i have posted a link:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/29/crossrail-train-manufacturing-contract



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on August 30, 2011, 07:51:59 am
Thanks for the link, Anthony215.

Why is it that artists impressions of new stations - shown to illustrate this article - show just a handful of people which if it were to be the typical scene would make the whole thing a white elephant?   (If people answer me on this, I may split it into a separate thread). Compare and contrast to the current number of passengers around - http://www.wellho.net/pix/bhhomea.jpg and http://www.wellho.net/pix/bhhome0.jpg



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 30, 2011, 08:19:39 am
The only problem with Bonmbardier getting the Crosrail contract is that we'll get a 378 deriative with longitutinal seats.

Maidoniands won't like that.

I remember seeing a Crossrail mock up in PAdd when the project was first mooted way back, and it was a lovely train. I seem to think  it was 2*2 seating in bays large windows etc.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 30, 2011, 08:41:29 am
Why is it that artists impressions of new stations - shown to illustrate this article - show just a handful of people which if it were to be the typical scene would make the whole thing a white elephant?   (If people answer me on this, I may split it into a separate thread). Compare and contrast to the current number of passengers around - http://www.wellho.net/pix/bhhomea.jpg and http://www.wellho.net/pix/bhhome0.jpg
To show that there will be NO queuing or waiting for trains hence plenty of seats etc, show full and packed platforms would indicate a poor service.

The only problem with Bonmbardier getting the Crosrail contract is that we'll get a 378 deriative with longitutinal seats.
Maidoniands won't like that.
I remember seeing a Crossrail mock up in PAdd when the project was first mooted way back, and it was a lovely train. I seem to think  it was 2*2 seating in bays large windows etc.

The manufacturer will irrelevant Crossrail will specify the seating density, standing space etc remember Crossrail is a "Metro service" while the the good people of Maidenhead may not be happy with longitudinal seating the Tap's will not be any happy as they will only have a few minuets less on board and not have the benefit of peak fasts


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Rhydgaled on August 30, 2011, 08:49:51 am
Or perhaps having fewer passengers is just done to make the station design more visible, or just make the scene look more assecticly pleasing?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on August 30, 2011, 10:00:21 am
The only problem with Bonmbardier getting the Crosrail contract is that we'll get a 378 deriative with longitutinal seats.

Maidoniands won't like that.

I remember seeing a Crossrail mock up in PAdd when the project was first mooted way back, and it was a lovely train. I seem to think  it was 2*2 seating in bays large windows etc.

I do hope it has 2+2 seating rather than the  london overground class 378 interior,  which i think would put a lot of people off using crossrail and they will instead cram onto other services.

Slightly off topic but when will we see network rail likely start installing the wires west of airport jct?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 30, 2011, 11:29:26 am
Slightly off topic but when will we see network rail likely start installing the wires west of airport jct?

Several years away yet.  The first wires to appear will be in the new depot being built west of Reading station due for completion in exactly two years time.  They'll not actually be connected to the juice for a while though.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 30, 2011, 11:48:49 am
The only problem with Bonmbardier getting the Crosrail contract is that we'll get a 378 deriative with longitutinal seats.

What a ridiculous statement to make.  The seating layout will be specified in the ITT, not chosen by Bombardier.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 30, 2011, 12:03:15 pm
Slightly off topic but when will we see network rail likely start installing the wires west of airport jct?

Several years away yet.  The first wires to appear will be in the new depot being built west of Reading station due for completion in exactly two years time.  They'll not actually be connected to the juice for a while though.
I believe that the banging in of masts in he ground and stringing of wires will look a bit random on the GWML.  It will not be done as start in the east and work west you could see masts appearing as soon as early 2013 (not much will happen next year in part due to the Olympics and the detailed design has yet to be done) you may even see parts west of Maidenhead as part of the GWML done before Crossrail east of Maidenhead is done.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 30, 2011, 12:42:05 pm
It will presumably make a lot of sense to 'bang the masts in' during the Reading Station works, especially those on the routes through the new relief line platfoms while they are still in the green zone... 

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on August 30, 2011, 08:30:18 pm
The masts will go in as they do major works....it would be silly not to do Reading during this redevelopment, for example. But otherwise -

I believe that the banging in of masts in he ground and stringing of wires will look a bit random on the GWML.  It will not be done as start in the east and work west you could see masts appearing as soon as early 2013 (not much will happen next year in part due to the Olympics and the detailed design has yet to be done) you may even see parts west of Maidenhead as part of the GWML done before Crossrail east of Maidenhead is done.

Sorry, but please explain? I think they'll want to do the wires & probably the masts in one go, with equipment made specifically for new wire projects. Doing a few yards will complicate the use of this machinery....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 30, 2011, 09:14:23 pm
The masts will go in as they do major works....it would be silly not to do Reading during this redevelopment, for example. But otherwise -

I believe that the banging in of masts in he ground and stringing of wires will look a bit random on the GWML.  It will not be done as start in the east and work west you could see masts appearing as soon as early 2013 (not much will happen next year in part due to the Olympics and the detailed design has yet to be done) you may even see parts west of Maidenhead as part of the GWML done before Crossrail east of Maidenhead is done.

Sorry, but please explain? I think they'll want to do the wires & probably the masts in one go, with equipment made specifically for new wire projects. Doing a few yards will complicate the use of this machinery....

It will not be a few yards at a time, it will be many miles, there will likely be gaps which get filled in so as to take advantage of possessions and or  blockade; as you said Reading will be the first area to see electrification works from what I understand from the team doing the project most likely just foundations for the bolted base masts


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 31, 2011, 10:25:50 am

What a ridiculous statement to make.  The seating layout will be specified in the ITT, not chosen by Bombardier.

Paul

No agree  but TFL will have alot to say about the ITT and they have been going for longitudinal seats in both the 378 and the new S stock etc.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 12, 2011, 06:55:43 pm
A Reading MP has voiced his concerns that extending Crossrail to Reading might not be a good idea.  Some silly arguments used if you ask me, and some sloppy journalism suggesting that Crossrail is more about linking Maidenhead and the west with Acton, rather than central London and Canary Wharf/East London!  I suggest that if any of his constituents that visit this website agree, they write to tell him where he's got it wrong.

http://www.itv.com/meridian-west/mp-no-to-crossrail09573/ (http://www.itv.com/meridian-west/mp-no-to-crossrail09573/)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on September 12, 2011, 06:59:27 pm
Rolls eyes. ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 13, 2011, 04:58:10 pm
I've always thought of Crossrail at Reading as having a similar role to SWT at Reading. 

It's an option for other possible journeys, but not that relevant to people simply wanting to get to London as fast as possible.  As we know from the GW RUS, NR are suggesting both Crossrail to Reading  and additional peak only fast line services into Paddington.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 13, 2011, 05:05:03 pm
But there'll be competition across fares - far cheaper on Crossrail. Splut tge commuters, especially if yoy can save ^1000 upwards with a Crossrail season. Cut overcrowding on GW HSTs/IEPs too


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on September 13, 2011, 06:12:32 pm
The fundamental problem with Crossrail where ever it terminates West of Eastbourne Terrace/Paddington it doesn't work. Crossrail is an S Bahn service or Paris RE service All stations end to end. 

You can't have 24 trains an hour coming out of the tunnel with only capacity for 10tph on the Relief Lines West of Padd. As they used to say in school 24 into 10 doesn't go!

However you timetable the service it means basically Reading will only get an all stations service to serve intermediate stations  most of the day instead of off Peak Semis to Hayes and Ealing, Twyford and Maidenhead will basically get only get all stations, certainly off peak, they may be lucky and get a couple of peak hour. What Slough gets I'm not sure does it still get the Off Peak Oxfords?

What we in the TV want is an electric railway to Swansea and Plymouth. If a few trains provide a through service down the Crossrail tunnels all well and good but not at the expense of disrupting the existing commuter flows in teh Thames Valley.       



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 13, 2011, 07:57:45 pm
The fundamental problem with Crossrail where ever it terminates West of Eastbourne Terrace/Paddington it doesn't work. Crossrail is an S Bahn service or Paris RE service All stations end to end. 

You can't have 24 trains an hour coming out of the tunnel with only capacity for 10tph on the Relief Lines West of Padd. As they used to say in school 24 into 10 doesn't go!

Isn't that exactly why NR's London and SE RUS is now proposing a totally different solution, with destinations for all 24 tph found?  i.e. 10 tph Heathrow and beyond (eg Staines), 6 tph GWML and 8 tph WCML inner suburbans?

It wouldn't surprise me if a major review of rolling stock needs is underway, partly explaining the sudden delays to the procurement process, which the media have reported as a pro-Bombardier result - but that could just as easily be a sheer coincidence...
 
Paul 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 14, 2011, 09:32:04 am
You can't have 24 trains an hour coming out of the tunnel with only capacity for 10tph on the Relief Lines West of Padd.

The remainder will terminate in OOC & reverse won't they?

Quote
What Slough gets I'm not sure does it still get the Off Peak Oxfords?

Twice an hour, yes.

Quote
What we in the TV want is an electric railway to Swansea and Plymouth.

Who's this 'we'?....I've not seen any demand for it currently, so why will it suddenly start up?

Quote
If a few trains provide a through service down the Crossrail tunnels all well and good but not at the expense of disrupting the existing commuter flows in teh Thames Valley.

If it costs a *lot* less, I can see people using an all stations from Reading. Say a ^1500/year saving on an annual ticket....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 14, 2011, 03:36:37 pm
But there'll be competition across fares - far cheaper on Crossrail.

Will there be competition on fares necessarily?  Has it been confirmed that Crossrail is to be a seperate franchise?  Surely there's the possibility that it might be combined with either the Greater Western or Greater Anglian franchises in whatever future form they take?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 14, 2011, 04:20:58 pm
Isn't CrossRail going to be part of TfL?....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 14, 2011, 04:49:41 pm
Having done a bit of digging, in a manner of speaking it is, yes.  There'll be a Crossrail Train Operating Concession (CTOC) in a similar vein to the London Overground concession.  Though the exact difference between a concession and a franchise is not a great deal on the face of it.  So there would be nothing stopping FGW from winning the Greater Western Franchise and then bidding sucessfully to run the CTOC, and if they did I wonder whether there would be a seperate fares structure as you say. 

There probably isn't a precedent as such, but by comparison, the fares seem to be all the same over routes which both London Overground and another franchisee runs, such as Clapham Junction to Kensington Olympia, or New Cross Gate to Norwood Junction.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Zoë on September 14, 2011, 05:03:52 pm
Having done a bit of digging, in a manner of speaking it is, yes.  There'll be a Crossrail Train Operating Concession (CTOC) in a similar vein to the London Overground concession.  Though the exact difference between a concession and a franchise is not a great deal on the face of it.  So there would be nothing stopping FGW from winning the Greater Western Franchise and then bidding sucessfully to run the CTOC, and if they did I wonder whether there would be a seperate fares structure as you say.
One key difference with the London Overground concession is that LOROL simply run the trains for TfL with TfL setting the fares, train frequencies and branding, if this is the model to be followed then the winner of the concession would not be able to set their own fares even if they also operated the Greater Western franchise.  I can't see justification for TfL to set the fares as far as Maidenhead though as it's well outside their area so maybe FGW fares will apply outside of the zones regardless of who wins the concession in the same way that London Midland fares apply from London to Watford Junction.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 14, 2011, 05:17:02 pm
Both valid points there.

I'm sure I read somewhere in an interview that there was intended to be fare separation, and if Reading was the terminus, whether Oyster would be permitted out that far? I guess we're all waiting for this info to emerge - Government needing to decide whether its MAI or RDG first.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on September 14, 2011, 05:33:09 pm
Perhaps Reading will have to become "Zone R". ::)

Will there be announcements on FGW HSTs "please note, TfL tickets and Oyster cards are not valid on this train".

Or will touching in/out at Paddington Mainline gateline result in a higher fare deduction?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Zoë on September 14, 2011, 05:36:32 pm
Perhaps Reading will have to become "Zone R".
Or it could simply be outside the zones with FGW set fares applying.  TfL could use a "Zone R" internally but there would be no need for it to be displayed to the public in the same way that TfL internally use Zone W for Watford Junction which is outside the zones and has fares set by London Midland.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on September 15, 2011, 09:15:34 am
In answer to Chris B's points.

Yes 14 tph out of 24 will terminate at Eastbourne Terrace and emptied and doors shut. See thread on Oxford terminators. They are already making provision for overcarries with a platform at Westbounre Park!

"What we in the TV want is an electric railway to Swansea and Plymouth.

Who's this 'we'?....I've not seen any demand for it currently, so why will it suddenly start up"

What I should have said is "I" want the wires because an electric railway is a better railway. Cleaner faster plus diesels going to run out etc. Of course there's the problem with the Brunel insulters in Maidenhead who don't want wires on his bridge.

As to fares don't forget not only Reading but Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow Burnham Slough Langley  and Iver are all outside Zone 6 and so far Oyster. So separate Crossrail fares is going to cause confusion to say the least ie Will Crossrail fares be available on the fast Oxfords to Slough change for Taplow?.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 15, 2011, 10:37:01 am
In answer to Chris B's points.

Yes 14 tph out of 24 will terminate at Eastbourne Terrace and emptied and doors shut. See thread on Oxford terminators. They are already making provision for overcarries with a platform at Westbounre Park!

I believe the idea is that all Westbourne Park turnback sidings will be signalled to passenger standards with platforms, and the odd overcarry to the sidings will be accepted - with 24 tph arriving at Paddington LL from the core route, which are 10 cars long, there won't be time to go through the train checking for passengers within the designed dwell time - unless maybe you have 10 staff on the platform doing a coach each...

Quote
As to fares don't forget not only Reading but Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow Burnham Slough Langley  and Iver are all outside Zone 6 and so far Oyster. So separate Crossrail fares is going to cause confusion to say the least ie Will Crossrail fares be available on the fast Oxfords to Slough change for Taplow?.

There is no fundamental difference to the current situation on FGW (and indeed on most TOCs) where Oyster PAYG fares are available only to some last station either in or outside the zones, with trains carrying on beyond?

What you may get beyond the zones is something like the WCML where there are currently either Any Permitted or LM only fares and seasons.

But in either case I can't see a new 'fares problem' developing here - the only decision to be made is where the final Oyster PAYG station is on the line.  The current examples of Watford Junction (LM) and Grays/Chafford Hundred/Purfleet/Ockenden (c2c) are outside the numbered zones and Oyster PAYG just charges the appropriate TOC fare for those destinations already - and they are now discussing extending Oyster PAYG up the FCC lines to places like Welwyn GC...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 15, 2011, 11:01:23 am
No, they wouldn't. You would stay on Crossrail all the way


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 15, 2011, 12:00:08 pm
No, they wouldn't. You would stay on Crossrail all the way
Is that a reply to something I wrote?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 15, 2011, 12:14:12 pm
No, sorry - its in answer to the qiestion in your quote which you also answered.

You are correct in referring to the LM example on the WCML


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: broadgage on September 19, 2011, 03:04:34 pm

What a ridiculous statement to make.  The seating layout will be specified in the ITT, not chosen by Bombardier.

Paul

No agree  but TFL will have alot to say about the ITT and they have been going for longitudinal seats in both the 378 and the new S stock etc.

As pointed out, the train builder does not choose the seating layout.

BUT experience of other new trains suggests that the seating layout chosen will be a backward step.
Either longitudinal with mainly standing space, or at best high density bus style with minimal legroom.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 19, 2011, 03:07:33 pm
S-Stock layout - long distance, Maidenhead to Abbey Wood....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on September 20, 2011, 06:16:13 pm
The thameslink order looks to be getting delayed now:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/09/13-now-dft-faces-legal-challenge.html

This is going to cause a knock on effect for Northern and FGW

Maybe they should have just given the contract to Hitachi to build at their new uk plant. Are we going to see a challnge to IEP now?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 20, 2011, 06:27:54 pm
That article is most definitely NOT announcing a delay - and AFAICT the DfT is not yet 'facing a legal challenge'.  The article is discussing what might happen if a trade union does happen to succeed in its call for a judicial review. That is by no means a foregone conclusion.
 
I suggest you read the article again properly...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on September 20, 2011, 06:33:05 pm
Yes i just posted the link after seing it posted on uk railforums and others.

Sorry about that.

Personallyy i think Bombardier should just accept it and move on as they said they were planning on laying workers off even if they had won the order. Hopefully Bombardier will get their house in order for  the crossrail bid.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on September 20, 2011, 07:35:00 pm
Hopefully Bombardier will get their house in order for  the crossrail bid.

They need to up their game. The LM 172s were ordered in November 2007 and won't be fully delivered 4 years later. They were also allegedly plagued with problems during testing. I also think FCC's trains were delivered late and had teething problems. Shame, because I actually prefer their designs to Desiros.

Yes to British jobs for British workers, but we still need reliable trains for both Thameslink and Crossrail on time!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 27, 2011, 07:14:07 pm
The tunnel portals for the Royal Oak end of the Crossrail tunnel are pretty much complete.  Here is a picture I took this morning showing the work completed, with the slope down to the portal entrances which are just before Royal Oak LUL station which can be seen in the distance.

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6178/6189176695_c531b4a963_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 27, 2011, 08:14:51 pm
I've been wondering about the various new Crossrail junctions, but instead of spending hours searching through Crossrail's drawings I thought I'd just ask here.

There is definitely a new flyover at Airport Jn, so that both the main and reliefs have grade separation there.

There is definitely a new diveunder at Acton Yard, so that the up relief doesn't conflict with freight movements to/from the relief lines.

But, surely there has to be a further junction where the up relief line into Paddington crosses the down line from the Crossrail tunnels - is this to be grade separated?   Also, on current plans there is still the Westbourne Park turnback facility - for 14 tph.  Will that be between the running lines, or will it be on one side?

Loads of scope for flat junction conflicts along there, have they actually covered all the options?

Paul
 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 27, 2011, 08:42:12 pm
I've been wondering about the various new Crossrail junctions, but instead of spending hours searching through Crossrail's drawings I thought I'd just ask here.

There is definitely a new flyover at Airport Jn, so that both the main and reliefs have grade separation there.

There is definitely a new diveunder at Acton Yard, so that the up relief doesn't conflict with freight movements to/from the relief lines.

But, surely there has to be a further junction where the up relief line into Paddington crosses the down line from the Crossrail tunnels - is this to be grade separated?   Also, on current plans there is still the Westbourne Park turnback facility - for 14 tph.  Will that be between the running lines, or will it be on one side?

Loads of scope for flat junction conflicts along there, have they actually covered all the options?

Paul
 

As Crossrail will be the (virtually) sole user of the Relief Lines Crossrail trains will run straight into the tunnels from the Reliefs at Westbourne Park so no conflict as all other services will run on the Mains Lines 1 to 4 at Padd


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 27, 2011, 09:06:21 pm
But whatever GW stopping service remains, and that's 6tph in the peaks according to Crossrail's current website,  it will still have to do a flat crossing to get past the Crossrail down lines somewhere west of Westbourne Park surely?

Paul



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 27, 2011, 10:31:50 pm
But whatever GW stopping service remains, and that's 6tph in the peaks according to Crossrail's current website,  it will still have to do a flat crossing to get past the Crossrail down lines somewhere west of Westbourne Park surely?

Paul


What stopping services?  If the West terminal remains at Maidenhead there will be Padd Slough Maidenhead stoppers only, if Crossrail terminates at Reading then the Maidenhead stop will go, the Greenfords will terminate in a new Bay at West Ealing all no Crossrail services will use Lines 1 to 4


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 28, 2011, 10:36:16 am
What stopping services?  If the West terminal remains at Maidenhead there will be Padd Slough Maidenhead stoppers only, if Crossrail terminates at Reading then the Maidenhead stop will go, the Greenfords will terminate in a new Bay at West Ealing all no Crossrail services will use Lines 1 to 4

I'm suggesting GW stopping services having to transfer from the reliefs to lines 1-4 to get into Paddington.

These:
 
Morning peak Crossrail services to Central London:
4 trains per hour from Heathrow Airport;
4 trains per hour from Maidenhead; and
2 trains per hour from West Drayton
 
Other operators services:
2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway to Paddington;
2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow, Burnham and terminating at Slough;
1 through train from Henley on Thames to Paddington; and
1 through train from Bourne End to Paddington

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/western-section/   (scroll down)

I have found a reasonable track diagram now - which presumably agrees with your earlier explanation?  But could be of academic interest eventually with all these proposals in the London and SE RUS for additional Heathrow services, and a WCML connection.  Also, it does show the Westbourne Park reversing sidings between the Crossrail lines as I expected.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-xrail-appx2_single_line_GW.pdf

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on September 28, 2011, 11:48:24 am
2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow, Burnham and terminating at Slough;

Well that wrecks the Westbound service from Taplow it means to get anywhere West and North West one will have to change at both Maidenhead and Reading instead of just Reading.

Also the only services to London will be all stations!

Lets hope common sense prevails and Crossrail goes to Reading and they don't waste money on turnback sidings at Maidenhead. Hopefully the wires will up to Reading and we'll have had 319s in service long before the first Crossrail train pops it's head out of the tunnel.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on September 28, 2011, 12:49:19 pm
2 trains per hour from Reading calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow, Burnham and terminating at Slough;

Well that wrecks the Westbound service from Taplow it means to get anywhere West and North West one will have to change at both Maidenhead and Reading instead of just Reading.

I only struck that line through because it doesn't go into Paddington, not because it isn't running...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on September 28, 2011, 12:58:17 pm
Sorry misunderstood, but it's still daft DaFT policy terminating Crossrail at Maidenhead


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 01, 2011, 10:09:10 am
I think that the link Paul has provided really should be taken with a pinch of salt.  For example, I see it states West Drayton will only get two trains an hour off-peak which is half the current frequency, and that Hanwell is only planned to get 2 trains in the peak (as now) after the Crossrail service begins.  I'd expect both to receive better services than that.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on October 01, 2011, 02:08:39 pm
I think that the link Paul has provided really should be taken with a pinch of salt.  For example, I see it states West Drayton will only get two trains an hour off-peak which is half the current frequency, and that Hanwell is only planned to get 2 trains in the peak (as now) after the Crossrail service begins.  I'd expect both to receive better services than that.

I tend to agree - I'm sure the eventual service will be completely different, I'd assume more like the London and SE RUS describes it. 

Call me an optimist if needed, but I suspect one of the underlying reasons for the recently announced delay in the rolling stock tender process is that the number of units needs to allow for whatever different (and yet to be announced) service pattern they eventually decide on...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on October 01, 2011, 06:05:57 pm
Optimist! :-)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 03, 2011, 11:04:50 am
I had been under the impression for some time that Crossrail would call at all stations, which I thought would increase journey times. But looking at that link from Crossrail, I see that just as now, some trains will not call at all stations.

I hope they increase the off peak frequencies for West Drayton and beyond.
4tph for Heathrow + 4tph Express to Heathrow does seem excessive. The existing Connect services to Heathrow empty out at Hayes leaving only a few people continuing.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 03, 2011, 11:17:11 am
It's been mentioned before, but I'd probably wager a small amount of money on Heathrow Express, at least in its current form, ceasing to exist after Crossrail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Zoë on October 05, 2011, 01:27:22 pm
I had been under the impression for some time that Crossrail would call at all stations, which I thought would increase journey times. But looking at that link from Crossrail, I see that just as now, some trains will not call at all stations.

I hope they increase the off peak frequencies for West Drayton and beyond.
West Drayton would I expect be served by the 2 tph Paddington to Reading FGW service in addition to the 2 tph Crossrail service.  It had been planned to run more than 2 tph off peak to Maidenhead but the additional paths were rejected by the ORR.  Even if existing frequencies are retained west of Paddington there will still likely be an increase in capacity due to longer trains.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 18, 2011, 10:02:01 am
A working group has been set up by the business membership organisation London First to look at the Crossrail 2 scheme, which has been proposed to run from the Chelsea to Hackney areas:

http://www.london-first.co.uk/news/detail.asp?record=227 (http://www.london-first.co.uk/news/detail.asp?record=227)

Two railway heavyweights are part of the group, the chairman is a chap called Andrew Adonis, who you may have heard of!  First's CEO Tim O'Toole involved as well.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on October 18, 2011, 11:32:59 am
You certainly get the impression from the London and SE RUS, which TfL have had a big input to as well, that no one seriously believes Crossrail 2 will be built as a simple tube line, as often previously described.

I think people in authority are definitely coming round to the idea of it taking over the SWML inner suburbans inbound from Raynes Park, and connecting them to somewhere in the North East, whether that is a branch of the Central Line, or part of the West Anglia mainline remains to be seen. If it is ever successfully argued that Crossrail 1 should run to Reading, then you might also expect somewhere like Woking to be a target. 

I also think if you are going to the trouble of a new tunnel under London it may as well be for proper sized 200/240 m trains, we've probably seen the last of 'tube trains' for new construction...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 13, 2011, 09:31:21 pm
Interesting article about the Tunnel Boring Machines that are imminently arriving at Royal Oak:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/13/crossrail-unveils-machines-from-germany (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/13/crossrail-unveils-machines-from-germany)

On the ground at Royal Oak an overhead gantry crane and other facilities are reaching the end of construction to enable the TBM's to be re-assembled before launch next spring.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on December 14, 2011, 05:59:05 pm
On your way into Padd as you go past the old goods shed at Westbourne Park (where the gantry crane has been erected) just to the East of this you can see the first of the TBM cutting heads being put together it is laying flat on the ground.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on December 14, 2011, 08:25:14 pm
On your way into Padd as you go past the old goods shed at Westbourne Park (where the gantry crane has been erected) just to the East of this you can see the first of the TBM cutting heads being put together it is laying flat on the ground.

I hope they've chained it securely to a lamp post, what with these being boom times for 'metals recycling'...   ::)

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on December 14, 2011, 08:53:35 pm
On your way into Padd as you go past the old goods shed at Westbourne Park (where the gantry crane has been erected) just to the East of this you can see the first of the TBM cutting heads being put together it is laying flat on the ground.

I hope they've chained it securely to a lamp post, what with these being boom times for 'metals recycling'...   ::)

Paul
Would have to be a mahuesive lamp post  :o


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on December 15, 2011, 01:32:18 pm
Article about the Crossrail TBMs here that may be of interest:

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2011/in-pictures-the-crossrail-tbms/

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 15, 2011, 04:28:09 pm
Interesting reading, Paul.  Thanks.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Boppy on January 20, 2012, 10:13:00 am
Looks like 2 pieces of the tunnelling machine have arrived alongside the approach to Paddington.

There is a large white tent next to them too.  I guess this is the staging area where all the separate parts will be put together.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on January 20, 2012, 12:16:33 pm
There is a large white tent next to them too... 

That'll probably be anti-capitalist protesters evicted from the city...   ;D

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 20, 2012, 12:38:14 pm
Additional sidings should be appearing at Westbourne Park soon which will be used to take excavated soil to Wallesea up to five times a day from the summer onwards.  Routed from Westbourne Park via Park Royal, Drayton Green and Acton bank then down via Clapham.  Presumably these sidings will also take delivery by rail of the concrete tunnel lining segments from the construction site at Old Oak Common?

This press release is well worth a read for more information:
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/work-underway-at-wallasea-isl-to-receive-excavated-material-from-crossrail-tunnels-next-year (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/work-underway-at-wallasea-isl-to-receive-excavated-material-from-crossrail-tunnels-next-year)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on January 20, 2012, 02:11:07 pm
It's a bit misleading the trains are going to a jetty at Norhtfleet whilst the spoil goes on presuambly by ship to Wallsea Island in Essex.

I wondered why the route was given via Clapham Jn for Essex.

There is map of the route I assumme that the blue alternative route involves a reversal at Acton Wells Jn.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 31, 2012, 06:41:31 pm
The new taxi rank at Paddington will be opening in around two weeks.  Situated above platform 12, construction work has been taking place for over a year now.  Indeed, you can see the advanced state of the works above the H&C platforms at Paddington.  This will enable Eastbourne Terrace (the current taxi rank) to close so that the box for the new Crossrail station can be constructed over the next two years.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/construction-new-paddington-crossrail-station-steps-up-a-gear-from-next-month (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/construction-new-paddington-crossrail-station-steps-up-a-gear-from-next-month)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 09, 2012, 11:14:42 am
You can now cast your vote on what names the two TBM's will be given:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/voting-now-underway-to-name-crossrails-giant-tunnel-boring-machines (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/voting-now-underway-to-name-crossrails-giant-tunnel-boring-machines)

I quite like 'Mary' and 'Sophia' as a homage to the wives of Isambard and Marc Brunel, but then I also quite like 'Pat' and 'Peggy' after the two Eastenders characters!



Meanwhile, the tunnel segment plant at Old Oak Common is now in full operation:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/tunnel-segment-plant-begins-full-operations-creates-jobs-for-unemployed (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/tunnel-segment-plant-begins-full-operations-creates-jobs-for-unemployed)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on February 09, 2012, 10:43:52 pm
It's got to be Pat and Peggy! ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on February 09, 2012, 10:49:21 pm
You can now cast your vote on what names the two TBM's will be given:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/voting-now-underway-to-name-crossrails-giant-tunnel-boring-machines (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/voting-now-underway-to-name-crossrails-giant-tunnel-boring-machines)


Why are all the names female?  Isn't that a bit sexist?   How about Tom and Dick, in memory of WWII escape tunnels ...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Ollie on February 09, 2012, 11:37:09 pm
I can't find the original announcement from CrossRail, but I believe they said something about it being traditional/good luck or something.

Someone else might have a better answer :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 10, 2012, 04:04:59 pm
From the original Crossrail press release (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/crossrail-launches-competition-to-name-giant-tunnelling-machines):
Quote
Similar to sea going ships, tunnel boring machines traditionally have female names.

From the Crossrail competition terms and conditions (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/terms-conditions-crossrail-tunnel-boring-machine-naming-competition):
Quote
Suggested names for the tunnel boring machines (TBMs) must be female names.

 ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on February 11, 2012, 03:12:30 pm
In politically correct London though, by the time they get all ten TBMs in use, won't some of the names have to reflect the multicultural nature of modern society, ethnic minorities etc etc?   ...contd p94

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 28, 2012, 01:16:59 pm
The four shortlisted bidders for the Crossrail rolling stock and depot procurement were issued with tender documents at Crossrail today.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/crossrail-issues-rolling-stock-depot-tender (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/crossrail-issues-rolling-stock-depot-tender)

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/crossrail-rolling-stock-contract-invitations-to-negotiate-issued.html (http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/crossrail-rolling-stock-contract-invitations-to-negotiate-issued.html)

Contracts set to be awarded in Spring 2014, with the first trains entering service on the GEML section of Crossrail in 2017.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Phil on February 29, 2012, 03:29:22 pm
Quick reminder that the voting closes today for naming the tunnelling machines:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/tunnelling/naming-competition-vote

Apparently the names of two characters from "Eastenders" are well in the lead, which leaves me feeling rather left out, never having heard of either of them before.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on February 29, 2012, 04:22:59 pm
Thanks for the heads up Phil.  :D

Just voted for 'Mary' and 'Sophia'. Three times (different email addresses  :P)

Big fan of IKB. Not a big fan of EastEnders... Monarchy.... The Railway Children....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 13, 2012, 01:38:00 pm
Just voted for 'Mary' and 'Sophia'. Three times (different email addresses  :P)

Well your three different persona's helped to swing the vote and they're one of the three pairs of winners, but they haven't been chosen for the Royal Oak machines as the names 'Ada' and 'Phyllis' are now proudly carried by them.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/giant-tunnel-boring-machines-ready-to-start-crossrail-dig (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/giant-tunnel-boring-machines-ready-to-start-crossrail-dig)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on March 13, 2012, 04:38:57 pm
Picture of Ada and Phyllis taken from a HST on the approach to Paddington:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/102_0349.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 13, 2012, 06:00:26 pm
What are these PR people like?

They are saying the boring machines were 'revealed' today.

So they must have been hidden before?   ::)

They were 'unveiled' in an earlier press release in December - I guess they have to use every buzzword in the spinmaster's dictionary...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 13, 2012, 07:45:27 pm
Well, they need a bit of spin: those boring machines don't just pop up out of the ground, you know ...  :P ::) ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on March 16, 2012, 10:09:36 pm
I have read on WNXX that there has been some problems trying to fit the TBM's  under the steel framework  which is errected over the portal at the royal oak end.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on March 17, 2012, 07:12:52 am
I have read on WNXX that there has been some problems trying to fit the TBM's  under the steel framework  which is errected over the portal at the royal oak end.
I did notice the first TBM had gone so far and it is taller than one of the frames ................. ooooooooooops  ;D ............ but they are continuing with the fit out


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 03, 2012, 11:43:27 am
An article on the Crossrail project which is well worth a read:

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/the-big-story/what-lies-beneath-excavating-crossrails-tunnels/1012220.article#comments (http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/the-big-story/what-lies-beneath-excavating-crossrails-tunnels/1012220.article#comments)

Meanwhile a nice shiny 10-car length platform extension is nearing completion on the Down Main platform at Hayes & Harlington.  Not sure why that was chosen first, but with the exception of a bridge demolition near Iver it's the first sign of visible works on the GWML route.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 04, 2012, 10:53:48 am
Meanwhile a nice shiny 10-car length platform extension is nearing completion on the Down Main platform at Hayes & Harlington.  Not sure why that was chosen first, but with the exception of a bridge demolition near Iver it's the first sign of visible works on the GWML route.

Though the revised Airport Junction is hot on its heels.  You can see initial work on the retaining wall if you look left just as you pass under the flyover as you head away from London.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Press-Releases/NETWORK-RAIL-STARTS-WORK-FOR-HEATHROW-CROSSRAIL-SERVICES-1a41/SearchCategoryID-8.aspx (http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Press-Releases/NETWORK-RAIL-STARTS-WORK-FOR-HEATHROW-CROSSRAIL-SERVICES-1a41/SearchCategoryID-8.aspx)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Boppy on April 04, 2012, 01:21:33 pm
Having read the description of how this junction is to be changed I'm still having trouble picturing the new viaducts and track layout.  Is there a diagram of how it will finally look anywhere?

Thanks,

Boppy.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 04, 2012, 01:27:49 pm
This diagram, originally posted by Paul, shows the likely new layout.  It's certainly going to look quite different!

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-xrail-appx2_single_line_GW.pdf (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-xrail-appx2_single_line_GW.pdf)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 04, 2012, 11:02:48 pm
Phyllis has started her work:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/crossrails-first-tunnel-boring-machine-breaks-ground-at-royal-oak#.T6RRLcVG3YQ (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/crossrails-first-tunnel-boring-machine-breaks-ground-at-royal-oak#.T6RRLcVG3YQ)

The spoil conveyor system and loading sidings are also nearing completion, so it won't be long before the first spoil train leaves from Westbourne Park.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oxman on May 05, 2012, 12:20:33 am
I was struck by how pristine it all looks. Won't last, of course!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Boppy on May 08, 2012, 12:22:59 pm
Thanks IndustryInsider for pointing me towards Paul's diagram post.

I can now imagine how it will look and yes it does indeed appear quite a bit of work will be done to enable that Up Airport line as well.

Thanks,

Boppy.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on May 08, 2012, 06:43:37 pm
Also thanks for Paul's post. One little addition that I've always thought would increase operational flexibility would be to put a connection from the bay platform 5 at Hayes to the Hayes Goods loop there appears to be room over the canal bridge. It is only a short length and would need a short lenth of wire as well. It would mean a Down train  for the bay would cross at Southall West onto the goods loop and run to the bay and not run wrong line blocking the Up Relief as now. At the same time an Up train could leave the bay and depart Up Relief passing the incoming train which will already be on the goods loop.

Thus clearing the down relief at Southall West and only blocking the Up Releif for a crossing move rather than a wrong line run.

I reckon it would require  4 of these new signal units, two point motors and 2 new route indications on existing signals.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 09, 2012, 11:58:33 am
That would indeed be a more sensible layout, though that goods loop can often be occupied for several hours by stone trains going into, or waiting to leave, the Hayes Tarmac unloading siding.  It also acts as a run-round loop for other freight services.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on May 10, 2012, 10:17:14 pm
It's an unfortunate accident of the English language that these very interesting machines are called "boring machines". After all these years, dirt is now being dug! I look forward to getting on the train at Stapleton Road, and asking for "Tottenham Court Road, please".


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on May 10, 2012, 11:56:34 pm
It's an unfortunate accident of the English language that these very interesting machines are called "boring machines". After all these years, dirt is now being dug! I look forward to getting on the train at Stapleton Road, and asking for "Tottenham Court Road, please".

I doubt they'll be direct trains from Bristol.

Besides you'll just ask for London Terminals won't you? (or London Zone 1)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on May 11, 2012, 10:51:03 am
You can ask for a ticket to Tottenham Court Rd now, and if the seller has any idea at all he'll issue it to London Zone U1.  That is highly unlikely to change as a result of Crossrail, which will be a TfL service and likely to be under a similar pricing regime.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on May 11, 2012, 07:08:44 pm
Saw for the first time this afternoon a "muck away" train in the new sidings at Westbourne Park


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on May 14, 2012, 11:02:39 pm
66720? in sidings at 12:40 today,


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 21, 2012, 10:46:53 am
A working group has been set up by the business membership organisation London First to look at the Crossrail 2 scheme, which has been proposed to run from the Chelsea to Hackney areas:

http://www.london-first.co.uk/news/detail.asp?record=227 (http://www.london-first.co.uk/news/detail.asp?record=227)

Two railway heavyweights are part of the group, the chairman is a chap called Andrew Adonis, who you may have heard of!  First's CEO Tim O'Toole involved as well.

This working group has now delivered its interim report into Crossrail 2:

http://www.londonfirst.co.uk/documents/120515_Crossrail_2_-_Supporting_London%27s_growth_report.pdf (http://www.londonfirst.co.uk/documents/120515_Crossrail_2_-_Supporting_London%27s_growth_report.pdf)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on May 21, 2012, 11:55:00 am
Once again, a "report" that has taken months and probably costed the taxpayer millions has come up with nothing new.

Everything in that report was in the last one I read. Most of it could be derived from basic common sense.

And they don't even make a decision! They say it needs "consultation" when it is blindingly obvious that the SWML to West Anglia route is the best option and that the Tube line would be a wasted opportunity.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2012, 10:43:32 am
The first TBM has reached Paddington and the second has now set off from Royal Oak.  The excavation conveyor belt system can now be fully installed and the removal of excavated material can step up in pace.  Until now, excavated material has been moved by trucks from a conveyor half way up the Royal Oak Portal slope and moved to a holding area before being loaded onto rail wagons for removal.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/crossrails-first-tunnel-boring-machine-reaches-paddington#.UDSntKOQlt0 (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/crossrails-first-tunnel-boring-machine-reaches-paddington#.UDSntKOQlt0)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Andy W on August 22, 2012, 11:17:58 am
The first TBM has reached Paddington and the second has now set off from Royal Oak.  The excavation conveyor belt system can now be fully installed and the removal of excavated material can step up in pace.  Until now, excavated material has been moved by trucks from a conveyor half way up the Royal Oak Portal slope and moved to a holding area before being loaded onto rail wagons for removal.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/crossrails-first-tunnel-boring-machine-reaches-paddington#.UDSntKOQlt0 (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/crossrails-first-tunnel-boring-machine-reaches-paddington#.UDSntKOQlt0)

Boring II  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 19, 2012, 02:03:29 pm
Allow me to be 'boring' again, Andy!  ;)

You can now view actual and proposed progress of the two Royal Oak TBM's at the following link:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/near-you#.UFm5DFEw-mA (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/near-you#.UFm5DFEw-mA)


The spoil removal conveyors and sidings at Wesbourne Park are now in full swing.  Standing above the conveyors on the footbridge that leads off Westbourne Park Villas and watching the conveyors with their excavated material on, and imagining them running pretty much constantly for well over a year, makes you realise just how big a project Crossrail is!  Well worth a wander out there if you're in the general area.

Here's some snaps taken earlier this week, which show the conveyor systems carrying spoil and loading them on a rake of wagons in the newly completed sidings.  You can also see the network of temporary rail lines used to transport other materials to and from the tunnels:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8437/8002909080_f3dd55c41d_z.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8440/8002910284_84534b2158_z.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8438/8002905387_42eeb98ceb_z.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 19, 2012, 08:00:15 pm
Thanks II

It is truly a monster of a conveyor system


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 20, 2012, 11:56:15 am
Also happening is the lengthening of the Down Main platforms at West Drayton (just started) and Langley (just about to start), so that they will be able to handle Crossrail trains.  This follows the work to lengthen the Down Main platform at Hayes & Harlington earlier this year and has the added instant benefit of meaning that 6-car Turbos will be able to stop at all the main line platforms between Paddington and Slough, which gives extra flexibility on Sunday's when the Relief lines are closed due to engineering work, or at other times during service disruption.

Regular passengers on the route may like to check out the progress on the reconfiguration of Acton Yard, in readiness for construction of the dive under on the Up Relief, as well as the progress with the extra infrastructure at Airport Junction where the retaining wall leading to the bridge that will take the new track over the Up Relief is taking shape.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 27, 2012, 03:04:55 pm
Bit of an, erm, oops moment with the new conveyor system today!  Part of it has collapsed on top of a freight train that was loading up.  That's what's causing the delays/cancellations currently listed as safety checks between Paddington and Ealing Broadway as Lines 5 and 6 on the approaches to Paddington have been shut as the conveyor is listing badly towards them.  Hopefully nobody was injured, but there will be a while before proper spoil removal can resume I would imagine.

Here's a picture.  You can see what is the unloading chute actually resting on one of the wagons, and that about 30 metres of conveyor has been pulled on its side:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8175/8029704317_e6e868abd5_c.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 27, 2012, 04:31:00 pm
A mechanical failure like this on such a new system makes this a serious incident especially at the discharge head is manned when it is working, therefore it will have to be reported to the ORR's HMRI will want to investigate it (HMRI act the same as the HSE on railway related works), hopefully Crossrail will be allowed / able to stabilise the conveyor tonight otherwise the disruption will continue tomorrow.

Oh and think of the delay minuets attribution charge to Crossrail


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 27, 2012, 08:23:31 pm
Bit of an, erm, oops moment with the new conveyor system today!

A masterpiece of understatement there, II!  ;) ::) :o


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on September 27, 2012, 08:43:20 pm
Certainly a moment for a statement on the lines of "Wrong type of soil". As our industry insider says, hopefully no-one was injured, although a lot of pride will be at risk. Speculation is futile, but I expect that metallurgists, architects, and especially engineers will be furiously checking their figures about now. A few new tweaks will sort it out, then away we can go again. This may look an impressive bit of kit, but it's nothing that hasn't been done before on the surface of a coal mine.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 27, 2012, 09:17:04 pm
Taking a re-look at the photo posted by II it looks like the conveyor was loading the train, there, looks like, there are wagons loaded behind the engine and there is spoil on the conveyor belt; I have notice that they ensure the belts are empty when shut down.  There always seems to be men on at the various cutes on the system de clogging them, London clay is very claggie

I am speculating here but wonder if they have got the counter balancing of the loading head right, there seems to be quite a mass overhanging the wagons with very little on the opposite side.  It would also appear to be fortuitous that there were wagons below if the conveyor had failed without them there may be we could have been looking at total collapse of structures in that part of the conveyor system.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 28, 2012, 12:35:02 pm
Link to an online "Evening Standard" artical http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/waste-hopper-collapses-at-paddington-station-8189268.html (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/waste-hopper-collapses-at-paddington-station-8189268.html)

Would appear it failed under its own weight ......... opps  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: The SprinterMeister on October 01, 2012, 10:31:31 am
I am speculating here but wonder if they have got the counter balancing of the loading head right, there seems to be quite a mass overhanging the wagons with very little on the opposite side. 

If you were to add counterweights to the opposite side of the mechanism you would increase the total mass of the moveable part of the plant and the load carried on the longitudenal girders supporting it. Looks as if the load on the girders (particularly on the 'loading' side) may have been a problem as it is by the looks of things.....

The spoil train appears to have stopped the whole lot crashing onto the ground fortunately.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: broadgage on October 01, 2012, 10:40:37 am
I think that it fell during or shortly after very heavy rain.
The spoil would of course become heavier due to soaking up water, and pools of water may have built up on the conveyor behind each pile of spoil.
This should of course have been allowed for in the design, but given some defect in design, material, or construction, the extra weight of the rainwater probably explains why it fell then and not before.

Does anyone know for long tunneling may continue without the conveyor ?
There is on site storage for the spoil, but I dont know how long it would take to fill up.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 04, 2012, 01:13:48 pm
Bids for detailed design and construction of the western Crossrail stations have been invited from all the big construction players:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/network-rail-invites-bids-for-design-construction-crossrail-western-stations#.UG18GlGuVWg (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/network-rail-invites-bids-for-design-construction-crossrail-western-stations#.UG18GlGuVWg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 22, 2012, 04:24:44 pm
One of the two TBM's is on the move again, with the other set to restart next week:

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2012/10/22/tunnelling-work-restarts-on-crossrail/ (http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2012/10/22/tunnelling-work-restarts-on-crossrail/)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 15, 2012, 11:25:09 am
Here's a diagram of the Acton dive under which shows the revised track layout in a detail I've not seen before.  New lines are marked in red, whilst the old layout is marked with green dashes and unchanged lines are marked in black.

A few people I've spoken to were assuming the freight line would dive under the passenger line, but this diagram clearly shows that Acton reception sidings and goods loops have been slewed north to allow the up relief line to dive under the down goods line and up goods line (which will also link to the reception lines and all sidings).

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8345/8273696755_df7bab3dda_z.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on December 15, 2012, 11:47:23 am
I expect apart from the lack of space in the yard to install a ramp to/from the alternative of a freight dive under, it is far better operationally to have the heavier freights staying on the level, and the passenger units able to take a run up at least from the previous station!

I hadn't appreciated that the layout would allow parallel moves in and out of the yard - it could easily have been a single lead junction based on much of what has been done over the last 20 years or more.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on December 15, 2012, 11:57:20 am
So it keeps up Crossrail clear of freight from main lines and from down relief, but down Crossrail crosses main line freight on the level - have I read that right?  And up Crossrail can continue to use the surface lines too unless there's a conflicting freight movement?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on December 15, 2012, 11:58:21 am
If I've interpreted this correctly it also means that the diveunder will only be used when there is a conflicting movement coming out of the yard (and maybe going in to the yard too depending on how far the spur extends west of the dive under).

On another Crossrail topic, both the TBMs (Elizabeth and Victoria) have now set off westwards from Limmo Peninsula, and Phyllis is now under Hyde Park, so well on her way to Farringdon.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 15, 2012, 12:26:27 pm
I expect apart from the lack of space in the yard to install a ramp to/from the alternative of a freight dive under, it is far better operationally to have the heavier freights staying on the level, and the passenger units able to take a run up at least from the previous station!

I hadn't appreciated that the layout would allow parallel moves in and out of the yard - it could easily have been a single lead junction based on much of what has been done over the last 20 years or more.

Yes, I meant to say that in the text of my original post but forgot - starting a heavy freight from an incline would be a very bad idea!  Though in terms of the parallel moves it only permits a move into the yard (from the up relief) and from the down goods loop at the same time, not trains heading into the yard and out of the yard at the same time.  That might well be what you meant, but I thought I'd clarify.  Useful though.

And up Crossrail can continue to use the surface lines too unless there's a conflicting freight movement?

Yes, I hadn't realised that until you said.  Well spotted!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on December 15, 2012, 12:46:20 pm
My guess, the normal Crossrail path will be the UR only using the UP Dive-under when a train movement is need from Goods lines


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on December 15, 2012, 04:09:18 pm
Yes, I meant to say that in the text of my original post but forgot - starting a heavy freight from an incline would be a very bad idea!  Though in terms of the parallel moves it only permits a move into the yard (from the up relief) and from the down goods loop at the same time, not trains heading into the yard and out of the yard at the same time.  That might well be what you meant, but I thought I'd clarify.  Useful though.

Interesting comment. At a recent presentation to the (RCTS) Royal Corps of Trainspotters at Maiidenhead on the Reading rebuild the gradient on the freight line from Reading West under the mainline flyover to the Up Reliefs was highlighted as  being quite severe. It was suggested,  therefore. freights would require a clear run from Reading West into the station.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on December 15, 2012, 08:56:10 pm
...Though in terms of the parallel moves it only permits a move into the yard (from the up relief) and from the down goods loop at the same time, not trains heading into the yard and out of the yard at the same time.  That might well be what you meant, but I thought I'd clarify.  Useful though.

My mistake, yes - I was considering the yard and the goods lines collectively as 'the yard'.

Regarding trains not using the diveunder unless they need to when there's a potential conflict, won't it depend on whether or not that is an accurate layout, or a schematic?  It's possible that there'll be no speed advantage either way, depending on the detailed design of the points, IYSWIM...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Southern Stag on December 16, 2012, 12:16:01 am
So it keeps up Crossrail clear of freight from main lines and from down relief, but down Crossrail crosses main line freight on the level - have I read that right? 
The freight trains will likely be running on the the relief lines so sharing tracks with Crossrail services so there's no additional conflict because of the junction, Crossrail and freight would be sharing anyway.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on December 25, 2012, 06:33:20 pm
The Christmas period is being used to install a junction at Acton, as part of the Crossrail project.

Quote
Important information about Ealing services during Christmas

Monday 10 December

Over the Christmas period Network Rail will be installing a new junction on the tracks at Acton as part of the Crossrail project to improve rail services in the area.

As a result of the work, services between London Paddington and Greenford will stop running from 8pm on Monday 24 December 2012 (Christmas Eve) and will resume on the morning of Wednesday 2 January 2013.

The major engineering works are essential to help increase capacity and improve reliability along the Great Western main line ahead of Crossrail services beginning in 2018. The Acton works must be completed when there are no trains on the affected lines and Network Rail will be working around the clock.   

James Adeshiyan, Senior Project Interface Manager First Great Western, said:

^This upgrade is vitally important to improve our customers^ travel experiences for the future. To minimise inconvenience as much as possible, the work is being done at the least busy time of the year and arrangements have been made to enable passengers to use tickets for these services on the tube and TfL buses.

^However, please plan your journey as there is the potential that these services will take you a little longer.^

No First Great Western services will be able to call at Acton Main Line, West Ealing, Hanwell, Drayton Green, Castle Bar Park, South Greenford and Greenford stations during this time. Alternative arrangements have been made to enable passengers to use tickets for these destinations on London Buses and London Underground.

When Crossrail services begin in 2018, even more trains will travel along the Great Western main line so work is needed to improve capacity in the area. The new Acton underpass ^ known as a diveunder ^ will allow freight trains to access Acton Freight Yard without crossing main line passenger tracks, helping improve rail capacity and provide a more reliable service for passengers.

For more information on how this work will affect rail journeys please visit www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk or call 08457 000 125.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Media-centre/Important-information-about-Ealing-services-during-Christmas


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: BBM on January 04, 2013, 03:53:32 pm
Time-lapse video of GWML bridges being removed over the Christmas period as part of Crossrail work:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20909403 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20909403)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 04, 2013, 04:00:24 pm
The new diveunder line at Acton will be known as the Acton Relief.  It will have a MU PSR of 75mph against 80mph on the existing Up Relief.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: swrural on January 04, 2013, 06:45:29 pm
MU?  (not in list anyway).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on January 04, 2013, 07:07:01 pm
MU?  (not in list anyway).

Multiple Unit  eg DMU, EMU


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: swrural on January 05, 2013, 06:55:15 pm
Thanks, funny thing, I would have had no trouble with the three letter ones.  What one is used to seeing, I suppose. I never heard that one before.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on January 06, 2013, 09:14:21 am
Thanks, funny thing, I would have had no trouble with the three letter ones.  What one is used to seeing, I suppose. I never heard that one before.
Through Acton both D and E MU's operate


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on January 06, 2013, 11:11:56 am
Through Acton both D and E MU's operate

And perhaps very occasionally a DEMU ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF2ZqEX7LEM


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on January 06, 2013, 11:15:32 am
Through Acton both D and E MU's operate

And perhaps very occasionally a DEMU ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF2ZqEX7LEM

I won't get into the argument whether an HST is a DEMU or locomotives operating push/pull  ::)  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on January 06, 2013, 11:49:52 am
Then we have the Voyagers. Currently DEMUs but could become EDMUs if they are fitted with a pantograph car.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on January 06, 2013, 11:55:37 am
I won't get into the argument whether an HST is a DEMU or locomotives operating push/pull  ::)  ;D

I'd say HSTs are not DEMU's as they don't work in multiple.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on January 06, 2013, 12:09:49 pm
For his golden spanners Roger Ford classifies HSTs along with the 91s and mark 4 and Anglias Class 90s.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oxman on January 25, 2013, 06:20:05 pm
BBC report on Crossrail tunneling:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21196455



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on January 25, 2013, 06:41:54 pm
This fortnight's RAIL magazine (issue 714) has a 32 page supplement titled 'Upgrading London's Railways' which features a section on Crossrail as well as other projects in and around the capital.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on January 25, 2013, 06:49:31 pm
A fascinating glimpse, only made available to me because I'm watching the news on iPlayer, so get London news rather than Bristol. I never knew the tunnel boring (really/) machines had toilets on board.

Minutiae apart, as a former miner (for a short time only), I find it especially interesting. It looks much easier to dig through than Cornish granite.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on February 02, 2013, 03:51:04 pm
Lobstervision have published a timelapse video of the new Acton Junction being installed: http://www.lobsterpictures.tv/blog/2013/02/crossrail-acton-works/


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 18, 2013, 11:42:16 am
Works to extend the Down Main platforms at Langley and West Drayton have now been completed and the Up Main platform at Langley has also been raised to an acceptable height along its full length.  That means that all platforms between London and Slough can accept at least 6-Car length Turbo trains on both the Main and Relief lines, and hopefully the days of a late evening train leaving Paddington with two cars in service, packed to the rafters, with more units hitching a ride to Reading Depot locked out of use at the back will be a thing of the past.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on March 01, 2013, 03:54:51 pm
Been annouced that the state is to fund the new emu's for crossrail:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21634164

Of course this has certainly pleased the unions although labour  are calling the decision a humilation.
After the present problems with the Thameslink contract I think this is the correct decision.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 01, 2013, 04:15:54 pm
Labour's spokesperson hasn't really got much of a clue, has she.  The original concept of PFI deals for various things, including rolling stock, was a Gordon Brown good idea IIRC?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on March 01, 2013, 04:42:01 pm
PFI has been around in the UK since 1992. So I don't think it was a Gordon Brown idea.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 01, 2013, 05:20:43 pm
Correct - PFI was introduced under Sir John Major's premiership, whilst Norman (now Lord) Lamont was chancellor. The move was attacked by the Labour opposition, who later used it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 12, 2013, 03:42:07 pm
TfL have placed an advert asking for expressions of interest in running the Crossrail concession, starting in 2015 when the winner will take over Greater Anglia services from Liverpool Street to Shenfield.  A long way until any affects will be seen on the GWML (currently 2018 when the Heathrow Connect service is transferred using the new Crossrail stock in and out of Paddington), but I for one will be very interested to see who throws their hat into the ring on this one.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/tfl-seeks-crossrail-operator.html (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/tfl-seeks-crossrail-operator.html)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 15, 2013, 04:33:44 pm
After being plagued by delays, Crossrail may be slightly delayed by plague. TheBBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21784141) reports that excavation of a shaft on the edge of Charterhouse Square has uncovered what appears to a burial pit for victims of the Black Death. The existence of the pit was known, but not the location. The archaeological team working alongside contractors will be rubbing their hands with glee. It isn't likely to cause significant delay to the Crossrail project, which is in effect the biggest archaeology project in the country.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 23, 2013, 05:04:20 pm
Calls for Crossrail to be extended to Reading have been made by a Reading Councillor to the Transport Secretary.  However, Tory Reading East MP Rob Wilson, seems to believe that it would be of little benefit to London commuters from Reading.  He's right in that respect, but demonstrates a complete ignorance as to what extending it to Reading would achieve in terms of commuting into Reading from places like Twyford, Maidenhead, Burnham, Slough and West Drayton, and what a mess of a service is planned currently to get around it terminating at Maidenhead (i.e. Reading to Slough shuttles).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-22624555 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-22624555)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on May 23, 2013, 06:08:11 pm
Another project that impacts on all this of course is the HLOS proposal for western access to Heathrow.  WRatH?

If that isn't made a 'through Heathrow' service linking to Crossrail anyway, maybe it lends itself to closing the gaps in the service east of Reading, perhaps calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough then Heathrow?
(I think we can generally assume it won't be tunnelling under Windsor!)

In the BBC report the MP suggests people will travel all the way Reading to Paddington and 'transfer to the tube', but of course they'll also transfer to Crossrail there as well.

By the way I can never find any mention of this suggested Reading - Slough shuttle in any of the online stuff, such as the RUSs.  Anyone got a steer on where it gets mentioned?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on May 23, 2013, 06:35:34 pm
By the way I can never find any mention of this suggested Reading - Slough shuttle in any of the online stuff, such as the RUSs.  Anyone got a steer on where it gets mentioned?
Paul
It is mentioned, very briefly, in a paper submitted for the bill (though updated since):
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/assets/library/document/a/original/a3capacityonthegreatwesternmainline.pdf (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/assets/library/document/a/original/a3capacityonthegreatwesternmainline.pdf)
However, the source is not given there.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 23, 2013, 06:43:02 pm
Also mentioned on the Crossrail website page on the 'Western Section' which was updated this month.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/#.UZ5UqZzEnkU (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/#.UZ5UqZzEnkU)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on May 23, 2013, 06:52:21 pm
Thanks to you both.

Plenty of time for everything to change in 5 years though - what with EWR, WRatH, full electrification etc .  I bet the end result will be different to what they originally said...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 31, 2013, 11:14:05 am
http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/News/Areas/Maidenhead/Crossrail-could-be-extended-to-Reading-29052013.htm (http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/News/Areas/Maidenhead/Crossrail-could-be-extended-to-Reading-29052013.htm)

More uninformed and frankly silly comments from various councillors, complete with various reader comments pointing them out!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on May 31, 2013, 01:29:39 pm
Maidenhead to Reading safeguarding was consulted on in 2008, and confirmed in April 2009:  http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/safeguarding/maidenhead-to-reading#.UaiWO8u9KSM

There is similar safeguarding out to Gravesend in the SE, but it really doesnt make an extension more likely on its own, AFAICT it's mostly a planning 'heads up' to stop people claiming blight at a later date.

Anyone reading that article could be forgiven for thinking it is 'new' news...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on May 31, 2013, 06:22:13 pm
ITN News have shown film of a breakthrough, although not, so far as I can tell, in Reading. The footage is introduced by Bo Jo himself.

http://www.itn.co.uk/UK/77331/crossrail-milestone-as-boring-machine-breaks-through?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: trainer on May 31, 2013, 06:32:08 pm
The footage is introduced by Bo Jo himself.

Hmm.  One boring thing introducing another.  :D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 31, 2013, 10:20:35 pm
And could nobody find him a hard hat to fit??  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 01, 2013, 08:17:28 am
And could nobody find him a hard hat to fit??  ::)
Why ??? when some day a stray brick might get lucky  ;D ............. only jesting ........ which is exactly he does it


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on June 01, 2013, 08:27:38 am

Why ??? when some day a stray brick might get lucky  ;D ............. only jesting ........ which is exactly he does it

Every circus needs a clown. Just wait until he's Prime Minister. The comment he made, on record, when asked by a lady journalist whether he was still lucky with the ladies would come back to haunt most people. he would have t-shirts and badges made, and probably have it as his election campaign slogan.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 01, 2013, 09:25:23 am
Boris reminds me of Zaphod Beeblebrox, from Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy - his r^le as President of the Galaxy involved no power whatsoever, but merely required him to distract attention so that no-one wondered who was really in charge. This is a r^le for which Boris would be perfectly suited.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 01, 2013, 09:27:06 am
Boris reminds me of Zaphod Beeblebrox, from Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy - his r^le as President of the Galaxy involved no power whatsoever, but merely required him to distract attention so that no-one wondered who was really in charge. This is a r^le for which Boris would be perfectly suited.

 :o  ;D  ;D  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on June 25, 2013, 03:53:49 pm
The shortlist of pre-qualified bidders for the Crossrail concession has today been announced. FirstGroup didn't make the cut.

From the guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/25/crossrail-shortlist-keolis-national-express):

Quote
Crossrail shortlist revealed

Four train operators have been shortlisted by Transport for London to run the Crossrail services that will start in 2015.

The bidders will be National Express, Keolis/Go-Ahead, Arriva and MTR.

All four currently run trains in or around London, with German-owned Arriva and MTR, the Hong Kong Metro operator, running the Overground service as a joint venture.

The announcement is another blow for FirstGroup, which recently failed to pre-qualify for the Docklands Light Railway franchise in the capital, and is still in talks over its Great Western rail extension in the wake of the 2012 west coast main line fiasco. LR RATP, the Parisian tube and RER operator, also failed to make the cut.

An invitation to tender is due to be issued in September, and an operator will be appointed at the end of 2014. The winner will start running the first services from May 2015 between Liverpool Street and Shenfield, with the central route under the capital opening in late 2018.

Howard Smith, Crossrail's director of operations, said they were a step closer to cutting journey times across London. The ^14.8bn project promises to increase rail capacity in the capital by 10% with a fast, frequent service linking the east and west.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: devon_metro on June 25, 2013, 04:01:03 pm
Arriva and NatEx qualified? God help us


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Network SouthEast on June 25, 2013, 04:20:35 pm
Arriva and NatEx qualified? God help us
Why not?

Arriva and MTR do a pretty decent job with London Overground!

I wonder if First even submitted an expression of interest for Crossrail? Just because they are hold a large number of franchises, doesn't necessarily mean they bid for everything under the sun. I've done a quick Google and can't find anything in black and white to say First actually did go for Crossrail, apart from speculation in the press.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on June 25, 2013, 04:32:38 pm
Arriva and NatEx qualified? God help us

A relatively contained network.

Both Arriva and National Express do quite well with Chiltern and c2c respectively. Arriva are also part operators of London Overground and they seem to be doing okay there.

A bit early to pre-judge them running this concession based on their operation of large rail franchises. Concessions are very different to rail franchises.

I've done a quick Google and can't find anything in black and white to say First actually did go for Crossrail, apart from speculation in the press.

There are plenty of articles from the specialist press that say FirstGroup did complete a pre-qualification questionnaire. The Financial Times also said the same.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on June 26, 2013, 10:01:26 am
Who ever qualifies still doesn't solve the major problem of with Crossrail, which is that it doesn't work West of the tunnel mouth at Royal Oak. Especialy if it terminates at Maidenhead.

It completely disrupts the commuter flow on the GWML, which is possibly unique in that there are large flows from the West of Maidenhead to intermedaite stations to Ealing, such as Slough Hayes and Ealing in particular, not just Paddington. There is a also a smaller Westward counter flow from stations between  Ealing and Twyford to Reading even Oxford.
It also affects the Marlow and Henley branches which will lose all but 1 of their through trains.
Henley won't be pleased!

Something for study of the Social Consquenses on peoples' lifestyle on radical changes to their train services. there are several discussions on this topic on Coffee Shop.

The disruption to GWML commuting patterns is also compounded by the problem of 24 tph popping out of the tunnel with only 10 going forward. That means 14tph  have to be emptied out at Eastbourne Terrace run out to the sidings and turned round. That's going to have to be a pretty slick operation.




Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Network SouthEast on June 26, 2013, 06:31:33 pm
Who ever qualifies still doesn't solve the major problem of with Crossrail, which is that it doesn't work West of the tunnel mouth at Royal Oak. Especialy if it terminates at Maidenhead.

It completely disrupts the commuter flow on the GWML, which is possibly unique in that there are large flows from the West of Maidenhead to intermedaite stations to Ealing, such as Slough Hayes and Ealing in particular, not just Paddington.
Network Rail's London & South East RUS suggests in the longer term a four train per hour EMU service on the main lines between Paddington and Reading calling at a mixture of Twyford/Maidenhead/Slough. There are going to be 2TPH stoppers from Reading to Slough and 2TPH calling at various stations to Paddington.

I feel it is difficult to be critical of the final timetable as nobody actually knows yet what it will be yet.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 26, 2013, 09:09:00 pm
Who ever qualifies still doesn't solve the major problem of with Crossrail, which is that it doesn't work West of the tunnel mouth at Royal Oak. Especialy if it terminates at Maidenhead.

It completely disrupts the commuter flow on the GWML, which is possibly unique in that there are large flows from the West of Maidenhead to intermedaite stations to Ealing, such as Slough Hayes and Ealing in particular, not just Paddington.
Network Rail's London & South East RUS suggests in the longer term a four train per hour EMU service on the main lines between Paddington and Reading calling at a mixture of Twyford/Maidenhead/Slough. There are going to be 2TPH stoppers from Reading to Slough and 2TPH calling at various stations to Paddington.

I feel it is difficult to be critical of the final timetable as nobody actually knows yet what it will be yet.

I agree NSE there are quite a few new things thrown in since the SERUS full GW electrification and its extensions to Gt Bedwyn, Basingstoke and North of Oxford.

I certainly feel that an hourly semi fast during the day to / from Maidenhead to Padd (calling at Slough) would prove popular.  Even better if it was a Reading Crossrail semi fast service , Maidenhead, Slough Padd then through the core


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on June 26, 2013, 10:57:02 pm
I did wonder, when work started at Maidenhead, whether this was to build the full infrastructure for terminating there. The L&SE RUS strongly recommended dropping that plan, saving its cost, in favour of out going to Reading. It pointed out that a decision to do this had to be made early enough for the Maidenhead work programme to be changed.

So was that key decision deadline missed? In other words, what is being built at Maidenhead (and Slough)?

My understanding of the RUS proposal was that replacing the residual stopping and semi-fast service out to reading depended on the change in terminus for Crossrail. Running Crossrail trains fast to Reading (always my favourite) was considered, but rejected due to the lack of a direct (grade separated) connection to the fast lines. If the terminus decision was not made by now, presumably the concession will be let on its original plan, and any alteration to take advantage of the extra capacity at Reading will be delayed too.

Included in that list of advantages is putting an end to Heathrow Express's use of four paths an hour on the fast tracks for trivial gains in time, and using these paths for the fast "outer suburban" trains instead.

The proposals in an RUS, however forceful, logical, or useful, need (under the current regime) to be adopted in a real plan, specification, or the like if anything is ever to happen. If any cost is involved that needs to be funded. As far as I can see the CP5 HLOS defers this set of decisions to the relevant franchise(s), meaning somewhere inside DfT.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on June 27, 2013, 10:29:40 am
I did wonder, when work started at Maidenhead, whether this was to build the full infrastructure for terminating there. The L&SE RUS strongly recommended dropping that plan, saving its cost, in favour of out going to Reading. It pointed out that a decision to do this had to be made early enough for the Maidenhead work programme to be changed.

I think they'll build it all as planned irrespective of future extensions.  The Paddington - Reading terminating service is currently only 2 tph, so even if that were doubled to 4 tph and given over to Crossrail, they'd still probably want a higher frequency east of Maidenhead.  So the additional trackwork and platform at Maidenhead would be useful anyway, even if only a subset of services were reversing there.  If nothing else the layout would allow trains with different stopping patterns to overtake at Maidenhead.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 27, 2013, 07:18:56 pm
I agree even if Crossrail services run to Reading stabling at Maidenhead will be useful for perturbation as there will be little space at Reading for too many Crossrail train sets


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: mathmo on June 27, 2013, 11:53:09 pm
The last I heard was that from Crossrail only 2tph off peak / 4tph peak are planned to go to Maidenhead.  An additional 2tph off peak got rejected by the ORR (which sounds pretty stupid to me).  So it is possible there will actually be a worse stopping service on the GWML post-Crossrail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 28, 2013, 10:57:40 am
The last I heard was that from Crossrail only 2tph off peak / 4tph peak are planned to go to Maidenhead.  An additional 2tph off peak got rejected by the ORR (which sounds pretty stupid to me).  So it is possible there will actually be a worse stopping service on the GWML post-Crossrail.

Although if the Greater Western Franchise (or whatever that might turn into) is guaranteed 2tph on the relief lines from Reading to Paddington, and two shuttles Reading to Slough, then with those Crossrail 2tph to/from Maidenhead that would equal 4tph off-peak as now.  To be honest, squeezing in another 2tph on the reliefs, along with additional Heathrow services and freight, was always going to stretch available paths to the limit.  That's not to say my preferred option isn't still 4tph on the Crossrail route extended to Reading!

An awful lot of timetable work still needs to be carefully thought through for eightf48544's "Crossrail doesn't work west of Paddington" statements over the years to not become reality!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Network SouthEast on June 28, 2013, 11:24:58 am
Since the original track access application was decided on in 2008 a few things have changed.

IEP confirmed
Wires to South Wales/Thames Valley/Bristol
Great Western RUS
London & South East RUS

The track access application is not the final say - it is the minimum that was confirmed at the time.

Track access applications can (and are) made to the ORR regularly from the industry, you only have to look at the ORR site to see this.

I fully expect to see 4tph off-peak to Maidenhead on Crossrail by launch.

Let's recap the other off-peak Maidenhead services planned post Crossrail...

2tph Reading, Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes & Harlington, Ealing Broadway and Paddington
2tph Reading, Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow, Burnham and Slough



If the London & Southeast RUS is realised in addition to the above trains, and 4tph peak Maidenhead there will also be the following extra services:

2tph Reading, Maidenhead, Slough, Paddington
2tph Reading, Twyford, Maidenhead, Paddington


So that's potentially 6tph off-peak at Maidenhead MINIMUM and a potential 12tph at Maidenhead during the peak.

As I have said before, let's wait until the draft timetables appear before predicting doomsday.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on June 28, 2013, 06:38:48 pm
12tph in the peak at Maidenhead sounds far too high bearing in mind  they will have to slot in with the West Drayton and Heathrow Crossrail trains from Hayes if they run Relief line. Although 2 drop off at Slough that's still 10 to merge with 6 making 16tph from Hayes.

Will there be paths for some on the main?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on June 28, 2013, 07:31:27 pm
Since the original track access application was decided on in 2008 a few things have changed.
...
London & South East RUS
...
If the London & Southeast RUS is realised in addition to the above trains, and 4tph peak Maidenhead there will also be the following extra services:

2tph Reading, Maidenhead, Slough, Paddington
2tph Reading, Twyford, Maidenhead, Paddington
...
As I have said before, let's wait until the draft timetables appear before predicting doomsday.

The L&SE RUS proposed these as semi-fast services, switching to the fast lines after Maidenhead or Slough. That depends on getting rid of those vexations Heathrow Express services, at last in the peak.

But the point about the two RUSs is that they have not "happened" at all. They are just ideas, and nothing will happen until a decision is made to happen it.

That's why I keep going on about this decision-making process. When the L&SE RUS at last got all the ducks (Crossrail, extended to Reading, electrification, and extra paths at Reading from 2015) prettily lined up, their proposals made a lot of sense to me. But they required some extra money, for different infrastructure at Maidenhead and/or Reading in particular, to make them happen. Not a lot, and the proposal was that the main new build at Maidenhead should be abandoned as this would save more money than the extra bits would cost. I assume that doing that way would make it compatible with the existing HLOS - using the allocated money better.

Quote from: London and South-East RUS, July 2011, p 105
Infrastructure required
The above service pattern would require construction of a new 10-car or more east-facing
bay platform at Slough, which is not planned at present.
However the cost of this would be outweighed by a significant cost saving in that the
following committed infrastructure enhancement schemes would not be required:
^ major track and signalling changes on the relief lines at Maidenhead for
terminating Crossrail services
^ the new bay platform at Maidenhead for Marlow branch services (since these could be
accommodated by existing infrastructure)
^ the west-facing bay at Slough station
^ the stabling and servicing facilities at Maidenhead.
Implementation of this option would therefore result in an infrastructure cost saving of
around ^31 million, though clearly this would require a decision to be made quickly over the
coming months, before construction works in the Maidenhead area commence.

We are five years out from this happening, so no-one should be fixing service patterns now. A range of indicative service patterns need to be considered in deciding how to spend infrastructure money, so as to support as many options as can be afforded. But that is not visibly what has happened. While the terminal stabling at Maidenhead might still be nice to have, it can hardly be a priority if the money could support other better options already identified some time ago. Or was it really never possible to save enough money here to extend to Reading (the  ^31M in the quote above) - in which case who, where, has over-ruled the RUS as technically incompetent?

Is it really true that a plan originally chosen five years ago can't be altered five years before it needs to be finished? I can't see that that is a technical constraint of the construction programme, so presumably it has become ensnared in a Sargasso duck-pond by marauding bands of hatchling lawyers. Sad, isn't it, when you think that the Victorians could build a railway from scratch - first board meeting, via inter-company negotiations, act of parliament, land purchase, building the earthworks by hand, buying rolling stock, to opening - in ten years.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on June 30, 2013, 01:24:48 am
Sad, isn't it, when you think that the Victorians could build a railway from scratch - first board meeting, via inter-company negotiations, act of parliament, land purchase, building the earthworks by hand, buying rolling stock, to opening - in ten years.

Queen Victoria came to the throne in 1837, just 4 years after GWR was formed, and a year before the first section was opened. The population of England then was about 14^ million. Population now is around 53 million, explaining why so much less land is available now for building railways ab initio. The railway was built along what Brunel perceived (almost certainly correctly) to be the easiest route from an engineering and legal viewpoint, linking as many conurbations along the way as he could. Those same conurbations grew rapidly with the arrival of trains, and new ones grew along the corridor. Any expansion now is hugely complicated by this, because building a new line out of any existing main line will have to cut a great swathe through a built-up area.

Another consideration is safety - now. Many died building the GWR, around 100 in the building of Box Tunnel alone (including a great-great uncle of Mrs FTN). The drive for safety began soon after, and successive laws have tried to make construction, maintenance and operation of railways safer, to the delight of lawyers.

Brunel could also rely on a huge pool of very cheap labour, long unavailable to the construction industry. With these and many other factors taken into account, it surprises me that any railway can be built at all these days.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on June 30, 2013, 08:33:06 am
That's another question: "how long would it take to build a major railway today?" I'm not sure what the answer would, or should, or (for HS2) will be. Ought the use of current technology to offset the factors you cite?

My frustration is rather that in a similar time we can only do so little. The changes I was talking about involve, little, if any, new land take.  I was trying to register that the excuse that "it only took ten years" was lame in the extreme. Especially as, in this case, it  is taking ten years to fails to do something.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 30, 2013, 09:33:39 am
To actually build a railway once you can get on site is quite quick .................. its all the political huffing and puffing that prevents letting the engineers do what we do takes the time.

If you look at the Crossrail core build, a complex engineering task under a major city the build time (even with the section 61 limitations) in comparison to the length of time it took to get all the politics out of the way is blink of an eye.

Evergreen 3 and Eastwest Rail will show that building a railway is quite quick.

UK "PLC" needs to develop something it has not had since the Roman ................... a National Transport strategy


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 30, 2013, 10:30:19 am

Brunel could also rely on a huge pool of very cheap labour, long unavailable to the construction industry. With these and many other factors taken into account, it surprises me that any railway can be built at all these days.


I don't see the relevance of cheap labour - the Victorians needed a huge number of navvies to do what a few JCBs or a modern TBM can do, with a relatively small number of skilled operators.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on June 30, 2013, 01:02:41 pm
Indeed, archaeologists suffer from this. Earthworks that were built with large amounts of labour, for reasons we struggle to guess, have survived for millennia. Farmers would like to have levelled them but it would have cost them too much in labour. Now they can, and do, take them out - what you might call the "curse of the Bamfords".

(A similar fate befell the massive pre-Columbian platforms of the Ohio Valley Culture, some of which were destroyed by the US government to build interstate highways right up to the 1970s - scandalously.)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Super Guard on July 08, 2013, 07:56:10 pm
From Yahoo! - Siemans out of bidding for Crossrail trains

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/siemens-withdraws-crossrail-competition-121425562.html

Quote
LONDON (Reuters) - Siemens has pulled out of the bidding to provide trains for Britain's multi-billion pound Crossrail project, raising prospects for rivals Bombardier , Hitachi and Spain's CAF to win the contract.

Siemens said on Friday it no longer had the capacity to deliver 600 carriages for the new line to connect east and west London...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on July 08, 2013, 08:12:28 pm
Could be good news for Derby....

Or an opportunity for Hitachi to expand on their existing commitment (IEP) in the UK.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on July 08, 2013, 09:54:07 pm

I don't see the relevance of cheap labour - the Victorians needed a huge number of navvies to do what a few JCBs or a modern TBM can do, with a relatively small number of skilled operators.

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but there's a whole train of thought been started now. If, on the day someone said "I've a grand idea - let's build Crossrail!" someone had sent a dozen gentlemen of the Irish persuasion with picks and shovels to make a start whilst the finer details were worked out, I reckon it would have been finished in time for the Olympics. I have in days long gone by worked in a mine, and have some idea of what can be achieved by men working with rudimentary tools.

The second thought was on cost. The TBMs come in at about ^10 million apiece, and have a crew of 20. There are 8 of them, and 41km of tunnel to be done, so each will dig about 5 km. At around 100 m per week, you can say that the dig will take about a year. 10 megaquid would pay for a lot of navvies...

This is just for fun, because I know we will never go back to manual labour. Millimetre precision needs good machines, and these things are far from boring. The sight of one of them breaking through, bang on target, is awesome.


UK "PLC" needs to develop something it has not had since the Roman ................... a National Transport strategy

Hear hear! A National Infrastructure Agency, with broad terms of reference and allocated funding, makes so much sense. Especially when you look at all the costly horse trading that accompanies any project more complicated than changing the light bulb in a signal. It may seem a bit Stalinist to have long-term plans, but we should have someone already working on things like the next Crossrail sections and the replacement for the as yet unbuilt IEP trains. Without that, we face the usual British problem. We open something new with brass bands playing. Speeches are made, ribbons cut, politicians and royalty ride on spanky new trains (the Queen, God bless her, probably thinks the world smells of new paint). High fives are exchanged, but 25 years later it's knackered, and needs daily cajoling to keep it running. Only then do we start looking for the next generation, before announcing a successor then cancelling it at least twice before settling on a model on the basis of short-term capital cost.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 08, 2013, 10:15:56 pm
From Yahoo! - Siemans out of bidding for Crossrail trains

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/siemens-withdraws-crossrail-competition-121425562.html

Quote
LONDON (Reuters) - Siemens has pulled out of the bidding to provide trains for Britain's multi-billion pound Crossrail project, raising prospects for rivals Bombardier , Hitachi and Spain's CAF to win the contract.

Siemens said on Friday it no longer had the capacity to deliver 600 carriages for the new line to connect east and west London...
Could be good news for Derby....

Or an opportunity for Hitachi to expand on their existing commitment (IEP) in the UK.

I suspect that's because Siemens will now be in full production for the Thameslink trains now that the contract has finally been signed.

From the IET presentation last month Hitachi are very keen on the Crossrail train sets


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on July 08, 2013, 10:35:14 pm
My reading of the article translates it from the original German as:
"Fed up of waiting for someone to make their minds up, we committed to other more enthusiastic orders that probably won't get cancelled twice before being singed. Bugger Britain, we're looking East and to South America. You people just don't get it."


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on July 08, 2013, 11:45:07 pm
before being singed.

Perhaps someone burnt their fingers on the deal.  :P ;) ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on July 09, 2013, 06:56:39 pm
before being singed.

Perhaps someone burnt their fingers on the deal.  :P ;) ;D

You say tomato, I say tomato...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Lee on July 09, 2013, 08:15:19 pm
...lets call the whole thing off!!!!  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on July 10, 2013, 11:03:01 pm
...lets call the whole thing off!!!!  ;D

I think you might be right. That gag just doesn't work when it's written, rather than sung, does it? Had it been "You say zucchini, I say courgette" or "You say sidewalk, I say pavement", or even "You say baseball is fascinating, I say no it isn't, it's just rounders in pyjamas with more ad breaks" then we could be getting somewhere.
[/threaddrift]

before being singed.

Perhaps someone burnt their fingers on the deal.  :P ;) ;D

A true pleasure to bump into BNM again, and to share a couple of Wetherspoons' finest, even if he did have to opt for Plan B. In my younger days, I once experimented with lager. Nothing good came of it.

Back on thread now, and I am beginning to analyse my National Infrastructure Authority idea, and my conclusion is that it is the only way to de-politicise national public transport, as well as those other infrastructure must-haves like water, sewerage, gas, airports, and probably most vitally power. Not exhaustive. Crossrail is a good example of how the current method builds in delay and expense. Once a need for a project is identified, it should be done at the earliest possible opportunity, not reviewed and cancelled a few times.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on July 31, 2013, 09:02:00 pm
A new update regarding progress on Tottenham Court Road station, from Crossrail and TfL (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/tfl-and-crossrail-unveil-images-of-tottenham-court-road-station-as-major-transport-hub-takes-shape). Has some interesting pictures, as well as lots of figures, and an upbeat assessment from BoJo. Too much to quote, but well worth a look.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 31, 2013, 09:26:15 pm
And here's the plans for the rebuild of Ealing Broadway station, providing much overdue step-free access, extended platforms, a modern, bigger concourse and longer canopies.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/ealing-broadway-station (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/ealing-broadway-station)

http://www.ealing.gov.uk/downloads/download/2014/crossrail_provisional_plans_for_ealing_broadway_station (http://www.ealing.gov.uk/downloads/download/2014/crossrail_provisional_plans_for_ealing_broadway_station)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 01, 2013, 10:06:49 am
Crossrail are busy exploring the platforms at Taplow. They seem to be digging small pits to ascertain structure and also marking up untility runs with different colured paint.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 01, 2013, 06:18:48 pm
Crossrail are busy exploring the platforms at Taplow. They seem to be digging small pits to ascertain structure and also marking up untility runs with different colured paint.

Are they in the process of putting up fencing to prevent access to the edge of the up main platform that's been out of use for years?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 01, 2013, 06:45:23 pm
Crossrail are busy exploring the platforms at Taplow. They seem to be digging small pits to ascertain structure and also marking up untility runs with different colured paint.

Are they in the process of putting up fencing to prevent access to the edge of the up main platform that's been out of use for years?

As I went past (on the soon to fail 17:18 ex Padd if we think 166 air-con is pants the 180 this eve was blasting out hot air) there were white fence post in some of the holes


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 02, 2013, 08:22:35 am
Crossrail are busy exploring the platforms at Taplow. They seem to be digging small pits to ascertain structure and also marking up untility runs with different colured paint.

Are they in the process of putting up fencing to prevent access to the edge of the up main platform that's been out of use for years?

As it turns out you are dead right II and ET went to the station last night and found a fence on the east end paltform 2 with enogh panels to do the West End a well. At least it appears it's going to have gates on it presumably for emergency use. Will train crews have keys?

Train allegedly stopped on platform 2 the other day and opened the doors to take on passengers!



That ruins Taplow as a place to photograph staem specials!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 02, 2013, 09:06:19 am
They've been putting similar barriers with gates up at other stations on the route, such as Southall, West Drayton and Acton Main Line for safety reasons as when a busy train arrives on the down relief platform it stops disembarking passengers from spreading out and getting perilously close to a 125mph HST rushing on the up main.  That's not so much of a problem at a place like Taplow, but the platform surface isn't in very good condition, so it makes sense to block it off given there's no service supposed to use it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on August 03, 2013, 09:25:15 pm
And here's the plans for the rebuild of Ealing Broadway station, providing much overdue step-free access, extended platforms, a modern, bigger concourse and longer canopies.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/ealing-broadway-station (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/ealing-broadway-station)

http://www.ealing.gov.uk/downloads/download/2014/crossrail_provisional_plans_for_ealing_broadway_station (http://www.ealing.gov.uk/downloads/download/2014/crossrail_provisional_plans_for_ealing_broadway_station)

The images from the crossrail link made me suspect that there might just be a bit of artistic licence here. Where had that big white office block on the left of the station entrance gone? Was it being demolished for Crossrail? I see from the council website drawings however that it's staying where it is but the entrance to the station is being moved to the right of where it is now.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: James on August 08, 2013, 05:43:44 pm
Looks as if the Crossrail works in the Maidenhead Area are really gathering pace.
An area of where the Maidenhead Depot will be located has now be dug up, and further excavating work on the existing track in the sidings plus stockpiling is being done for removal in the future.
It also says that it will try to make less noise and dust, but one night on previous weekends you can hear the trains sounding the horns at 02:30 am in the morning. Is that really needed? Oh well...


Due to this, Network Rail sent me a letter telling me the dates that Crossrail will cause disruption on.
The dates are;
+ Sunday 11 August (00:30) to Monday 12 August (05:30) and;
+ Sunday 18 August (00:30) to Monday 19 August (05:30)

Heres the letter if you wish to read further into it :)



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 08, 2013, 06:02:44 pm
...but one night on previous weekends you can hear the trains sounding the horns at 02:30 am in the morning. Is that really needed?

Well it probably is if it stops infrastructure workers being run down by either mainline engines or on track 'yellow plant' during possessions.  If you check out a few of the past Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) reports you'll see that it is a good idea...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: James on August 08, 2013, 06:09:30 pm
For goodness sake, health and safety gone mad, they need to have radio communication equipment instead of consistently sounding horns or someone standing with a bright flag to notify the train drivers there are in the area.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 08, 2013, 06:55:10 pm
For goodness sake, health and safety gone mad, they need to have radio communication equipment instead of consistently sounding horns or someone standing with a bright flag to notify the train drivers there are in the area.


There are a lot of protective measures put in place to protect the workforce in possessions especially at night.  Radios are used between a machine operator and the machine controller (almost similar to a banksman in a construction site), worksites a when ever possible fenced from the operational railway (have you ever wondered want those blue rails are that are supported from the running rails) and workers not involved in the process a machine or train is doing are where ever possible are kept out of where machines or trains are operating, however there are times when a works train or machine moves and it needs to sound a warning.

Track work is a hostile environment at the best of time at night with 20 Tonne 360 machines operating it can be leathal


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: James on August 08, 2013, 07:20:37 pm
Ah fair enough, i do wonder what those machines looked like to be honest, it always interested me.
However whilst i agree the train or machines have to sound their horns, they don't need to do this every 20 seconds and send a loud echo across the Boyn Hill and Larchfield Areas of Maidenhead, although to be fair it only happened twice...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Network SouthEast on August 08, 2013, 09:38:42 pm
Ah fair enough, i do wonder what those machines looked like to be honest, it always interested me.
However whilst i agree the train or machines have to sound their horns, they don't need to do this every 20 seconds and send a loud echo across the Boyn Hill and Larchfield Areas of Maidenhead, although to be fair it only happened twice...

Do you seriously think train drivers sound their horn in the middle of the night for fun?

Whilst British railway safety is strong, injuries, fatalities and near misses with track workers are still unfortunately a regular occurrence.

When there are open running lines, (and don't forget that one pair has a 90mph speed limit, and the other pair has a 125mph limit), poor lighting, noisy equipment, trains sounding their horns is inevitable. Don't forget that two trains approaching from opposite directions probably will be sounding their horns in close proximity, there may also be several worksites in close proximity to each other.

The railway does try to be a good neighbour, but


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: James on August 08, 2013, 09:56:59 pm
Network Southeast, its no fun for people who are trying to sleep to hear a blazing loud horn, especially late at night. If you lived near a railway you would understand. If the problem continues people will start complaining and it may mean certain compensation if there nights sleep is affected. After all it's unacceptable to sound it that frequently, but if it was less noisy then it would be ok. Just hoping Mrs Wilson won't complain...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on August 08, 2013, 10:09:23 pm
Network Southeast, its no fun for people who are trying to sleep to hear a blazing loud horn, especially late at night. If you lived near a railway you would understand. If the problem continues people will start complaining and it may mean certain compensation if there nights sleep is affected. After all it's unacceptable to sound it that frequently, but if it was less noisy then it would be ok. Just hoping Mrs Wilson won't complain...

I realise it is no fun but if you are stood next to an item of mechanical plant that is also making a lot of noise then the horn needs to be louder I am afraid. The construction industry has one of the worst records for health and safety of any industry and the railway maintenance part of that has not had a good record. I have never had to do it but I know one man who had to go and see a colleague's family to tell them their husband/father would not be coming home. I did not know him before, but he was always most particular about health and safety after then.

There is a solution to you sounding horns in the middle of the night though.  That is to shut the railway during the day to do the work at a more sociable hour.  It would be safer to do it in daylight as well.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 08, 2013, 10:28:34 pm
Some machines will sound a warning automatically when the driver initiates a move, a lot of work is done mechanically but there is a lot that needs a human touch in and around the machine or close by those staff need to be warned that a machine is about to move.

The staff will be briefed that its a residential area to keep the noise to a minimum, radios are now through headsets so no blearing loudspeakers, machine engine noise is muffled so all that is really left is the mechanical work and the safety warnings
 

Or we could close the railway during daylight hours and do the work


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: James on August 08, 2013, 10:43:49 pm
Sorry to hear that ellen, just makes life harder, when the trains blaze the horn frequently, but i can understand why it is needed. Hmm its a diffcult balancing act, and dont be silly Network Southeast, if the work needs doing at night, then it should crack on with it. However lets be sensible about this.
+ At least three staff members must have radio and flags to warn the other workers of the impeding danger thats coming towards them, if machines or other things must move around. The radio headset must be loud enough for the workers to hear of warning or danger signs. Therefore no sound horn should be used unless theres a major problem. Such as a technical problem with the communication systems. Just an idea. Just for some comfort tho, the railways have been quiet for the last 3 days so thats good news. If it stays like that then there should be no problems.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 10, 2013, 03:58:27 pm
TBM 'Phyllis' has completed the first of the tunnels from Royal Oak to Farringdon with 'Ada' not far behind:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/first-crossrail-tunnelling-machine-completes-her-journey (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/first-crossrail-tunnelling-machine-completes-her-journey)

Also, works at Acton and Airport Junction continue at a pace, with the latter's support columns for the new bridge taking the Airport line over the 'relief' lines now at an advanced state of construction.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on October 11, 2013, 01:32:20 pm
Looks like they're going ahead with Crossrail then.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on October 11, 2013, 06:10:37 pm
Some reasonably up to date photos of what's going on in Eastbourne Terrace here:

http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2013/09/29/photos-of-the-crossrail-station-at-paddington/

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on October 11, 2013, 06:24:17 pm
Looks like they're going ahead with Crossrail then.
Nah all this work is a trial run ............. for Crossrail 2 ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on October 12, 2013, 09:57:07 am
I think you are right Electric train, they've still got to work out how to get rid of 14tph at Eastbourne Terrace in under 2.5 minutes each.

Heard an odd unsubstantiated rumour last night that once Crossrail is running out of the tunnel that there would be as shuttle between Reading and Maidenhead requiring a change to Crossrail   for local passengers from Reading for stations to Ealing Broadway and everyone from Twyford (of which there are considrable number of both). Originally when there were no sign of wires to Reading there was going to be diesel shuttle from Reading to Slough which was bad enough.

Crossrail are going to have problems in 2019 because TV commuters will have had 2 years of an electric commuter service which even with 319s (let alone 377s)  will be faster, cleaner and quiter than the Turbos.

Commuters from West of Maidenhead for stations to Ealing are not going to like and having to change at Maidenhead and be hearded on to 378 type cattle wagons.

As Gerry Fienes was told we don't blow whistles at commuters from Newbury!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on October 12, 2013, 11:20:42 am
I went to an IET event in London last month the lecture was given by the Chairman of Crossrail, Terry Morgan, he was asked at then why Crossrail was not going to Reading or indeed Ebbsfleet his answer was to maintain Crossrail construction within its budget both in terms money and time there can be no "mission creep" he did say it is highly likely that Crossrail will go to Reading but that is a matter for DfT.   The cost of the sidings at Maidenhead is in grand scale of things insignificant.

There are 3 major schemes that will impact on TV services, the whole route electrification, Crossrail and Eastwest Rail the last 2 are significant for TV services at Reading Eastwest Rail show services to Reading it maks logical sence to extend Crossrail to Reading but then we are talking about DfT taking a logical decision.

Keeping Crossrail out of Reading as the Bill went through Parliament was the right decision to make at the time Reading rebuild was not on the agenda would have been prohibitively expensive for Crossrail


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on October 12, 2013, 01:50:26 pm
Good summary but we do seem to painted ourselves into a corner with Crossrail being an Act of Parliament whilst reading Rebuild and Electrification are Works Orders. Presumably DaFT don't want to have to go back to parliament and get the Crossrail Bill amended even if makes sense.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on October 12, 2013, 04:11:10 pm
Good summary but we do seem to painted ourselves into a corner with Crossrail being an Act of Parliament whilst reading Rebuild and Electrification are Works Orders. Presumably DaFT don't want to have to go back to parliament and get the Crossrail Bill amended even if makes sense.
Yep that quite correct.   The reason for the Crossrail Bill was to enable compulsory purchase also it is building a new railway where as GW electrification and Reading rebuild a alterations under permitted development; the Bills and works orders only apply to the construction and not the final use


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Network SouthEast on October 12, 2013, 10:11:25 pm
I think you are right Electric train, they've still got to work out how to get rid of 14tph at Eastbourne Terrace in under 2.5 minutes each.

Heard an odd unsubstantiated rumour last night that once Crossrail is running out of the tunnel that there would be as shuttle between Reading and Maidenhead requiring a change to Crossrail   for local passengers from Reading for stations to Ealing Broadway and everyone from Twyford (of which there are considrable number of both). Originally when there were no sign of wires to Reading there was going to be diesel shuttle from Reading to Slough which was bad enough.
No no! There will be a half hourly shuttle from Reading to Slough calling at all stations once Crossrail is running, plus a half hourly service from Reading to Paddington calling at Tywford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway.

It's on the Crossrail site (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/), and has been discussed on this very forum before.
Quote
Crossrail are going to have problems in 2019 because TV commuters will have had 2 years of an electric commuter service which even with 319s (let alone 377s)  will be faster, cleaner and quiter than the Turbos.

Commuters from West of Maidenhead for stations to Ealing are not going to like and having to change at Maidenhead and be hearded on to 378 type cattle wagons.

As Gerry Fienes was told we don't blow whistles at commuters from Newbury!
They aren't though.

There are the services I've mentioned above, plus if you read the Network Rail L&SE RUS (which again, has been discussed on this forum), there are plans for fast services from Reading to Paddington, all calling at Maidenhead with alternating services stopping at Twyford or Slough.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 09, 2013, 04:10:37 pm
From wharf.co.uk (http://www.wharf.co.uk/2013/11/video-crossrail-machine-breaks.html?):

Quote
VIDEO: Crossrail machine breaks through to huge East End mined cave

(http://www.wharf.co.uk/crossrail%20stepney.jpg)

One of Europe's largest underground caverns has been broken through to in the latest milestone for the London-wide construction.

The stunning caves, 40 metres below ground, were reached on Thursday. It will form part of the tunnel linking the East End to Farringdon.

It is the point where the line divides westbound with one spur going to Canary Wharf and the other heading to Stratford.

The caverns at Stepney Green are approximately 50m long, 17m wide and 15m high.

Scroll down for photos and a video.

... and that's a cracking video! CfN ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on November 09, 2013, 06:27:49 pm
I agree CfN a ground breaking video  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on November 10, 2013, 07:05:57 pm
I agree. The earth moved for me also.  ;D

As a one-time tin miner, I am enormously impressed by all this project has to offer.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 19, 2013, 09:51:55 pm
Lord Adonis has joined the list of people who think Crossrail should operate to/from Reading rather than Maidenhead:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-25007350 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-25007350)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on January 04, 2014, 08:53:24 am
This article I found posted on district dave maybe of interest :

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/davehillblog/2013/dec/31/london-underground-writers-on-tube-future



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: wabbit on February 06, 2014, 08:02:32 am
Just in from the DfT:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/crossrail-rolling-stock-and-depot-contract-to-be-awarded-to-bombardier (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/crossrail-rolling-stock-and-depot-contract-to-be-awarded-to-bombardier)

Apologies if this is in the wrong place, I did a quick search for a Crossrail thread.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Rhydgaled on February 06, 2014, 09:39:22 am
Hurrah, UK rolling stock manufacturing supported for a while longer. Long may it continue.

Interesting that Crossrail have registered class 345 for the new trains though, whereas Thameslink and IEP have apparently jumped to 700 and 800. On that basis Crossrail stock would have been given something like class 705.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 06, 2014, 09:57:11 am
Good news for Derby, though I would have been equally pleased had the contract gone to Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe.  Perhaps those that have bleated on for the past few years about everything being unfair and being given to 'foreign' firms can reflect on the order book for Bombadier, which has several other jobs on its books as well as this Crossrail order.

Let's hope the Class 345s work well out of the box.  Bombadier have a pretty poor record at providing new designs of trains which work properly and enter service on time!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on February 06, 2014, 10:11:52 am
Hurrah, UK rolling stock manufacturing supported for a while longer. Long may it continue.

Interesting that Crossrail have registered class 345 for the new trains though, whereas Thameslink and IEP have apparently jumped to 700 and 800. On that basis Crossrail stock would have been given something like class 705.

Crossrail had already reserved Class 345 some time before the new 700 series was introduced (by amendment of the 'train identification' group standard in 2011).  There was no real requirement for Thameslink to be 700/701 as far as I can see, there are plenty of unused class numbers in the equally relevant 300-399 series.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on February 06, 2014, 05:03:43 pm
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26063121):

Quote
Bombardier wins ^1bn Crossrail deal

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72794000/jpg/_72794714_72789988.jpg)

Bombardier has won a ^1bn contract to provide trains for the London Crossrail project, the government has announced. The company will provide 65 trains for the Crossrail service, which is set to open in 2018. The trains will be manufactured and assembled at Bombardier's plant in Derby.

The Department for Transport (DfT) said Bombardier's contract would support 760 manufacturing jobs and 80 apprenticeships.

In total, up to 340 new jobs will be created, said a spokesperson for Bombardier.

The DfT also said that about 74% of the amount spent on the contract would stay in the UK economy.

Canada's Bombardier beat Japan's Hitachi and Spain's CAF to secure the deal.

'Great boost'

The Crossrail system is due to run from Maidenhead and Heathrow Airport in the west, to Abbey Wood and Shenfield in the east. It will aim to provide faster journey times and up to 24 trains per hour between Paddington and Whitechapel during the peak.

Business Secretary Vince Cable said the decision gave the Midlands a "great boost" and represented a "real vote of confidence in British manufacturing". He said: "The government has been working hard with industry to support the UK rail supply chain to maximise growth opportunities through contracts like this."

'Relief'

The government said the network will boost London's rail capacity by 10%. It also estimated the new service would support 55,000 full-time jobs around the country.

Bombardier lost out to German firm Siemens to build new train carriages for the London-based Thameslink route in 2011.

Unite national officer Julia Long said: "This is great news for the workforce at Bombardier and for Derby. After the disastrous handling of the Thameslink contract this news must come as a massive relief for the skilled men and women at Bombardier." She said the jobs would be "valuable" for young people wanting a future in manufacturing, and that the decision was a "tribute to the skills and dedication of the Derbyshire workforce".

Labour MP for Derby South, Margaret Beckett, said after Thameslink, Bombadier's workers were "very much put on their mettle". She said: "Everybody was devastated by the Thameslink decision, but they have really got stuck in and proved that they are the right people to have this contract, which I have no doubt they are."

Each new train will be 200 metres long and be able to take up to 1,500 passengers. The trains will also be air-conditioned, with linked, walk-through carriages, and provide live travel information.

Mayor of London Boris Johnson said the trains would "revolutionise" rail travel in the capital and lead to economic growth in Derby and across the UK. He said: "With a firm on board to deliver a fleet of 21st century trains and the tunnelling more than halfway complete, we're on track to deliver a truly world-class railway for the capital."

Bombardier has built, or has on order, 60% of the UK's rail fleet.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on February 07, 2014, 05:35:31 pm
Excellent news! ^15 million apiece seems a lot, but presumably that includes servicing and the Old Oak Common depot? Seems you get a lot of train, at up to 1500 pax per Aventra / class 345.

And they do make very good trams and planes.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 07, 2014, 10:00:37 pm
Apologies if this is in the wrong place, I did a quick search for a Crossrail thread.

No problem, wabbit: I've simply moved your topic from 'the wider picture' and merged it with this existing topic in 'across the west'.  :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on March 07, 2014, 03:26:20 pm
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-26479720):

Quote
Worker dies in Crossrail tunnel after being hit by concrete

A construction worker on the Crossrail project died after a piece of concrete fell on to his head.

The 43-year-old was spraying concrete 32ft (10m) down in a tunnel in Holborn, central London, when he was killed in the early hours.

Work at the site is suspended as an inquiry takes place and the Health and Safety Executive has been informed.

The ^15bn line is due to run from Maidenhead in the west, to Shenfield in the east via central London.

Full investigation


London Fire Brigade said it sent crews at about 05:40 GMT to help rescue the workman.

Ambulance crews also attended, but the man was pronounced dead at the scene.

A Crossrail spokesman said: "Sadly, at approximately 5am this morning a contractor working at our site in Fisher Street, London was fatally injured. Our first and foremost thoughts are with the family and friends affected by this. We are establishing the facts and a full investigation into the incident has commenced. Safety is our number one priority and Crossrail sets the most stringent safety requirements in the industry. Despite this terrible incident, Crossrail's accident rate is below the industry average."

Crossrail is Europe's largest infrastructure project and involves more than 60 miles (97km) of track, including 13 miles of new twin-bore rail tunnels, and nine new stations.

Tom Fitzpatrick, news editor at Construction News, described the death as "sad and surprising", but added that work undertaken in the tunnels was extremely complex, with workers "digging into the unknown".

"It is a real blow to the project. It is very much the biggest engineering project in Europe at the moment and it is trying to set a benchmark for the industry," he said. "Crossrail has taken some of the team across from the Olympic site, which was the first Olympics project not to have any fatalities, and they were taken with the hope that they would take across that record."

He added that one worker had been injured during an electrical explosion at one of the sites in 2012, but the project had never had a fatality before.

The rail route is due to open in 2018.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Lee on March 25, 2014, 09:40:57 am
Gleeds have been brought in by Bombardier to project manage the construction of the Crossrail Old Oak Common Depot - http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/03/25/gleeds-appointed-to-manage-crossrail-depot-delivery/


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2014, 08:42:50 am
Tweet last night from Paul Clifton, BBC South's Transport Correspondent....

 
Quote
Paul Clifton (@PaulCliftonBBC)

26/03/2014 18:37
Looks like Crossrail is being extended to Reading. Formal announcement tomorrow morning.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 27, 2014, 10:03:57 am
Tweet last night from Paul Clifton, BBC South's Transport Correspondent....

 
Quote
Paul Clifton (@PaulCliftonBBC)

26/03/2014 18:37
Looks like Crossrail is being extended to Reading. Formal announcement tomorrow morning.


This is already being covered in the other "Extending Crossrail to Reading" thread here: 

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1109.0

Of course if this really does get announced, that secondary thread will be superfluous...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Lee on March 27, 2014, 10:14:41 am
Worst kept secret in rail is officially announced... - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/crossrail-extended-to-reading


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 27, 2014, 11:03:04 am
Worst kept secret in rail is officially announced... - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/crossrail-extended-to-reading

Please refer to the previous post to yours - it's already being discussed in detail in its own thread...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Lee on March 27, 2014, 02:24:16 pm
You're a mod now, are you? Don't be so rude.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 27, 2014, 02:40:18 pm
You're a mod now, are you? Don't be so rude.

Please accept my apologies.  I just found it odd that you'd post duplicate info as well.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Jason on April 23, 2014, 02:36:31 pm
Though the revised Airport Junction is hot on its heels.

The curved steel frame section that has been undergoing construction on the approach was jacked around the bend over Easter.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on April 23, 2014, 05:16:40 pm
There is evidence of trial pits having been dug for OLE structures between Maidenhead and Taplow and evidence of markings for other locations east of Taplow.   Foundation piling cannot be far away


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 27, 2014, 05:44:50 pm
The new span over the Relief Lines at Stockley Bridge has now been slid fully into place.  Timelapse, with a very uplifting drum based background score, is included in the link below:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban/single-view/view/crossrail-flyover-launched.html (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban/single-view/view/crossrail-flyover-launched.html)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 04, 2014, 03:01:09 pm
Here's a link to a report containing the preferred options to making the remaining seven Crossrail stations have step-free access.  Taplow, Langley, Iver and Hanwell are the stations affected on the GWML.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/accessibility-summary-report.pdf (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/accessibility-summary-report.pdf)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 04, 2014, 07:24:01 pm
Balfour Beatty will start installing driven steel pile OLE foundations between Maidenhead and Burnham in August during the night.  so if you want to see a pair of class 20's they will be in action, the piles will be driven in by RRV so you will not see the HOPS in the Crossrail area


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on June 04, 2014, 07:58:07 pm
Here's a link to a report containing the preferred options to making the remaining seven Crossrail stations have step-free access.  Taplow, Langley, Iver and Hanwell are the stations affected on the GWML.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/accessibility-summary-report.pdf (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/accessibility-summary-report.pdf)

The benefit/cost ratios seem to be adverse yet it is still being done because it is the right thing to do.  Wonder whether this applies in other cases!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 04, 2014, 09:41:25 pm
Here's a link to a report containing the preferred options to making the remaining seven Crossrail stations have step-free access.  Taplow, Langley, Iver and Hanwell are the stations affected on the GWML.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/accessibility-summary-report.pdf (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/accessibility-summary-report.pdf)

The benefit/cost ratios seem to be adverse yet it is still being done because it is the right thing to do.  Wonder whether this applies in other cases!

Makes you wonder why they bother calculating them if they're going to do it anyway...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on June 05, 2014, 03:33:56 pm

Makes you wonder why they bother calculating them if they're going to do it anyway...

All part of the process of applying for the money, is my guess. Treasury Rules will insist on it in every case. I am guessing that accessibility and equality cases can trump purely financial considerations to a point. If it weren't, the consultants would have massaged the stats a bit more.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: johoare on June 19, 2014, 03:01:01 pm
One of the railway bridges (highfield lane) in Maidenhead was supposed to be closed (for up to 6 months) this weekend to replace the bridge because of crossrail (I believe). It's now been postponed.. Does anyone know why? It's hard to find any information online about the delay or even the fact it's going to be closed in the first place.

I only found out when my sons school told me it was closing (his school is nearby and therefore affected) although a sign has appeared more recently by the bridge to tell people.

I'm quite relieved to be honest as there is currently no sign that I can see of the promised pedestrian bridge that is supposed to be there during the closure.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on June 19, 2014, 03:06:00 pm

I'm quite relieved to be honest as there is currently no sign that I can see of the promised pedestrian bridge that is supposed to be there during the closure.

I suspect that is the reason for the postponement. Why it happened, I couldn't say, but a lot of assets were thrown into repairing bad weather damage, which MAY have a part to play in this.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on June 19, 2014, 05:16:05 pm
I believe the issue is that they haven't secured planning permission, or rather the Council havne't decided if this is Permitted Development or not....

http://www.rbwm.gov.uk/pam/planning_application_search.jsp?appnum=14%2F01505&orderby=createDate&ascending=true



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: johoare on June 19, 2014, 05:33:08 pm
Thanks NickB.. Strange they postponed it so last minute but maybe they were hoping to get planning permission this week. The sign has been manually changed to say the bridge will close on 28th June instead of 23rd.. Well I think that is what it says as it's not too obvious


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 19, 2014, 06:29:12 pm
Looking at some of the notes Cox Green Parish Council have raise a comment against the Royal Borough, the PC have been want the bridge widened for years, NR will only be raising the bridge to give clearance for the OLE and raising the height of the balustrade to 1.8 meters.

I not sure it is Crossrail that far West doing the work its more likely GWML electrification


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on June 20, 2014, 06:44:02 pm

I not sure it is Crossrail that far West doing the work its more likely GWML electrification

I agree


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 20, 2014, 06:50:04 pm
Article in the Maidenhead Advertiser, states the bridge work is being done under permitted development rights, there were so powers that needed to be granted to NR which the Royal Borough gave.

The Parish Council wanted a 2 lane bridge, NR are only funded to replace like for like, Royal Borough view is making the bridge wider would attract HGV through a residential area which I actually agree it would do

Tizer article http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/News/Areas/Cox-Green/Replacement-bridge-in-Highfield-Lane-is-a-missed-opportunity-say-residents-18062014.htm (http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/News/Areas/Cox-Green/Replacement-bridge-in-Highfield-Lane-is-a-missed-opportunity-say-residents-18062014.htm)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 30, 2014, 07:05:27 pm
Notice this afternoon on the way home some very large steel nails have been tapped into the ground between Taplow and Burnham on the Up Relief side.

By large steel nails I mean steel cylindrical piles approx. 750mm in diameter and some 5 meter long  ;D

The knitting has commenced  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on June 30, 2014, 07:44:23 pm
I noticed those too last week.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on July 08, 2014, 11:04:04 pm
There is a three part BBC documentary series on the building of Crossrail starting next week, July 16th 2014, 9pm, BBC2.

Quote
This series follows a team of more than 10,000 engineers and construction workers as they race to build a brand new railway under London - Crossrail - London's new Underground. Costing fifteen billion pounds, it's the biggest engineering project in Europe and a huge challenge to pull off. As they burrow the forty-two kilometres of tunnels, engineers must battle to make sure that listed buildings don't crack, London Underground trains keep running, roads don't shut and the City stays in business. Crucially, they must drive one of their gigantic 1,000-tonne tunnel boring machines through a tiny gap in the congested underbelly of Tottenham Court Road station without the passengers on the tube platforms below knowing they are there.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04b7h1w


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: centralman on July 09, 2014, 10:48:00 am
There is a three part BBC documentary series on the building of Crossrail starting next week, July 16th 2014, 9pm, BBC2.

Quote
This series follows a team of more than 10,000 engineers and construction workers as they race to build a brand new railway under London - Crossrail - London's new Underground. Costing fifteen billion pounds, it's the biggest engineering project in Europe and a huge challenge to pull off. As they burrow the forty-two kilometres of tunnels, engineers must battle to make sure that listed buildings don't crack, London Underground trains keep running, roads don't shut and the City stays in business. Crucially, they must drive one of their gigantic 1,000-tonne tunnel boring machines through a tiny gap in the congested underbelly of Tottenham Court Road station without the passengers on the tube platforms below knowing they are there.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04b7h1w


Should be quite interesting!

Over the last 7 years, BBC two seems to like these types of documentaries on transport!

They have had the redevelopment of St Pancras International, The Tube, British Airways and now this one!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on July 09, 2014, 05:30:38 pm
Went to a Crossrail Exhibiton at Maidenehad on Tuesday 8th. Not much going on. Had quite long chat with Crossrail rep however it wasn't John Goldsmith who is teh Western guy but their Northeasr guy.

Still he put me right on Shenfield (see corespondance in rail)

Definitely no loos on trains! Even though it's 36 mies to Reading! Stations to be manned from start to finsh of service so loos and lifts where provided will be open. We'll see how long that lasts before efficiency savings have to be made!

Balfour Beaty still think Platform 6 at Maidemhead will be built. However other sources suggest it's scrapped due to difficulty of piling close to residential flats.

During afternoon very few members of the public.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on July 09, 2014, 08:08:41 pm
There is a three part BBC documentary series on the building of Crossrail starting next week, July 16th 2014, 9pm, BBC2.

Quote
This series follows a team of more than 10,000 engineers and construction workers as they race to build a brand new railway under London - Crossrail - London's new Underground. Costing fifteen billion pounds, it's the biggest engineering project in Europe and a huge challenge to pull off. As they burrow the forty-two kilometres of tunnels, engineers must battle to make sure that listed buildings don't crack, London Underground trains keep running, roads don't shut and the City stays in business. Crucially, they must drive one of their gigantic 1,000-tonne tunnel boring machines through a tiny gap in the congested underbelly of Tottenham Court Road station without the passengers on the tube platforms below knowing they are there.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04b7h1w


I still don't get why they call them boring machines. They fascinate me.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 10, 2014, 11:06:44 am
Definitely no loos on trains! Even though it's 36 mies to Reading! Stations to be manned from start to finsh of service so loos and lifts where provided will be open. We'll see how long that lasts before efficiency savings have to be made!

Similar to London Overground, Crossrail is a TfL contract & they staff first to last.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on July 10, 2014, 05:28:58 pm
Hang on, I have colleagues who commute daily from the Reading / Slough area to Canary Wharf.
1 hour? I suppose that's ok - what do people think?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on July 17, 2014, 01:46:55 am
There is a three part BBC documentary series on the building of Crossrail starting next week, July 16th 2014, 9pm, BBC2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04b7h1w

An interesting insight in the work going on, particularly the challenge of threading the Crossrail tunnels through existing underground structures at Tottenham Court Rd. I would have preferred a bit more focus on the engineering and a little less of the 'characters', but that seems to be the norm these days with such documentaries.

Featured in this first episode was a look back to another major engineering feat carried out in the West End in the 1960s - the building of the Victoria Line. Footage from a 1969 documentary was shown. The full programme is also currently viewable on BBC iPlayer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victoria-line


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on July 17, 2014, 09:41:17 pm
The full programme is also currently viewable on BBC iPlayer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victoria-line

Also repeated tonight at 11.20pm on BBC2


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: johoare on July 17, 2014, 10:16:13 pm
The full programme is also currently viewable on BBC iPlayer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00sc29t/how-they-dug-the-victoria-line

Also repeated tonight at 11.20pm on BBC2

Thank you.. I somehow missed recording the actual program so will record that one instead :-)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on July 18, 2014, 01:19:39 pm
From the Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/hong-kong-firm-is-awarded-the-14bn-contract-to-run-crossrail-9614472.html):

Quote
Hong Kong firm is awarded the ^1.4bn contract to run Crossrail

(http://www.standard.co.uk/incoming/article9614476.ece/alternates/w620/Crossrail.jpg)

Hong Kong rail experts MTR were today awarded the ^1.4 billion contract to operate Crossrail services when the line opens in 2018.

The company will hire 1,100 staff, including 400 train drivers, and will begin by taking over the Liverpool Street to Shenfield line next May.

MTR, which already runs the London Overground in partnership with  Deutsche Bahn,   also operates metros in Stockholm, Beijing and the other Chinese cities of  Shenzhen and Hangzhou, and Melbourne.

It  is expert in running high-frequency metro services ^  Hong Kong^s is even busier than London, carrying 4.5  million  passengers a day ^ and its 24-hour services there provided the  inspiration for London^s Night Tube.

Howard Smith, operations director at Crossrail, told the Standard: ^We were looking for the people who were going to deliver the best Crossrail. They will focus relentlessly on reliability. They are 50 per cent of the London Overground operator and have  decades of experience running trains extremely reliably in Hong Kong and have a good record in Melbourne and Stockholm.

^We will be from next year promising to have staff at all stations from start to finish and running lots of extra trains, with about 850 new jobs in the railway industry in London.^

The ^1.4bn deal covers concession payments to MTR over the eight-year contract term, before any bonuses or penalties.

MTR beat off competition from Arriva, National Express and  Keolis/Go Ahead.

Crossrail services are being awarded as a concession by TfL, similar to the one awarded by Transport for London  for the London Overground. Services to Shenfield will initially operate with the current rolling stock but will be gradually replaced in 2017 by new Crossrail trains.

When the ^16 billion Crossrail is fully operational in December 2019 it will serve 40 stations and run 72 miles from Reading and Heathrow in the west, and through 13-mile tunnels below central London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east. Mayor Boris Johnson said he was  ^delighted^ by the MTR deal.

With such news items I normally post the BBC's report. However, they have constantly referred to this award as a franchise, when it is a concession.  ::) I've told Auntie of its error.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 18, 2014, 01:49:22 pm
Wonder what the net increase in drivers is? And where they might come from?

I don't see many out of work currently?...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on July 18, 2014, 02:11:05 pm
I think four years is plenty of time to recruit and train.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 18, 2014, 02:24:33 pm
I guessthey know how many will TUPE across from services they are taking over, and know the total number they need...so could work out how many would need recruiting & training


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 18, 2014, 02:50:02 pm
I guessthey know how many will TUPE across from services they are taking over, and know the total number they need...so could work out how many would need recruiting & training

It's an interesting question.  Currently, I'd say around 20% of all work at Paddington LTV and Oxford drivers depots covers trains that Crossrail will either directly, or indirectly take over.  That figure is probably 15% at Reading depot, who tend to do a little more branch line work.   There's also the Heathrow Connect drivers (who also do Heathrow Express) that will be affected slightly.  That's getting on for 100 drivers worth of work.

Possibly the most sensible thing to do is to transfer Paddington LTV depot over to Crossrail, and split Reading depot into two - a larger part for the Greater Western work, and a smaller part for the Crossrail work.  Oxford could then absorb other work such as increased Cotswold Line frequency and potentially the East West Rail services to Milton Keynes and Bedford.

But, what sway will the unions have in all of that...?   ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: tom m on July 18, 2014, 07:11:37 pm
I can't see Heathrow express existing in its current form once crossrail starts. There is talk of going west but nothing is confirmed.

Considering current industrial relations at hex I can see.quite a few drivers going across


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on July 18, 2014, 07:57:14 pm

IIRC, the MTR was largely a London Underground creation, with Metro-Cammell rolling stock.

The KCR was also a British creation, being electrified in 1983 with Mk IIIb OLE to typhoon proof standard.

We can do it when we want to.

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 18, 2014, 08:18:54 pm

IIRC, the MTR was largely a London Underground creation, with Metro-Cammell rolling stock.

The KCR was also a British creation, being electrified in 1983 with Mk IIIb OLE to typhoon proof standard.

We can do it when we want to.

OTC

Used to be able too   :o   ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Network SouthEast on July 18, 2014, 09:02:21 pm
I guessthey know how many will TUPE across from services they are taking over, and know the total number they need...so could work out how many would need recruiting & training

It's an interesting question.  Currently, I'd say around 20% of all work at Paddington LTV and Oxford drivers depots covers trains that Crossrail will either directly, or indirectly take over.  That figure is probably 15% at Reading depot, who tend to do a little more branch line work.   There's also the Heathrow Connect drivers (who also do Heathrow Express) that will be affected slightly.  That's getting on for 100 drivers worth of work.

Possibly the most sensible thing to do is to transfer Paddington LTV depot over to Crossrail, and split Reading depot into two - a larger part for the Greater Western work, and a smaller part for the Crossrail work.  Oxford could then absorb other work such as increased Cotswold Line frequency and potentially the East West Rail services to Milton Keynes and Bedford.

But, what sway will the unions have in all of that...?   ;)
The only FGW staff TUPEing to Crossrail will be station staff between Ealing Broadway and Maidenhead.

The DfT have already confirmed no drivers from FGW will TUPE to Crossrail.

In fact that honour has fallen on Greater Anglia who have already set aside a pool of drivers to TUPE over for next year. It's worth noting that when London Overground started only Silverlink Metro drivers TUPE'd over, none from Southern (although of course that never stopped Southern drivers applying to work there through choice).

There'll be plenty of work for LTV drivers post Crossrail. Enchanced outer suburban services. Plus new services with IEP. And in any case, the new pay deal may finally resolve harmonisation,  so there may not even be an LTV pool of drivers any more. Someone will have tk drice those new Bristol services!  :)



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on July 18, 2014, 10:08:03 pm

IIRC, the MTR was largely a London Underground creation, with Metro-Cammell rolling stock.

The KCR was also a British creation, being electrified in 1983 with Mk IIIb OLE to typhoon proof standard.

We can do it when we want to.

OTC

Used to be able too   :o   ;D

... but you and those like you in NR and private industry still do a brilliant job, IMHO. All is not lost.

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on July 18, 2014, 11:14:13 pm
The only FGW staff TUPEing to Crossrail will be station staff between Ealing Broadway and Maidenhead.

Acton Main Line?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Network SouthEast on July 19, 2014, 12:29:15 am
The only FGW staff TUPEing to Crossrail will be station staff between Ealing Broadway and Maidenhead.

Acton Main Line?
Of course. How could I forget it!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on July 19, 2014, 08:47:28 am
Like NSE, I think we will see a net increase in driving jobs come 2019. Crossrail is adding capacity to a creaking underground system in effect, but it will allow some extra surface trains. Some extra capacity comes from more capacious trains, but, as NSE reminds us, there will be 4 tph to Bristol. With four tracking to Filton Bank, and MetroRail Phase One, we will see an extra six or seven sets operating in the Greater Bristol area, possibly cascaded 165 / 166s. I'm no expert on HR - how many drivers are needed to operate 6 sets 7 days per week between 06.00 and 23.59?

We may see drivers cascaded, as experienced commuter service drivers apply to upgrade to intercity services. They will have knowledge of working on a railway, so will take less time to convert than to train a rookie driver from scratch. I am sure, given how long it takes to train a driver to the point where he can drive a train full of passengers solo from Bedminster to Parson Street, and even given the imponderables of the new franchising negotiations, someone in FGW is crunching numbers and making plans as we speak.

TUPE, or not TUPE? That is the question.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 19, 2014, 11:42:37 am
Quote from: Network SouthEast
The DfT have already confirmed no drivers from FGW will TUPE to Crossrail.

And in any case, the new pay deal may finally resolve harmonisation

Interesting stuff regarding the transfers - I didn't know that.  I won't be holding my breath over harmonisation though!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on July 19, 2014, 03:33:11 pm

Interesting stuff regarding the transfers - I didn't know that.  I won't be holding my breath over harmonisation though!

And nor will I! Imagine that - all staff across all TOCs paid the same relevant pay for the same job. Imagine the utter confusion that would cause. Might as well do away with TOCs, and make all the staff Civil Servants (although there is no longer such a thing as a national civil service pay scale).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: anthony215 on July 20, 2014, 09:43:07 am
FGW did recruit a large amount of trainiee drivers back last year in May/June 2013 including a lot for Bristol.

I did apply  and  passed the 1st stage assessment however my application is on hold due to the large amount of applicants. Which is saying something cosidering I heard that FGW were looking at recruiting over 100 trainiee's for the Bristol depot alone.

DB and Freightliner as well as Colas have been on major recruitment drives recently too and could be taking on more drivers.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on July 20, 2014, 10:02:09 am
I understand that as a very rough order of magnitude, you'll be looking at around six train crews per 7 day, 18 hour diagram.  The arithmetic gives you 4 train crews to cover 126 hours of operation per week, then you need holiday cover, sign in / sign out / travel to work /wait for train to take it over time, training update and admin time, and so on and so forth.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on July 21, 2014, 04:22:20 am
With such news items I normally post the BBC's report. However, they have constantly referred to this award as a franchise, when it is a concession.  ::) I've told Auntie of its error.

I did email the BBC to point out their error. The headline has been changed from 'franchise' to 'project' and the first paragraph now refers to the Crossrail 'service'. The main body of the story still uses the word 'franchise' five times though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28361782

Tsk, tsk.  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 21, 2014, 01:47:23 pm
We may see drivers cascaded, as experienced commuter service drivers apply to upgrade to intercity services. They will have knowledge of working on a railway, so will take less time to convert than to train a rookie driver from scratch. I am sure, given how long it takes to train a driver to the point where he can drive a train full of passengers solo from Bedminster to Parson Street, and even given the imponderables of the new franchising negotiations, someone in FGW is crunching numbers and making plans as we speak.

TUPE, or not TUPE? That is the question.

Hence the urgent push for harmonisation. Transfer is it goes through, TUPE if if it doesn't, I guess


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on July 21, 2014, 08:45:55 pm

Hence the urgent push for harmonisation. Transfer is it goes through, TUPE if if it doesn't, I guess

With enough changes in franchises and the accompanying TUPEing, we will end up with a single level. Some may call it nationalisation, others may say that entropy will always increase.

/philosophy.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on July 22, 2014, 10:44:47 pm
According to teh Guardian MTR the Hong Kong operator has one the concession to run Crosrail


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on August 07, 2014, 06:24:21 am
From the BBC Proposals to extend Crossrail to Hertfordshire to be announced (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28680186)

Quote
Proposals to extend Crossrail to Hertfordshire are being considered by the government, the Transport Secretary is expected to announce later.

Extending the service would reduce journey times between London and Hertfordshire by up to 16 minutes.

At the Crossrail site at Farringdon, London, Patrick McLoughlin is expected to outline the benefits of extending the link.

Business groups in the area said an extension would drive economic growth.

'Long-term regeneration'
Mr McLoughlin is expected to say the proposals would take the pressure off the Tube's busiest sections and make it easier to improve Euston, which will have 11 new platforms built under proposals for the HS2 high-speed rail project between London and the West Midlands.

Under the plans, stations likely to get Crossrail services will include Tring, Hemel Hempstead, Watford Junction, Berkhamstead and Harrow and Wealdstone.

Yolanda Rugg, chief executive officer at the Hertfordshire Chamber of Commerce said the announcement would be "a catalyst to drive economic growth" in the area.

"It will provide vital high-speed transport connectivity from London to the new Watford Health Campus, and to the financial and creative services sectors," she said.

"It will most definitely support long-term regeneration across Hertfordshire."

The Crossrail project, costing around ^15bn to build, is the first complete new underground line in London since the Victoria line was built in the late 1960s.

The line will see trains running from Reading in Berkshire to the west of the capital and as far east as Shenfield in Essex, as well as linking to south London.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: tom m on August 07, 2014, 08:13:56 am
Surely this is a new line rather than extending crossrail?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on August 07, 2014, 08:37:11 am
Would it not be taking over the existing London Overground service (and infrastructure) to/from Watford with the addition of a short new build tunnel section to connect to the east/west Crossrail line somewhere between Bond St and Farringdon?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on August 07, 2014, 08:43:06 am
Surely this is a new line rather than extending crossrail?

Would it not be taking over the existing London Overground service (and infrastructure) to/from Watford with the addition of a short new build tunnel section to connect to the east/west Crossrail line somewhere between Bond St and Farringdon?

The West Coast main line and the GW main line come incredibly close in West London - see the open map data attachment on the base of this email ... and a link there ...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on August 07, 2014, 09:07:11 am
Going to Watford from Paddington was Option 1 in the 2002 consultation on route options. Obviously it was rejected, but has never gone away. It was raised again recently (and I thought discussed here, though I can't find it) coupled to a regeneration of Old Oak Common and areas to the North.

PS: This is option K1, recommended in the 2011 London and South-east RUS (see section 8: Potential New Lines):

Quote
8.3.10 It is recommended by this RUS that further work is undertaken on the details and merits of a Crossrail to WCML extension, initially with the aim of identifying a route alignment in the Old Oak Common area for safeguarding from development. This work would need to interface significantly with the HS2 design process. Further work is also required on the train planning elements, including the performance implications of the option.

8.3.11 Detailed consideration is also needed with respect to the outermost limit of a potential WCML Crossrail network, with some stakeholders suggesting that Crossrail journeys from locations such as Milton Keynes Central are unlikely to be consistent with Crossrail rolling stock design. More detailed analysis is required, focussing on which combination of Watford Junction, Tring, Bletchley and Milton Keynes would be appropriate for slow line turnback under Option K1. There is significant synergy in this respect with High Speed Rail, since following HS2 it can be expected that Central London demand at key stations such as Milton Keynes Central, and north thereof, would be provided for on the fast lines with significantly increased frequencies relative to today, so Crossrail route trains would generally only be used for shorter distance flows at the south end of the WCML.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 07, 2014, 10:14:50 am
This would be nothing to do with transferring Overground (DC lines) services, before people go off on tangential designs for weird services via Watford High St etc... 

The new route (about 2 km of new construction) would split in the Old Oak Common area and join with the present route used by the Southern WLL services to/from Milton Keynes before passing under the WCML and approaching Wembley Central to join the WCML slows just as Southern do now.

The London and SE RUS proposed an 8 tph service onto the WCML, personally today's proposal isn't much of a surprise, it was always on the cards, more so since the precedent was made by the decision to extend to Reading.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 07, 2014, 10:19:06 am
Along with the Reading extention, this would make much better use of the eastern end of the Crossrail route and (presumably) mean fewer Crossrail trains to/from Shenfield/Abbey Wood only running to/from Paddington.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 07, 2014, 10:34:25 am
Along with the Reading extention, this would make much better use of the eastern end of the Crossrail route and (presumably) mean fewer Crossrail trains to/from Shenfield/Abbey Wood only running to/from Paddington.

The overall London and SE proposal for Crossrail includes 10 tph to Heathrow, subsuming Hex, 6 tph up the GW, and the 8 tph I mentioned to the WCML, so that soaks up the whole of the 24 tph.  In which case I'd expect the Westbourne Park turn back would become an off-peak only facility.

In which case why not move the turnback to somewhere nearer the CR depot - its layout will probably need to be re-planned anyway if as I expect the additionalWCML link will affect it...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 07, 2014, 10:38:58 am
Yes, I'm guessing a third set of lines continuing from where lines 1-6 end through the route taken by the current reception lines where the old Kensal Green wash plant was located.  Probably only fairly minor works required to turn them into passenger lines?  Interestingly, that area is currently being widened anyway, with a slope down to the old wash plant removed and the concrete retaining wall rebuilt a few metres further back.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 07, 2014, 11:27:33 am
I have always thought turning back 14 out of 24tph at Padd was not agood idea.

I'm not sure however if the Relief lines to Hayes can take 10 tph to Heathrow plus 6 to Reading. I thought 10tph  was the limit. Another 6 would eliminte all the daytime freight paths to Acton which presumably everyone would deplore as we all want to see an increase in Rail Freight.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on August 07, 2014, 11:30:44 am
This is a really sensible move, though I worry that it will be leapt upon by the Anti HS2 campaign as another example of cost creep to facilitate HS2 (Euston rebuild). The reality is that it stands on its own two feet. All predictions are that London's population will continue to grow and existing tube lines will struggle to cope in the next 10 to 20 years. This enhancement will provide relief particularly to the north eastern quadrant of the circle line, and other routes radiating from Euston. Relief that will be sorely needed once HS2 is up and running, but will be regardless.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oxonhutch on August 07, 2014, 03:24:47 pm
Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/rus%20generation%202/london%20and%20south%20east/consultation%20responses/s/spencer,%20philip%201.pdf (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/rus%20generation%202/london%20and%20south%20east/consultation%20responses/s/spencer,%20philip%201.pdf)
Proposal to take over the Electric Lines to Watford Junction by tunnelling from OOC.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 07, 2014, 04:01:04 pm
Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/rus%20generation%202/london%20and%20south%20east/consultation%20responses/s/spencer,%20philip%201.pdf (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/rus%20generation%202/london%20and%20south%20east/consultation%20responses/s/spencer,%20philip%201.pdf)
Proposal to take over the Electric Lines to Watford Junction by tunnelling from OOC.

Loads of info there, but AFAICS it is just a third party input to the London and SE consultation, although it can be found on NR's website it isn't necessarily indicative of NR's current thinking, if at all.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 07, 2014, 06:40:13 pm
My belief is this is to take trains out of Euston to make the rebuild for HS2 easier, also if the Watford Overground dc services were terminated at Willesden Jcn this would give even more spare capacity.

It does make sense actually to run the Tring / London locals through Crossrail, even better if an inter change station is built at OOC with HS2, NNL, Central Line and West London Line


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 07, 2014, 08:30:33 pm
My belief is this is to take trains out of Euston to make the rebuild for HS2 easier, also if the Watford Overground dc services were terminated at Willesden Jcn this would give even more spare capacity.

Helping the Euston rebuild is a secondary benefit (albeit an important one) - but the gap the proposal in the RUS is dealing with is basically WCML capacity.   They mention inter alia that it works without HS2 somewhere as well.

8.3.8 The standalone scheme would improve
journey times to and from Central London for most
passengers currently using the affected WCML
services and reduce crowding on the public transport
network feeding the Euston area, particularly
the Underground.
8.3.9 Implementation of the scheme in
conjunction with HS2 would also generate these
benefits, at a higher level than the standalone
scheme. The business case analysis does not
include any temporary benefits associated with HS2
engineering works
in the Euston station area.

In the analysis of option K1 they also mention this: "The resulting 8tph via Watford Junction to Crossrail would replace most slow line services to London Euston", suggesting that they aren't just proposing a couple of services to Tring...

Paul.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 08, 2014, 10:16:27 am
If they are going to run Crossrail to Tring (why not Milton Keynes?) it does bring up the whole question of toilets and sideways seating!

The Milton Keynes suggestion is a stone in the pond, thinking of connections to East West etc.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on August 08, 2014, 10:20:33 am
Here are reports of the unsurprise ministerial announcement from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28680186) and DfT (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-study-into-potential-crossrail-extension).
Quote
Government launches study into potential Crossrail extension
From:Department for Transport and The Rt Hon Patrick McLoughlin MP History:Published 7 August 2014

Plans would see faster rail services for Hertfordshire passengers and pave the way for a more ambitious redevelopment of Euston station.Rail passengers in Hertfordshire could benefit from quicker services that are more direct into central London.

In a move that would boost ambitious plans to redevelop Euston station for HS2, a feasibility study will look at how passengers from key commuter towns such as Tring, Hemel Hempstead, Harrow and Watford could save up to 15 minutes on their journey times via a new rail link between Old Oak Common and the West Coast Main Line.

The proposed changes would see Crossrail services extended to the county, providing direct journeys into the City and the West End. It would mean passengers would no longer have to change at Euston, making it easier to get on with the massive job of rebuilding the station so it matches the standard of Kings Cross and St Pancras.

The announcement came as Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin visited Farringdon station today (7 August 2014), where he met with the 100th apprentice appointed by Crossrail contractor Bam Ferrovial Kier to work on Europe^s largest infrastructure project.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said:

We are investing record amounts to build a world-class railway, so it is vital we seize every opportunity to make the most of these once in a generation schemes. That is why I have asked HS2 Limited to work closely with the Crossrail sponsors to look at extending Crossrail services to key destinations in Hertfordshire. Not only would this be a huge boost to passengers and the local economy, it would also provide flexibility when building HS2 into Euston, making sure we create a lasting legacy for the station.

Crossrail
Stations that could be serviced by Crossrail include Tring, Hemel Hempstead, Watford Junction, Berkhamstead and Harrow and Wealdstone. Any changes will not affect the timetable or planned service pattern for the existing Crossrail scheme which is scheduled to be fully operational by 2019.

Initial analysis suggests 40% of passengers travelling into London from these locations finish their journeys within 1 kilometre of a Crossrail station, compared to just 10% within 1km of Euston. The link would have the added benefit of reducing congestion at the station, specifically for passengers using the southbound Northern and Victoria lines.

The Mayor of London Boris Johnson said:

I have always maintained that the renaissance of Euston is a fantastic opportunity for regeneration in our city and one we should not miss. Providing a new rail route into the capital for passengers from Hertfordshire will be vital for Euston to be properly redeveloped to accommodate HS2 and to maximise the delivery of new homes and jobs in London and beyond.
...

The departmental weasels haven't done a very good job on the first sentence. What Crossrail offers in Herts is faster direct trains to most of central London, not faster trains that are also more direct. The case is similar to Reading, and I'm sure we will hear similar complaints about any loss of the current semi-fasts to Euston. The big difference is that out to Watford there is already a Crossrail-type service on the DC lines, and six tracks or more that far.

I've looked for some typical times and mileages:

Miles (ex PAD/EUS)slowXrailsemifastfast
Slough19402515
Watford175030-40*2015
Maidenhead2450352520
Reading3660504530
Tring32-45*35-
Milton Keynes50-70*6030
* my estimates (see below for Watford)
(Bakerloo is slightly quicker to PAD than LO to EUS from common section!)
Categories fast/semifast/slow don't match exactly, due to different number of tracks etc.
PAD semifastsMAI fasts are not a regular service like at EUS, more a few specific peak-hour trains.

Looking for times on the Crossrail website, I find that LST-Shenfield is 41 minutes for 20 miles/14 stops, while PAD-MAI is 36 minutes for 24miles/13 stops). Why? Is that the effect of skip/stop? I'm not sure which to use for Watford.

Of course someone may have better (i.e. based on real plans) figures.

I think MK is really to far for this kind of Metro service.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: BBM on August 08, 2014, 12:32:07 pm
Interesting view of the latest Crossrail extension proposals from London Reconnections:

Crossrail to Tring: A HS2 Hijack (http://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/coming-across-rail-turmoil/)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 08, 2014, 12:44:22 pm
Interesting article, BBM, and well worth a read.  Thanks for posting the link.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on August 08, 2014, 06:49:10 pm

As well as the advantages described, the improved Thames Valley - Watford (aka Gade Valley) connection should be very useful. Morning business trips via M4/M25/M1 are a pain.

In addition to Tring, St Alban's City might be a popular termination.

With all the work to be done around OOC, perhaps the 6 tracks out of Paddington could also be taken as far out as Ealing Broadway.

OTC
 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 08, 2014, 07:12:57 pm
With all the work to be done around OOC, perhaps the 6 tracks out of Paddington could also be taken as far out as Ealing Broadway.

Whilst desirable, that wouldn't be possible without a huge amount of money being spent.  The railway goes into a small cutting just after Old Oak Common, then you have the Up and Down Poplar lines coming in, followed closely by Acton Main Line station, then Acton Yard, before the final hurdle of the Central Line gets in the way!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on August 08, 2014, 08:13:52 pm
With all the work to be done around OOC, perhaps the 6 tracks out of Paddington could also be taken as far out as Ealing Broadway.

Whilst desirable, that wouldn't be possible without a huge amount of money being spent.  The railway goes into a small cutting just after Old Oak Common, then you have the Up and Down Poplar lines coming in, followed closely by Acton Main Line station, then Acton Yard, before the final hurdle of the Central Line gets in the way!

I assume that 6 tracks would at least be taken out to the junction with the WCML link.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 08, 2014, 08:27:15 pm
Yes, that's where some room exists if you remove the current reception lines (just about).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on August 09, 2014, 04:48:29 pm
Yes, that's where some room exists if you remove the current reception lines (just about).

The need for 6 tracks out of Paddigton as far West as practicable is because that is where there is the densest traffic and speeds are lowest. There is space but with numerous obstructions as far as Old Oak West Junction, now singled along the old High Wycombe line. To go further West would need another span for the Acton - Willesden line overbridge. Then, there is probably enough room between the fences for 6 tracks + the freight connecting lines but not with graded embankments. While this is all horribly expensive, I am amazed at the heroic Civil works already being constructed for Crossrail. Adding a Herts branch to Crossrail will probably come with a ^1Bn tag and I don't think that Thames Valley up Crossrails standing waiting at Ealing Broadway for a path between crossing Watfords will be acceptable.

We shall see.

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on August 09, 2014, 07:36:36 pm
There is no need for extra tracks. The full crossrail service will fit onto 2 tracks east of Paddington, why does it need extra tracks?

This will get done as cheaply as possible!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on August 09, 2014, 08:57:49 pm
There is no need for extra tracks. The full crossrail service will fit onto 2 tracks east of Paddington, why does it need extra tracks?

This will get done as cheaply as possible!

Think about it. The issue is not Crossrail, but services into and out of the Paddington train shed.

Of course Crossrail can run on two tracks - if only Crossrail use them as is the case in the central London tunnels. However there will be residual services from further west of Reading as well as, possibly, one or two remaining through trains from Henley and Bourne End which will use the Relief Lines and run into the Paddington train shed. Westwards from the East and West Junctions at Acton freights are added to the mix which can have knock-on effects on the timekeeping of the Crossrail trains so a certain flexibility is needed.

It is already planned that Crossrail takes over the two tracks on the northern side of the layout from Ladbroke Grove eastwards and these will be connected to the Crossrail tunnels at Royal Oak. Near Portobello Junction there will be a single lead making a flat junction with the Relief Lines forming a line which will feed the higher number platforms in the Paddington train shed. Essentially Paddington will be served by four tracks, the two Main Lines, one parallel track off the Up Main from Ladbroke Grove and the single line from the Reliefs.

The layout I have described will probably just about work as long as half the westbound Crossrail trains terminate at Royal Oak. If Crossrail is extended to Tring then there will be no spare capacity on the Relief Lines at all. Paddington train shed will be serviced only from the Main Lines - there will be no flexibility as the Reliefs will be full of Crossrail trains so if anything untoward happens on the two track section of the Mains, Paddington will stop.

To make the Tring extension work reliably there will need to be two grade separated junctions - one where the two Crossrail routes separate at or near Old Oak Common and the other to separate the Western Crossrail services from the Relief lines somewhere west of the Old Oak Junction mentioned above. I would think this junction would have to be somewhere near Acton Main Line and the Crossrail tracks would be tunnelled under Old Oak to the Junction for Tring. There will have to be six tracks inwards from the 'Acton' junction, two for Crossrail and four serving the Paddington train shed. If this is not done then any hope of using the capacity made available in the Paddington train shed by the diversion of the suburban services, and possibly HEx, into the Crossrail tunnels for use by trains from further out will die. The Mains can support 20 trains an hour, possibly 21, and that's it.

Essentially, if Crossrail simply takes over the Relief Lines as far as Old Oak the choke point on the Western will move from Reading, which has just been expensively extended, to the Paddington throat.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 09, 2014, 09:06:47 pm
There is no need for extra tracks. The full crossrail service will fit onto 2 tracks east of Paddington, why does it need extra tracks?

This will get done as cheaply as possible!

Think about it. The issue is not Crossrail, but services into and out of the Paddington train shed.

Of course Crossrail can run on two tracks - if only Crossrail use them as is the case in the central London tunnels. However there will be residual services from further west of Reading as well as, possibly, one or two remaining through trains from Henley and Bourne End which will use the Relief Lines and run into the Paddington train shed. Westwards from the East and West Junctions at Acton freights are added to the mix which can have knock-on effects on the timekeeping of the Crossrail trains so a certain flexibility is needed.

It is already planned that Crossrail takes over the two tracks on the northern side of the layout from Ladbroke Grove eastwards and these will be connected to the Crossrail tunnels at Royal Oak. Near Portobello Junction there will be a single lead making a flat junction with the Relief Lines forming a line which will feed the higher number platforms in the Paddington train shed. Essentially Paddington will be served by four tracks, the two Main Lines, one parallel track off the Up Main from Ladbroke Grove and the single line from the Reliefs.

The layout I have described will probably just about work as long as half the westbound Crossrail trains terminate at Royal Oak. If Crossrail is extended to Tring then there will be no spare capacity on the Relief Lines at all. Paddington train shed will be serviced only from the Main Lines - there will be no flexibility as the Reliefs will be full of Crossrail trains so if anything untoward happens on the two track section of the Mains, Paddington will stop.

To make the Tring extension work reliably there will need to be two grade separated junctions - one where the two Crossrail routes separate at or near Old Oak Common and the other to separate the Western Crossrail services from the Relief lines somewhere west of the Old Oak Junction mentioned above. I would think this junction would have to be somewhere near Acton Main Line and the Crossrail tracks would be tunnelled under Old Oak to the Junction for Tring. There will have to be six tracks inwards from the 'Acton' junction, two for Crossrail and four serving the Paddington train shed. If this is not done then any hope of using the capacity made available in the Paddington train shed by the diversion of the suburban services, and possibly HEx, into the Crossrail tunnels for use by trains from further out will die. The Mains can support 20 trains an hour, possibly 21, and that's it.

Essentially, if Crossrail simply takes over the Relief Lines as far as Old Oak the choke point on the Western will move from Reading, which has just been expensively extended, to the Paddington throat.

Actually to make it work the adoption of ATO (Automatic Train Operation) set the entry / exit past the OOC area on both routes even on 2 tracks for sole Crossrail use 24tph is achievable,


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 09, 2014, 09:28:47 pm
Won't we also have all singing and dancing ERTMS out Padd by 2019?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on August 09, 2014, 09:36:53 pm
Actually to make it work the adoption of ATO (Automatic Train Operation) set the entry / exit past the OOC area on both routes even on 2 tracks for sole Crossrail use 24tph is achievable,

And I wonder what's possible with ATO and its future developments on a pair of tracks at high speed

Let's do some simple sums at 100 km per hour, and with train lengths of 250 metres.    Trains would pass in 9 seconds - so if there were 30 trains an hour, the line would be occupied for 270 seconds - that's a 7.5% utilisation.  It's not beyond the realms of possibly that automatic train operation could feedback from one train to another, so that slowing / gap closing could work in patterns of multiple trains not singly.   And let's say we got up to 20% utilisation - that's an awful lot more trains.

Unlikely?   Maybe, in the short and medium term future, but think back to when Paddington first opened - would anyone have every dreamed that it would be safe and feasible to send out trains at a 3 minute headway routinely?   It may come!

Won't we also have all singing and dancing ERTMS out Padd by 2019?

Added while I was writing ... yes as I understand it ERTMS may be a step in that direction


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 09, 2014, 10:09:47 pm
ATO is being used on Crossrail, in the tunnel sections; Thameslink is setting up ATO for 2018 for its core.  If Crossrail ATO were to be extended to take out to Canal Junction then the 24tph is feasible.

Although ETRMS will not be in place on the GWML for 2018 nor will the Crossrail extension to the WCML it which ever guise it takes


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on August 09, 2014, 10:12:20 pm
There is no need for extra tracks. The full crossrail service will fit onto 2 tracks east of Paddington, why does it need extra tracks?

This will get done as cheaply as possible!

The presently planned service will fit on to the 2 tracks out of pPaddington.  If additional services to the WCML are added to this them possibly not.  That is why I enquired whether there was space to add tracks as far as the WCML junction!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 10, 2014, 10:43:27 am
If Crossrail is ever extended to the WCML I would suggest it could easily have it's own two tracks as far as the juction. After all they can then do away with the turnback sidings at Westbourne Park and remove  the "Tourist Platforms" as well as all trains will go through.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on August 10, 2014, 02:26:42 pm
Essentially, if Crossrail simply takes over the Relief Lines as far as Old Oak the choke point on the Western will move from Reading, which has just been expensively extended, to the Paddington throat.

Actually to make it work the adoption of ATO (Automatic Train Operation) set the entry / exit past the OOC area on both routes even on 2 tracks for sole Crossrail use 24tph is achievable,

I realise that 24 tph and more is possible on the ATO-equipped Crossrail tracks. The point I was trying to make is that, if the layout is built as currently planned and Crossrail is extended to the WCML branching off at Old Oak, then effectively there will be only two tracks for longer distance trains on the Great Western main line from Southall West inwards - the last current Up Relief to Up Main crossing before the Reliefs become dedicated Crossrail tracks. With 24 tph from Old Oak inwards there will be no leeway to be able to use the Reliefs to work round a problem on the Mains without screwing up the Crossrail services and no room for other trains anyway especially if they have to leave the Crossrail tracks via a flat single lead junction to a single line near Portobello.

One may be able to run 24 or 30 trains per hour on the Mains in each direction to serve the train shed using modern cab-signalling, but that is theoretical for trains with identical acceleration and speed characteristics - not everything on the Mains will be SETs. At this density no trains will be able to make any stops on the mains between Reading and Paddington. That will delight the travellers from Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough... The trains will have originating points ranging from Penzance, Paignton, Carmarthern, Hereford, Bedwyn, Oxford, Weston-Super-Mare and so on and be subject to varying delays on their journeys. It is essential to allow some slack in the timetabling to be able to offer a reliable service.

To get such an intensive timetable to work trains will have to be presented at Reading - the last sensible place where the running order can be changed on a route with tracks paired by use and not direction - within seconds of right time to give them a fighting chance of getting through the two track section into Paddington without causing problems. If outer suburban trains from places like Oxford will still be using the Reliefs to serve stations such as Maidenhead and Slough, they will have to switch to and from the Mains at Southall - and more likely at Stockley Bridge Junction to avoid the Heathrow traffic - as they will no longer fit on the Reliefs from Old Oak inwards. Both are flat junctions...

A few years ago I lived in Munich and saw such a problem at first hand. The S-Bahn passes 30 trains per hour in the peaks (Crossrail, eat your heart out...!) through the tunnels under Munich. There are a series of grade-separated junctions to the west of the Hauptbahnhof as the various branches peel off the pair of S-Bahn tracks. At Laim the route for both the S1 and S2 branches leave the main stretch and then, immediately following, there is another grade separated junction where the S1, for the airport, leaves the S2 for Petershausen. The S1 then made a flat junction with the twin-track DB main line where it shares the tracks along the Isar valley with trains to Landshut, Regensburg and Plattling as far as Neufahrn where it leaves on a grade separated junction for the airport.

Although the traffic density on this main line was not high, there were sufficient trains, both passenger and freight, to upset the timekeeping of the S1 sufficiently often that the trains missed their slots, only some 30 seconds wide, at Laim for inbound trains, and so messed up the intervals and sequencing of trains through the central tunnel. To alleviate this issue yet another grade separated junction was built between Laim and Moosach where the S1 joined the DB's metals.

Having seen the difficulties that operating an intense Crossrail-like service on shared infrastructure can cause, I maintain that unless the Crossrail trains have their own dedicated tracks in those places where the density of Crossrail trains is so high that other traffic cannot be reliably handled, then the reliability not only of the Crossrail service but also that on the main lines will suffer. This means that at least as far out as Old Oak Crossrail trains need their own pair of tracks and both Mains and Reliefs on the Great Western Main Line must continue unbroken through to Paddington. Ideally dedicated Crossrail tracks would extend to Airport Junction for the airport traffic - west of there Crossrail trains run at a lower frequency and so could probably co-exist with the GW outer-suburban and the freight traffic on the Relief Lines.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on August 11, 2014, 07:30:27 pm
Well of course, the sensible thing would be to have no other residual service on the relief lines.

Then Crossrail can take over the relief lines completely (bar a bit of freight).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on August 12, 2014, 11:05:22 am
Well of course, the sensible thing would be to have no other residual service on the relief lines.

Then Crossrail can take over the relief lines completely (bar a bit of freight).

The effect of that will be that Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough will be served only by all-stations trains to London and any passengers from west of Reading to those stations will have to change at Reading.

Or the toiletless Crossrail trains will have to be extended to Newbury/Bedwyn and/or Oxford.

I can see that going down well. ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 12, 2014, 03:40:02 pm
I'm wondering how they would link the WCML and GWML anyway?  As Graham posted on the previous page, it's a short distance, but it is a very 'busy' stretch of land.  Does anyone know what the current thinking is regarding the route it would take?

I'm guessing the current Willesden Down/Up relief lines (which are on the southern side of the WCML in the area concerned, but burrow under the WCML to join the Down/Up Slow lines just before Wembley Central) will be used as crossing the WCML by any other means would be expensive, but would a link line run from the Kensal Green area (which would probably have been ideal had it not been for the massive Kensal Green cemetery using up much of the available land), or will a longer link line be built from somewhere near Old Oak Common to link to the Up/Down Cricklewood line before joining the Up/Down Willesden via an upgraded Up/Down Acton Branch?  Or will a completely new link be built that goes over/under all these various obstructions?

Or are there other possibilities, that won't cost the earth, that I'm missing?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on August 12, 2014, 04:07:56 pm
I'm wondering how they would link the WCML and GWML anyway?  As Graham posted on the previous page, it's a short distance, but it is a very 'busy' stretch of land.  Does anyone know what the current thinking is regarding the route it would take?

One answer (to 4064ReadingAbbey's post too) is "the study will look at the possibilities". Plans for the area were already being reviewed to see how to integrate HS2, which I guess is why this study had to start now.

The original Crossrail option was to link to the DC lines via a longish tunnel. Option K1 in the London & SE RUS would presumably link to the Cricklewood line just before its connection to the WCML slow lines. Note, however, that the RUS studiously avoids actually saying which WCML lines it would use - unless "slow lines" below means "Slow Lines".

This is what the RUS says about infrastructure:
Quote
A new chord would be required to connect the GWML slow lines with the WCML slow lines in
the Old Oak Common area. A number of potential route alignments for such a connection
exist through the Old Oak Common site.

These would pass through, or interact significantly with, the proposed new HS2 station site.
Therefore a robust infrastructure solution is only likely to be achievable if the design of this
link is considered in conjunction with planning for the proposed HS2 station at this location.
Work will also be required away from the immediate Old Oak Common station site, for
example to the Dudding Hill route and its junction with the WCML which is likely to need
to be reconfigured to a double track connection. Some modifications to junctions in the
Wembley Central area may also be required.

Other elements such as a new Crossrail depot strategy and possible additional turnback
infrastructure on the WCML would depend on the specific train service proposal adopted.
If HS2 goes ahead this link would potentially reduce the amount of work required to the
London Underground network in the Euston area to accommodate HS2 passengers.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 12, 2014, 04:18:42 pm
Thanks for that, Stuving.  It's another piece to slot into an ever increasingly complex jigsaw, isn't it!  Well worth pursuing though in my opinion, as it will be a useful boost to the Crossrail route whatever alignment is eventually chosen.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 12, 2014, 07:03:24 pm
I'm 99.9% sure the RUS means the WCML Slow Lines, i.e. the AC electrified pair used by freight and London Midland.

The first significant problem is the lack of a through route from the DC lines to north of Watford Jn (other than via the down fast), so Tring and any other intermediate stations would be impossible to include in the scheme without massive remodelling at Watford Jn, and AFAICT from the WCML(S) online sectional appendix there is no junction that provides for a connection with the DC lines anywhere in the vicinity of Wembley Central, it appears to be a completely independent railway north of Willesden Jn.

The Junctions they refer to modifying 'in the Wembley Central area' must by default be 'Sudbury Junctions' where the route from the up and down Willesden Relief lines - via the underpass and used by passenger trains to/from the WLL - joins the 'Slows'.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on August 12, 2014, 11:02:48 pm
The effect of that will be that Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough will be served only by all-stations trains to London and any passengers from west of Reading to those stations will have to change at Reading.

Or the toiletless Crossrail trains will have to be extended to Newbury/Bedwyn and/or Oxford.

I can see that going down well. ::)

No - some would be semi -fast. With a bunch of trains leaving for the WCML and another bunch going off to Heathrow, there would be paths available for skipping stops.

Journey times to Paddington would increase - no more non stopping trains. But once you factor in the Crossrail train taking you to directly to your destination with no Tube, that time is more than made up. Plus more comfortable.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 13, 2014, 10:29:43 am
I have always thought that Crossrail even from the very first early 90s version (the one to Reading and Aylesbury) didn^t work West of Paddington. Nothing that has happened since including the extension Maidenhead to Reading has changed my mind.

Fine to the East 12 tph to Shenfield and Abbey Wood  but where do 24tph go West of Padd given the limited capacity of GWML to Reading?

It has already been commented upon in this thread the disruption that Crossrail stopping trains cause to the semi fast services from Oxford and Reading which call at Twyford Maindenhead and Slough. Crossrail also disrupts the heavy flows of commuters from Both West and East of Reading to Hayes and Ealing Broadway.

A link to Aylesbury? This was  originally planned but I^m not sure how many tph that would absorb and it doesn^t seem to fit in why Aylesbury?

So where could the surplus Crossrail trains coming out of the tunnel at Padd go?

Some suggestions, why not a link to West Ruislip and West Ealing (via Greenford branch)  from OOC  via North Acton and Greenford (new interchange stations). That could absorb maybe 10tph,  4tph  to West Ealing 6 tph West Ruislip. Electrifying OOC to West Ealing with a link to GWML would also enable Crossrail trains to be turned thus evening out wheel wear from the curves on the Heathrow branch. Which is a problem with the current /Heathrow units.

However that still leaves 4 tph to terminate of Padd so a link to WCML OOC to Willesdan but does Crossrail share the New lines difficult as they 3/4th rail electrified. Use the flyunder Southern use to get to the slow lines? Could these lines absorb an extra 4 or more trains an hour? Where would they terminate? Tring seem a long way for Metro service.

From the start Crossrail has been an East and Central London project aimed mainly at relieving the Central Line from Stratford to the West End and  providing a higher capacity direct link from North Kent to Canary Wharf, the City and West End to relieve the DLR (Woolwich/Lewisham branches), East London Line and London Bridge/Canon Street/Charing Cross.

I am afraid we in the TV will just have to lump all stations trains with not many sideways seats and no loos.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 13, 2014, 10:40:44 am

Some suggestions, why not a link to West Ruislip and West Ealing (via Greenford branch)  from OOC  via North Acton and Greenford (new interchange stations). That could absorb maybe 10tph,  4tph  to West Ealing 6 tph West Ruislip. Electrifying OOC to West Ealing with a link to GWML would also enable Crossrail trains to be turned thus evening out wheel wear from the curves on the Heathrow branch. Which is a problem with the current /Heathrow units.

However that still leaves 4 tph to terminate of Padd so a link to WCML OOC to Willesdan but does Crossrail share the New lines difficult as they 3/4th rail electrified. Use the flyunder Southern use to get to the slow lines? Could these lines absorb an extra 4 or more trains an hour? Where would they terminate? Tring seem a long way for Metro service.


London and SE RUS only ever has a maximum of 6 tph on the GWML reliefs beyond Stockley.  Then with 10 tph to Heathrow subsuming both Connect and eventually Hex and an extra 2 tph, that leaves 8 tph for the WCML.

Having read the RUS again (since my post yesterday) I still cannot see why anyone thinks it is in any way suggesting using the DC lines.  There is no feasible connection route.

Tring is a comparable distance to Reading, and might only get 4 tph itself, with another 4 tph terminating nearer London.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on August 13, 2014, 12:41:26 pm

No - some would be semi -fast. With a bunch of trains leaving for the WCML and another bunch going off to Heathrow, there would be paths available for skipping stops.

Journey times to Paddington would increase - no more non stopping trains. But once you factor in the Crossrail train taking you to directly to your destination with no Tube, that time is more than made up. Plus more comfortable.

Hmm! It is very likely that east of West Drayton the Crossrail trains will have to have a standard stopping pattern - at least in the peaks - because of the number of trains. The Crossrail website states that there will be 6 trains per hour in the peak east of West Drayton and 10 from Hayes inwards - this density implies all the trains will be stoppers as they will have to be sequenced into the tunnel section correctly and at the right intervals. Time saving from skip-stopping between Hayes and Paddington will be marginal at best[1].

So between West Drayton and Reading there are really only four stations which are suitable for skip stopping - Iver, Langley, Burnham and Taplow. This could imply that the longer distance Crossrail trains (i.e., the ones starting from and terminating at Reading) might be candidates so as to reduce overall journey times from Twyford and Maidenhead; the Maidenhead terminators would then serve these four stations. A study of the individual traffic flows would be necessary to find out whether or not this pattern would be in the interests of the bulk of the passengers and, of course, of the railway! It would mean, at only 2 trains per hour, that these four stations see no benefit from Crossrail in terms of increased frequency.

That Crossrail automatically gets you to your destination faster is simply not true. Crossrail will only take you to your destination more quickly if it happens to lie near one of its stations - more especially those in the central tunnelled sections. For anywhere else in London - anywhere else, Westminster, South Kensington, Shepherd's Bush, Wimbledon, Hackney, Hammersmith, Clapham - a change will still be needed. There will be little or no time saving for such journeys.

As for comfort... There have been reports in the press by visitors to the mock-up of the Thameslink trains recently shown in London which serve a similar market. Several people reported on the hard seats and tight knee-room of the layout shown. Comfort is, as is well-known, in the bottom of the beholder - but it would seem that there are questions in this area that still need to be answered. "More comfortable" certainly cannot be assumed.

[1] This ignores the future of HEx - if these are added to the Crossrail flows then the chances of skip-stopping between Hayes and the tunnel portal drop even further.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: tom m on August 13, 2014, 02:06:09 pm
So between West Drayton and Reading there are really only four stations which are suitable for skip stopping - Iver, Langley, Burnham and Taplow. This could imply that the longer distance Crossrail trains (i.e., the ones starting from and terminating at Reading) might be candidates so as to reduce overall journey times from Twyford and Maidenhead; the Maidenhead terminators would then serve these four stations. A study of the individual traffic flows would be necessary to find out whether or not this .

In my experience a lot of the FGW services either stop at Taplow and Burnham and skip Langley and Iver or skip Taplow and Burnham and stop at Langley and Iver, it seems logical as the traffic between these stations has to be fairly minimal due to the short distances between. I cant see why a similar service pattern cant be maintained post Crossrail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on August 13, 2014, 02:12:25 pm
From a purely theoretic view, there are lots of places that trains popping out "at Paddington" could go with a "bit" of extra construction.  Some sensible and some rather silly.  Inner junction options include ...

* Hammersmith, via Hammersmith and City
* Watford and the up the West Coast
* Cricklewood and then up the Midland Main Line
* Richmond, via link to North London Line
* High Wycombe, via Greenford

Taking traffic out beyond Acton Main Line on the GW main line ...
* Greenford, from West Ealing
* Heathrow, from Hayes and Harlington
* Staines, from West Drayton
* Windsor and Eton Central, from Slough
* Bourne End, from Maidenhead
* Henley-on-Thames, from Twyford
* Reading
And I have left out Marlow and Brentford so as not to require reversals!

Someone mentioned Aylesbury too ... via Princes Risborough is included above; getting on the "Met" somewhere would be possible (multiple "bits" extra) and you could then look at Aylesbury, Chesham, Watford and Uxbridge.    Getting silly, yet Baker Street to Aldgate is a bottleneck and perhaps better suited to underground services than to outer suburban stuff.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on August 13, 2014, 07:56:24 pm
Having read the RUS again (since my post yesterday) I still cannot see why anyone thinks it is in any way suggesting using the DC lines.  There is no feasible connection route.

Quite. The point is that the RUS refers to the previous proposal as if it is being resurrected. It does not mention that it is going to use different tracks, so does not address how the implications for existing services would be different. Originally, the Euston (now Overground) service was to be stopped, and he Bakerloo line would terminate at Willesden. What is intended now? Does the route need two metro services? Is the Euston service dropped, or reduced? It's all very well to say it has to be studied, but the RUS team already know a lot about this.

On journey times and toilets, the obvious point is that the longer Underground lines are all less than an hour from the Circle Line to their terminus, most much less. So 40-50 minutes for Crossrail ought not to be a problem, unless you find the Underground already causes too long a wait. There is the alternative of nipping off the train at a suitably equipped station, though the gap to the next one can be rather long late at night.

TfL have a map of toilet provision at stations you (meaning mainly the older members of the forum) can download. You could look at it for hours without detecting any logic in the pattern of where they are, and which are inside the barriers (though that's not really relevant if you have a travelcard).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 14, 2014, 10:19:42 am
The Aylesbury link was in some of the very early Cross rail plans in the late 80's early 90 I think. One of the consultants working on the plans used to travel from Taplow and I had several chats with him.

The link was across OOC Willesdan to Dudding Hill and then down onto the GC line. Linking to the Harrow line not the Wycombe branch.

They even had a mock up Crossrail train at Padd very much like a Heathrow Connect ie a proper outer suburban unit.

Taking Graham's proposed terminal points most are feasible some would be more easy to execute than others and soem would be prohibitatlively expensive.

* Hammersmith, via Hammersmith and City very difficult because although Crossrail comes up beside the H&C the H&C immedialely dips under the GWML so difficult to make a connection which would ahve to be a flat double junction. Although you could reinstate teh Ladbroke Grove curve to North London line and run to Clapham Junction or most of South London.
* Watford and the up the West Coast reasonable woulf require flat junction at OOC capacity on WCML might be an issue
* Cricklewood and then up the Midland Main Line interesting connection from OOC to Dudding Hill Line possible calacity issues on MML with enhanced Thameslink
* Richmond, via link to North London Line interesting but possible capacity problems from Gunnesbury To Richmond. Could go onto the  Hounslow Loop via Acton South Jn. This opens up destinations on vitually the whole of SWT, Southern and South Eastern but would require dual voltage trains. 
* High Wycombe, via Greenford Probably the easiest but I'd go to both High Wycombe and West Ealing from OOC with new interchange stations at North Acton and Greenford. That would help relieve conjestion on the Central Line to West Ruislip line. Might be possible to build a diveunder at OOC to avoid flat junction. Also don't forget HS2 has plans to build (Ventilation Shaft) on the track bed precluding reinstating a doulbe line.

Taking traffic out beyond Acton Main Line on the GW main line ...
* Greenford, from West Ealing Feasible but requires flat junction but see above going via Park Royal.
* Heathrow, from Hayes and Harlington suggest coninuing to Reading when West chord from T5 or use link to Staines from T5 line if ever built.
* Staines, from West Drayton very interesting could link with proposals for T5 Staines link but probaly easier via T5 if link built.
* Windsor and Eton Central, from Slough No branch on mainline side
* Bourne End, from Maidenhead yes but not Marlow as trains Crossrail trains too long to reverse at Bourne End would require platform lengthening or SDO and possible loop at Cookham. Reopen through to High Wycombe!
* Henley-on-Thames, from Twyford Yes, would require platform lengthening or SDO at Wargrave and Shiplake also require some redoubling or a loop. Maybe a second platform at Henley?
* Reading yes perhaps  Didcot Newbury?
And I have left out Marlow and Brentford so as not to require reversals! Brentford also wrong side of Mainlines.

However the problem is that most of the destinations are too far for a Metro stoping servcie and really require proper outer Suburban stock and at least semi fasts.

I am afraid I still cannot find anything to refute my asertion that Crossrail does not work West of Padd and that I am afraid we in the TV will just have to lump all stations trains with not many sideways seats and no loos.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on August 14, 2014, 10:27:21 am
TfL have a map of toilet provision at stations you (meaning mainly the older members of the forum) can download.

Very remiss of you Sir not to provide a link :-)....pretty please?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on August 14, 2014, 10:28:45 am
TfL have a map of toilet provision at stations you (meaning mainly the older members of the forum) can download.

Very remiss of you Sir not to provide a link :-)....pretty please?

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/toilets-map.pdf


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on August 14, 2014, 10:37:25 am
And here are some other specific maps ...

Cycles
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/bicycles-on-public-transport.pdf

Step Free
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/step-free-tube-guide-map.pdf

Avoiding Escaltors - for those with dogs too large to carry.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/avoiding-stairs-tube-guide.pdf
(see green circle with red surround for stations to avoid)
Note that TfL staff will stop escalators for guide dogs, and guide dogs can be trained / certified to use escalators.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Btline on August 14, 2014, 06:55:26 pm
The vast majority of people work in the West End, City or Canary Wharf. Crossrail services all these places, and many commuters will be able to walk to their destination in less than 15 minutes.

Yes, commuters to Victoria, Westminster, Waterloo and Holborn will still need the Tube - but they need to get the Tube already! In all but Victoria's case, the Tube journey will be much shorter than at present.

I'm sure a skip stop pattern can be achieved with the high acceleration electric trains and modern signalling. I'd expect all trains to stop at Ealing and Hayes - including any future Heathrow Express and Reading semi fasts.

I'd say that Crossrail does work West of Paddington, as long as no trains terminate at Paddington. The idea to divert WCML slow lines services from MK, Tring and Watford is sensible. In the East, an extension from Abbey Wood to the Ebblesfleet area should be added ASAP (i.e. before Crossrail is declared "full").


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 14, 2014, 08:19:21 pm
With my current commute to the TLP project HQ I wish Crossrail was in place now; Maidenhead to Farringdon change to Thanes link to Blackfriars via exit the South Bank exit 5 min walk.

The connectivity both Crossrail and TLP will give at the end of this decade is vast ............ Maidenhead Crossrail (just for example) to Bedford, Gatwick, Brighton, Cambridge, Peterborough, Sevenoaks all with just one change at Farringdon.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on August 14, 2014, 10:18:19 pm
* Staines, from West Drayton very interesting could link with proposals for T5 Staines link but probaly easier via T5 if link built.

West Drayton to Staines branch currently only has track as far as Colnbrook I believe. Much of the section along Staines Moor (I think) without track is now overgrown and parts can be walked along. I did just that a few years back. The aborted Airtrack proposals suggested a link from Staines to T5 along the old route although I seem to remember that it would not have followed that route that faithfully.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 15, 2014, 09:58:54 am
Ealing Council^s Planning Committee have approved the improvement plans for the station which will get under way next year and last about 18 months.  Great news for this very busy station which outgrew itself years ago.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/green-light-for-crossrail-improvements-at-ealing-broadway-station (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/green-light-for-crossrail-improvements-at-ealing-broadway-station)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: tom m on August 15, 2014, 10:33:59 am
The old line terminates at Colnbrook here, you can see the rest of it continue (somewhat overgrown) the other side of the road:

www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.479147,-0.509111,3a,75y,5.07h,77.55t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1suxaPt2mnViMmpBtc8-sSzw!2e0?hl=en

I believe it was used for quite a lot of the T5 construction traffic.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on August 15, 2014, 11:14:02 am
The old railway alignment across Staines Moor is partly lost under the M25, so Airtrack would have largely been new - with a flat junction on the Windsor branch and the old bridge reconstructed for a bridleway. Local response was not favourable, based on environmental and amenity arguments.

The London & SE RUS recommended this new line to Staines being done on its own as Option J1J3, for possible delivery in CP5 (really?). They give the following arguments (option J1 is Airtrack):
Quote
Heathrow Airport Western connection
(South): Recommended for detailed
consideration, as an incremental step
towards Option J1.
Would enable up to 4tph
Crossrail semi-fast services to
be extended to Staines over a
new line.

Which is odd, as the real benefit is to give better links into Heathrow from most of the SWT service area, so it's worth doing on its own. At the time of the Airtrack TWAO, I wondered why they didn't split it into one for the T5-Staines line on that basis, leaving all the arguments about the wider service pattern and the Staines Chord to a separate TAWO.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 15, 2014, 05:18:09 pm
The old railway alignment across Staines Moor is partly lost under the M25, so Airtrack would have largely been new - with a flat junction on the Windsor branch and the old bridge reconstructed for a bridleway. Local response was not favourable, based on environmental and amenity arguments.

The London & SE RUS recommended this new line to Staines being done on its own as Option J1, for possible delivery in CP5 (really?). They give the following arguments (option J1 is Airtrack):
Quote
Heathrow Airport Western connection
(South): Recommended for detailed
consideration, as an incremental step
towards Option J1.
Would enable up to 4tph
Crossrail semi-fast services to
be extended to Staines over a
new line.

Which is odd, as the real benefit is to give better links into Heathrow from most of the SWT service area, so it's worth doing on its own. At the time of the Airtrack TWAO, I wondered why they didn't split it into one for the T5-Staines line on that basis, leaving all the arguments about the wider service pattern and the Staines Chord to a separate TAWO.
Nice as a concept to extend Crossrail to Staines the only draw back is the Crossrail stock is not be built dual voltage it is 25kV OLE only; the third rail option for the stock was kicked well into touch when it was decided to rebuild Connaught Tunnels.

The big draw back to Airtrack was the amount of time the level crossings at Houndslow etc would be closed to road traffic


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on September 05, 2014, 10:10:18 pm
Mention of WRAtH on another thread got me thinking, how many Crossrail trains could end up being built?

The initial order is for 65 x 9 car sets, ie 585 vehicles, with an option for a further 18 sets.

1. I believe an extra 2 will be required for the Reading extension.  Then it's not inconceivable that the HEx will be replaced by Crossrail, and linked to WRAtH. That would need another 8 units in service, as the journey time from PAD to Reading via Heathrow would be around 50 mins.  So western extensions could mean another 11 sets in total given 90% availability.

2. The interesting one is the north west extension to Watford and Tring. Assuming 3 tph to each might require another 10 units in service, so another 11 required.

3. There's also the possibility of increasing the central frequency from 24 to 30 tph. If these extra workings were short (ie central section only), then maybe another 5 units would be sufficient.

That would give 92 sets, which could also end up being lengthened to 11 cars, ie 1012 cars in total, a big increase on the original order.

The 18 already optioned may will be with the possibility of 1 and 3 in mind, although I suspect that 2 was too much of a long shot during contract negotiations to be considered.  But it seems very possible that Derby will end up with quite a long run of Crossrail stock beyond the initial contract award.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 06, 2014, 08:18:41 am
Another question to ask is whether the (current/proposed currently) deot space could cope with your suggestion:"(s)?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on September 06, 2014, 11:02:53 am
The new OOC depot will only have capacity for 10 car trains with no room for extension.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 22, 2014, 10:23:52 pm
From the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11113780/Isambard-Kingdom-Brunels-Great-Western-Railway-foundations-uncovered-at-Paddington.html):

Quote
Isambard Kingdom Brunel's Great Western Railway foundations uncovered at Paddington

Foundations exposed near London Paddington station by Crossrail workers include a 200m engine shed and 45ft turntable.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03047/crossrail-1_3047117b.jpg)
Archaeologist Gary Evans working in an inspection pit used by the Great Western Railway Photo: Philip Toscano/PA

Victorian railway foundations laid by Isambard Kingdom Brunel have been uncovered for the first time in a century by engineers working on the Crossrail project.

Remains of train turntables, a workshop and a 200m long engine shed dating from the 1850s were uncovered near London^s Paddington Station.

The buildings were used for Brunel^s Great Western Railway, a broad-gauge railway which carried its first steam trains in 1838, but were levelled in 1906 to make way for a storage yard.

Starting in 2018 the area to the east of Westbourne Park underground station, known as Paddington New Yard, will host Crossrail tracks and sidings as well as a replacement facility for 150 buses and a cement factory.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03047/crossrail-seal_3047121c.jpg)
A oil and gas cover used by the Great Western Railway in the 1850s (PA)

The historic engine shed foundations reveal evidence of the shift in use from 7ft wide broad-gauge train tracks, used by the Great Western Railway, to standard gauge tracks which were prescribed by Parliament in 1846 ^ a change initially opposed by Brunel.

The engine shed, measuring 202m long with four tracks and inspection pits, was built at Westbourne Park ahead of the opening of Brunel^s new Paddington station in 1854.

The 45ft turntable, dating from 1881-82, was built at the Great Western Railways works at Swindon before being installed at the western entrance to the engine shed.

A wrought iron turning circle within the brick foundations allowed both broad and standard gauge engines to be turned, allowing them access to the shed.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03047/crossrail-3_3047112c.jpg)
Archaeologist Gary Evans checks rail tracks used by the Great Western Railway (PA)

Crossrail workers are using laser scans to create 3D computerised models of the buildings to preserve the historical evidence of Brunel^s work and of the early development of railways in Britain.

Jay Carver, Crossrail^s Lead Archaeologist said: ^Isambard Kingdom Brunel^s Great Western Railway is the most complete early mainline railway in the world. Whenever we expose parts of the original infrastructure it is vital to record these for posterity and the history of rail in this country. Using the latest 3D scan technology provides a permanent and accurate model Brunel^s distinctive architectural legacy.^


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Jason on September 23, 2014, 10:41:47 am
There is a short video on BBC News here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29317233 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29317233)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on September 25, 2014, 01:13:28 pm
From the Railway Gazette (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/knorr-bremse-to-supply-crossrail-platform-screen-doors.html):

Quote
Knorr-Bremse to supply Crossrail platform screen doors

UK: Crossrail Ltd announced on September 23 that it had selected Knorr-Bremse Rail Systems (UK) Ltd as preferred bidder for contract C631, covering the supply of platform screen doors for seven underground stations. Contract value ^is in the region of ^28m^, says Crossrail.

(http://www.railwaygazette.com/typo3temp/pics/tn_gb-station_image_crossrail_pic_0135746a60.jpg)

Knorr-Bremse is to supply full-height platform screen doors with a total length of 4 km, to be installed at the Crossrail stations at Paddington, Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Whitechapel, Canary Wharf and Woolwich. Design and development, as well as manufacture of the operating system, is to take place at the Knorr-Bremse plant in Melksham. Assembly and testing is to be carried out at the former Railcare works in Wolverton.

^Crossrail has now awarded the last of the major railway systems contracts^, said Crossrail Programme Director Simon Wright. ^As major construction concludes, work will get underway to fit out the new tunnels and stations^, including ^over 40 km of track, power equipment as well as signalling, ventilation and drainage^.

Faiveley Transport and Singapore Technologies Electronics were also shortlisted for contract C631.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on September 25, 2014, 03:43:49 pm
Thats ^7000 per metre.   :D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on September 25, 2014, 06:16:26 pm
Thats ^7000 per metre.   :D

Yes, but despite the Knorr handle, they are not a stock item.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 25, 2014, 06:25:43 pm
Cough ... I rather think we've used that particular one-liner before: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8946.msg118729#msg118729   ::) :D ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on September 25, 2014, 09:18:48 pm
Cough ... I rather think we've used that particular one-liner before: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8946.msg118729#msg118729   ::) :D ;D

Crikey - that was nearly two years ago! I forget things I did and said earlier this Christmas holiday. But my apologies, and thanks for keeping such detailed notes.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 30, 2014, 08:21:14 pm
The platform canopy is being removed on platform 4 ready to be cut back for electrification also part of the roof is off of the train shed.  All just in time for the winter  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on September 30, 2014, 08:25:45 pm
Sorry, which station are you referring to?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on September 30, 2014, 09:06:00 pm
Sorry, which station are you referring to?

I'm guessing it's not Temple Meads...

Reading or Maidenhead?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 30, 2014, 09:53:30 pm
Sorry, which station are you referring to?

Other than Paddington there is only one station on Crossrail that has a train shed ............. Maidenhead

Also the canopy is coming off at Burnham as well


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on September 30, 2014, 10:03:32 pm
Are these going to be reinstated in as close a form to the original as is possible, or is another part of Great Western heritage being lost in the name of progress?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on September 30, 2014, 10:08:22 pm
Canopy partly cut back on paltform 3 at Taplow.

Flower beds dug up!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris125 on October 09, 2014, 08:59:35 pm
A map of the proposed Crossrail WCML link has appeared as part of HS2 Ltd's community consultations, with thanks to an eagle-eyed poster on London Reconnections:

http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/default/files/event_speakers/LWM-HS2-EN-MAP-010-000002-P06.pdf

Fully segregated from the Dudding Hill line with turnback sidings, this looks likely to be the route put forward in the forthcoming consultation.

Chris


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oxonhutch on October 19, 2014, 02:16:30 pm
Having just done the short shuttle to Colnbrook Sidings in a 150 I was curious as to the future Crossrail plans at West Drayton, particularly the tortuous dog-leg into the old Staines Branch loop platform. 

I came across this plan (http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/w/original/west_drayton_station.pdf) which shows how this will be achieved, utilising the strip of railway land formally used for canal side warehousing.  Quite a neat plan I think.

(Edited so I.I. can stop coughing!)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 19, 2014, 03:06:53 pm
Yes, it is a pretty neat plan and one that was pretty much the only option at [cough] West Drayton  ;)

The land between the current formation and canal is ideal for smoothing out the curves to reinstate an extra platform for passenger use, and the platform 'extension' will, in reality, be almost a completely new platform.  The new footbridge will make providing lifts much easier than using the current subway, and presumably a much more inviting concourse/ticket hall will be provided.

It looks as if work has already started on getting the land ready for the new platform to be built, which will presumably have to happen before the old platform can be fully demolished.  I'm guessing that freight trains will cross onto the existing up relief line before the station (using the new crossover marked on the map), so that the new platform can be built without disrupting the station workings too much.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: johoare on October 19, 2014, 08:28:15 pm
Having taken a fair chunk of the roof off at Maidenhead (hopefully to be replaced soon) we now can't see what is being displayed on the departures board between platforms 4 and 5 unless it's a very dull day.. Also the coffee kiosk either has to suffer rain coming in the front of it or sun (since the sun is low this time of year) melting anything that can melt on the food on offer..

Do we know if it will be replaced with something (permanent or not) soon?

Also this is the place where the information staff stand so they have had to relocate to somewhere less visible if it's raining..

Not sure how thought through this has all been?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 20, 2014, 12:05:13 pm
Not sure how thought through this has all been?

As with other projects that need the station to remain fully operational whilst major surgery is done on the structure of it, there will no doubt be a little inconvenience to users of the station, especially when the weather isn't great.  Sometimes it doesn't matter how well thought through it is, without spending megabucks it is just necessary to just put up with it for a while.  The same situation occurred at Reading in the early days of the remodelling (particularly on the old Platform 9) and is currently also happening at Burnham whilst the platform canopy is modified there.

Hopefully the level of inconvenience won't be too major, but with a new platform, extended platforms, revised track layout, turnback sidings, modified canopies, and new ticket hall and lifts to construct it's going to resemble a building site for a couple of years I would have thought!

More details about the specific alterations at Maidenhead for Crossrail can be found here:
http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/0/original/0002_r_w25maidenheadstnr1.pdf (http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/0/original/0002_r_w25maidenheadstnr1.pdf)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on October 20, 2014, 12:12:48 pm
One thing I've noticed at Maidenhead recently is that Shoppenhangars carpark is getting full more quickly in the morning.  I'd say by maybe 25 cars, prior to 7am.  Is Silco Drive still open?

I know the forecourt has lost a few spaces but this feels more substantial than that.  I first noticed it in May/June time, then it was fine for the school holidays, and now it is worse again.  No chance of parking after 7.30am.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 20, 2014, 12:41:58 pm
Having taken a fair chunk of the roof off at Maidenhead (hopefully to be replaced soon) we now can't see what is being displayed on the departures board between platforms 4 and 5 unless it's a very dull day.. Also the coffee kiosk either has to suffer rain coming in the front of it or sun (since the sun is low this time of year) melting anything that can melt on the food on offer..

Do we know if it will be replaced with something (permanent or not) soon?

Also this is the place where the information staff stand so they have had to relocate to somewhere less visible if it's raining..

Not sure how thought through this has all been?

The planning application for the changes to Maidenhead Station is 14/02115/XRL ; you can find this (with a little persistence) on rbwm.gov.uk.

I can't say I find RBWM's planning portal particularly user-friendly!

They certainly plan to put up new canopies, but my search for even a vague nod in the direction of 'heritage' proved fruitless - you may have more luck; sadly all looks pretty utilitarian to me.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 19, 2014, 09:36:58 am
All Crossrail stations are now to become step free:

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/11/19/extra-14m-to-make-all-crossrail-stations-step-free/ (http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/11/19/extra-14m-to-make-all-crossrail-stations-step-free/)

Whilst this is undoubtedly good news, I'd rather some of the much larger and busier stations that currently have no disabled access that are not on the Crossrail route were sorted out first, rather than the likes of Iver.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 19, 2014, 10:35:19 am
All Crossrail stations are now to become step free:

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/11/19/extra-14m-to-make-all-crossrail-stations-step-free/ (http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/11/19/extra-14m-to-make-all-crossrail-stations-step-free/)

Whilst this is undoubtedly good news, I'd rather some of the much larger and busier stations that currently have no disabled access that are not on the Crossrail route were sorted out first, rather than the likes of Iver.

But you can see their logic: public transport systems have to be easy to understand, and what's easier to understand than 'All stations on [insert name of line here] are step-free'?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on November 19, 2014, 10:52:23 am
Crossrail is also under TfL, not NR...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on November 19, 2014, 11:07:02 am
All Crossrail stations are now to become step free:

Whilst this is undoubtedly good news, I'd rather some of the much larger and busier stations that currently have no disabled access that are not on the Crossrail route were sorted out first, rather than the likes of Iver.

Crossrail is also under TfL, not NR...

Plus TfL has all the money and are trying to make all public transport in London accessibble.

In a way the TV is lucky that Crossrail is now coming to Reading so that stations like Iver and Taplow which are  outside the GLA are being made accesible,

NR has a lot less money and a lot more stations.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on November 19, 2014, 07:25:16 pm
All Crossrail stations are now to become step free:

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/11/19/extra-14m-to-make-all-crossrail-stations-step-free/ (http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/11/19/extra-14m-to-make-all-crossrail-stations-step-free/)

Whilst this is undoubtedly good news, I'd rather some of the much larger and busier stations that currently have no disabled access that are not on the Crossrail route were sorted out first, rather than the likes of Iver.

I guess that's so long and bye bye to the 1884 overbridge


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on November 20, 2014, 10:37:45 pm
Quote
In a way the TV is lucky that Crossrail is now coming to Reading so that stations like Iver and Taplow which are  outside the GLA are being made accesible,

Are you suggesting that if trains were to terminate at Maidenhead under previous plans then there would be no disabled access at Iver and Taplow?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on November 20, 2014, 11:21:30 pm
Not anywhere near as quickly, I agree.

Stations Improvement Fund/TOC/NR as opposed to TfL


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 21, 2014, 10:49:08 am
This article about the expansion of the Stockley Flyover, part of which is being introduced over this Christmas, is well worth a read:

http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2014/12/20/photos-from-crossrails-huge-stockly-flyover/ (http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2014/12/20/photos-from-crossrails-huge-stockly-flyover/)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Boppy on December 22, 2014, 12:56:59 pm
Thanks for posting that article.  I'm very much interested in how the whole project is being done in stages.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 23, 2014, 12:36:57 pm
Plans for Hayes & Harlington's Crossrail station revealed:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-unveils-plans-for-new-station-building-at-hayes-harlington (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-unveils-plans-for-new-station-building-at-hayes-harlington)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: lordgoata on December 23, 2014, 10:42:47 pm
I know something I've been meaning to ask for ages - if Crossrail is extended to Reading, and if I need to change at Reading onto a Crossrail service to Maidenhead - would I need 2 season tickets, one from FGW for the leg to/from Reading, and one from Crossrail to/from Maidenhead ?

I know that probably sounds like a stupid question (and I know there are a lot of "if"'s but I am interested in the answer even if FGW will still run a stopper to Maidenhead), but I have only dealt with Seasons on FGW so not sure how it works when the services cross TOC's as it were.

I have in the past brought a ticket from Goring to Heathrow via Paddington (to use Heathrow Express), and that was a single ticket, so I assume it would be similar ?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on December 24, 2014, 06:15:53 am
Yep, an 'Any Permitted' fare would still do as it says on the can.

TfL *might* introduce further zones, and you *might* be able to buy Travelcards to include just these outer zones, but I doubt it as TfL won't control the buses in these zones.

Of course, TfL, in my opinion, will likely introduce their own zonal fares and depending on what the daily upper spend limit is, you might find it cheaper to have two tickets, if travelling in from beyond Reading. Just have to wait & see.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on December 26, 2014, 09:43:10 pm
TfL now accept contactless credit and debit cards "tapped in" in the same way as Oyster cards, and with the same daily / weekly capping benefits. This may give a reasonable cheap and hassle free way to split the fare at Reading if travel into London isn't on a regular enough basis to merit a season ticket.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 31, 2015, 11:43:03 am
Plans for West Drayton's Crossrail station have been submitted.  Significant improvements to the current station which has outgrown itself and isn't fit-for-purpose even with the current levels of service and passengers:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-unveils-plans-for-major-improvements-to-west-drayton-station (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-unveils-plans-for-major-improvements-to-west-drayton-station)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on February 10, 2015, 09:43:29 pm
I received a letter today from FGW outlining the Easter works programme. It's extensive, and pretty disruptive. My conclusion is that I'll be working from home for a week.

Brief summary (my fault if I've misinterpreted)
The line from Hayes to Didcot will be disrupted/closed from Friday 3rd April to Sunday 12th April.
HSTs to Bristol and Wales will be 1 per hour and run on the chilterns line.
HSTs to Cornwall to run from Waterloo.
In the Thames valley trains run 2tph from Padd to Hayes.
Everything from Hayes to Didcot will be via bus service.

Awesome.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on February 10, 2015, 09:58:02 pm
Awesome.

And the alternative to providing the much needed improvement in capacity?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 10, 2015, 10:05:58 pm
I received a letter today from FGW outlining the Easter works programme. It's extensive, and pretty disruptive. My conclusion is that I'll be working from home for a week.

Brief summary (my fault if I've misinterpreted)
The line from Hayes to Didcot will be disrupted/closed from Friday 3rd April to Sunday 12th April.
HSTs to Bristol and Wales will be 1 per hour and run on the chilterns line.
HSTs to Cornwall to run from Waterloo.
In the Thames valley trains run 2tph from Padd to Hayes.
Everything from Hayes to Didcot will be via bus service.

Awesome.

The lines are open between the Tuesday after Easter and the following Saturday before closing again for one day on the Sunday, so not much of the normal working week should be too badly affected?

As well as the final major push at Reading, the panel box at Slough is being closed and transferred to Didcot TVSC (hopefully, as I know that one is running close to the wire!), and I'm sure there will be lots of other more minor works progressing as well.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on February 10, 2015, 10:07:03 pm
Can't really think of one, but I am glad that I have the option to work from home. Others aren't so lucky and will have a pretty rubbish week.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on February 10, 2015, 10:11:42 pm
I received a letter today from FGW outlining the Easter works programme. It's extensive, and pretty disruptive. My conclusion is that I'll be working from home for a week.

Brief summary (my fault if I've misinterpreted)
The line from Hayes to Didcot will be disrupted/closed from Friday 3rd April to Sunday 12th April.
HSTs to Bristol and Wales will be 1 per hour and run on the chilterns line.
HSTs to Cornwall to run from Waterloo.
In the Thames valley trains run 2tph from Padd to Hayes.
Everything from Hayes to Didcot will be via bus service.

Awesome.

The lines are open between the Tuesday after Easter and the following Saturday before closing again for one day on the Sunday, so not much of the normal working week should be too badly affected?

As well as the final major push at Reading, the panel box at Slough is being closed and transferred to Didcot TVSC (hopefully, as I know that one is running close to the wire!), and I'm sure there will be lots of other more minor works progressing as well.

Interesting. I've reread the letter in light of your comment about the line reopening and I still do not get that impression.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 10, 2015, 10:32:01 pm
I haven't seen the letter, but that's what I understood was happening and a quick check on the NRE website seems to confirm.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on February 10, 2015, 10:42:59 pm
That would be welcome news. If I can find a scanner tomorrow then I'll upload the letter for all to see.
It could be another case of fgw's communications letting down the rest of the organisation.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on February 11, 2015, 12:04:47 am
That would be welcome news. If I can find a scanner tomorrow then I'll upload the letter for all to see.
It could be another case of fgw's communications letting down the rest of the organisation.

I think the key phrase to look at here is 'disrupted/closed'. The slash should be taken as 'or'.  Meaning closed at the first weekend, and on the second Sunday, and disrupted during the week. 

This has been shown in the online engineering access statement for ages, and has been shown in journey planners for some weeks now, and was previously seen on the  opentraintimes or realtimetrains websites.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on February 11, 2015, 06:41:27 am
What happens if the Harbury landslip isn't repaired by Easter?

It'll be difficult to divert London-Bristol/South Wales HSTs via Banbury as capacity there is constrained by terminating Chiltern and CrossCountry services. Will there still be room each hour to reverse 4xFGW HSTs?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on February 11, 2015, 07:13:54 am
I remember last time some of the HSTs were reversing at Aynho, maybe they would have to utilise this option more


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on February 11, 2015, 08:37:10 am
What happens if the Harbury landslip isn't repaired by Easter?

It'll be difficult to divert London-Bristol/South Wales HSTs via Banbury as capacity there is constrained by terminating Chiltern and CrossCountry services. Will there still be room each hour to reverse 4xFGW HSTs?
The XC trains have almost an hour at Banbury, there seems to be scope for them to shunt via the down sidings to make room in the platforms.  There's also the option to reverse GW services at Aynho as said earlier.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on February 11, 2015, 09:18:49 am
More likely, it will alter what Chiltern are able to offer by way of a timetable for their own services. (Bustitution from Bicester, rather than Banbury perhaps? (using the turn-back at Bicester North)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: lordgoata on February 11, 2015, 10:02:12 am
The letter is awful. I read it pretty much as NickB did, so I still don't understand what is happening. It says something like busses between Didcot and Reading, then a couple of lines later says busses between Goring and Tilehurst, so nothing stopping at Pangbourne (which I assumed to mean nothing on the relief lines, so as no platforms on Pangbourne, nothing can stop) - so does that mean trains are running from Didcot to Reading, and if so are they stopping or running non-stop on the mains ? Its about as clear as mud to me.

I think I will be working from home as well.

NB. writing that from memory as I don't have the letter to hand, but that was my recollection of thoughts when I read it. Maybe I also read it wrong...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on February 11, 2015, 10:12:45 am
Here's a day's services at Tilehurst for Tuesday 7th April:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/TLH/2015/04/07/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Stopping trains between Oxford/Didcot and Paddington appear to be calling all day.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 11, 2015, 10:16:54 am
But not at Pangbourne, so it'll be a bus to Tilehurst's to connect into the train. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: lordgoata on February 11, 2015, 11:10:36 am
I'm going from Goring to Maidenhead so I don't really care about Pangbourne or Tilehurst - my point was more it isn't at all clear (to me as someone that uses trains but doesn't understand the black magic that runs them, nor the terminology often used) as to what is happening. I suspect the same will be true for many commuters. As Nick said, my impression was its basically closed for a week - and if thats not the case, it should be made abundantly clear. There is a lot of information in that letter - maybe too much (less is more sometimes).

Either way I will work from home, I am not willing to risk not making it in - and whatever is running is bound to be delayed by engineering works  ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 11, 2015, 11:35:38 am
I'm going from Goring to Maidenhead so I don't really care about Pangbourne or Tilehurst - my point was more it isn't at all clear (to me as someone that uses trains but doesn't understand the black magic that runs them, nor the terminology often used) as to what is happening. I suspect the same will be true for many commuters. As Nick said, my impression was its basically closed for a week - and if thats not the case, it should be made abundantly clear. There is a lot of information in that letter - maybe too much (less is more sometimes).

Either way I will work from home, I am not willing to risk not making it in - and whatever is running is bound to be delayed by engineering works  ;)

Yes, the letter sounds like it's not very clear.  Fortunately the website is a little clearer:  https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/easter2015 (https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/easter2015)

Up to you whether you work from home or not of course, but Goring to Maidenhead from Tuesday (7th April) to the Friday looks pretty simple with a direct train every 30 minutes or so.  All details are on www.nationalrail.co.uk (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk) or the other journey planners.

The trains will be running on the main lines between Didcot and Reading (hence not calling at Pangbourne) due to the remodelling of Reading West Junction and in the Scours Lane area (and I expect they'll use the opportunity to press on with some electrification work on the relief lines as well), but no reason to believe the amended service will be affected any more than the usual two-track timetable would disrupt it - i.e. if there's a failure there's no way of getting anything round it etc.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on February 11, 2015, 04:15:03 pm
Hopefully I've mastered the upload process for the aforementioned letter.  See what you think of FGW's descriptive powers...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: jdw.wor on February 11, 2015, 05:11:06 pm
Although not a regular contributor to this forum I feel compelled to write and agree with those who have commented on this letter. The letter is, I am afraid, symptomatic of much that is wrong with FGW. It is not written in a passenger friendly way, in that you need to have some understanding of the region and railway to make some sense of it and it is not consistent in parts.
I wonder if anyone checked it, other than the writer, before it went out


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 11, 2015, 05:34:23 pm
Totally agree that it's a pretty poor letter.  A lot of the uncertainty would have been removed if the first sentence in the third paragraph wasn't there or was worded better, but a totally rewritten more passenger friendly explanation would have been better as jdw.wor says.

Fortunately, the website page is much clearer and is broken down by line of route.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Timmer on February 11, 2015, 05:44:32 pm
Does anyone know if FGW plan to produce timetable alterations booklets as has been done during past major works at Reading?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on February 11, 2015, 05:53:39 pm
I'm hoping so


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on February 11, 2015, 06:10:21 pm
mmmm this interesting, I am involved in carving up a bit of national network through heart of London over Easter looks like hire car or hotel ...........

Building a better Britain


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Timmer on February 11, 2015, 06:33:02 pm
What happens if the Harbury landslip isn't repaired by Easter?

It'll be difficult to divert London-Bristol/South Wales HSTs via Banbury as capacity there is constrained by terminating Chiltern and CrossCountry services. Will there still be room each hour to reverse 4xFGW HSTs?
Was thinking that the other day. The Chiltern line has enough to do being the main line for Birmingham with the Watford Closure as well as fitting in FGW Bristol/Swansea services. I think if the landslip isn't sorted by then the Watford work would have to be postponed a second time. Again I say shame they didn't do the Watford work all in one go last August.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on February 11, 2015, 08:57:15 pm
What happens if the Harbury landslip isn't repaired by Easter?

It'll be difficult to divert London-Bristol/South Wales HSTs via Banbury as capacity there is constrained by terminating Chiltern and CrossCountry services. Will there still be room each hour to reverse 4xFGW HSTs?
Was thinking that the other day. The Chiltern line has enough to do being the main line for Birmingham with the Watford Closure as well as fitting in FGW Bristol/Swansea services. I think if the landslip isn't sorted by then the Watford work would have to be postponed a second time. Again I say shame they didn't do the Watford work all in one go last August.

The closure over Easter at Watford is still planned to go ahead however this is very much subject to the Harbury landslip being resolved.

The Cross Country's could be terminated at Oxford, or even Didcot,  things will be made to fit, the Easter blockade on the GWML is a key to unlocking so much else on the route


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on February 14, 2015, 12:59:09 am
What happens if the Harbury landslip isn't repaired by Easter?

It'll be difficult to divert London-Bristol/South Wales HSTs via Banbury as capacity there is constrained by terminating Chiltern and CrossCountry services. Will there still be room each hour to reverse 4xFGW HSTs?
The XC trains have almost an hour at Banbury, there seems to be scope for them to shunt via the down sidings to make room in the platforms.  There's also the option to reverse GW services at Aynho as said earlier.

What are the walking 'facilities' like at Aynho Junction? FGW HST drivers will need to tramp from one end of their set to the other, as well as potentially pick up a pilot. Easy to do in Banbury station as has been the case previously. Not so easy to do at Aynho Junction.

Should Banbury still be constrained because of the Harbury landslip then I imagine there will be some rearrangement of pilot working for the FGW HST services. Pilots joining at Oxford for example and some less than ideal end swapping in the cess at Aynho.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oxman on February 14, 2015, 01:16:03 am
I believe a walking route was provided at Aynho as part of the work that was done to allow HSTs to divert along the Chiltern line. It should not be a problem for drivers to swap ends.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on February 14, 2015, 03:16:04 am
Of course, in the not to distant future, if diverts onto the Chiltern Mainline are needed, there won't be a need to reverse at Banbury/Aynho.

That handy new curve at Bicester will be a boon.  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: welsharagorn on February 14, 2015, 04:29:48 am
I believe a walking route was provided at Aynho as part of the work that was done to allow HSTs to divert along the Chiltern line. It should not be a problem for drivers to swap ends.

The problem being that no drivers will "swap ends" at Banbury (or Aynho).  Oxford and Swansea Drivers will drive Oxford - Banbury, Padd Drivers will be conducted by DB Schenker over Chiltern.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on February 14, 2015, 07:34:31 am
Of course, in the not to distant future, if diverts onto the Chiltern Mainline are needed, there won't be a need to reverse at Banbury/Aynho.

That handy new curve at Bicester will be a boon.  ;D

But then the trains to be diverted will be largely electric and that will cause a slight problem - at least for a few years


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 14, 2015, 08:59:05 pm
I believe a walking route was provided at Aynho as part of the work that was done to allow HSTs to divert along the Chiltern line. It should not be a problem for drivers to swap ends.

The problem being that no drivers will "swap ends" at Banbury (or Aynho).  Oxford and Swansea Drivers will drive Oxford - Banbury, Padd Drivers will be conducted by DB Schenker over Chiltern.

Many thanks for that very useful information, welsharagorn.  :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on February 14, 2015, 09:21:26 pm
And they're both right!

Some early & late trains may carry Pad drivers from/to Oxford


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Timmer on March 04, 2015, 05:13:31 pm
Does anyone know if FGW plan to produce timetable alterations booklets as has been done during past major works at Reading?
Answer...No. Quote from FGW Reading Easter works leaflet: Customer trends indicate that digital sources of detailed train times information is preferred, so we no longer re-issue timetables for periods when our service is temporarily amended.

In other words they can't be bothered to produce revised timetables anymore.  :(


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on March 05, 2015, 09:56:48 am
I can accept that FGW will no longer issue paper timetables, but why can they not produce .pdf timetables (ie digital documents which FGW claim that their customers prefer) to go on their website? 

The only information they have there now is an Easter Guide which, despite its 27 page length, prefers vague statements like ^two trains per hour^ (which is of limited use to anyone) to something helpful like train times.  They could probably produce a .pdf timetable for Easter in 27 pages which would be a lot more useful.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 05, 2015, 10:11:02 am
I've asked the question...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 05, 2015, 03:15:15 pm
Success, I think.

I explained the reasons for wanting the TT in at least pdf format, and Andy McRae (Senior Publications Manager) responded -

Quote
OK Chris - noted. I'll chat to my team and work out the best way of tackling this.

Thanks again for your feedback.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on March 05, 2015, 05:37:40 pm
Wow, thanks Chris, I'm impressed!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Timmer on March 05, 2015, 07:29:14 pm
Wow me too Chris. Hope it comes to fruition.

As much as I like an old fashioned paper timteable, I dont think its realistic to expect TOCs in this digital age to produce paper timetables for short term alterations. However, technology exists to produce an electronic version of revised timetables to be posted online. After all they must exist for back office and front line staff?

I will make an exception to what I've said about not producing paper timetables when it comes to the 6 weeks of work between Bath and Chippenham and the effect that will have on the area's services. There is a case for printed timetables on this occasion and would expect FGW to produce them after all it would be Network Rail paying for them.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Timmer on March 05, 2015, 09:46:49 pm
Looking at how the complex work taking place at Swindon late May will have a major effect on services, I hope FGW could make revised timetables available online for this work too:
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Swindon2015


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 06, 2015, 09:35:27 am
I got the distinct impression from Andy McRae that he took the feedback on board for major projects going forward - so I'd hope to see them for both these.

Whether you get paper TTs for Bath/Chippenham, I doubt it....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 13, 2015, 11:36:41 am
As we've got a few forum members who know and like hearing about signalling alterations, here's a summary of what's happening at Easter between Reading and Paddington on the Crossrail route - Stage H of the project:

In layman's terms:
New and more flexible signalling at several locations between Maidenhead and Acton meaning (hopefully) more reliable signals and more signalling flexibility which will be useful when there are problems and are the start of the many projects providing the extra track, signals and routes that will be required to run the additional trains when Crossrail commences.

In more detail:
Acton area:
Acton Middle Junction is being removed (to allow the flyunder to be finished and brought into use by the end of the year) and the Down and Up Poplar lines will once again commence at Acton West with access to and from Acton Yard.

Ealing area:
A new turnback signal SN220 is being provided at Ealing Broadway on the Down Relief line

West Drayton to Iver:
New routings and new signals from the Down Relief to the Up Relief will mean trains can turnback at West Drayton's platform 4 when arriving from the London direction.  Iver goods loop is split into Iver Loop and West Drayton loop and becomes available for the use of passenger trains.  Eventually new crossovers mid way (hence the split) and bi-di working will apply, but for the time being it's still an up direction loop only.

Langley to Slough West:
Slough bay platform 6 is taken out of use.  Flashing yellow aspects are introduced on the Down and Up Main lines for both Dolphin and Slough West Junctions to speed movements up that currently rely on 'approach control' signalling.  Slough Down Relief platform has a new signal installed in the Up direction, and new routings at Slough West Junction will allow moves from both the Relief and Main lines to all platforms at Slough except the Windsor bay platform.  This means the only platform at Slough which is not fully bi-directional is Platform 3 (UM).  Speeds through the Relief line platforms increase to 75mph for trains classed as 'MU' which is up from 55/60mph.  There are alterations to Slough Goods Loop as well with the eastern end being turned into two headshunts.  Finally the East Loop Line on the Windsor branch will be turned into a siding, known as 'Windsor Siding'.

Maidenhead area:
Two sets of flashing yellow aspects will be provided for movements over Maidenhead East from Down Main to Down Relief or Up Relief to Up Main.  The Engineers Siding, together with the Dock Siding will be taken out of use.

Slough Panel Box:
Closes with control passing to the TVSC at Didcot with a new 'Slough Workstation' controlling signals from east of Ruscombe to east of Iver using Track Circuit Block with Axle Counters.

Hope some of you find that useful - feel free to ask for any more detail or clarification.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on March 13, 2015, 12:33:04 pm
Thanks II.

Changes to Iver Goods Loop are interesting ^ is the reason to make provision for Crossrail trains to pass each other?  If so, that could be good news for Maidenhead and Twyford passengers who are looking for faster services into London.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 13, 2015, 12:36:25 pm
Yes thanks for the update II.  I'm currently working on an area a lttle bit to the East of Acton Mainline but there isn't much to see yet as its currently a sea of mud and rubble ::) :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 13, 2015, 12:42:01 pm
Changes to Iver Goods Loop are interesting ^ is the reason to make provision for Crossrail trains to pass each other?  If so, that could be good news for Maidenhead and Twyford passengers who are looking for faster services into London.

Yes, as far as I know the tack in the loop will eventually be extended, re-laid, bi-di signalling installed, the crossovers mid-way commisioned, and platforms at West Drayton and Iver rebuilt.  The end result will be a fifth running line from east of Langley to east of West Drayton.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on March 13, 2015, 02:35:52 pm
Slough Panel Box:
Closes with control passing to the TVSC at Didcot with a new 'Slough Workstation' controlling signals from east of Ruscombe to east of Iver using Track Circuit Block with Axle Counters.

So Slough PSB gets abolished over Easter

The flashing aspects for diverging routing at Maidenhead will certainly ease things in the evening for the UM when the fasts first stop Maidenhead from Padd cross to the DR


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on March 14, 2015, 10:11:04 am
When I went through on Thursday there was a lot going on on the old oak common flyover.  With IEP maintenance going to the old North Pole depot I thought this would be less used.  Does anyone know what is happening and why?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 14, 2015, 10:42:05 am
FGW will still have some stabling facilities at Old Oak Common squeezed between the new Crossrail depot and the existing Heathrow Express depot.  I assume these will be for overnight stabling only. Don't have the signalling plan to hand at the moment but from memory there will be about 5 or 6 sidings.  The flyover can also be used by Heathrow Express to access its depot to/from Paddington Platforms 5 and 6 via Line 1 or 2 to Ladbroke Grove and avoid conflict with the Relief Lines.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 14, 2015, 10:45:47 am
Yes, the second track over the Engine & Carriage Line (a.k.a. Old Oak Common Flyover) is being reinstated.  More details are available here:  http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/0/original/0025_r_w2canalway1.pdf (http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/0/original/0025_r_w2canalway1.pdf)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 14, 2015, 11:01:52 am
Yes, the second track over the Engine & Carriage Line (a.k.a. Old Oak Common Flyover) is being reinstated.  More details are available here:  http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/0/original/0025_r_w2canalway1.pdf (http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/0/original/0025_r_w2canalway1.pdf)

Are you sure that document is not out of date II as none of the signalling plans I have seen and are using show a second track over the flyover?  The Crossrail depot access lines (two) drop down from flyover level behind the flyover on the Up side to formation level outside the Sainsbury superstore site.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 14, 2015, 11:46:32 am
Could well be out of date SandTEngineer - just found by a search on the Crossrail website and there's no sign of work to reinstate the track actually on the flyover yet and the layout you describe is probably more fit for purpose.  Apologies if incorrect.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on March 14, 2015, 12:54:56 pm
Could well be out of date SandTEngineer - just found by a search on the Crossrail website and there's no sign of work to reinstate the track actually on the flyover yet and the layout you describe is probably more fit for purpose.  Apologies if incorrect.

From what I saw on Thursday, it certainly looks like the second track is being reinstated.  The new double track OLE suggests that. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 14, 2015, 01:19:11 pm
From what I saw on Thursday, it certainly looks like the second track is being reinstated.  The new double track OLE suggests that. 

This post on a different forum sums up what is happening I think, and it tallies with S&TEngineers description.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109945 (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109945)

Sp, no additional track over the flyover, but two additional tracks leading up to it and then down the other side on the north side of the running lines.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on March 14, 2015, 01:41:53 pm
Ah I see now - that makes sense. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 15, 2015, 11:31:14 am
Here is a drawing that shows the new layout in the OOC Flyover area (as proposed in 2013).  Blue lines are Crossrail works and Pink lines are IEP works:

(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m92/cbrailways/whcr1001_zpsa6zbi8j0.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Timmer on March 16, 2015, 07:51:33 pm
Success, I think.

I explained the reasons for wanting the TT in at least pdf format, and Andy McRae (Senior Publications Manager) responded -

Quote
OK Chris - noted. I'll chat to my team and work out the best way of tackling this.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Any news on this Chris?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 17, 2015, 10:23:02 am
Quote
I spoke with my colleagues yesterday in the web team and they promised to deal with it right away.
I'll chase again.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 17, 2015, 12:47:58 pm
The Prime Minister and that other fellow were looking around at where the money has gone.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAS9Y-tUMAE7uxt.jpg:large)

Source is the Prime Minister's twitter feed (https://twitter.com/Number10gov/status/577794889422884865/photo/1)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Timmer on March 17, 2015, 04:26:23 pm
Quote
I spoke with my colleagues yesterday in the web team and they promised to deal with it right away.
I'll chase again.

Thanks Chris. Sounds promising.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 17, 2015, 04:56:20 pm
Further to my earlier post above.  Here is the complete final layout between Old Oak Common and Paddington (as planned in 2013).

(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m92/cbrailways/Crossrail%20OOC%20to%20Paddington%20Final%20Layout_zpstj4pqjn9.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: autotank on March 18, 2015, 08:44:46 am
Thanks SandTEngineer. The above seems to indicate that platform 13 will go in favour of a longer platform 12. Do you know anymore details? This is a development I wasn't aware of.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 18, 2015, 09:19:20 am
Thanks SandTEngineer. The above seems to indicate that platform 13 will go in favour of a longer platform 12. Do you know anymore details? This is a development I wasn't aware of.
Yes Platform No.13 goes and is replaced by an extended Platform No.12 which is achieved by eliminating the existing points half way down Platform No.11.  I understand that once Crossrail services start that Platform No.14 will only be used as a last resort as there wont be many (if any) timetabled surburban services left at that time  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 18, 2015, 09:21:45 am
Just beaten to it, but to confirm SandTEngineer's post, the thinking being that there will be a reduction in the number of 2-6 carriage length trains after electrification and Crossrail, so if you were to combine platforms 12 and 13 you would then have full length (10-car IEP) platforms 11 and 12 and a shorter platform 14 instead of short platforms 11*, 12, 13, and 14.  Makes sense to me.

* Platform 11 is split into two sections and can be used as one long platform, but is very rarely used as such because access to and from platform 12 is then blocked.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oxonhutch on March 18, 2015, 10:45:20 am
That goods lift at the end of Platform 12 will have to go.  Let's hope the powers-that-be also alter the canopy and valancing on the existing Platform 13 to suit the new extended edge of 12.  Do II's comments infer that Chiltern will loose their one path per day into Paddington (usually Platform 14).  I understand that their route past North Acton might be compromised by HS2 ventilation shafts but are there other plans to terminate this 'Parliamentary' (?) service in the near future?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 18, 2015, 11:13:20 am
Yes, the goods lift would be removed - pretty sure it's lain unused for many years.  Chiltern's service could continue and use platform 14 as I would imagine that off-peak capacity will still be available with the extra long-distance services cancelled out by the removal of most of the local services.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 18, 2015, 04:03:50 pm
The platform changes at Paddington are a component of the 'IEP capacity scheme' and were flagged up in the CP5 enhancements milestones document, the March 2014 edition includes this, noting that P14 is also extended, I believe that is right out into the throat alongside the LU tracks.

Quote
...at Paddington station: combining two short platforms (12 and 13) to provide a single
platform to accommodate a 260m long Class 800 or Class 801 train or 12 x 20m car EMU;
and extension of platform 14 to accommodate a 12 x 20m car EMU contributing to the
delivery of the HLOS capacity metric for London Paddington.

March 14 was the first time it was confirmed in the text, during CP4 they only mentioned that fairly generalised IEP capacity proposals were being reviewed.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 18, 2015, 04:14:03 pm
Thanks for that extra info, Paul.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oxonhutch on March 18, 2015, 04:40:19 pm
Checking out Google maps and satellite images I struggle to see how they will fit in a 240 m long platform face in that area.  There is a bit of room in the underground section for a few 10s of metres of track (in the LU tunnel convergence) but in the station throat they need to find about 100m of single-sided platform between Bishops Road and Westbourne Bridge.  I will be interested in seeing the plans.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on March 18, 2015, 04:57:36 pm
Yes, the goods lift would be removed - pretty sure it's lain unused for many years.

The Plat 12 lift was disconnected in the early 1980's, it was cheaper to build the connection from 12 to 13/14 for the Red Star Parcels and Royal Mail than refurbish it and the lift on Plat 8 which as a pain of a lift to work on because the platform to subway was OOU the wooden guides below the platform were warped so the lift car could never go down to a sensible level to work on the dog's (emergency break system!!!) and the lift well was always flooded.

Cut my teeth on lift maintenance on those old Wadsworth lifts


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 18, 2015, 07:01:31 pm
The platform changes at Paddington are a component of the 'IEP capacity scheme' and were flagged up in the CP5 enhancements milestones document, the March 2014 edition includes this, noting that P14 is also extended, I believe that is right out into the throat alongside the LU tracks.

Quote
...at Paddington station: combining two short platforms (12 and 13) to provide a single
platform to accommodate a 260m long Class 800 or Class 801 train or 12 x 20m car EMU;
and extension of platform 14 to accommodate a 12 x 20m car EMU contributing to the
delivery of the HLOS capacity metric for London Paddington.

March 14 was the first time it was confirmed in the text, during CP4 they only mentioned that fairly generalised IEP capacity proposals were being reviewed.

Paul

But, oddly, that description has been removed from the December 2014 update.

The milestone reference for it, however, is the same:
Quote

MilestoneDescriptionDateStatus
Paddington station capacity   
 works ^GRIP 3 complete
Single option selection   August 2011   Complete

And no mention of GRIP 4 or later.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 19, 2015, 10:43:43 am
According to the most current Signalling Scheme Plan (November 2012) the Platform No.14 available length will be 178m (currently 148m).  I am aware that the Signalling Scheme Plan is being updated so this may change.

Out of interest the starting signals on Platform Nos. 1 to 5 are being moved further West by approximately 25m to extend the available standage and that Platform No.12 once extended will be the longest platform in the station at 334m.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 19, 2015, 11:03:47 am
According to the most current Signalling Scheme Plan (November 2012) the Platform No.14 available length will be 178m (currently 148m).  I am aware that the Signalling Scheme Plan is being updated so this may change.

So it will be able to accommodate an 8-car EMU with 20m vehicles.  Sensible provision, and that will presumably take it as far as they can without costly redesign work.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 19, 2015, 11:55:13 am
Looks like quite a fluid situation then.  Perhaps the 240m length was a transitional idea, but 'IEP capacity' were unwilling to fund it, so it has been moved into the 'Thames Valley EMU' project's area of work, and they don't need actually need it yet.

Or something like that - and in any case the latest CP5 milestones author wasn't sure where to include it so edited it out badly...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Timmer on March 19, 2015, 04:59:33 pm
Quote
I spoke with my colleagues yesterday in the web team and they promised to deal with it right away.
I'll chase again.

Hmmm well it wasn't much of a promise from the web team unless they are on the site and I can't find them.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on July 23, 2015, 07:15:04 pm
I was wondering if anyone knows what the multi coloured panelled 'shed on stilts' is that has been built outside of Paddington on the crossrail site? Having seen it be built over the past year I thought that all would become clear to me but I'm still stumped.

Same question goes for the concrete structure next to the stilt shed that looks like a two-storey car park.

Thanks


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 23, 2015, 07:23:01 pm
I was wondering if anyone knows what the multi coloured panelled 'shed on stilts' is that has been built outside of Paddington on the crossrail site? Having seen it be built over the past year I thought that all would become clear to me but I'm still stumped.

Same question goes for the concrete structure next to the stilt shed that looks like a two-storey car park.

Thanks

The shed is a new concrete batching plant to replace the one demolished.
The concrete slab on stilts I believe is for busses again to replace what was there before the area was cleared.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: NickB on July 23, 2015, 10:54:18 pm
Thanks!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 11, 2015, 06:17:07 pm
Looks like work has started on the new platform at West Ealing which will (from next year, I think) allow the Greenford service to operate as a shuttle service during the peaks (and the rest of the day?) and not mean a 2-car unit takes up two vital paths out of Paddington each hour. 

I'm hoping EMUs arriving next year will be able to use these paths for extra services to places like Southall, Hayes and West Drayton before the Crossrail services commence to provide a much needed boost in capacity - though I'm mindful that Crossrail construction means Line 6 near Paddington will be cut short for a while, so I'm not sure those extra paths will exist?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on August 11, 2015, 10:26:27 pm
Yes, the shuttle will operate all through the day, I did hear it would be increased to every 20 minutes during rush hour, though this hasn't been confirmed of late.

The paths that are then freed up from Paddington will immediately be covered by the new electrics (365s?) which will run a shuttle to Hayes and I believe this will continue until crossrail is up and running.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on August 11, 2015, 10:28:33 pm
Once again referring to the most current scheme plan I have access to, Line 6 is cut back permanently to allow the Crossrail lines to merge into the relief lines roughly in the Ladbroke Grove area.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 11, 2015, 11:32:20 pm

The paths that are then freed up from Paddington will immediately be covered by the new electrics (365s?) which will run a shuttle to Hayes and I believe this will continue until crossrail is up and running.
I found a few days ago that the direct award franchise agreement is now available on DfT's site, and has the first 10 new EMUs as 387/1s ex GTR, 6 by end of March 16, and another 4 by end of April, the first 365s are not until 2017.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/426295/FGW_Interim_Franchise_Agreement_02.pdf

Loads more rolling stock dates in there...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on August 12, 2015, 07:00:26 am
Thanks Paul, yes I wasn't sure if it was 365s or not, thank you for clearing that up for me.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on August 12, 2015, 09:47:14 am
Passengers inbound from Hayes are going to very disappointed when Crossrail comes in with it's non loo cattle trucks compared to the 365s they've travelling in up until then!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 12, 2015, 10:06:21 am
Passengers inbound from Hayes are going to very disappointed when Crossrail comes in with it's non loo cattle trucks compared to the 365s they've travelling in up until then!

I know you're of the opinion that running Crossrail west of Paddington isn't going to work, but personally I'll be waiting to see the interiors of the trains before describing them as 'cattle trucks' which in my opinion is unlikely given that each and every train will be over 200 metres long compared with the 160 metres (at best) that the 365's will provide. 

As for loos, short distances from the likes of West Drayton and Hayes into London won't, in my opinion, cause many problems.  The length of journey will be comparable, probably less, than many commutes in on the Met and Central lines, which of course have no toilets.  Possibly more of an issue on longer journeys from places like Twyford, Maidenhead, and, if the extention gets the go-ahead, places like Tring and Berkhamsted.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on August 12, 2015, 10:12:47 am
I found a few days ago that the direct award franchise agreement is now available on DfT's site,

Been there some time....BNM drew our attention to this.

What we've been waiting for is the SLC that goes with it & on checking, I notice that this is now posted too - can only have gone up very recently as I've been regularly checking for it....

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/452229/first-great-western-service-level-commitment-3a-22032015.pdf


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on August 12, 2015, 01:35:31 pm
I found a few days ago that the direct award franchise agreement is now available on DfT's site,

Been there some time....BNM drew our attention to this.


Yes, and I even posted the same info about the 387s from it at the time, back in May!

Memory must be going...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 12, 2015, 06:37:05 pm
Passengers inbound from Hayes are going to very disappointed when Crossrail comes in with it's non loo cattle trucks compared to the 365s they've travelling in up until then!

I know you're of the opinion that running Crossrail west of Paddington isn't going to work, but personally I'll be waiting to see the interiors of the trains before describing them as 'cattle trucks' which in my opinion is unlikely given that each and every train will be over 200 metres long compared with the 160 metres (at best) that the 365's will provide. 

As for loos, short distances from the likes of West Drayton and Hayes into London won't, in my opinion, cause many problems.  The length of journey will be comparable, probably less, than many commutes in on the Met and Central lines, which of course have no toilets.  Possibly more of an issue on longer journeys from places like Twyford, Maidenhead, and, if the extention gets the go-ahead, places like Tring and Berkhamsted.

I agree need to wait to see what the new Crossrail trains look like, I had a very good look around the Thameslink class 700 on Saturday night the interior is very good for a 12 car train there is only 2 loos ad absolutely no buffet or plan for trolley service 

Not sure folks will be too impressed with the 365 they are a 25kV version of the 165 no aircon compared to the 387/1 which are fully aircon and the 0-60 on them compared to 365 is better


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 17, 2015, 08:53:59 am
Notice on both the Main Lines and Relief Lines along the route between Maidenhead and Airport Jcn stove pipes, insulators, registration arm support tubes and some other SPS.

(Techie note  ;D  SPS - Small Part Steel, ie bits of steel that just have parts numbers and no common name.   Stove Pipes are the steel tubes (round or square) the drop down from the structure above to support the OLE components, why stove pipe because they look like the old iron stoves chimneys)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 19, 2015, 02:34:01 pm
The TBM have gone and left a big hole ................ so now its time to fill them with some concrete http://www.europeanrailwayreview.com/24531/rail-industry-news/crossrail-welcomes-465-metre-long-concreting-train/

The concrete batching plant on wheels has arrived to start laying the slab for the track


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on August 24, 2015, 09:14:25 pm
The OLE insulators, support booms between Maidenhead and Stockley Park are getting added to all the time.  Also today I notice the 25kV circuit breakers and ancillary equipment building have been delivered to the Slough AT site


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 10, 2015, 11:51:46 am
A Crossrail Class 345 test vehicle has now been produced:

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/09/10/bombardier-completes-first-crossrail-body-shell/ (http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/09/10/bombardier-completes-first-crossrail-body-shell/)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 05, 2015, 09:18:46 am
I hope it's ok if I ask a very basic question about Crossrail here. I can't think of another topic it would fit into, but it is quite basic!

Simply, how will Crossrail affect journeys to and more importantly across London from this part of the country? I presume that travelling to London you'll arrive at Paddington as now and onward travel will be via Tube, taxi or whatever, just as today. But sometimes I go to Colchester. (Yes, I admit to visiting Essex; I even have friends there!  :o) At the moment this is usually train to Paddington, tube to Liverpool St then a horrible Greater Anglia service to Colchester. When Crossrail is done, will it be possible to use that from Paddington ^ or even from Reading ^ as far as Shenfield, thus hopefully missing out the very worst of the Essex commuter-line nightmare? Come to that, is Crossrail even to be accepting National Rail tickets or does it have its own ticketing system? Or a bit of both, like LU?

I dare say the answer is already in this thread, somewhere, but I'm afraid I haven't had time to wade through all of it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on November 05, 2015, 09:27:30 am
I suspect that the fastest route will be GWR to Pad, Crossrail to Liverpool St and fast non-stop train to Colchester. Yes, you will be able to do Crossrail from Reading to Shenfield & slow(er) train to Colchester, but it's likely to be at least an hour longer! Normal BR fares will be available, but I suspect Crossrail will launch it's own lower fares at some stage to compete.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 05, 2015, 11:29:06 am
The journey time calculator on the Crossrail website suggests it will take 1h 42m to get from Reading to Shenfield direct (with no loo!), so with short wait for a Colchester train, that would put the through journey time at around 2h30m.  Currently, allowing for transfer time, Reading to Paddington, tube, then Liverpool Street to Colchester takes between 2h15 and 2h30 minutes, so it's likely to be slower by Crossrail than it currently is, but not much slower.  That being said you can often 'beat the journey planner' on tube transfers if you get lucky with the underground.

Another option post-Crossrail is Reading to Liverpool Street by Crossrail is listed at 61 minutes, so with a good connection from there to Colchester you'd be looking at beating the 2 hour mark, and, as ChrisB the quickest way of all would likely be able to trim that down to around 1h45 with a fast train RDG-PAD, Crossrail to LST then LST-COL fast train.

No shortage of options anyway!   ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 05, 2015, 12:40:12 pm
Yes, certainly options! Good point about there being no loo on the Crossrail. I hadn't given any thought to the interior layout of the Crossrail trains, but I suppose they are essentially an overgrown tube or tram. Mind you, some of the Greater Anglia trains seem the same!  >:(


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on November 05, 2015, 03:38:42 pm
Yes, certainly options! Good point about there being no loo on the Crossrail. I hadn't given any thought to the interior layout of the Crossrail trains, but I suppose they are essentially an overgrown tube or tram. Mind you, some of the Greater Anglia trains seem the same!  >:(

My theory is that they'll actually have a majority of a fairly traditional seating layout, albeit as you say there are no toilets.  They've announced that they'll have 450 seats in the 9 carriages, so an average of 50 seats, but although the carriages are slightly longer than originally expected at 22.5m or so, that length is taken up by a third set of doors each side.  So basically they need to get 50 seats in roughly the same space as a 20m car, and I believe that forces the majority of seats to be 2+2.   Many cars will need more seats, once a couple of them are slightly reduced in capacity to take wheelchairs, prams, and bikes etc.

LO 378s are usually held up as an example of what to expect, as they are fully longitudinal (very tube like) but they only average about 34 seats per 20m car.   Fitting 16 extra seats into a 378 would be quite a challenge...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on November 05, 2015, 03:49:46 pm
How about the S-class underground Met Line stock?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on November 05, 2015, 04:43:30 pm
How about the S-class underground Met Line stock?

Yes, they get about 300 seats per 8 car, lets say 37 per car in a 'half and half' longitudinal and normal layout.  So is the 345 stock scaled up space capable of adding another 13 using a similar layout?   Perhaps, but it depends how much stand back space is required to give comfortable standing for the other 1050 passengers, I think.  But these are averages, you only need a couple of large multipurpose spaces and the 50 per car goes up to around 54 per normal car.  However they turn out though, I don't think they can be LO 378 clones, as many people have proposed.   Probably more like the Thameslink 700s than anything else.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on November 05, 2015, 08:40:27 pm
I hope it's ok if I ask a very basic question about Crossrail here. I can't think of another topic it would fit into, but it is quite basic!

Simply, how will Crossrail affect journeys to and more importantly across London from this part of the country? I presume that travelling to London you'll arrive at Paddington as now and onward travel will be via Tube, taxi or whatever, just as today. But sometimes I go to Colchester. (Yes, I admit to visiting Essex; I even have friends there!  :o) At the moment this is usually train to Paddington, tube to Liverpool St then a horrible Greater Anglia service to Colchester. When Crossrail is done, will it be possible to use that from Paddington ^ or even from Reading ^ as far as Shenfield, thus hopefully missing out the very worst of the Essex commuter-line nightmare? Come to that, is Crossrail even to be accepting National Rail tickets or does it have its own ticketing system? Or a bit of both, like LU?

I dare say the answer is already in this thread, somewhere, but I'm afraid I haven't had time to wade through all of it.

I would suggest GWR (or whatever guise it will be at the time) to Padd then Crossrail to Stratford and pick up a train to Colchester


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 05, 2015, 09:20:40 pm
Here is an Autumn 2015 update on the construction of Paddington Crossrail station https://youtu.be/y5Nd9-OrSwQ


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 06, 2015, 07:03:34 am
Quote
I would suggest GWR (or whatever guise it will be at the time) to Padd then Crossrail to Stratford and pick up a train to Colchester

Personally I would do GWR to Pad, crossrail to Liverpool Street, then Abellio to Colchester, this gives you more time to get on the train and more choices of seats than boarding at Stratford, also services from Stratford are either slow or the semi-fasts stop at Chelmsford only, Liverpool Street has those same options plus the option of an hourly non-stopper.

Coming back however then unless catching the non-stopper, a change at Stratford may be more preferable rather than boarding a crossrail at Liverpool Street


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on November 06, 2015, 07:05:01 am
Here is an Autumn 2015 update on the construction of Paddington Crossrail station https://youtu.be/y5Nd9-OrSwQ

I look forward to using it occasional when I retire :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 13, 2015, 02:35:11 pm
Short article, complete with time-lapse video, of the progress over the final stage of the Stockley Flyover, which, when finished at Christmas next year, removes the conflicting moves at the junction.

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/crossrail-programme-reaches-major-milestone-10439808 (http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/crossrail-programme-reaches-major-milestone-10439808)

Work can now continue with building the ramp up to the new flyover and installing the track and signalling.  The constrained nature of the site means it will take over twice as long to do than on a normal site, hence there still being another 13 months until it's finished.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on November 13, 2015, 05:48:48 pm
Short article, complete with time-lapse video, of the progress over the final stage of the Stockley Flyover, which, when finished at Christmas next year, removes the conflicting moves at the junction.


Odd way of describing the work, but as is often the case it is a direct copy of the Crossrail website news item.  They too report that they have positioned all those concrete beams to 'support the second ramp'. 

What they really should be saying is that the beams form the flyover deck that will carry the track over the reliefs towards the second ramp (for the route from the airport to the up main for Heathrow Express services).

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on November 13, 2015, 07:29:23 pm
Short article, complete with time-lapse video, of the progress over the final stage of the Stockley Flyover, which, when finished at Christmas next year, removes the conflicting moves at the junction.


Odd way of describing the work, but as is often the case it is a direct copy of the Crossrail website news item.  They too report that they have positioned all those concrete beams to 'support the second ramp'. 

What they really should be saying is that the beams form the flyover deck that will carry the track over the reliefs towards the second ramp (for the route from the airport to the up main for Heathrow Express services).

Paul

Google Earth's satellite view of this is from April 2015, just after they put the first of those beams in place. That was just when the new flyover was ready to use as a link to the UR, and the old flyover is of course staying. I think that the new connection from that to the DR has now been made, while the old link from the DM is temporarily left in place.

What you can also see is the narrow gap in which the support wall was built, and where the new ramp will be built next.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on November 14, 2015, 12:42:42 pm
What you can also see is the narrow gap in which the support wall was built, and where the new ramp will be built next.

A significant part of the retaining walls for the new ramp seem to be already in position - at least as viewed at speed from a passing HST.  Presumably it will be another earth filled structure with the side walls made of prefabricated interlocking sections, linked together across the gap?

There is a good article showing the various work stages and eventual track layout here, (it may have been posted before, but not everyone will have seen it):  http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2014/12/20/photos-from-crossrails-huge-stockly-flyover/

Stage K (December 16) suggests there will still be a secondary route to the up main using the original flyover.  Normally the original flyover operates as down relief to airport only, having been built originally for airport to up main...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 14, 2015, 04:06:04 pm
As sometimes its a bit difficult to find things (well I do anyway) here is the Stockley Viaduct works video link https://youtu.be/MDN1iMs2BZg

Warning:Time lapse videos such as this do cause flashing images to be displayed at times

Don't you sometimes wish all railway new works could be done that quick :D ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 20, 2015, 03:33:56 pm
Yes, certainly options! Good point about there being no loo on the Crossrail. I hadn't given any thought to the interior layout of the Crossrail trains, but I suppose they are essentially an overgrown tube or tram. Mind you, some of the Greater Anglia trains seem the same!  >:(

My theory is that they'll actually have a majority of a fairly traditional seating layout, albeit as you say there are no toilets.  They've announced that they'll have 450 seats in the 9 carriages, so an average of 50 seats, but although the carriages are slightly longer than originally expected at 22.5m or so, that length is taken up by a third set of doors each side.  So basically they need to get 50 seats in roughly the same space as a 20m car, and I believe that forces the majority of seats to be 2+2.   Many cars will need more seats, once a couple of them are slightly reduced in capacity to take wheelchairs, prams, and bikes etc.

LO 378s are usually held up as an example of what to expect, as they are fully longitudinal (very tube like) but they only average about 34 seats per 20m car.   Fitting 16 extra seats into a 378 would be quite a challenge...

Paul

Looks like Paul's theory, which I've always subscribed to, will be just about right:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3326946/First-look-UK-s-Crossrail-trains-air-conditioned-Wi-Fi-enabled-room-1-500-passengers.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3326946/First-look-UK-s-Crossrail-trains-air-conditioned-Wi-Fi-enabled-room-1-500-passengers.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490)

Looks like a nice interior from these concept pictures, though I believe one or two toilets per 9-car train would not have been asking too much.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 06, 2015, 10:15:47 pm
Interesting article on the Acton Dive Under, which after several years is now nearing completion:

http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/12/06/a-look-at-crossrails-critical-acton-dive-under/ (http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/12/06/a-look-at-crossrails-critical-acton-dive-under/)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on February 19, 2016, 04:41:03 pm

If you are near Reading next Thursday (25th), you may be interested in this talk about the Crossrail trains. It repeats one given for IMechE in Bath in November. This time it is run jointly with the IET, in UoR Whiteknights campus, at 7 p.m. It's being used as a recruiting opportunity for the IET, so beware if you arrive early for the tea - or try to look old.

There is a poster, downloadable from this page (https://communities.theiet.org/communities/files/349/10334), but it's only a prettier way of saying this:
Quote
CLASS 345 ^ THE NEW TRAINS FOR CROSSRAIL

Mark Ellis, Bombardier and Phil Hinde, Crossrail

The Crossrail project demonstrates that railway engineering is an innovative and growing area of activity that can provide excellent long-term prospects for varied and technically demanding careers. Here ^14.8Bn of infrastructure investment in tunnelling, new stations, electrification, and automated control systems is being topped up with 65 new 200 metre-long trains based at a state of the art maintenance depot with a lifetime vehicle maintenance contract utilising the latest in remote condition monitoring technology.

This talk focuses on Bombardier^s new Class 345 Trains which are to be introduced progressively, on routes crossing London between Reading and Heathrow in the West and Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the East, between 2017 and 2019.

This event is free of charge and open to all, with a lecture starting at 19:00. It will be preceded by informal careers advice with refreshments from 18:00, which will continue after the lecture. This event is jointly organised by IET local group EC3 and the IMechE Railway Division, South West Centre.

Thursday 25 February 2016 19.00

Palmer Building, University of Reading RG6 6UR

For directions please visit http://www.reading.ac.uk/about/find/about-findindex.aspx

Unusually for these days, no registration is asked for. However, I would ask anyone who is coming as a result of this post to let me know, please. (It's a local event for me, though I am not involved in organising it.)

PS: Sorry for the short notice - not getting round to doing things is one of the few talents I have developed further since retiring.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: FremlinsMan on February 19, 2016, 08:21:09 pm
I doubt that anyone who isn't a member of the IET will get any hassle or recruitment spiel - unless you know better...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 19, 2016, 11:02:05 pm
Meanwhile at Paddington, eagle-eyed passengers will spot that work on the platform 12/13 combination has started, with the revised line of the track and platform edge marked out in spray paint along platform 13 where it will deviate from the current formation.  Also, according to a poster on the platform the extension of platform 14 will be completed by May this year - though I'm not sure to what length.  It has now had the knitting strung above it as well.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on February 19, 2016, 11:58:09 pm
Is there any scope to extend P14 'inwards' a bit alongside the LU tracks?

AIUI the original setup had four through platforms for the Met; so there might have been more space than is used nowadays, but currently out of sight?

IIRC there was a version of the enhancements plan a while back that gave a much longer finished P14 length and we couldn't see how it could be done by a simple extension to the west.

Paul



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on February 20, 2016, 08:00:10 am

If you are near Reading next Thursday (25th), you may be interested in this talk about the Crossrail trains. It repeats one given for IMechE in Bath in November. This time it is run jointly with the IET, in UoR Whiteknights campus, at 7 p.m. It's being used as a recruiting opportunity for the IET, so beware if you arrive early for the tea - or try to look old.

There is a poster, downloadable from this page (https://communities.theiet.org/communities/files/349/10334), but it's only a prettier way of saying this:
Quote
CLASS 345 ^ THE NEW TRAINS FOR CROSSRAIL

Mark Ellis, Bombardier and Phil Hinde, Crossrail

The Crossrail project demonstrates that railway engineering is an innovative and growing area of activity that can provide excellent long-term prospects for varied and technically demanding careers. Here ^14.8Bn of infrastructure investment in tunnelling, new stations, electrification, and automated control systems is being topped up with 65 new 200 metre-long trains based at a state of the art maintenance depot with a lifetime vehicle maintenance contract utilising the latest in remote condition monitoring technology.

This talk focuses on Bombardier^s new Class 345 Trains which are to be introduced progressively, on routes crossing London between Reading and Heathrow in the West and Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the East, between 2017 and 2019.

This event is free of charge and open to all, with a lecture starting at 19:00. It will be preceded by informal careers advice with refreshments from 18:00, which will continue after the lecture. This event is jointly organised by IET local group EC3 and the IMechE Railway Division, South West Centre.

Thursday 25 February 2016 19.00

Palmer Building, University of Reading RG6 6UR

For directions please visit http://www.reading.ac.uk/about/find/about-findindex.aspx

Unusually for these days, no registration is asked for. However, I would ask anyone who is coming as a result of this post to let me know, please. (It's a local event for me, though I am not involved in organising it.)

PS: Sorry for the short notice - not getting round to doing things is one of the few talents I have developed further since retiring.

I might be there, no good me looking old cause I am (ish) also already MIET  ;D

Is there any scope to extend P14 'inwards' a bit alongside the LU tracks?

AIUI the original setup had four through platforms for the Met; so there might have been more space than is used nowadays, but currently out of sight?

IIRC there was a version of the enhancements plan a while back that gave a much longer finished P14 length and we couldn't see how it could be done by a simple extension to the west.

Paul



It has been extended as far as it realistically can, although the platform edge coping slabs have yet to be fitted.

The OLE has been declared "LIVE" although it has a permanent earth fitted just under BBR Bridge this makes issuing isolation documents quicker for the team working on the canopy   


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on February 28, 2016, 04:47:47 pm
I noted down some details of the class 345 trains from Thursday's presentation, which may not be new but most are not on Wikipedia (yet). These are mainly "as built", and may replace previous "as designed" limit values.

  • The track has a gradient of 1 in 27 in three places, and is (by main-line standards) very wiggly.
  • The driver's display to support DOO is always a TV in the cab, with a wireless link from platform cameras, as on LU.
  • There were gauging issues, of which the platform heights were worst - high on GE, lower and variable on GW.
  • Carriage length is 22.5 m (nominal), so a 9-car is 202.5 m long and new infrastructure and the design-for maximum stretch 11-car is 247.5. (Design limits were 205 and 250 m).
  • Each train has two independently-powered ends and a trailer in the middle, so it will run with both pantographs up.
  • There are 5 powered bogies (both axles in each) in a 4-car "half". One car with one powered bogie will be left out of each "half" in the interim 7-car units delivered next year for use on the ex-GE TfL-rail service.
  • Acceleration is to be 1 m/s/s and deceleration 0.9 m/s/s - in the leafless dry indoors, anyway.
  • Mass is 320 t, or "the same as a class 315 per metre".
  • The units ordered for Overground (class 710?) are derived from this design (Aventra), but with shorter carriages at 20 m nominal.

There was a Bombardier presentation about their wonderful new train inspection systems (AVIS), which runs each trisn entering the depot past a battery of cameras (visible and IR), laser scanners, etc. Trains also have some NDT monitors in board (e.g. acoustic). While the idea is to reduce human routine inspections, these are still required for lots of things, though the trains designers are being leaned on to get rid of these in the future.

Further points arose in questions afterwards:

They seem to have had a fixation with minimising clutter, so while straps have to be kept there are no overhead lockers or racks. To be fair, I think this is about speed and the fact that on short central journeys people keep hold of their light luggage and near to wheeled stuff on the floor. Hence space for big things is in the "stand-back" by the doors or under the cantilevered side-on seats (though people may take a while to realise it's there).

Extending to 11-car is not a simple option; the power design hasn't been done to allow for it. At least one extra power bogie per "half" is needed (that gradient again), and presumably some uprating of other components to feed it. (But this was an off-the-cuff reply and may not be Bombardier's last word on the subject).

E&OE - as notes taken during a live presentation, I may have missed or misrecorded something.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on February 28, 2016, 06:28:20 pm
There was a Bombardier presentation about their wonderful new train inspection systems (AVIS), which runs each trisn entering the depot past a battery of cameras (visible and IR), laser scanners, etc.

Just to give its full name AVIS = Automatic Vehicle Inspection System

There will be two of these 'sheds' in the new Old Oak Common Crossrail Depot.  Trains will be 'inspected' at a speed of 3mph.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 28, 2016, 08:44:39 pm
Just to give its full name AVIS = Automatic Vehicle Inspection System

Thanks for your definition and details - I've now added it to the Coffee Shop forum 'acronyms / abbreviations (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html)' page.  ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on February 29, 2016, 09:23:15 pm
There was a Bombardier presentation about their wonderful new train inspection systems (AVIS), which runs each trisn entering the depot past a battery of cameras (visible and IR), laser scanners, etc.

Just to give its full name AVIS = Automatic Vehicle Inspection System

There will be two of these 'sheds' in the new Old Oak Common Crossrail Depot.  Trains will be 'inspected' at a speed of 3mph.

All the train manufactures have a similar system, Hitachi at Ashford and North Pole and Siemens at Three Bridges.

The presentation was okay, could have done with a little more tech info on the trains, the traction pack, hotel services etc


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 29, 2016, 09:37:48 pm
The presentation was okay, could have done with a little more tech info on the trains, the traction pack, hotel services etc

While I really do understand your thirst for such technical detail, Electric train, I rather fear that if I as an ordinary passenger was given so much information, my head would possibly explode.  ::) :o ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on February 29, 2016, 11:54:39 pm
Ditto. I see hotel services and I think; restaurant, gym, room service, swimming pool, luggage porter, sauna, shoe shine, concierge...

Some more practical than others on your average train.  :P ;) ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 01, 2016, 12:06:08 am
... mini bar, maxi bar, too much breakfast, trouser press ...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 01, 2016, 09:59:12 am
Ditto. I see hotel services and I think; restaurant, gym, room service, swimming pool, luggage porter, sauna, shoe shine, concierge...

Some more practical than others on your average train.  :P ;) ;D

Well, the motion of the train would be good for a swimming pool, creating a wave function, but not so good for the shoe shining.  :D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 01, 2016, 10:36:44 am
Ditto. I see hotel services and I think; restaurant, gym, room service, swimming pool, luggage porter, sauna, shoe shine, concierge...

Some more practical than others on your average train.  :P ;) ;D

Well, the motion of the train would be good for a swimming pool, creating a wave function, but not so good for the shoe shining.  :D

Obviously you lot go to a different sort of hotel from like what I do.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on March 02, 2016, 05:07:39 pm
The presentation was okay, could have done with a little more tech info on the trains, the traction pack, hotel services etc

While I really do understand your thirst for such technical detail, Electric train, I rather fear that if I as an ordinary passenger was given so much information, my head would possibly explode.  ::) :o ;D

Whilst it is entertaining to see ordinary passengers head explode it is rather messy ................... hence the need for hotel services in this case maid service :) 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on March 02, 2016, 06:30:56 pm

The presentation was okay, could have done with a little more tech info on the trains, the traction pack, hotel services etc

I think I agree with ET on this - it was after all a lecture to at least some prospective railway employees and must have included engineering students etc.  So enough info to get them thinking about (and hopefully impressed by) what is presumably a state of the art traction system from overhead wire to wheel/rail interface would have been good.   


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 03, 2016, 03:12:52 pm
I was also at the presentation at Reading University last week - it's taken some time but now I've got some time to add a couple of further details to Stuving's comprehensive notes.

^ Crossrail expect to carry 200 million passengers in the first year, with 36,000 passengers per hour in the peak.
^ One of the serious operational issues is marrying 'mainline' operating practice - where trains are traditionally timed to the half minutes - with the accuracy demanded in the central core with 24tph running under ATO timed to the second.
^ To minimise rail and wheel wear as the tunnels twist and turn on their way under London and to allow for variations in the trains' speed, the track alignment is being very carefully calculated and installed.
^ Lubrication of the wheel flange/tyre corner is being fitted. The two application methods were 'stick' (of lubricant) or 'spray'. The second was chosen as it can be controlled, the 'stick' being in permanent contact with the wheel.
^ To minimise noise and vibration the wheel tyres and rail surfaces will be as smooth as possible.
^ Half the fleet will be stabled at Old Oak each night.
^ The AVIS is based on the system in use at Central Rivers since December 2014 for measurement of safety-critical items, e.g., brake pad thicknesses. Pads are now changed when individually needed (the implication being rather than changing all the pads on a train at once) which has reduced use of materials.
^ The Crossrail bogies have been (at least partially) designed so that more items, e.g., bolt heads, can be easily seen by the AVIS system so reducing the amount of manual inspection still needed.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 03, 2016, 03:51:43 pm
Thanks stuving and 4064RA.

Someone has thought a lot of this Crossrail stuff through. I like the AVIS idea, which I am sure is just a more sophisticated version of systems already in use. All of which began with the wheeltappers.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on March 06, 2016, 03:09:02 pm
I am informed that Boris Johnson alleged on Andrew Mar's programme today that Cross Rail was delayed for months trying to fend off the EU argument that the Crossrail tunnel must be able to take German Trains. 

Anyone know what the truth is (if any) behind this?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oberon on March 06, 2016, 05:49:31 pm
Sounds like he's confusing Crossrail with HS1


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 06, 2016, 07:19:55 pm
Apologies for abbreviation overload...

AIUI, as brand new heavy rail infrastructure, the line should have conformed to UIC TSIs, and been designed for ERTMS and ETCS for signalling and control throughout from opening.   This is all about fitting a suitable ATP system for safety - and the headways intended in the core section (30 tph during perturbation) also require an operable ATO system.

As no suitable off the shelf signalling system was around, TfL wanted to treat Crossrail as a metro and thus exempt it from ERTMS and use the same (or similar) line signalling to that used on the underground, communication based train control (CBTC).  I think this was mainly on the basis that designing from scratch for ETRMS was a major risk to completion, as at that time ERTMS was considered an immature system.   

IIRC after much negotiation the core route will still use CBTC as TfL planned, and some parts of the route on existing infrastructure will open with TPWS/AWS with a migration path for the existing routes to ERTMS in due course as it is introduced on the major parts of those routes in accordance with Network Rail's existing strategy.

I think this is the background to what he is saying, it is nothing much to do with running 'German sized' trains, as there is an ongoing dispensation that allows for lines in GB to be built to normal GB structure gauge.

I found a Rail Engineer article about Crossrail signalling here:  http://www.railengineer.uk/2016/01/08/signalling-crossrail/

As a PS, does anyone know if interoperability is really being driven by the EU or is it the UIC as 'pushed' by the EU?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 06, 2016, 07:44:30 pm
TSIs are EU documents, coming from the commission*. They are based on technical material that is often from the UIC, and may well be written by the same people. For some reason they usually re-write those technical requirements in the TSI, rather than refer to other standards. This makes TSIs rather long, and also publishes material that the UIC doesn't.

I think the commission is the main force behind standardisation, which is seen as a single market issue (thus castigated as "Thatcherite" in much of Europe). One reason for it is to permit competition between operators across borders (not just of cross-border services), but creating a true market in equipment is also a motivation. One country's market is now seen as too small to support several suppliers.

A few years ago the idea was floated of introducing standards for urban rail as well, driven by the equipment market argument. It didn't get much support, though, and I think it was dropped.

*correction - that's now delegated to the European Railway Agency.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on March 06, 2016, 08:36:53 pm
I am informed that Boris Johnson alleged on Andrew Mar's programme today that Cross Rail was delayed for months trying to fend off the EU argument that the Crossrail tunnel must be able to take German Trains. 

Anyone know what the truth is (if any) behind this?

I am afraid BoJo is talking wifwaf.  Crossrail will be TSI compliant that is different to being built to be compliant to European Loading Gauge.

Crossrail was delay by decades not through fighting off Brussels it was the dilly dallying and general bungling ineptitude of our own home grown politicians, who seem to think that deciding not to make a decision is decision taking!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on March 06, 2016, 09:25:35 pm
We continue to grow such politicians here in Bristol.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 07, 2016, 12:09:51 am
I've been trying to remember what Boris did say. I was only half-listening to the programme, and Boris was not really making a lot of sense. The unscripted Boris can't really do coherent logical explanation, and Andy Marr wasn't helping. 

But I do remember him referring to HMG's over-strict interpretation of the relevant directives, so they had to apply main-line TSIs, and wasted a year arguing about it. I don't think he said clearly who won the argument, but he certainly did mention the requirement to allow German trains to use the line. I don't think he referred to their size - just as well, as I think a lot of German trains are still too big for the UIC gauge called up in the TSIs.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 07, 2016, 09:35:26 am
AFAICS Crossrail was always going to need a safe signalling system whatever type of system, and even with its original Maidenhead to Shenfield reach it would seem to have been reasonable to signal it throughout as a mainline railway to avoid having to engineer in two interfaces from NR to TfL.   (Abbey Wood being operationally separate.)

The ELL has fairly normal signalling doesn't it?   How come they didn't have to suffer from 'not invented here' syndrome?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 07, 2016, 11:24:06 am
More on TSIs:
I think the relevant one would be the Conventional Rail Infrastructure TSI (CR INF TSI), headed "DECISION of 26 April 2011 concerning a technical specification for interoperability relating to the ^infrastructure^ subsystem of the trans-European conventional rail system", or 2011/275/EU for short. This came into force in 2011, so an earlier version may have been in use at the time Crossrail was planned. If you want to find out more, the RSSB is a good place to start (http://author.rssb.co.uk/standards-and-the-rail-industry/technical-specifications-for-interoperability).

This TSI does, despite what I said, call up structure gauges by reference. These are UIC gauges GA, GB, and GC for four different classes of line (IV, V, VI, and VII), though they are called up as EN 15273-3:2009 Annex C.

This directive is marked "Text with EEA relevance" - so it applies in Norway, Iceland (where its relevance is somewhat limited), and Liechenstein (which is, oddly, in the EEA rather than linked to Switzerland), and Croatia (pendingly). Thus it would still be in force here post-Brexit under the "EEA option", and perhaps under some "EEA with differences" options.

The Swiss do not appear to have signed up to this directive, under their pick-and-choose arrangement. Of course the Swiss have been exchanging trains with the whole of Europe for ages, under technical agreements made on a case-by-case basis. They have simply added the TSIs to the list of other peoples' standards to be used for this.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Noggin on March 07, 2016, 12:04:20 pm
Apologies for abbreviation overload...

AIUI, as brand new heavy rail infrastructure, the line should have conformed to UIC TSIs, and been designed for ERTMS and ETCS for signalling and control throughout from opening.   This is all about fitting a suitable ATP system for safety - and the headways intended in the core section (30 tph during perturbation) also require an operable ATO system.

As no suitable off the shelf signalling system was around, TfL wanted to treat Crossrail as a metro and thus exempt it from ERTMS and use the same (or similar) line signalling to that used on the underground, communication based train control (CBTC).  I think this was mainly on the basis that designing from scratch for ETRMS was a major risk to completion, as at that time ERTMS was considered an immature system.   

IIRC after much negotiation the core route will still use CBTC as TfL planned, and some parts of the route on existing infrastructure will open with TPWS/AWS with a migration path for the existing routes to ERTMS in due course as it is introduced on the major parts of those routes in accordance with Network Rail's existing strategy.

I think this is the background to what he is saying, it is nothing much to do with running 'German sized' trains, as there is an ongoing dispensation that allows for lines in GB to be built to normal GB structure gauge.

I found a Rail Engineer article about Crossrail signalling here:  http://www.railengineer.uk/2016/01/08/signalling-crossrail/

As a PS, does anyone know if interoperability is really being driven by the EU or is it the UIC as 'pushed' by the EU?

Paul

Sounds about right to me.

I'm sure that there was probably a debate as to whether the line should be sized to enable Euro-dd stock to run through it, but of course the cost of that would have been phenomenal, and as most of us know, the added station dwell times for DD stock can negate the capacity increases. I keep waiting for some think-tank to suggest that we should build HS2 to Chinese/Japanese standards (much wider) rather than Euro standards. Lets hope no-one does. 

BoJo could also have been confusing the hoo-haa about the Thameslink trains being manufactured in Germany, an issue that was only really resolved when Siemens dropped out of the tender for the Crossrail units, effectively gifting it to Bombardier. Hardly the fault of the EU though, German company produces a technically superior product to a Canadian (albeit UK-manufacturing) one. HM Government could have quietly had a word in Siemens ear and suggested that they might like to bolt some trains together in the UK and all would have been good, but anyway...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 07, 2016, 12:31:45 pm
...
I'm sure that there was probably a debate as to whether the line should be sized to enable Euro-dd stock to run through it, but of course the cost of that would have been phenomenal, and as most of us know, the added station dwell times for DD stock can negate the capacity increases.
...

Well, actually, it appears the gauge was chosen before the Crossrail bill (2005) and approved when it became an act (2008), both before the relevant TSI came in. DfT sent TfL a formal lette (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/237109/crossrail-central-section.pdf)r giving them this derogation only in 2012, and that's on the grounds of its advanced state of planning in 2011. That applies for the whole railway, not just the tunnel, though that's the only bit of genuinely new infrastructure.

That derogation was issued under 2008/57, but refers to 2011/275/EU, but both are predated by the Crossrail design. Just how unhelpful DfT was it's hard to know - they are easy to blame, whatever the truth.

However, in the reply to this FoI request (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/making_crossrail_future_proof), it says they looked at gauging retrospectively and concluded the tunnels are big enough to be refitted to GB gauge (close to what the French use):
Quote
That said, the Department has evaluated the opportunities for passing double deck trains through the tunnel as designed and has concluded that the continental ^GB^ gauge trains would physically fit in through the tunnels as designed, albeit with the need for alterations to the overhead power supply and platforms. The areas around the tunnel wall that could affect the introduction of double deck train would also need to be kept clear of significant cables and signals so as to facilitate future conversion. This ^GB^ gauge is similar to the profile of the double deck trains used on the RER in Paris. The platforms and overhead power supplies will need to be designed for the normal main line trains initially and then if capacity becomes an issue in the future, there would need to be a project for remaining conversion works to accept higher capacity trains. Accordingly you can see that we have taken a pragmatic approach to ensuring that the tunnel is future proofed for the potential introduction of double deck trains without unduly adding cost or complication at this stage.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on March 07, 2016, 04:39:45 pm
I've been trying to remember what Boris did say. I was only half-listening to the programme, and Boris was not really making a lot of sense. The unscripted Boris can't really do coherent logical explanation
Even scripted he struggles to be coherent

and, Andy Marr wasn't helping. 
Not a lot of help you can offer an incoherent BoJo in full flight  ;D

...
I'm sure that there was probably a debate as to whether the line should be sized to enable Euro-dd stock to run through it, but of course the cost of that would have been phenomenal, and as most of us know, the added station dwell times for DD stock can negate the capacity increases.
...

Well, actually, it appears the gauge was chosen before the Crossrail bill (2005) and approved when it became an act (2008), both before the relevant TSI came in. DfT sent TfL a formal lette (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/237109/crossrail-central-section.pdf)r giving them this derogation only in 2012, and that's on the grounds of its advanced state of planning in 2011. That applies for the whole railway, not just the tunnel, though that's the only bit of genuinely new infrastructure.

That derogation was issued under 2008/57, but refers to 2011/275/EU, but both are predated by the Crossrail design. Just how unhelpful DfT was it's hard to know - they are easy to blame, whatever the truth.

However, in the reply to this FoI request (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/making_crossrail_future_proof), it says they looked at gauging retrospectively and concluded the tunnels are big enough to be refitted to GB gauge (close to what the French use):
Quote
That said, the Department has evaluated the opportunities for passing double deck trains through the tunnel as designed and has concluded that the continental “GB” gauge trains would physically fit in through the tunnels as designed, albeit with the need for alterations to the overhead power supply and platforms. The areas around the tunnel wall that could affect the introduction of double deck train would also need to be kept clear of significant cables and signals so as to facilitate future conversion. This “GB” gauge is similar to the profile of the double deck trains used on the RER in Paris. The platforms and overhead power supplies will need to be designed for the normal main line trains initially and then if capacity becomes an issue in the future, there would need to be a project for remaining conversion works to accept higher capacity trains. Accordingly you can see that we have taken a pragmatic approach to ensuring that the tunnel is future proofed for the potential introduction of double deck trains without unduly adding cost or complication at this stage.


My understanding is that Airport Junction to Maidenhead is being electrified to TSI compliance this is because it falls into the "substantially upgrading" and the GWML is listed as one of Europe High Speed lines.  The Paddington to Airport Junction is being brought as best as can be done to comply, as this is existing electrification.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 07, 2016, 04:46:38 pm
My understanding is that Airport Junction to Maidenhead is being electrified to TSI compliance this is because it falls into the "substantially upgrading" and the GWML is listed as one of Europe High Speed lines.  The Paddington to Airport Junction is being brought as best as can be done to comply, as this is existing electrification.

Electrified to TSI standards, but there's no prospect of the GWML out to Reading (or the GEML to Shenfield) being retrospectively gauge cleared to TSI standards.  AIUI the Heathrow branch defines the structure gauge, and that FOI asking about double deck trains in the tunnels was therefore fairly pointless.

The Crossrail trains will have 3 sets of doors per side on 9 x 22.5m vehicles, upgradeable to 11 car trains within the 250m station tunnels.  I suggest that planned dwell times would be impossible with double decker trains running at 24 tph; and there'd certainly not be a pro-rata increase in capacity over the planned trains.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on March 07, 2016, 09:37:46 pm
My understanding is that Airport Junction to Maidenhead is being electrified to TSI compliance this is because it falls into the "substantially upgrading" and the GWML is listed as one of Europe High Speed lines.  The Paddington to Airport Junction is being brought as best as can be done to comply, as this is existing electrification.

Electrified to TSI standards, but there's no prospect of the GWML out to Reading (or the GEML to Shenfield) being retrospectively gauge cleared to TSI standards.  AIUI the Heathrow branch defines the structure gauge, and that FOI asking about double deck trains in the tunnels was therefore fairly pointless.

The Crossrail trains will have 3 sets of doors per side on 9 x 22.5m vehicles, upgradeable to 11 car trains within the 250m station tunnels.  I suggest that planned dwell times would be impossible with double decker trains running at 24 tph; and there'd certainly not be a pro-rata increase in capacity over the planned trains.

Paul

The TSI compatibility is not solely about gauge, the OLE compatibility is electrical safety and passing clearance also the type of Pans, the 387's and 700's on Thameslink have a TSI compliant Pan which are causing a number of issues because the Thameslink route is to an old BR standard.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 07, 2016, 11:49:32 pm
Electrified to TSI standards, but there's no prospect of the GWML out to Reading (or the GEML to Shenfield) being retrospectively gauge cleared to TSI standards. 

The TSI compatibility is not solely about gauge, the OLE compatibility is electrical safety and passing clearance also the type of Pans, the 387's and 700's on Thameslink have a TSI compliant Pan which are causing a number of issues because the Thameslink route is to an old BR standard.
I was agreeing, that's why I wrote 'electrified to TSI standards, but' at the start of my earlier post?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 08, 2016, 11:02:31 am
The TSI compatibility is not solely about gauge, the OLE compatibility is electrical safety and passing clearance also the type of Pans, the 387's and 700's on Thameslink have a TSI compliant Pan which are causing a number of issues because the Thameslink route is to an old BR standard.

It's not even the same TSI - there's a Conventional Rail Energy TSI (Decision 2011/274/EU as amended), and a high-speed one (Decision 2008/284/EC as amended) too. High-speed is generally from 200km/hr up, so the 125 mi/hr lines do come under it. These TSIs have all the stuff about OLE and pantographs, and a big list of exceptions for each country - this isn't a case of GB versus the continent, there is a lot more variation than that.

I guess that the two (OLE and pan) need to be built to suit each other, so if a country has any European interoperable lines it will eventually have to move to standard OLE and trains everywhere, or else split its network into two bits not interoperable with each other. So it's not just red tape (not a good conductor anyway), but may still be overly prescriptive.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on March 09, 2016, 08:39:08 pm
I guess that the two (OLE and pan) need to be built to suit each other, so if a country has any European interoperable lines it will eventually have to move to standard OLE and trains everywhere, or else split its network into two bits not interoperable with each other. So it's not just red tape (not a good conductor anyway), but may still be overly prescriptive.

Or you fit multiple Pans to suit the particular OLE. As per the DB ICEs with German and Swiss pans, the many 4 voltage locos like the TRAXX which have multiple pans.

AIUI it's not so much the PANS that restricts cross border interoperability but fitting all the relevant  signalling system receivers and black boxes.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Noggin on March 09, 2016, 11:33:06 pm
I guess that the two (OLE and pan) need to be built to suit each other, so if a country has any European interoperable lines it will eventually have to move to standard OLE and trains everywhere, or else split its network into two bits not interoperable with each other. So it's not just red tape (not a good conductor anyway), but may still be overly prescriptive.

Or you fit multiple Pans to suit the particular OLE. As per the DB ICEs with German and Swiss pans, the many 4 voltage locos like the TRAXX which have multiple pans.

AIUI it's not so much the PANS that restricts cross border interoperability but fitting all the relevant  signalling system receivers and black boxes.

With OLE you obviously have voltage differences (which don't really affect the pan), but you also have differences in the lateral spread of the conductor wire, the vertical variation and the tension that the wire is under. So even though the French quad-voltage CC40100 class had 4 pantographs, it would use different pantographs under the French and Dutch 1500v DC networks. (Incidentally, the CC40100 class was built in the 1970s to a reduced loading gauge to allow for operations through the iteration of the Channel Tunnel under construction at the time).

AFAIK, these differences are generally being ironed out and the TSI's formalise that process. This is partially about enabling cross-border running, but also about the single market, so manufacturers can produce 'run anywhere' kit and individual countries can't implement protectionist rules to restrict their markets to domestic manufacturers and operators etc. Bust as per the comments above, there are loads of derogations, as there's obviously little point in rewiring old branch lines for the sake of meeting modern regs.

In the UK, the differences aren't so dramatic as to require separate pans for old and new systems, but the newer kit is much stiffer and with a more precise geometry, so newer trains can run faster and with more pans up on equipment that is able to cope. (Multiple pantographs can cause waves to form in OLE that can ultimately lead to dewirements).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 09, 2016, 11:50:44 pm
Presumably, the ultimate decider for a pan-European gauge will be the big tunnels - channel, alpine, etc.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on March 10, 2016, 08:15:43 pm
I guess that the two (OLE and pan) need to be built to suit each other, so if a country has any European interoperable lines it will eventually have to move to standard OLE and trains everywhere, or else split its network into two bits not interoperable with each other. So it's not just red tape (not a good conductor anyway), but may still be overly prescriptive.

Or you fit multiple Pans to suit the particular OLE. As per the DB ICEs with German and Swiss pans, the many 4 voltage locos like the TRAXX which have multiple pans.

AIUI it's not so much the PANS that restricts cross border interoperability but fitting all the relevant  signalling system receivers and black boxes.

Ah but the TSI does not have much to do about voltage, interoperability is about standard specifications for systems to interface with, for example a manufacture of 1500V DC pans would expect all 1500V dc OLE to be to the same clearance, height, wire tension, hardness  and CSA of wire etc  like wise for a 25kV pan manufacture the two pans may be different electrically and mechanically however a manufacture could and do make them do both; like wise the infrastructure manufactures also know what spec they are working too and so do the infrastructure managers.

TSI are about safety and about open market / free trade


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 06, 2016, 10:49:14 pm
Another fascinating article about Crossrail from the ianvisits blog.  This time concerning the special measures put in place in the tunnels to deal with areas such as under the Barbican which are sensitive to noise and vibration:

http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2016/04/06/photos-from-inside-crossrails-tunnels/


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on April 09, 2016, 08:58:56 pm
The (American) Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers publishes a monthly journal (IEEE Spectrum) for its members - my April edition arrived last week and I was astonished to find a long article in it about the construction of Crossrail.

The article obviously concentrates on the IT and communications aspects and there are some fascinating tit-bits. One is that cheap optical fibres have been embedded in the sprayed concrete tunnel linings to monitor strain in the walls. Obviously one aspect is to be able to continuously monitor the health of the walls but also to see if the linings have been over-designed and could be thinner in future construction so reducing costs.

The entire project has been designed on computers so all the design data is instantly available - not only tunnels and buildings but all the services down to, as the article says, "1 watt lighting fittings". Every asset has an x, a y and a z coordinate. A 3-D post construction survey has been made using scanning lasers so the differences in the 'as-designed' and 'as-built' states of the tunnels are known and incorporated into the database.

This has enabled the use of an 'augmented reality' interface. Not only can a section of, say, a station and all its services be shown on a computer screen but these data can be presented on a tablet computer, that is an iPad. Using a combination of GPS and, where appropriate Bluetooth location beacons, an iPad can be held up to a wall and superimposed on the camera's image of the wall are the positions of all the services behind the cladding or behind the concrete. It should make the problem of drilling a new hole through a bunch of cables or a water main a thing of the past! Essentially the maintenance manual is an iPad.

All very different from finding buried signalling cables...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on April 10, 2016, 10:13:02 pm
Whilst this will one day look "old hat", it is difficult to imagine exactly how. That is a very good example of using state of the art technology to do something useful, relatively cheaply, that would simply not be economical to do using traditional surveying methods. Very interesting indeed!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on April 11, 2016, 06:51:30 pm
Whilst this will one day look "old hat", it is difficult to imagine exactly how. That is a very good example of using state of the art technology to do something useful, relatively cheaply, that would simply not be economical to do using traditional surveying methods. Very interesting indeed!

Because the access into the tunnels to do this type of detailed surveying will been very limited, in some locations it could almost be regarded as intrusive if they have to remove cladding to carry out the survey.  Also the use of this type of technology means it is being constantly monitored and not just checked very now and then, it is cheap to install now compared to physically doing the survey in the future and it also removes humans potentially having to work at height to do some of the surveying.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Noggin on April 11, 2016, 08:58:22 pm
Apologies if posted previously, but the MD of MTR Crossrail made a presentation to London Travelwatch a few weeks ago. Not a lot that's new but there are some interesting comparative performance numbers towards the end. If I've understood rightly MTR have massively improved on Abellio's performance, even with the same 315's.

www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/documents/get_lob?id=4175&age=&field=file


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 14, 2016, 11:19:52 am
From the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/12/crossrail-interchanges-not-good-enough-lord-adonis):

Quote
Crossrail interchanges are too long, says Lord Adonis

Passengers face long walks between trains, with poor links to tube network likely to offset faster journey times, says infrastructure chief

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/98b7fa72fc5d2f6bb830002866dac87c0a13c6de/0_366_3600_2161/master/3600.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=034c5508ab51af655e8cffea064a86d5)
The infrastructure commission chairman, Andrew Adonis, right, with Crossrail^s Andrew Wolstenholme at Tottenham Court Road. Photograph: Yui Mok/PA

Commuters in the south-east of England have been promised a faster, easier journey on the ^14.8bn Crossrail line, but may find their progress slowed considerably by a lengthy walk to connect to London Underground services.

Crossrail, to be named the Elizabeth line in honour of the Queen, is expected to speed up journeys and increase capacity between Reading, Heathrow, central London and Shenfield in Essex when fully operational.

However, commuters needing to change from Crossrail on to the tube or other services could find time savings eroded by the distances they need to cover within stations, according to Andrew Adonis, the chairman of the national infrastructure commission.

^The interchanges are not great. There are going to be a lot of passengers walking a long way to change between trains ^ and they are very long trains,^ Lord Adonis said of Crossrail, speaking at an infrastructure conference in London.

The former transport secretary, who held office in the last Labour government when Crossrail was officially announced in 2009, said: ^I tried as a minister at the last minute to unpick this, but it was too late.^

Adonis compared the Crossrail interchanges unfavourably with other additions to the London transport network, especially the Victoria line, which was constructed in the 1960s and has cross-platform connections with the Northern and Bakerloo lines at Euston and Oxford Circus. ^Those save passengers five to 10 minutes every day,^ he said. ^Not enough people pay enough attention to interchanges.^

He declined to say where he believed the biggest problems were, although Adonis did intervene in the plans for the Bond Street hub in central London, originally designed as a separate Crossrail station from the existing Underground station, which serves the Central and Jubilee lines.

On direct journeys, the high-capacity Crossrail line, due to open in phases between 2017 and 2019, will bring passengers to central London from outer western and eastern suburbs substantially faster than the tube. Crossrail trains will be more than 200m long, roughly double the length of trains on the Northern and Piccadilly lines, with a capacity of 1,500 passengers.

Howard Smith, Transport for London^s operations director for Crossrail, said: ^The Elizabeth line will greatly increase the capacity of central London^s transport network, supporting regeneration and cutting journey times across the city. We are investing millions of pounds upgrading existing stations along the route, including at Paddington, Liverpool Street and Tottenham Court Road, to make it as easy as possible for our customers to interchange with our existing services.^

Senior sources at TfL acknowledged that Crossrail interchanges were not ideal, but said constraints such as sewers and existing lines had limited the construction of tunnels, and that alternatives would have been more expensive. The final budget, which was partially financed through local business rates, was subject to intense scrutiny before approval and reduced to ^14.8bn in 2010.

The interchanges for the planned Crossrail 2 should be more successful, with Adonis having championed the next cross-London line as a scheme of national importance since being appointed head of the infrastructure commission last year. The chancellor, George Osborne, has approved development funding to speed up plans for the north-south route across the capital, with a view to it opening in 2033.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: didcotdean on April 14, 2016, 11:53:39 am
The Victoria Line may have been able to have a few cross-platform exchanges but also has some very cramped stations and interchanges, possibly because it was built in a time of flat to declining passenger usage. Victoria station itself had dreadful interchange provision which is only now being addressed. Also little consideration was given to accessibility with the need to negotiate a number of stairs at many stations with no alternative being commonplace.

Since Crossrail and tube standards are so different I'm not sure that adjacent-platform interchanges would work as well anyway.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 17, 2016, 04:40:37 pm
I presume that even with adjacent platforms, there would be barriers to go through.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on April 17, 2016, 04:56:55 pm
why?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Noggin on April 18, 2016, 10:49:13 am
I can see Adonis' point, but the devil, as always is in the details with these things.

Sure, the Victoria line works very effectively at Oxford Street where you have a cross-tunnel connection to the Bakerloo, but Crossrail's trains are not the same, they are much longer and carry more people.

I suspect that even if you could physically put the tube and Crossrail platforms in close proximity, and there were no ticket barriers or other demarcations required, behavioural modelling would still suggest that you need a certain distance between Crossrail and tube platforms in order to allow a dispersal of passengers and avoid overwhelming tube platforms at peak times.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on April 18, 2016, 12:22:49 pm
The much touted example of Oxford Circus is only cross-platform between Victoria and Bakerloo, it doesn't apply to the Central.  I'm sure there's a complex proof of this, but you cannot ever provide cross platform interchange between more than two lines.   ;D  IIRC they got lucky at Oxford St, because the Bakerloo platforms just happened to be outside the two running tunnels, but it isn't always like that.

At some stations such as Euston and Highbury & Islington,  cross platform interchange was achieved by building a parallel two platform station and then 'swapping lines over' so that one of the new Victoria lines ran through an existing platform and one of the existing lines ran through a new platform built by the Victoria line project.  Altering a tube platform to Crossrail length and gauge would have to result in an existing line being closed for a number of years.

Then there's simple alignment issues.   Crossrail 1 runs E/W and interfaces mostly with lines running N/S, and even if any of them were stations on only one line the new route would need sweeping curves.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on April 18, 2016, 01:58:17 pm
Seeing the building work at Tottenham Court Road recently, it looks like interchange between Northern, Central and Crossrail will be achieved in the circulating areas inside gatelines.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 20, 2016, 08:50:54 pm
From getreading:

Quote
A residents^ association in Caversham will be focusing on Crossrail at its annual meeting next week.

Caversham and District Residents^ Association (CADRA) will hear a talk from John Goldsmith on the rail project on Tuesday, April 26 at 7.30pm.

Mr Goldsmith, community relations manager for Crossrail, will share images of the construction work, discuss the benefits of the project and explain how the service will operate from Reading Station from December 2019.

Everyone is welcome to attend the annual meeting at Thameside School in Harley Road, Caversham, and can join CADRA on the day for ^3.



And from the official CADRA site:

(http://www.cadra.org.uk/images/AGM-April-2016.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 15, 2016, 01:39:00 am
From Rail Technology Magazine (http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/rail-news/unique-designs-for-new-crossrail-stations-released):

Quote
Unique designs for new Crossrail stations released

New images of the remodelled stations along the Elizabeth Line, as Crossrail will be named, have been released to the public.

(http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/write/MediaUploads/03_tottenham_court_road_station_-_architect_s_impression_of_station_entrance_at_dean_street_236015.jpg)
Tottenham Court Road station entrance at Dean Street

The images, which are also featured in a free exhibition at the Royal Institute of British Architects, provide a new glimpse of the Elizabeth Line, which is now approximately 75% complete and is due to open in 2018.

It will feature 10 new stations and upgrades to 30 stations. The stations will be equipped with 250m platforms to accommodate longer trains.

(http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/write/MediaUploads/04_farringdon_station_-_proposed_platform_236035.jpg)
Farringdon station - proposed platform

Julian Robinson, head of architecture at Crossrail Limited, said: ^The Crossrail project has worked with world-leading architects and designers to deliver a new railway that draws upon the fantastic transport architectural heritage of London and London Underground with each station reflecting the distinct character of the surrounding area and presenting a common line identity.^

Each new station^s underground parts will remain consistent with the rest of the Transport for London network, while the entrances are designed by different architects to reflect the character and history of the local area.

For example, the new Elizabeth Line station at Paddington will echo the design legacy of Brunel^s existing terminus building, while the new Farringdon station is inspired by the Barbican and the historic local trades of blacksmiths and goldsmiths.

(http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/write/MediaUploads/01_paddington_station_-_proposed_ticket_hall_235985.jpg)
Paddington station - proposed ticket hall

The designs are based on principles of identity, clarity, consistency, inclusivity, sustainability, security and people focus.

As part of the privately-funded Culture Line scheme, permanent works of art will also be installed in many of the central London stations.

Spencher Finch^s ^A Cloud Index^ will be embedded into Paddington Station^s glass canopy, while Turner Prize winning artists Douglas Gordon and Richard Wright will produce artworks at Tottenham Court Road, and Michal Rovner will produce a digital installation for Canary Wharf station.

The new edition of RTM features all the latest updates on Crossrail from Howard Smith, Crossrail operations director at Transport for London.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 15, 2016, 09:14:05 am
"Inspired by the Barbican"
Plain concrete surfaces everywhere then


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 15, 2016, 10:23:16 am
"Inspired by the Barbican"
Plain concrete surfaces everywhere then

I am frequently inspired by The REAL Barbican, but then again I am from God's chosen town, the Capital City of the South West, Plymouth  :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Western Pathfinder on May 15, 2016, 11:15:20 am
Could have been worse might look like the Tricorn in Portsmouth .


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 15, 2016, 05:18:19 pm
I am frequently inspired by The REAL Barbican, but then again I am from God's chosen town, the Capital City of the South West, Plymouth  :)

Likewise.  The Barbican there offers the world the Jacka Bakery and Plymouth Gin, among other inspirations.  ;) :D ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 16, 2016, 09:44:54 am
The images do at least have people in.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 20, 2016, 11:54:00 am
Details of the rebuilding of Acton Main Line station.  Perhaps it should now be renamed Acton Elizabeth Line?   ;)

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/green-light-for-major-improvements-at-acton-main-line-station


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on May 20, 2016, 03:02:24 pm
Likewise.  The Barbican there offers the world the Jacka Bakery and Plymouth Gin, among other inspirations.  ;) :D ;D

Did somebody say "Drink!"???


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 20, 2016, 03:37:58 pm
Details of the rebuilding of Acton Main Line station.  Perhaps it should now be renamed Acton Elizabeth Line?   ;)

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/green-light-for-major-improvements-at-acton-main-line-station
Hope the new platforms are not going to be 200m long as the new trains are 205m long ::) :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on May 20, 2016, 07:56:11 pm

Elswhere on the LizRail website it says that platforms are to be 250m long.

Just nice for standard formations of 12 x 20m or 10 x 23m.

Pity the young journalists writing up these articles can't quote figures accurately.

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on May 21, 2016, 08:28:11 am
There will be some platforms with SDO, Hanwell and Twyford (Plat 4, not sure about the other 3) are 2 examples I know of


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 21, 2016, 10:03:26 am
I think you can add Langley, Burnham and Taplow to that list.  That was certainly the case originally anyway.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on May 21, 2016, 11:17:26 am
Hope the new platforms are not going to be 200m long as the new trains are 205m long ::) :P

That's a bit mean.

The press release actually says: "Platform extensions to accommodate the new 200 metre long trains."

I'd say that's truly approximate - in the original sense of "close enough for our current purposes" (i.e. a non-technical journalism/PR).

But how long are these trains? There's no real technical data that I can see.

Wikipedia doesn't know (unusually). Bombardier would rather not talk about Aventra at all. And Bomdardier do say "Each Crossrail train will be just over 200 metres in length, made up of nine carriages and able to carry over 1,500 passengers."

They were specified as 205 m long or less, and to carry 1500 or more. The tunnel platforms are 250 m long, and the ITT called for one or two extra vehicles per unit within that length. But Crossrail refer to this full length as 240 m. And those are all published figures - the ITT may have been slightly different.

Now if 11-car is 250 m, then 9-car is 204.5 m - which I think I've seen quoted. But I suspect it's closer to 245 and 200.5 m.

Not that the odd metre or two within the predefined limits makes a whole load of difference.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 21, 2016, 05:18:20 pm
All I can tell you is that the specification for the part of the Elizabeth Line that I'm currently working on specifies 205m with the option to make passive provision for 240m.  There is a +/-1m stopping tolerance that has also been specified.  Hope the new drivers are good at braking............ ::) :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 25, 2016, 09:33:24 am
Article on the Acton Dive Under - now pretty much complete with work to install electrification equipment currently ongoing:

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2016/07/24/crossrail-completes-acton-railway-dive-under/


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 25, 2016, 10:00:39 pm
Article on the Acton Dive Under - now pretty much complete with work to install electrification equipment currently ongoing:

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2016/07/24/crossrail-completes-acton-railway-dive-under/

Looking at the type of OLE fittings they are putting up looks like its going to use conductor beam


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on July 26, 2016, 05:20:13 pm

I was wondering whether there is any scope for the conductor beam in place of catenary on surface track? The problems of tension, weight and sideways thrust would be avoided.

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 26, 2016, 05:48:28 pm
Yes.   It can be used in theory, but it needs a massively increased number of portals to hold what is now a heavier and rigid conductor system in place.   So its only practical use on plain track is probably to deal with relatively short sections between tunnels that actually need it.

There are pictures of conductor beam in use in the open on Furrer and Frey's website.

http://www.furrerfrey.ch/en/systems/conductor_rail.html#

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on July 27, 2016, 12:15:00 am

The "in the open" masts looked quite slim and the temporary installation used existing spacing masts. It was also claimed to be "elegant" and even could be "hinged" !

I agree that they were trying to sell it but the case for it appears stronger.


OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 27, 2016, 07:28:15 pm
Article on the Acton Dive Under - now pretty much complete with work to install electrification equipment currently ongoing:

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2016/07/24/crossrail-completes-acton-railway-dive-under/

Looking at the type of OLE fittings they are putting up looks like its going to use conductor beam

I have the (mis) fortune to pass the dive under at a speed I could see the OLE fittings.  On a "closer" inspection they are in fact standard contact wire and catenary arrangement.

Conductor beam needs a support at a max of 12 metres (for a 110mm beam) closer together for high speed,


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on July 27, 2016, 07:42:49 pm
Conductor beam needs a support at a max of 12 metres (for a 110mm beam) closer together for high speed,

For comparison, conductor wire is supported at 70 m max intervals (F+F figure).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: onthecushions on July 28, 2016, 12:00:18 am

MR August gave a spacing of 8.5m for the roof supports in the Severn Tunnel. It depends how "floppy" the beam is and the necessary curvature.

There's also a new  acronymn on the block - ROCS - Rigid Overhead Conductor Systems! F & F describe them as "fit and forget", with favourable whole life costs.

I believe the outdoor GW masts/stanchions are spaced at 50m compared to Mark 3 at 73m max.

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 28, 2016, 11:58:15 am
There's also a new  acronymn on the block - ROCS - Rigid Overhead Conductor Systems

Thanks, onthecushions: I've added it to the Coffee Shop forum acronyms / abbreviations (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html) page. CfN.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 28, 2016, 07:41:17 pm
There's also a new  acronymn on the block - ROCS - Rigid Overhead Conductor Systems

Thanks, onthecushions: I've added it to the Coffee Shop forum acronyms / abbreviations (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html) page. CfN.
....hmm, need to be careful with that one CfN as it also stands for Railway Operating Centre(s)...... ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 28, 2016, 09:42:15 pm
Yes, I noticed that there were already several alternative definitions for a few of the abbreviations on that page.  I'll look again at how best to offer clarity in such cases.  ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 28, 2016, 10:18:36 pm

MR August gave a spacing of 8.5m for the roof supports in the Severn Tunnel. It depends how "floppy" the beam is and the necessary curvature.

OTC

More to do with line speed, in Canal Tunnels (part of Thameslink) the spacing of the beam supports was 12 meters because the lines speed is 50kph


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ray951 on July 29, 2016, 11:44:58 am
First pictures of the new trains have now appeared:
Exterior: http://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/758964943441960961/photo/1 (http://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/758964943441960961/photo/1)

And a short interior video http://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/758971881500188672/video/1 (http://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/758971881500188672/video/1)

I notice that it isn't completely longitudinal seating, there are a small number of side-by-side seats.
Travelling all the way from Reading in those longitudinal seats does not look like fun, I guess most commuters from Reading will stick with the GWR trains.
Although I wonder if there will be cheaper Crossrail only season tickets to entice commuters off the GWR trains?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: a-driver on July 29, 2016, 11:50:58 am
First pictures of the new trains have now appeared:
Exterior: http://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/758964943441960961/photo/1 (http://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/758964943441960961/photo/1)

And a short interior video http://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/758971881500188672/video/1 (http://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/758971881500188672/video/1)

I notice that it isn't completely longitudinal seating, there are a small number of side-by-side seats.
Travelling all the way from Reading in those longitudinal seats does not look like fun, I guess most commuters from Reading will stick with the GWR trains.
Although I wonder if there will be cheaper Crossrail only season tickets to entice commuters off the GWR trains?


I have to be honest they look awful but nothing less than we expected..... on the positive side, I suppose the seat trim will hide the vomit nicely.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 29, 2016, 12:31:03 pm
I notice that it isn't completely longitudinal seating, there are a small number of side-by-side seats.

There ought to be a significant number of side by side seats over the whole length of the train.  It is the only way of getting the declared total number of seats per train in, which averages out at 50 per carriage.

By comparison LO 378s are fully longitudinal, but only have about 34 seats per car on average.   Although the 345s are 3m longer, they also have an additional set of doors in each car, which will take up nearly all of that 'extra' length.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ray951 on July 29, 2016, 12:37:00 pm
Quote
There ought to be a significant number of side by side seats over the whole length of the train.  It is the only way of getting the declared total number of seats per train in, which averages out at 50 per carriage.

Paul
Looking at that video there only appear to be 16 side-by-side seats in that carriage, although of course that may not be typical of each carriage and is that video even a whole carriage length?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 29, 2016, 01:23:00 pm
Looking at that video there only appear to be 16 side-by-side seats in that carriage, although of course that may not be typical of each carriage and is that video even a whole carriage length?

If that was 8 either side of the centre doors only, so 16 per 9 carriages, it would be 144 over the train length, which has 450 seats declared by TfL, so 32%.   I would expect some cars will have flip up seats in stead of longitudinal ones adjacent to some multipurpose wheelchair/pushchair spaces.   

Don't know what bike policy will be on CR1 though, has anyone heard?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 29, 2016, 04:46:35 pm
Why no yellow ends?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 29, 2016, 04:53:28 pm
Why no yellow ends?

Because all modern trains have (very) powerful (duplicated) headlights and I can tell you can certainly see those before you can see a yellow end.... ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: chrisr_75 on July 29, 2016, 05:06:10 pm
Why no yellow ends?

Because all modern trains have (very) powerful (duplicated) headlights and I can tell you can certainly see those before you can see a yellow end.... ;)

Are the yellow cab ends no longer mandatory? I'm surprised the unions let that one slip past if that is the case...

Should also add that modern light technology (presume most use either LED or HID units these days?) is hugely more reliable than 'old fashioned' incandescent filament bulbs, so the risk of lights failing is very much diminished.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 29, 2016, 05:21:08 pm
Are the yellow cab ends no longer mandatory? I'm surprised the unions let that one slip past if that is the case...

Should also add that modern light technology (presume most use either LED or HID units these days?) is hugely more reliable than 'old fashioned' incandescent filament bulbs, so the risk of lights failing is very much diminished.

There was stuff online on RSSBs website while back, and the process of amending the Rail Group Standard went on for about 2 years.   If the trade unions missed it at the time they mustn't have read the memo, I can't believe they aren't part of such a decision making process.

Of course if someone is determined to cause problems...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ray951 on July 29, 2016, 08:20:33 pm
More pictures here http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/pictures-crossrails-trains-make-debut/ (http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/pictures-crossrails-trains-make-debut/)

On question where do passengers put there luggage as it has no luggage racks?

The interior does really look like a tube train rather than an outer suburban unit (I assume Reading can be classed as outer suburban)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 29, 2016, 09:00:11 pm
Are the yellow cab ends no longer mandatory? I'm surprised the unions let that one slip past if that is the case...

Should also add that modern light technology (presume most use either LED or HID units these days?) is hugely more reliable than 'old fashioned' incandescent filament bulbs, so the risk of lights failing is very much diminished.

There was stuff online on RSSBs website while back, and the process of amending the Rail Group Standard went on for about 2 years.   If the trade unions missed it at the time they mustn't have read the memo, I can't believe they aren't part of such a decision making process.

Of course if someone is determined to cause problems...

Paul

The Trade Unions sit on various RSSB committees in an advisory roll, they would have been consulted as part of the discussions. 

Give me the bright headlights over grubby yellow paint, as S&T Engineer said you can see the head lamps well before the yellow paint


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 29, 2016, 10:19:59 pm
More pictures here http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/pictures-crossrails-trains-make-debut/ (http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/pictures-crossrails-trains-make-debut/)

On question where do passengers put there luggage as it has no luggage racks?

The interior does really look like a tube train rather than an outer suburban unit (I assume Reading can be classed as outer suburban)

It always has been a pseudo tube train, which is why there's two schools of thought about the extension to Reading, as seen in a few years of discussions here...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on July 29, 2016, 10:51:59 pm
On question where do passengers put there luggage as it has no luggage racks?

I've been on a number of trains (7) today and can answer that with sufficient sample size for it to be statistically significant.  On the seat beside them. On the seat opposite them.  In the footwell of the seat beside them. Blocking the jumpy seats on a nice full 153. In the entrance doorway. Similar places used for storage of toddlers under the age of 5 who haven't had a fare paid for them, even when the train is full and standing and passengers are being redirected to a backup coach.

Also seen my first example of a (full size, racing) bicycle that couldn't be stored in coach A (presumably because of lack of reservation) being kept in the lobby of coach C, restricting access at stations.

Been an interesting day!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 30, 2016, 11:08:34 am
Are the yellow cab ends no longer mandatory? I'm surprised the unions let that one slip past if that is the case...

Should also add that modern light technology (presume most use either LED or HID units these days?) is hugely more reliable than 'old fashioned' incandescent filament bulbs, so the risk of lights failing is very much diminished.

There was stuff online on RSSBs website while back, and the process of amending the Rail Group Standard went on for about 2 years.   If the trade unions missed it at the time they mustn't have read the memo, I can't believe they aren't part of such a decision making process.

Of course if someone is determined to cause problems...

Paul

The Trade Unions sit on various RSSB committees in an advisory roll, they would have been consulted as part of the discussions. 

Give me the bright headlights over grubby yellow paint, as S&T Engineer said you can see the head lamps well before the yellow paint
In which case the question becomes why other new trains, such as the IEPs, do have yellow ends? (But maybe that doesn't really belong in this thread...)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 02, 2016, 10:33:41 am
More excellent pictures showing progress under the tunnels.  Starting to look like a real railway now!

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2016/08/31/fresh-photos-from-the-crossrail-tunnels-released/


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: patch38 on October 05, 2016, 09:33:46 am
Drone flight through tunnels and along Paddington platform:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/37558715 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/37558715)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 08, 2016, 04:34:28 pm
Another large raft of signalling and infrastructure improvements going in over this Christmas/New Year period as Crossrail comes ever closer to being a reality.  Here's a summary for those that are interested:

Paddington:
Platforms 11/12/13 are being altered (as we have already discussed), so that short Platforms 12 and 13 are combined into one Platform 12 which will eventually 294m long.  Initially it will remain a short platform whilst the new platform is built after the holiday period, but Platform 13 closes.  The track layout is therefore altered so that Platform 11 (at 291m) can always be used along its full length without blocking the entrance to Platform 12 as it currently does.  When complete, and with some moved signals on other platforms, it means that all platforms except 6/7 (Heathrow Express) 10 and 14 will be long enough to accommodate a 10-car 26m long train.

Ladbroke Grove/Kensal Green:
The new lines that replace the former Carriage Reception Lines 1 and 2, known as Crossrail Depot Lines 1 and 2 partially come into use.  When finished and the Crossrail depot opens it will make access to and from the depot much better than it would have been had the existing layout been kept.

Acton:
The new dive-under opens and trains can be signalled on the Up Relief from Ealing on the new Acton Relief Line under the Up and Down Poplar freight lines, so anything coming off of Acton Yard or down from Acton Wells Junction can access the Down Relief line without hindering trains on the Up Relief.

West Ealing:
The new stabling sidings for Class 387s open, with three loop lines enabling trains to depart/arrive from either the West Ealing or Hanwell directions.  Stabling at North Pole Depot for these units should then cease.

Hayes & Harlington:
An additional crossover will provide access to the extended 8-car bay platform at Hayes, improving the current arrangement where trains have to run 'wrong road' on the Up Relief in the down direction from Southall West Junction.

Airport Junction:
The expansion of Airport Junction is completed with the commissioning of track and signals on the new flyover which bridges the Up and Down Relief lines.  Basically means that there are very few conflicting moves and maximum flexibility for trains heading to and from the Airport and those on the main lines.

Maidenhead:
Both track and signalling alterations will apply at Maidenhead:
  • The current platform 5 which leads to and from the Bourne End branch will have a new connection at the west end and become the bi-directional 'Maidenhead Loop' line.
  • The link with the Bourne End branch and Platform 4 on the Up Relief will be removed.
  • The Down Relief line will be slewed west of the station and a 254m turnback siding, the 'Maidenhead Turnback Line', will be commissioned between the both relief lines.
  • Connections to the Crossrail 6-road stabling sidings at Maidenhead will be provided for future access to/from Platforms 4 and 5, when the stabling sidings have been built.
  • A Ground Position Signal will be installed on the Down Relief at the western end to provide an additional turnback from Down Relief to Up Relief as well as Down Relief to the Maidenhead Relief Line.
  • New routes and fixed red signals will mean it becomes possible to turnback trains in Platform 2 (Up Main) from the Down Main. Also turnback trains in Platform 3 from the Down Relief or Down Main to go back to the Up Main.
  • Finally trains arriving from the west in the Up Direction will be able to turnback at Maidenhead by shunting onto the Down Main to a new fixed red signal before returning into any platform.

All these alterations assist the flexibility of operations during engineering work as well as service disruption.

Quite a lot to be done - let's hope it all gets completed in time!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on October 08, 2016, 04:49:46 pm
Thanks II, very interesting.  Was initially surprised by the extent of works at Maidenhead, but as you say Crossrail needs to be able to work even if they’re arriving and/or departing on the ML’s during disruption etc.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: hertzsprung on October 08, 2016, 05:52:38 pm
Another large raft of signalling and infrastructure improvements going in over this Christmas/New Year period as Crossrail comes ever closer to being a reality.  Here's a summary for those that are interested:

Both track and signalling alterations will apply at Maidenhead:
  • The current platform 5 which leads to and from the Bourne End branch will have a new connection at the west end and become the bi-directional 'Maidenhead Loop' line.
  • The link with the Bourne End branch and Platform 4 on the Up Relief will be removed.
Does this mean that trains approaching from Reading will be able to run into Platform 5?  How will this new arrangement work for trains coming off the branch running through to Paddington?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 08, 2016, 06:00:00 pm
Does this mean that trains approaching from Reading will be able to run into Platform 5?  How will this new arrangement work for trains coming off the branch running through to Paddington?

Yes, that's right - as long as they're on the relief line.

It'll mean it won't be possible to have a Bourne End train waiting to depart Maidenhead whilst one arrives off of the branch as sometimes happens in the peaks now, so there will need to be a couple of tweaks to the timetable for a few months.  Then from May, the through trains cease to be anyway with the arrival of peak time 8-Car Class 387 services between Maidenhead and Paddington, with the branch just operating as a shuttle service to/from Platform 5 as it does now during the off-peak hours.

I'm sure they'll be some negative press about that nearer the time...  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: hertzsprung on October 08, 2016, 06:57:18 pm
Does this mean that trains approaching from Reading will be able to run into Platform 5?  How will this new arrangement work for trains coming off the branch running through to Paddington?

Yes, that's right - as long as they're on the relief line.

It'll mean it won't be possible to have a Bourne End train waiting to depart Maidenhead whilst one arrives off of the branch as sometimes happens in the peaks now, so there will need to be a couple of tweaks to the timetable for a few months.  Then from May, the through trains cease to be anyway with the arrival of peak time 8-Car Class 387 services between Maidenhead and Paddington, with the branch just operating as a shuttle service to/from Platform 5 as it does now during the off-peak hours.
I hadn't realised timetable changes were occurring so soon.  Will the half-hourly peak service still continue, but use just two shuttles rather than through trains?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 08, 2016, 07:13:32 pm
Quote
It'll mean it won't be possible to have a Bourne End train waiting to depart Maidenhead whilst one arrives off of the branch as sometimes happens in the peaks now, so there will need to be a couple of tweaks to the timetable for a few months.

Yup, the 17:42 from Paddington will from January terminate at Maidenhead and run back empty as 3H62, whilst the 18:10 arrival from Bourne End will head back up the branch at 18:15, simply swapping roles with each other. Likewise the 18:42 from Paddington will continue ECS to Reading TD instead of going up the branch

PS, thank you II for that detailed update posted earlier.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 08, 2016, 07:21:36 pm
Quote
I hadn't realised timetable changes were occurring so soon.  Will the half-hourly peak service still continue, but use just two shuttles rather than through trains?

Yes, the half-hourly shuttle remains, with some minor timetable adjustments with just the one direct service 08:28 from Bourne End and 16:42 from Paddington continuing until May when all direct services will stop.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on October 08, 2016, 08:03:28 pm
So given recent experience on the Greenford branch, can commuters expect missed connections and a half hourly wait on a regular basis I wonder?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 08, 2016, 10:45:54 pm
I would imagine the staffing situation at Maidenhead, and the affluence/influence of some of the Cookham and Marlow passengers, will mean it's far more likely the train will wait a little longer...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on October 08, 2016, 11:32:56 pm
So given recent experience on the Greenford branch, can commuters expect missed connections and a half hourly wait on a regular basis I wonder?

Why? Apart from the odd couple of peak trains, it (the Marlow branch) is already run by shuttles. Each stops for nine minutes to connect onto an up train and off a down train on the main line. All that stays the same, provided there is a regular half-hourly Paddington train each way within a minute or two of each other.

Greenford currently has a mixture of through and shuttle trains, and the right timings for these relative to the main-line services are different. The branch round-trip time doesn't allow that mixture, so for the time being (until the through trains stop) they don't mesh properly.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Sixty3Closure on October 09, 2016, 12:59:44 am
Any update on what sort of non-Crossrail service we might get at Twyford?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: a-driver on October 09, 2016, 06:33:18 am
Any update on what sort of non-Crossrail service we might get at Twyford?

CrossRail, in whatever form you get at Twyford, will be a brilliant service. Mainly because their trains will have priority over anything else between Reading and Paddington. If a CrossRail service is running late or their is disruption CrossRail will use the main lines at the expense of long distance services.
The same applies over on Greater Anglia. CrossRail will have total priority.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on October 09, 2016, 07:48:47 am
Any update on what sort of non-Crossrail service we might get at Twyford?

CrossRail, in whatever form you get at Twyford, will be a brilliant service. Mainly because their trains will have priority over anything else between Reading and Paddington. If a CrossRail service is running late or their is disruption CrossRail will use the main lines at the expense of long distance services.
The same applies over on Greater Anglia. CrossRail will have total priority.

Has this been agreed by all parties? How have TfL got such sweetheart deal for the Elizabeth Line? Is this written into contracts? Can we see proof?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on October 09, 2016, 08:02:52 am
So given recent experience on the Greenford branch, can commuters expect missed connections and a half hourly wait on a regular basis I wonder?

Why? Apart from the odd couple of peak trains, it (the Marlow branch) is already run by shuttles. Each stops for nine minutes to connect onto an up train and off a down train on the main line. All that stays the same, provided there is a regular half-hourly Paddington train each way within a minute or two of each other.

Greenford currently has a mixture of through and shuttle trains, and the right timings for these relative to the main-line services are different. The branch round-trip time doesn't allow that mixture, so for the time being (until the through trains stop) they don't mesh properly.


Yes, but it's the reliability of the peak hour services that is most likely to cause issues given that a connection will now be necessary. The evidence of the recent change to Greenford peak services is that GWR won't adopt a policy of holding trains on the branches.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 09, 2016, 09:23:17 am
Quote
Any update on what sort of non-Crossrail service we might get at Twyford?

In answer to your original question, it is likely Twyford will see the same as today with the 2tph Paddington to Reading services being taken over by Crossrail (and therefore extending through London) and the 2tph Paddington to Oxford being the non-Crossrail service with a likely stopping pattern of Ealing, Hayes, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading and all stations to Didcot/Oxford. Unsure at the moment of any additional 'fast peak' services that currently operate.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on October 09, 2016, 10:34:32 am
If the non-Crossrail 2tph Padd – Oxford stopping service are running ML out of Padd are they going to be stopping at Ealing and Hayes? 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 09, 2016, 10:45:15 am
I believe they are to be routed on the relief lines.  Once the full IEP timetable is in operation on the main lines there will be precious little spare capacity for them - not that there will be much on the relief lines either! 

Whilst there's a lot of extra flexibility being built into the network (witness the Maidenhead changes I posted about yesterday), at the end of the day it is still basically just a 4-track railway.  I'm going to be very interested to see how the timetables eventually shape up.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on October 09, 2016, 01:01:55 pm
Any update on what sort of non-Crossrail service we might get at Twyford?

CrossRail, in whatever form you get at Twyford, will be a brilliant service. Mainly because their trains will have priority over anything else between Reading and Paddington. If a CrossRail service is running late or their is disruption CrossRail will use the main lines at the expense of long distance services.
The same applies over on Greater Anglia. CrossRail will have total priority.

Has this been agreed by all parties? How have TfL got such sweetheart deal for the Elizabeth Line? Is this written into contracts? Can we see proof?

Also, this means huge comp claims on Crossrail whenever their network failures cause delay / disruption, if they can then commandere the mail lines, thus delaying other operators services on those main lines. They won't have been able to contract their way out of that, simply because other operators wouldn't pay their customers comp out of their own pockets - they'd insist on claiming it back from the cause operator as they do currently


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on October 09, 2016, 01:03:43 pm
I believe they are to be routed on the relief lines.  Once the full IEP timetable is in operation on the main lines there will be precious little spare capacity for them - not that there will be much on the relief lines either! 

I thought one reason that the GWR EMU's were specified for 110 mph was to facilitate pathing on the ML's.  With 10 Crossrails each way west of Padd (ie 1 every 6 minutes) plus the freights presumably pathed in between, and running at the same average speed as, the Crossrails, there doesn't seem to be much opportunity for the GWR EMU's to get from Padd - Maidenhead any quicker than the Crossrails if they run RL.  Dynamic loops would help, but that requires very accurate timekeeping which .. er .. GWR aren't very good at.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 09, 2016, 03:07:13 pm
The 10 crossrails west of Paddington in the peak will unlikely be 'every 6 minutes' as it will be a 4/4/2 split (Berkshire/Heathrow/West Drayton) so some marginally larger gaps than that will be in the timetable for 'other' services.

During the off-peak the 2tph to West Drayton will not operate allowing more space for the freights, which in turn don't operate in the rush-hour in the peak flow direction.

The 110mph is more useful for those services that will be operating on the main lines fast to Didcot/Swindon/Oxford and those (that were) going to Newbury.

Quote
there doesn't seem to be much opportunity for the GWR EMU's to get from Padd - Maidenhead any quicker than the Crossrails if they run RL
Agreed, even with some clever timetabling it may not be possible to operate the stoppers at the optimum level, also bearing in mind the reliefs are only 90mph for the best part.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 09, 2016, 03:32:37 pm
Quote
The 10 crossrails west of Paddington in the peak will unlikely be 'every 6 minutes' as it will be a 4/4/2 split (Berkshire/Heathrow/West Drayton) so some marginally larger gaps than that will be in the timetable for 'other' services.

Purely a guess regarding timetabling, but an example regarding crossrail could be:
xx:00/xx:30 to Reading
xx:05/xx:35 to Heathrow
xx:10/xx:40 to West Drayton
xx:15/xx:45 to Maidenhead
xx:20/xx:50 to Heathrow

This leaves a gap at xx:25/xx:55 allowing a class 387 to leave Paddington main at xx:27/xx:57, 7 minutes behind a Heathrow service allowing approximately 4 minutes of 'catching up' with the service in front before that turns off at Hayes, with a further 5 minutes of 'catching up' the next Crossrail service before reaching Maidenhead.

The Crossrail website says it should take 36 minutes from Paddington to Maidenhead, meaning from a timetabling point of view a class 387 could do it in 27 minutes whilst fitting in between the Crossrail services.


Quote
with a likely stopping pattern of Ealing, Hayes, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford
Just found this link on the crossrail website which actually corrects my earlier post by stating that Hayes will not be called at by the 387s
Crossrail service pattern (http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/c/original/crossrail_service_pattern-reading_to_central_london_aug_2016.pdf)



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 09, 2016, 04:10:48 pm
Just found this link on the crossrail website which actually corrects my earlier post by stating that Hayes will not be called at by the 387s
Crossrail service pattern (http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/c/original/crossrail_service_pattern-reading_to_central_london_aug_2016.pdf)

In the peak hours, but calls are still listed for the off-peak.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on October 09, 2016, 04:35:07 pm
27 mins (which is a pretty optimistic calculation!) for GWR Padd – Maidenhead fast rush hour services running between Crossrails on the DR is slower than currently.  Might be more resilient - and certainly much quicker - to run the 387’s on the DM to Dolphin.  Else we can reprise GWR’s advertising line for those nice, uncomplaining Maidenhead commuters – “here’s your new train service – it’s now 5 minutes longer to London”.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 09, 2016, 04:47:16 pm
Quote
In the peak hours, but calls are still listed for the off-peak.

Oops, my mistake  :-[


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 09, 2016, 05:03:10 pm
Quote
27 mins (which is a pretty optimistic calculation!) for GWR Padd – Maidenhead fast rush hour services running between Crossrails on the DR is slower than currently.  Might be more resilient - and certainly much quicker - to run the 387’s on the DM to Dolphin.  Else we can reprise GWR’s advertising line for those nice, uncomplaining Maidenhead commuters – “here’s your new train service – it’s now 5 minutes longer to London”.

Certainly is much quicker on the mains, although I was referring to the standard semi-fast services, rather than fast rush hour services. In that case, not sure what will happen during peak hours, as I said earlier regarding Twyford:
Quote
Unsure at the moment of any additional 'fast peak' services that currently operate.
I don't think we know what, if any 'fast' services will run to Maidenhead and Twyford. There will be very little capacity left on the mains as II stated earlier, and the less crossovers between the 'mains' and 'reliefs' the better.

I'm guessing it may be possible to stop the odd Cotswold or Newbury services on the main lines, although these would be with the class 800s rather than the 387s.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on October 09, 2016, 05:33:02 pm
My solution would be to take the Ealing stop out of the 387’s (can’t really see the point – you don’t want Oxford semi-fasts cluttered up with Ealing commuters, and the TfL connection opportunities for those to/from the west will largely be taken over by Crossrail at Padd).

Out of Padd you then timetable on the DM the 110 mph 387’s (2 tph Oxford semifast, 2 tph Oxford fast) 3 mins ahead of the 100 mph HX 323’s (4tph), with an IEP following (as happens now with a 125 mph HST).  The 387 peels off at Dolphin (which I hope is more than the 40 mph it was in my day!), and the 323 peels off at Airport Junction.  The following IEP sees green lights all the way (maybe!)

This plan offers an efficient use of track capacity and train speed capabilities.




Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on October 09, 2016, 06:50:51 pm
The 387 peels off at Dolphin (which I hope is more than the 40 mph it was in my day!)

That's a flat junction, isn't it?    Won't it interfere with trains coming the other way?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on October 09, 2016, 06:58:27 pm
All flat junctions do - eg Didcot East, Wolvercote, Wootton Basset, Westerleigh etc on GWR, and perhaps more relevantly lots on TfL with intensive services - but that doesn't stop them being used!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 09, 2016, 07:59:13 pm
Still 40mph at Dolphin!  Stockley Bridge has a 70mph crossover, but even then you're still introducing four conflicting moves each hour which I would imagine won't be acceptable during normal operations, given the three or so extra trains an hour which will be using the mains in each direction.

Perhaps the odd train in the peak will utilise those crossovers, as they do now.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on October 10, 2016, 09:10:49 am
We'll just have to wait and see the post Crossrail timetable for 2019.  Looks like it won't please everyone.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on October 10, 2016, 10:27:17 am
I've always said Crossrail doesn't work West of Padd, or maybe Hayes.

Don't forget they may well be further complications when the Western approach to Heathrow is built it is suggested that GW semi fasts from Reading/ Oxford?t might run through Heathrow ad rejoin at Stockley then to Padd.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on October 10, 2016, 10:39:38 am
Which will make them slower than the slow Reading/Padd services....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 10, 2016, 10:44:01 am
I've always said Crossrail doesn't work West of Padd, or maybe Hayes.

We'll find out whether you've be right in a couple of years.

Don't forget they may well be further complications when the Western approach to Heathrow is built it is suggested that GW semi fasts from Reading/ Oxford?t might run through Heathrow ad rejoin at Stockley then to Padd.

Which will make them slower than the slow Reading/Padd services....

With grade separated junctions at both ends I don't see it making too much difference, indeed it could make pathing the trains easier as if the Oxford stoppers were routed via Heathrow they wouldn't catch up the previous Crossrail train which has stopped at West Drayton and Iver so quickly, though it won't add that much time to the journey going via Heathrow, 4-5 minutes maybe?  Many years until we have to think about that though!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on October 10, 2016, 11:07:34 am
Figure 3.10 on page 45 of the Western RUS (dated August 2015) suggests some Class 387 semi-fasts from Newbury and Oxford will be using the ML’s into Padd. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 10, 2016, 11:29:47 am
Yes, that covers the morning peak and as I said there is a chance a few will do then (probably running fast from Twyford, Maidenhead or Slough as they do now) and crossing over at either Maidenhead East, Dolphin Junction or Stockley Bridge.  Bear in mind that they will also likely be one direction only for a couple of hours each peak, so not as conflicting as an all-day both directions service crossing over twice per hour.   I doubt any off-peak trains, with the stopping pattern we've described, will use the main lines.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: lordgoata on October 10, 2016, 12:31:39 pm
I'm really not liking what I am reading here. Being a local commuter through Reading to Maidenhead it is sounding more and more like I will have to change at Reading onto Crossrail to get to Maidenhead on time, if Crossrail will take priority over FGW stoppers.

And being a FGW season ticket holder, its still unclear to me if I will then need two season tickets, one for FGW to Reading and one for Crossrail to Maidenhead ?

And if I do, but the timings for me work out that I need Crossrail in order to be at Maidenhead the same time as I am currently, but FGW works better for my commute home, does that mean I will need a FGW season to/from Maidenhead, and a Crossrail to/from Maidenhead?!

Maybe its time to learn to drive ...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 10, 2016, 01:28:36 pm
Through season tickets, valid on Crossrail, will exist as they do now for that journey.  Can't promise you won't have to change at Reading mind you, we'll just have to see how the timetables shake up.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on October 10, 2016, 03:06:36 pm
What he said. Through seasons have always been available, why the fear that this would change?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: lordgoata on October 10, 2016, 09:12:29 pm
Through season tickets, valid on Crossrail, will exist as they do now for that journey.  Can't promise you won't have to change at Reading mind you, we'll just have to see how the timetables shake up.

Thanks II.

Quote from: ChrisB
What he said. Through seasons have always been available, why the fear that this would change?

Nothing to do with fear Chris, just a simple not understanding of how the railway works. I have said before that it was only when I found this forum that I even realised different companies served different areas. Prior to starting to commute back in 2008 I hadn't used the trains since 1991, and even then only ever travelled between Paddington and Maidenhead. I knew British Rail no longer existed, but I didn't realise they were split into different companies (I guess as I was never exposed to anything other than the local companies).

I still only do one fixed journey on the railways, only using GWR, and have one season ticket with them. I had no clue such things as multi-company through season tickets even existed.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on October 10, 2016, 09:33:31 pm
Fyi, you can get a season from anywhere to anywhere, assuming you can reasonably do it & a days work in a day. Whoever operates the public trains.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on October 11, 2016, 11:11:28 am
<SNIP>
Agreed, even with some clever timetabling it may not be possible to operate the stoppers at the optimum level, also bearing in mind the reliefs are only 90mph for the best part.

As are the Class 345 trains being built for Crossrail.

This also tells me that they will only let out onto the Mains in extremis.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on October 14, 2016, 04:37:47 pm
Paddington:
Platforms 11/12/13 are being altered (as we have already discussed), so that short Platforms 12 and 13 are combined into one Platform 12 which will eventually 294m long.  Initially it will remain a short platform whilst the new platform is built after the holiday period, but Platform 13 closes. 

While crossing the bridge between the H&C and the main station I noticed that the redundant lift shafts and associated equipment rooms above the 'short' platforms in that area are being demolished. (Was there an LU ticket office as well a few years back?) I'm surprised it wasn't done years ago, but I guess out of sight out of mind?

I thought I'd mention it here because I suspect it is required to be done at last to make additional circulation space at platform level?  I remember reading something a while ago about a big project to completely redo the access at this end of the main station, but it seems to have gone a bit quiet...

 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 14, 2016, 04:52:28 pm
In terms of the lift shaft, I believe that's right in the way of where the realigned track for the extended Platform 12 will be located, so it has had to go.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on October 14, 2016, 05:04:22 pm
In terms of the lift shaft, I believe that's right in the way of where the realigned track for the extended Platform 12 will be located, so it has had to go.

That makes sense, now that I've thought about it, but removing the one on P14 side is probably not strictly necessary, but I guess it makes sense to take it out at the same time.    Might allow them to get a more consistent platform surface level right across what will presumably be quite a wide section once the work is complete?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: FremlinsMan on October 14, 2016, 10:31:49 pm
It'll soon be time for the IET Railway Annual Lecture and Dinner -

The lecture is free and open to all, dinner is £55 for IET members, £70 for non-members
http://conferences.theiet.org/railway-lecture/about/index.cfm (http://conferences.theiet.org/railway-lecture/about/index.cfm)


===

About the event
 

The IET’s Railway Annual Lecture and Dinner is one of the calendar’s key networking events for the railway sector.

This years’ lecture ‘Innovation in the UK Rail Industry’ will be given by Adrian Shooter CBE who will draw upon his years’ of experience in the rail industry to present to you how and why engineers are best placed to lead the charge in terms of customer focused innovation.

The lecture is then followed by an optional networking drinks reception and three course dinner (at an additional cost) which is available to those attendees looking to extend their evening and networking opportunities.

 

Dinner registration
Attendees can extend their evening and networking with peers from the rail engineering world!

Register yourself and your colleagues to enjoy a sumptuous three course dinner with wine and coffee held at the IET London: Savoy Place.

There are no seating plans for the dinner. Dinner guests can choose their own places so everyone will get to mingle with who they want.

 

Programme
18:00 - Registration and light refreshments
18:30 - Lecture commences
19:30 - Optional networking drinks reception
20:00 - Optional dinner
22:00 - End of event

---




Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on October 15, 2016, 08:06:47 am
Paddington:
Platforms 11/12/13 are being altered (as we have already discussed), so that short Platforms 12 and 13 are combined into one Platform 12 which will eventually 294m long.  Initially it will remain a short platform whilst the new platform is built after the holiday period, but Platform 13 closes. 

While crossing the bridge between the H&C and the main station I noticed that the redundant lift shafts and associated equipment rooms above the 'short' platforms in that area are being demolished. (Was there an LU ticket office as well a few years back?) I'm surprised it wasn't done years ago, but I guess out of sight out of mind?

I thought I'd mention it here because I suspect it is required to be done at last to make additional circulation space at platform level?  I remember reading something a while ago about a big project to completely redo the access at this end of the main station, but it seems to have gone a bit quiet...

 

There was a LUL ticket office on the over bridge put in when the ticket barriers were installed. 

There used to be a ticket office called Ticket Office 'D' over platform * at the top of the stairs, this was demolished when the over bridge and platform 8 stairs were realigned for HEX work to widen platforms 6 & 7.

There was a series of lifts across the platform "extensions" platforms 2 & 3, 4 & 5 6 & & and 8 had a lift from a subway which ran down from London end platform 1A to platform 8.  The lift on 8 was 3 floors subway to over bridge.  From the over bridge 10 & 11, 12, 13 & 14 and 15 & 16 all had lifts.

Platform 1A was the DPO (Down Parcels Office) Platform 12 was the UPO (Up Parcels Office)

When I worked at Paddington maintenance the only lifts in service was 8 (platform to bridge) 13 & 14 this was to move Red Star parcels and Royal Mail, the ramp was then built between 12 and 13 / 14 and the lift decommissioned.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 24, 2016, 11:44:19 am
According to reports on another forum the structures over the Maidenhead Viaduct have now been installed and are of a similar design to those at Goring.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on October 24, 2016, 05:40:09 pm
Programme
18:00 - Registration and light refreshments
18:30 - Lecture commences
19:30 - Optional networking drinks reception
20:00 - Optional dinner
22:00 - End of event

Carriages at 2230 (MkIII, perhaps?)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on October 30, 2016, 06:16:24 pm
I was at an IET talk on Friday by long-time Crossrail insider (now a consultant) Charles Devereux. He was talking mainly about preparations for operational use, that being his main role. There were a couple of things he said at the end (just before rushing off to catch a train) that are perhaps of interest.

On the subject of terminating so many trains at Westbourne Park, and the alternatives, his opinion was that this would not be a big issue - eventually. Westbourne Park is only temporary, until Old Oak Common becomes the real terminus. Extending onto the WCML has limited benefit, as the bigger places already have faster trains and there will be adequate capacity with HS2 in use. Chiltern are keen to run to OOC to connect there, which is easier to engineer. And in any case the number of trains running onto the GWML will soon go up.

Of course you could say the same thing about faster trains on the GWML. However, the lack of capacity (no third pair of tracks) probably does make the value of the "full metro" solution greater. Then again, if you ignore the advantage of a through metro service out to commuterland, but ask for a good connection from outer suburban semi-fasts to your metro, extending to some interchange still looks a good idea.

The other point was that next year sees Crossrail works take over two lines on the approaches to Paddington. I can't find any publicity about when this happens, and what it does to the timetable. Unless it been changed from the original plans, this is the section from the H&C dive-under out to Ladbroke Grove, where there are only six running lines and no spare space. The loss is permanent, but later on most of the relief line services will not go this way.

But perhaps those original plans should have changed. With hindsight, you do wonder why Westbourne Park is still being built. Clearing a bit of space at OOC for something similar ought to be doable. But then modern computer-heavy engineering design and project contracting is so awfully slow and inflexible isn't it?

As planned, in the long term, the combination of the loss of those two tracks, access into Paddington off the Relief Lines being at grade, and stopping all (or nearly) trains at OOC, will impact NR's hope to push the semifasts off the Main Lines. So, of course, will any increase of the number of Crossrail services west of OOC.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on October 31, 2016, 10:25:33 am
Interesting post stuving goes to re-enforce my view Crossrail doesn't work West of Paddington.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 31, 2016, 08:19:29 pm
On the subject of terminating so many trains at Westbourne Park, and the alternatives, his opinion was that this would not be a big issue - eventually. Westbourne Park is only temporary, until Old Oak Common becomes the real terminus. Extending onto the WCML has limited benefit, as the bigger places already have faster trains and there will be adequate capacity with HS2 in use. Chiltern are keen to run to OOC to connect there, which is easier to engineer. And in any case the number of trains running onto the GWML will soon go up.

I must have missed this conversation. Is Westbourne Park being rebuilt?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: laird on October 31, 2016, 08:33:11 pm
Westbourne Park and Paddington New Yard seem to get used interchangeably.

Moving West on Crossrail it goes:
Paddington,
Royal Oak Portal
Paddington New Yard/Westbourne Park Turnback Sidings/Marcon Sidings (this is the area Charles would have been referring to as it also includes an REB and Road Rail Access Point (RRAP))
(then there is the road bridge)
Westbourne Park Auto Transformer Site
then you are in to fully Network Rail teritory


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on October 31, 2016, 08:39:57 pm
I must have missed this conversation. Is Westbourne Park being rebuilt?

Currently it (the Crossrail "catcher's mitt") is being built. But his opinion was that once OOC is a station and you want most trains to go there, there's little point turning any round "at Paddington". Whether the OOC site is actually finite, so can't find space for everything, or whether you could terminate 14 tph at platforms, remains to be seen. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on November 02, 2016, 11:02:15 am
Whether the OOC site is actually finite, so can't find space for everything, or whether you could terminate 14 tph at platforms, remains to be seen. 

There may be a lot less space for railways at OOC than we think. It appears that the mayor (or rather his predecessor) has already flogged off the site, including North Pole, and is muttering about moving the Crossrail depot somewhere else. The plans do however leave space for two new Overground stations. Lots of details including a whizzy interactive map, at https://www.london.gov.uk/about-us/organisations-we-work/old-oak-and-park-royal-development-corporation-opdc/about-opdc-0.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 14, 2016, 10:16:49 am
One half of the new crossover just east of Hayes station was installed over the weekend, and with the connections for Maidenhead loop installed a week before, work to get everything as ready as possible for the Xmas blockade is shaping up nicely.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 31, 2016, 12:59:51 am
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38471982):

Quote
Crossrail carriage passes extreme-weather tests

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/9310/production/_93184673_16cbb5d7-b702-4b55-82da-28eee4aac04e.jpg)

Extreme weather conditions have proved no match for Crossrail engineers whose train carriage has passed three weeks of rigorous testing.

Snowy, windy and foggy conditions, as well as temperatures ranging from -25C (-13F) to 40C (104F), were simulated in a climatic wind tunnel in Vienna.

In tests the front high-speed rail carriage proved itself equal to the variable British weather.

Crossrail will open in 2017 linking 40 stations in London and the South East.

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/E130/production/_93184675_crossrailelizabeth.jpg)

Named the Elizabeth Line in honour of the Queen, it is due to open in May.

Operations director Howard Smith said: "It's important that we check that the new trains can operate in anything that the changing British weather can throw at them and it won't be long before our customers will be able to get on board a train."

Weather simulations tested the heating, ventilation, air-conditioning system, windscreen wipers, demister, train horns and traction motors.

The carriage, built by Bombardier Transportation in Derby, has returned to London for night testing.




Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on December 31, 2016, 09:02:24 am
"In tests the front high-speed rail carriage proved itself equal to the variable British weather."

Buzz. Exaggeration...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on December 31, 2016, 09:12:48 am
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38471982):

Quote
Crossrail carriage passes extreme-weather tests

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/9310/production/_93184673_16cbb5d7-b702-4b55-82da-28eee4aac04e.jpg)

Extreme weather conditions have proved no match for Crossrail engineers whose train carriage has passed three weeks of rigorous testing.

Snowy, windy and foggy conditions, as well as temperatures ranging from -25C (-13F) to 40C (104F), were simulated in a climatic wind tunnel in Vienna.

In tests the front high-speed rail carriage proved itself equal to the variable British weather.

Crossrail will open in 2017 linking 40 stations in London and the South East.

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/E130/production/_93184675_crossrailelizabeth.jpg)

Named the Elizabeth Line in honour of the Queen, it is due to open in May.

Operations director Howard Smith said: "It's important that we check that the new trains can operate in anything that the changing British weather can throw at them and it won't be long before our customers will be able to get on board a train."

Weather simulations tested the heating, ventilation, air-conditioning system, windscreen wipers, demister, train horns and traction motors.

The carriage, built by Bombardier Transportation in Derby, has returned to London for night testing.




The problems will come when the trains enter the tunnels, as Eurostar found out a few years ago.  Passing the environmental temperature changes is one thing entering a warm tunnel laden with snow and ice is another


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 19, 2017, 03:25:17 pm
This should please 'CJB666'

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/01/19/crossrail-in-chaos-as-me-work-ripped-out/

Whether 'chaos', 'meltdown' and 'denial' are accurate will become clearer in time I'm sure...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on January 19, 2017, 03:40:25 pm
And wveryone is screaming for TfL to take over suburban lines as they can handle major projects.....yeah, right


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on January 19, 2017, 11:26:23 pm
This should please 'CJB666'

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/01/19/crossrail-in-chaos-as-me-work-ripped-out/

Whether 'chaos', 'meltdown' and 'denial' are accurate will become clearer in time I'm sure...

Is there an English translation for this article? M&E?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on January 20, 2017, 07:10:50 am
This should please 'CJB666'

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/01/19/crossrail-in-chaos-as-me-work-ripped-out/

Whether 'chaos', 'meltdown' and 'denial' are accurate will become clearer in time I'm sure...

Is there an English translation for this article? M&E?

M & E I assume they mean mechanical & electrical which is lifts, escalators, pumps, ventilation, aircon, fans. lighting, heating, electrical power etc

As this is one of the last major parts of the install when budgets get tight because the pervious parts the project have blown the budget often M & E items have to be reduced in scope and are stated on drawings as "future provision"


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 20, 2017, 10:04:27 am
This should please 'CJB666'

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/01/19/crossrail-in-chaos-as-me-work-ripped-out/

Whether 'chaos', 'meltdown' and 'denial' are accurate will become clearer in time I'm sure...

Is there an English translation for this article? M&E?

M & E = Mechanical and Electrical.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Noggin on January 20, 2017, 10:40:55 am
This should please 'CJB666'

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/01/19/crossrail-in-chaos-as-me-work-ripped-out/

Whether 'chaos', 'meltdown' and 'denial' are accurate will become clearer in time I'm sure...

Is there an English translation for this article? M&E?

- Someone has screwed up on the wiring plans for Crossrail
- Electricians are being laid off whilst they get to grips with it
- Completed work is having to be ripped out so that it can be started again
- The project could be delayed months whilst it's sorted out

However, there are a couple of things that make me wonder about the accuracy of this:
1) Isn't the whole Crossrail project supposed to have been computer modeled down to the last screw and bolt? can't believe that modelling wouldn't include wiring.
2) Hasn't there been a history of industrial unrest with the electricians, so maybe someone is making a mountain out a molehill?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on January 20, 2017, 04:23:11 pm
This should please 'CJB666'

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/01/19/crossrail-in-chaos-as-me-work-ripped-out/

Whether 'chaos', 'meltdown' and 'denial' are accurate will become clearer in time I'm sure...

Is there an English translation for this article? M&E?

- Someone has screwed up on the wiring plans for Crossrail
- Electricians are being laid off whilst they get to grips with it
- Completed work is having to be ripped out so that it can be started again
- The project could be delayed months whilst it's sorted out

However, there are a couple of things that make me wonder about the accuracy of this:
1) Isn't the whole Crossrail project supposed to have been computer modeled down to the last screw and bolt? can't believe that modelling wouldn't include wiring.
2) Hasn't there been a history of industrial unrest with the electricians, so maybe someone is making a mountain out a molehill?

1) yes but if the install contractor does not use LSF cable and wiring (LSF low smoke & fume) for example
2) Electricians for install work like this are at a premium high demand due to all the construction work in the London area so it can be difficult to hire in the quantity and quality needed


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Tim on January 23, 2017, 10:42:21 am


The problems will come when the trains enter the tunnels, as Eurostar found out a few years ago.  Passing the environmental temperature changes is one thing entering a warm tunnel laden with snow and ice is another

agree.  But I would hope that temperature changes are part of the tests as well.  The refrigerated chamber in the photo looks like it has IR heat lamps in the wall.  I assume that they freeze the train up then turn on the lamps to stimulate  a rapid thaw.   


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 23, 2017, 09:48:45 pm
... or indeed, to simulate a rapid thaw.  ;)



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on January 23, 2017, 10:19:02 pm
... or indeed, to simulate a rapid thaw.  ;)

I would expect - and hope - that such a test use real ice, and raise the actual temperature so the ice really melts (or thaws) to water. No simulation there. It would also be a better simulation if the air temperature could be raised very fast by in effect changing the air for new air stored outside, not by radiant heat, and I suspect any IR lamps are for some other purpose.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 23, 2017, 10:23:15 pm
Fair comment.  :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: CJB666 on January 30, 2017, 11:24:47 am
"An extensive programme of work for Crossrail was delivered on the existing railway by Network Rail over Christmas. These works included the opening of a second ramp for the Stockley Flyover at Heathrow junction and a new dive under at Acton; bringing into use an extended bay platform at Hayes & Harlington, to allow Great Eastern Railway to bring in more new electric trains; track upgrades at Maidenhead and Shenfield; and platform extension work at West Ealing, Southall and Hayes & Harlington."

Er - the bay platform 5 at Hayes as been in use for years - likely over 100 years.

Er - is Great Eastern Railway - a new franchise?

Meanwhile H&H Station remains a building site with no sign of progress for over a year. Maybe it was demolished a tad early?
 
P.S. To the moderators I wonder if its an idea to have a separate section for Crossrail?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on January 30, 2017, 11:37:55 am
"bringing into use an extended bay platform at Hayes & Harlington..."

Er - the bay platform 5 at Hayes as been in use for years - likely over 100 years.

That's not what they said, is it?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: chrisr_75 on January 30, 2017, 12:48:01 pm
"bringing into use an extended bay platform at Hayes & Harlington..."

Er - the bay platform 5 at Hayes as been in use for years - likely over 100 years.

That's not what they said, is it?

CrossRail's own press release here regarding the works completed over the Christmas period (dated Tuesday 3rd January), fairly lengthy so I won't quote it:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-works-successfully-delivered-by-network-rail-over-christmas (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-works-successfully-delivered-by-network-rail-over-christmas)

No mention of a 'Great Eastern Railway'. The quoted text from OP returns no results on Google, so I can only assume it has been paraphrased from a source other than CrossRail's own press release.

Edit - missing apostrophe


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on January 30, 2017, 01:02:57 pm
Crossrail has indeed put out an email this morning, part of which I quote below

Quote
NETWORK RAIL WORKS FOR CROSSRAIL

An extensive programme of work for Crossrail was delivered on the existing railway by Network Rail over Christmas. These works included the opening of a second ramp for the Stockley Flyover at Heathrow junction and a new dive under at Acton; bringing into use an extended bay platform at Hayes & Harlington, to allow Great Eastern Railway to bring in more new electric trains; track upgrades at Maidenhead and Shenfield; and platform extension work at West Ealing, Southall and Hayes & Harlington.

At Abbey Wood, the iconic timber roof structure for the new station has been completed. Installation of zinc lining around the timber structure is now underway and due to be complete in the spring. The design proposal for the new station building at Ilford was approved by Redbridge Council. The proposal includes a new bright, spacious building with a larger ticket hall and new lifts to provide step-free access from street to platform.

Linked to here (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/quarterly-crossrail-update/) - towards the bottom, you'll find the above quote - amended to GWR now.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on January 30, 2017, 03:52:24 pm
Yes, to the OP, it's worth remembering to add a link when quoting something. Especially so when it is criticism.  ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: tomL on January 30, 2017, 05:49:27 pm
Ah it's been a while since we've had a Crossrail/H&H rant.  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on February 13, 2017, 01:34:47 pm
the full works at Maidenhead weren't completed.

Turnback siding between Down Relief and Up Main not completed.

All stabling sidings not complete.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 13, 2017, 02:29:53 pm
The stabling sidings were not planned to be completed at Xmas, work on them will continue throughout the year.  The turnback siding was supposed to be finished, but the track wasn't laid (although signalling for it was).  No matter of course as neither facility is required yet.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 28, 2017, 11:17:45 pm
Today I came across my first reference to Crossrail increasing property prices (in a place it's not projected to reach till 2019) already. But I'm sure some of you have come across plenty.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 01, 2017, 07:41:58 am
Today I came across my first reference to Crossrail increasing property prices (in a place it's not projected to reach till 2019) already. But I'm sure some of you have come across plenty.

Yep, prices are rocketing round my way, there are already people trading in flats in areas like Ealing for houses further out on the LTV line and this is pushing up prices together with Estate Agents using Crossrail as a selling point.....quite nice for those of us who have been in the area for 15 years + and may want to cash in over the next few years..... :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 01, 2017, 01:58:47 pm
Homes Under the Hammer have mentioned it (and other rail improvements / expansions) so often that Mrs FT,N! now accepts that I am right in saying they increase prices.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on March 01, 2017, 02:29:21 pm
Big price rises forecast for Taplow and Maidenhead.

Although how all the extra commuters are supposed to get to the stations is not mentioned. Parking is currently saturated at both Taplow and Maidenhead.

Makes my house desirable as it's within 10 minutes walk of Taplow.

Added: Kept me ft for 40 years walking most days.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 01, 2017, 02:29:59 pm
This was referring to commercial property (with a tiny hint it might have some negative impact on prices in West London). Presumably a similar effect at the eastern end. With the driver being, seemingly, better links to the City rather than to eg Taplow.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 01, 2017, 06:52:31 pm
A new TfL board paper mentions it is their intention to run an increased frequency of 12 tph (approx every 5 mins) max west of Paddington, and 20 tph in the central core off-peak rather than the 16 tph previously planned:

Quote
4.1 The key elements of the revised proposal include:

(a) Off Peak services in the Central Core increased from 16 tph to 20 tph with additional services from Paddington to Shenfield and Abbey Wood;

(b) an increase in the Peak and Off Peak services West of Paddington; and

(c) a revision of the Peak services operating pattern across the network to provide a regular interval of trains, including a train approximately every five minutes proceeding west from Paddington.

4.2 The main impacts of the proposed service change are:

(a) no additional infrastructure works are required to implement the proposed service change;

(b) the proposed service change requires the procurement of four additional trains. No additional rolling stock stabling is required to support the increased fleet;

(c) the more regular service pattern will have a positive effect on operational reliability compared to the Iteration 5 timetable. The precise performance and reliability impact of the proposed timetable is being validated through joint modelling with Network Rail, as part of the timetable development process. Initial results indicate that the performance across the network will improve due to the improvement in the interval of trains;

(d) additional track access rights will be required to implement the proposal in accordance with standard industry processes;

(e) there are associated changes to Great Western Peak services that use the relief lines between Paddington and Reading. On the Great Western Route, the enhanced Elizabeth line Peak service results in a need to remove five Great Western Franchise services (in both morning and evening Peak) that are specified to operate throughout the Peak on the relief lines between Paddington and Reading with a semi fast stopping pattern. Great Western Franchise services to Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading and Thames Valley stations will continue to be provided during the Peak period by other trains which operate over the main lines between Paddington and Maidenhead;

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/16-elizabeth-line.pdf



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 01, 2017, 07:45:34 pm
I love the way TfL can say "We want four new trains", and no-one laughs.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 01, 2017, 08:05:40 pm
Thanks for posting that, Paul.  I would love to see what the revised Iteration 5 looks like.  12tph in the peak heading west would, I guess, mean 4tph to Heathrow, 2tph to Reading, 2tph to Maidenhead, 2tph to West Drayton and...what else....?!  Six to Heathrow? More to Maidenhead or Reading?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 01, 2017, 08:06:08 pm
I love the way TfL can say "We want four new trains", and no-one laughs.

And what about the way they can say "we want five semi-fast paths in each peak taken off GWR"? I imagine that will concern members of this forum more!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on March 01, 2017, 08:42:44 pm
Thanks for posting that, Paul.  I would love to see what the revised Iteration 5 looks like.  12tph in the peak heading west would, I guess, mean 4tph to Heathrow, 2tph to Reading, 2tph to Maidenhead, 2tph to West Drayton and...what else....?!  Six to Heathrow? More to Maidenhead or Reading?

Logic is a 15 minute cycle as far as West Drayton - so two more to there.  Every 15 minutes
- a train to Heathrow
- a train to Maidenhead (alternate extended to Reading)
- a train to West Drayton

But the what's going to use that shining new refreshed bay at Hayes and Harlington?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 02, 2017, 12:22:31 am
The bay platform at Hayes would need further extensive and expensive lengthening to fit a 200m Crossrail Class 345 within it.  I think it was only ever meant as a stop-gap platform for the Hayes electric service which is due to cease in May 2018, after which it will be of very limited use.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 02, 2017, 08:59:14 am
And what about the way they can say "we want five semi-fast paths in each peak taken off GWR"? I imagine that will concern members of this forum more!

Quite right. It could almost be seen as franchise amendment by stealth and / or force.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 02, 2017, 09:14:06 am
The bay platform at Hayes would need further extensive and expensive lengthening to fit a 200m Crossrail Class 345 within it.  I think it was only ever meant as a stop-gap platform for the Hayes electric service which is due to cease in May 2018, after which it will be of very limited use.

The drawings of H&H station submitted for planning purposes are marked "new platform 5 face = 237.65 m".

An odd value, you may think. I imagine it's what there is to the end of platform 4, once you close the level access from Station Approach.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 02, 2017, 09:20:22 am
It would be good if a further extension was forthcoming, if only to be able to deal with Elizabeth Line trains when there are problems further west.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 02, 2017, 09:53:24 am
And what about the way they can say "we want five semi-fast paths in each peak taken off GWR"? I imagine that will concern members of this forum more!

Quite right. It could almost be seen as franchise amendment by stealth and / or force.

Those in favour of TfL/Mayor Khan extending their influence by taking over suburban London services need to think again. This will happen wherever he gets them. They won't release additional paths for longer distance trains as they suggest in an 'agreement' either.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 02, 2017, 10:54:03 am
The drawings of H&H station submitted for planning purposes are marked "new platform 5 face = 237.65 m".

An odd value, you may think. I imagine it's what there is to the end of platform 4, once you close the level access from Station Approach.
It would be good if a further extension was forthcoming, if only to be able to deal with Elizabeth Line trains when there are problems further west.

As I meant to imply, those are the plans as approved and now being built (unless they have run out of money). Sorry if that wasn't clear. The new concourse is at road bridge level but north of the station, leading to the footbridge across the longer platform 5 track.

Platform 5 is longer than shown in the drawings with the act/bill, but then the definitive information they needed to show was the land take and work sites. The station designs came later.

What is much less clear is the status of platform 1. It's shown in the application as existing and extended, but nowhere mentioned in the words, not even the list of extension lengths nor the lighting plan. Nor is there anything to say whether it will be fenced off and unlocked only when needed. But then there is nothing to suggest that platform 2 will be fenced off either.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 02, 2017, 11:41:43 am
Thanks for posting that, Paul.  I would love to see what the revised Iteration 5 looks like. 

Iteration 6 perhaps? :-)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 02, 2017, 12:35:42 pm
As I meant to imply, those are the plans as approved and now being built (unless they have run out of money). Sorry if that wasn't clear. The new concourse is at road bridge level but north of the station, leading to the footbridge across the longer platform 5 track.

Platform 5 is longer than shown in the drawings with the act/bill, but then the definitive information they needed to show was the land take and work sites. The station designs came later.

What is much less clear is the status of platform 1. It's shown in the application as existing and extended, but nowhere mentioned in the words, not even the list of extension lengths nor the lighting plan. Nor is there anything to say whether it will be fenced off and unlocked only when needed. But then there is nothing to suggest that platform 2 will be fenced off either.

Good news about Platform 5 - I hadn't realised the concourse was moving up to the road level.  Platform 1 has already been extended and can fit in a full-length Class 345, so no need for further works there - aside from footbridge access to it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 02, 2017, 01:59:38 pm
I thought I had mentioned this somewhere before but the Signalling Scheme Plan shows Hayes and Harlington Platform No.5 as having a useable length of 218m.  Other useable platform lengths are: P1=234m; P2=242m; P3=220m and P4=230m.

Health Warning: The Signalling Scheme Plan is dated June 2011


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: didcotdean on March 02, 2017, 03:15:37 pm
I love the way TfL can say "We want four new trains", and no-one laughs.

And what about the way they can say "we want five semi-fast paths in each peak taken off GWR"? I imagine that will concern members of this forum more!
I wouldn't be surprised if the longer term aim of TfL is to have all the relief line passenger train paths east of Maidenhead.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 02, 2017, 03:45:49 pm
Oh, I'm sure it is. Isn't that what their track access agreement gives them?

Eventually, to Reading maybe too!

And anyone West of London is disenfranchised anout it too, as they have no vote on the Mayor! Same as those in Amersham on the Met, who can't complain/influence TfL either.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 02, 2017, 04:15:21 pm
Oh, I'm sure it is. Isn't that what their track access agreement gives them?

I don't think it does.  I think it will give other operators (i.e. GWR) the right to two off-peak paths an hour, as well as the peak paths and with freight fitting in the mix too.  That's not to say it might change over time though, as per this proposal we've been discussing since yesterday to take some/all of the peak paths on the relief lines from GWR.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 02, 2017, 04:43:10 pm
Note that the new track layout at Maidenhead is arranged so that Eastbound Relief Line services can terminate in Platforms No.4 or 5 and return West therefrom, so watch this space ;) ::) :o


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on March 02, 2017, 04:53:27 pm
Note that the new track layout at Maidenhead is arranged so that Eastbound Relief Line services can terminate in Platforms No.4 or 5 and return West therefrom, so watch this space ;) ::) :o


They can also turnround from the East in Platform 2 Up Main but only from the Down Main back onto the Up. There is a stop signal at the West end of the platform 2,


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on March 02, 2017, 04:58:51 pm
Seeing the comments re Crossrail taking over the relief lines my frequent comment that Crossrail does not work West of Padd seems to be coming true.


So I'll do another HS2 won't work at least as intended.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 02, 2017, 05:11:50 pm
They can also turnround from the East in Platform 2 Up Main but only from the Down Main back onto the Up. There is a stop signal at the West end of the platform 2.
That facility is mainly for Crossrail to be able to turnback at Maidenhead in the event of the Relief Lines to the East being closed. Won't do the GWR main line services much good if it is used though :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 02, 2017, 06:23:55 pm
IIRC when the Crossrail timetable was being developed, electrification stopped at Maidenhead, and FGW would still be running DMUs on all local stoppers across the Reading area.   

Times change, and GWR now has 110 mph capable EMUs that will potentially be running at twelve car length in the peaks. 

Just like on the WCML to Milton Keynes it will presumably be possible to flight a few of these per hour in between 125 mph services as far as Reading.

The overall timetable isn't set in stone circa 2005...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 02, 2017, 07:05:49 pm
I didn't think there were any spare paths in the peaks currently?

So if they were to fly sny EMUs along the mains, something else has to give?
When does the HEX contract finish?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 02, 2017, 07:53:43 pm
I didn't think there were any spare paths in the peaks currently?

So if they were to fly sny EMUs along the mains, something else has to give?
When does the HEX contract finish?

Currently, peak "semi-fasts" (whatever that means in this context) use both mains and reliefs, some stopping on the mains and some switching. The extra time (or paths) on the mains that occupies is largely provided by HEX services, which leave unused paths further out than Airport Junction. But I've never counted up exactly how many there are of each kind, so can't say if five relief paths could be "donated" to Crossrail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 02, 2017, 07:57:58 pm
Crossrail's current Track Access Option is, I think this one dated 2014 (http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/14844/crossrail-track-access-option-restated.pdf). It specifies, in part, as services into London:

From Paddington only: 8 tph all day plus 13 morning peak (for information - no access needed)
From Heathrow:         4 tph all day
From Maidenhead:      2 tph all day plus 6 morning peak
From West Drayton: none off-peak plus 6 morning peak

The morning peak is 7-10, and off-peak (called "inter-peak") is 10-16 and 19-21, timed at Tottenham Court Road.

Note that that does not even add up to the declared totals.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on March 03, 2017, 10:35:09 am
The peak semi-fasts will be (were to be) regarded as the GWR Ealing, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, Tilehurst.... services. It looks as if crossrail are suggesting to remove altogether this halfhourly service in the peak in favour of more services for them. They are saying Maidenhead and Twyford pax can use the already planned faster mainline services, as for those heading westwards to/from Ealing or wishing for a faster service to Slough, tough.

Wouldn't have thought there are more paths available on the main than what was already planned.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 03, 2017, 12:58:04 pm
The peak semi-fasts will be (were to be) regarded as the GWR Ealing, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, Tilehurst.... services. It looks as if crossrail are suggesting to remove altogether this halfhourly service in the peak in favour of more services for them. They are saying Maidenhead and Twyford pax can use the already planned faster mainline services, as for those heading westwards to/from Ealing or wishing for a faster service to Slough, tough.

Wouldn't have thought there are more paths available on the main than what was already planned.

I would suggest that there are further implications. By my reading the document implies that no GWR trains will use the Relief lines, certainly in the peaks and most likely also off-peak. If this is to be the case then passengers making through journeys from Oxford and the Thames Valley line stations as far as Reading will be forced to change trains at Reading to reach stations east of Reading.

This does not seem like a customer-friendly act - but then again TfL has no interest in events outside its boundary.

In addition GWR has made agreements to lease Class 387 trains to operate these semi-fast services between reading and London - if this proposal is accepted then I trust that TfL will pay the leasing costs for the no longer needed trains.

There is also no mention of freight traffic. As has already been mentioned this stretch of the Western is home to the heaviest freight trains in the country as well as container, car carrier and rubbish trains. They can't all operate at night as TfL will doubtless require that Network Rail keeps the track in good order...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: lordgoata on March 03, 2017, 01:16:25 pm
If this is to be the case then passengers making through journeys from Oxford and the Thames Valley line stations as far as Reading will be forced to change trains at Reading to reach stations east of Reading.

This does not seem like a customer-friendly act - but then again TfL has no interest in events outside its boundary.

That's been my fear since Crossrail extending to Reading was mentioned.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 07, 2017, 09:21:34 pm
Interesting read here: http://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/one-of-the-family-crossrails-transition-to-being-a-tube/


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: tom m on March 07, 2017, 10:40:57 pm
Thanks for posting, very interesting. I can't imagine HEX are going to be very happy about running on the relief lines.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 07, 2017, 11:12:01 pm
Thanks for posting, very interesting. I can't imagine HEX are going to be very happy about running on the relief lines.

They aren't, but then AFAIK they aren't going to (though they might have to later on). I think he's misread that service pattern, as also in assuming the Henley and Bourne End through services would overlap with Crossrail. They are due to stop in SLC2, i.e. this May, though the Henley ones now have a reprieve due to the lack of you-know-Watts.

So while he's no doubt right about what TfL want to do, he's added 2 and 2 from evidence to get 6 as the current plan.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 08, 2017, 07:37:20 am
Yes, an entertaining and informative article but there were a few errors and omissions in it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 08, 2017, 09:24:00 am
Here's the mid 2020s proposal from the 2011 London and SE RUS executive summary:

Quote
With respect to Heathrow Airport services the
emerging position is that providing a 10 trains
per hour Crossrail route service from central
London would provide an overall improvement in
connectivity relative to commited schemes only, and
is likely to become necessary by the mid 2020s to
facilitate the additional peak Thames Valley services
described above. At peak times the airport services
would need to operate on the relief lines with
increased journey times from London Paddington
station itself (compared to the current Heathrow
Express), but the additional Crossrail services would
more than double the planned frequency and avoid
passengers needing to choose between Heathrow
Express and Crossrail on arrival at Paddington
station. This would therefore involve 16 trains per
hour at peak times from the Great Western route
into the new central London tunnel, compared to
10 trains per hour under current plans. This would
fully utilise all relief line capacity at peak times, so
freight operations would need to be outside the
high peak hours.

Note that they are suggesting there that the HEx replacement by Crossrail would run on the reliefs only in the peaks.   The same document also does mention in option A5 that there will be 4 fast EMUs per hour running on the mains east of Reading in the peaks, covering calls at Slough, Twyford and Maidenhead.

In fact reading it again, 6 years from publication, hardly anything being proposed recently is actually new...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 08, 2017, 09:59:32 am
Here's the mid 2020s proposal from the 2011 London and SE RUS executive summary:
[...]
Note that they are suggesting there that the HEx replacement by Crossrail would run on the reliefs only in the peaks.   The same document also does mention in option A5 that there will be 4 fast EMUs per hour running on the mains east of Reading in the peaks, covering calls at Slough, Twyford and Maidenhead.

In fact reading it again, 6 years from publication, hardly anything being proposed recently is actually new...

Paul

The Western Route Study, more recently, does take a step further in that NR now want those four tph for long-distance services all day, not just in the peaks. They don't mention HEx by name, but do point out its track access agreement runs out in 2023. For NR, whether they continue or are replaced by Crossrail is unimportant - just so long as they get off the Mains Lines (but of course don't fill the Relief Lines to the exclusion of goods trains).

They claim TfL's support for this, though the bit they quote is really talking about these four trains going down the 'ole, not to Paddington High level.
Quote
Capability analysis identifies that eight passenger services per
hour could be accommodated on the existing Relief Line
infrastructure; subject to further assessment. Analysis provided
by Transport for London shows that there would be a positive
Generalised Journey Time (GJT) impact for passengers travelling
between points east of London Paddington and Heathrow
Airport who currently use the London Underground network to
reach London Paddington. There would be a small negative GJT
impact for those who continue to interchange at Paddington
Station with other modes, e.g. walk and taxi.

HAL have a different view (surprise!). Roughly it's that their business customers can't be expected to slum it in Crossrail's cattle trucks, they need what is in effect an all-first-class train to a taxi in central London. their supporting arguments are, of course, rather different:
Quote
• Analysis provided by Heathrow Airport Limited shows the
following potential impacts:
– Mode share – analysis shows that a combination of express
and Relief Line services provides the highest rail and overall
public transport mode share. Removal of the fast services
could increase car trips to and from the airport and related
emissions
– Passenger experience – passengers value the speed and
reliability of the current express service. Removing this will
reduce passenger experience and reduce choice for travelling
to Heathrow Airport by rail
– Resilience – a mix of services by different operators could offer
better resilience and ensures that the airport can continue to
provide public transport alternatives during times of
disruption due to incidents, maintenance or industrial action
– Economic value – Heathrow Airport is an important asset and
engine for growth generating jobs and global opportunities.
Business passengers from both the UK and abroad
particularly value the express service, with two thirds of its
passengers travelling on business.

And there the argument rests, until someone (probably the minister) decides something.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 08, 2017, 10:05:46 am
Here's the mid 2020s proposal from the 2011 London and SE RUS executive summary:

Surely the Western Route Study superceded this?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 08, 2017, 10:19:00 am
I think the key point being made in the LR document is that they see the Elizabeth Line very much like a tube line, running all day as a turn up and go railway (i.e. in theory you don't need a timetable to use it) with no peak/off peak differentation.  How Heathrow Express fits into all of that is really a bit of a side show at the moment.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 08, 2017, 10:24:57 am
Here's the mid 2020s proposal from the 2011 London and SE RUS executive summary:

Surely the Western Route Study superceded this?

Yes, in that it's dated 2015 (see above - I sneaked in before you). But while it's newer, it isn't a single self-consistent replacement. In part this is covered by labelling the future plans "options", but the degree of incompatibility isn't spelled out.

So, as well as wanting to push all Heathrow trains onto the Reliefs, NR also talk about doing the same with the semi-fasts, meaning anything that stops inside Reading. Obviously that's not the same future that TfL are presuming.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oxonhutch on March 08, 2017, 01:10:03 pm
Reading the article (which has been revised by the author [PoP] after correcting comments) the HEx services are not to be forced onto the Reliefs but still accommodated on the Mains.  That is good news for the TV semi-fasts as they provided stopping paths on the Mains at either Twyford or Maidenhead - for stopping patterns see one on the comments posted today (8/3/17). These articles tend to get written by those in the know and quite close (in past lives) to the heart of government - not withstanding that they are personal opinions, I weigh them quite seriously.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on March 08, 2017, 07:24:35 pm
These articles tend to get written by those in the know and quite close (in past lives) to the heart of government - not withstanding that they are personal opinions, I weigh them quite seriously.

Sometimes, it isn't just what is being said that matters, but who is saying it.

Take my utterances with a pinch of salt.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Oxonhutch on March 08, 2017, 08:35:57 pm
Take my utterances with a pinch of salt.

If you are sitting in seat 0A, and I can hear you, I will take your utterances very seriously!  :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 09, 2017, 08:53:37 am
Here's the mid 2020s proposal from the 2011 London and SE RUS executive summary:

Surely the Western Route Study superceded this?

It is an iterative process agreed, but I was really only trying to highlight that the debate about Paddington to Stockley track usage is not something that only TfL have raised this month...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Tim on March 09, 2017, 09:30:55 am
How Heathrow Express fits into all of that is really a bit of a side show at the moment.

I agree.  As I understand it HEx only has access rights until sometime in the 2020s.  After that I think it would be open to NR/Government/ORR/someone to allocate HEx paths to someone else. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on March 09, 2017, 10:02:32 am
What about the very vague proposals for a 6 track railway from Padd tp Slough or at least in parts.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 09, 2017, 10:12:21 am
What about the very vague proposals for a 6 track railway from Padd tp Slough or at least in parts.

There is a fifth track in places, but I don't think I've seen much more proposed. But I'm sure it's clear now that the Crossrail tunnel ought to run to OOC, and that was clear (to those who built it) before they had finished digging it. There is quite a lot of lineside land much of the way to Stockley, which is the important bit, but with some tricky bits. Ealing Broadway would have to be rebuilt, and any station further out you want to stop semifasts at (e.g. Slough) needs a fast through bypass rather than six tracks in between.

The choice of bored tunnel for WRAtH was based on the idea that once your megamole is down its hole and scrabbling away it's cheaper to keep going than to surface and build two bridges, under the M4 and A4. The same logic is being applied to HS2, and if applied to Crossrail it would have ended up differently.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 09, 2017, 10:24:51 am
All of this squabbling over track capacity is really a symptom of something that's been known far longer - two track pairs just isn't enough. "A Railway Plan for London" in 1965 includes a section of the "1949 London Plan Working Party Report" called "Essentials of Practical Railway Plan". This spells out that what it labels an "urban type service" and an "outer suburban type service" can't sensibly operate over the same pair of tracks. As it's about London it isn't concerned about high-speed long distance services, but we know now (and did in 1965) they can't share with either if you want the maximum capacity. Put another way, adding a service of the "wrong" type to a track pair takes out more than one path.

In 1965, the priority was to increase the "outer suburban" service without disrupting the long distance one, and their proposal was to scrap the stopping service to Hayes, closing Acton, West Ealing, Hanwell and Southall stations. It says as justification, "traffic on the short-distance service to Hayes is small and is not rising"; and "The traffic potential of this service is too small to warrant replacement by a London Underground service. Preliminary examination suggests that an experss bus service between Hayes and a railhead at Ealing Broadway might be capable of meeting the need."

That report is in the Railways Archive (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRLT_RailwayPlanForLondon1965.pdf) - it's scanned off a poor printed copy, so hard to reproduce here.  It does have traffic numbers for London commuters which make an interesting comparison with the last London and South East RUS. So does their estimate of the capacity of a track pair: for "urban type" (i.e. metro) service 40 tph, and for "outer suburban" 25 tph. How many lines can do that now?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 09, 2017, 11:06:10 am
Wharncliffe and Hanwell viaducts would also be very significant obstacles to a 6-track railway as well as those that have been mentioned.  Can't see it ever happening in a traditional 6-track sense.  A more likely (but still unlikely) way forward would be a tunnelled separate High Speed route from
London to a significant way out.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 09, 2017, 12:09:40 pm
So does their estimate of the capacity of a track pair: for "urban type" (i.e. metro) service 40 tph, and for "outer suburban" 25 tph. How many lines can do that now?

If they are talking about 2 way capacity (as is sometimes the case), then quite a few?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 09, 2017, 12:31:19 pm
So does their estimate of the capacity of a track pair: for "urban type" (i.e. metro) service 40 tph, and for "outer suburban" 25 tph. How many lines can do that now?

If they are talking about 2 way capacity (as is sometimes the case), then quite a few?

Paul

That would make the numbers too low, wouldn't it? And while the meaning isn't stated in plain words there, other places do contain references to 24 tph as a standard figure each way for one BR track pair. For example, it states with impressive certainty that one track pair delivering 24 tph into a terminus needs just 4 platforms.

The fast lines at Waterloo are, according to NR, capable of running at 2 minutes headway = 30 tph as a maximum, though with one every half hour left blank for recovery. However, I don't think it's ever been done even for the "busy hour", and as to whether humans could construct such a timetable, let alone operate to it, ...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on March 09, 2017, 03:34:44 pm
Quote
The fast lines at Waterloo are, according to NR, capable of running at 2 minutes headway = 30 tph as a maximum, though with one every half hour left blank for recovery. However, I don't think it's ever been done even for the "busy hour", and as to whether humans could construct such a timetable, let alone operate to it ...

....they tried in 1967 on the South Eastern at Charing Cross/Cannon Street/London Bridge and it was an outstanding....... :o ::) :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 12, 2017, 03:39:55 pm
Wharncliffe and Hanwell viaducts would also be very significant obstacles to a 6-track railway as well as those that have been mentioned.  Can't see it ever happening in a traditional 6-track sense.  A more likely (but still unlikely) way forward would be a tunnelled separate High Speed route from
London to a significant way out.

Isn't it cheaper to raise the tracks/cf on stilts for sxample, than tunnel? Far easier too?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 12, 2017, 06:00:31 pm
Quite possibly cheaper but I would think that method would be very difficult to bring to fruition, as it would be very hard to get the various planning consents needed.  Also, with a tunnel you can go pretty much what route you please without having to choose an alignment that fits in with all the various existing buildings and topography above ground which makes suburban London so difficult.  Hence HS2 finally deciding on tunnelling out as far as Ruislip which is the equivalent distance to West Drayton on the GWML.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 14, 2017, 11:40:11 am
Quite possibly cheaper but I would think that method would be very difficult to bring to fruition, as it would be very hard to get the various planning consents needed.  Also, with a tunnel you can go pretty much what route you please without having to choose an alignment that fits in with all the various existing buildings and topography above ground which makes suburban London so difficult.  Hence HS2 finally deciding on tunnelling out as far as Ruislip which is the equivalent distance to West Drayton on the GWML.

I would argue that if TfL wants to increase the frequency of Crossrail trains in London then it should do that in a manner which does not disadvantage other users of public transport - many of whom will be well out of TfL's area. The corollary is that it should build its own dedicated tracks. Taking up IndustryInsider's point about tunnelling enabling one to build the route that one pleases then I would suggest Crossrail could build a swoop to the north of the GW route through Greenford, Yeading, Hillingdon, Cowley/Uxbridge, Iver Heath, Wexham then cross under the GW main line at Slough and terminate at Windsor Central.

Windsor is quite far enough to travel on what is essentially a tube train and these other areas would get a much more direct and faster link to the centre of London!

This would leave the GW able to run a semi-fast/stopping service on the Relief lines more suitable for the areas out to Oxford and Newbury and also leave space for the freight trains. It would also mean the Crossrail trains won't get in the way of the additional trains serving Heathrow using the proposed Western Approaches.

What's not to like?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 14, 2017, 11:47:08 am
London tax-payers would be funding the tunnelling outside London? Oohh, can't have that!

While TfL will happily take over lines outwith their jurisdiction free of charge, they won't allow their tax-payers to fund projects outside their area, oh no!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on March 21, 2017, 08:30:05 am
Rumour has it switch on Stockley Jn to Maidenhead this Sunday 26/3.

I'll be off down to Taplow to hug the footbridge.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on March 28, 2017, 02:09:59 pm
Quote
3) Stabling sidings:

I noticed these whilst whizzing through Maidenhead yesterday.

It looks like there are 4 or 5 sidings .....is this all going to be needed, bearing in mind that Crossrail will now go to Reading, and presumably 387's will only terminate/turn-around at Maidenhead until they start to be used on services further west?



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 28, 2017, 02:29:16 pm
Quote
3) Stabling sidings:

I noticed these whilst whizzing through Maidenhead yesterday.

It looks like there are 4 or 5 sidings .....is this all going to be needed, bearing in mind that Crossrail will now go to Reading, and presumably 387's will only terminate/turn-around at Maidenhead until they start to be used on services further west?

I'm dubious of the logic that suggests.

Trains usually turn at platform if they can, and would only go to a siding for a longer wait or if space is really short (as may be true at Reading before long). Where you want to start and end peak-only diagrams is, I suspect, quite a complicated matter.

Most trains start from wherever they live, not usually a passenger hub, and travel to their start point ECS. Maidenhead would be better than that for any start point into London other than Reading: Maidenhead, Slough, West Drayton, or even further east. So why not, if the land's already lined up? I don't think there's much space, if any, for Crossrail at Reading.

In any case, the notion that you mustn't have a siding unless it's used every night is the kind of thing that gets today's railway planners (and the accountants and other lurking behind them) a bad name.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 28, 2017, 03:21:47 pm
Six sidings to be used for overnight stabling/cleaning.  I imagine they'll be used for the early services in from Reading or Maidenhead.  Whether all six will be in regular use, who knows, but stabling space is at a premium with the number of additional carriages being brought in and I doubt they'll be room for many 9-car trains at Reading.  Daytime trains should used the platforms or turn back siding at Maidenhead most of the time I'd have thought.

[mods: perhaps these discussions should be moved to the Crossrail thread?]


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on March 28, 2017, 07:59:55 pm
Thanks for the replies, guess I'm not as much of an expert on railway ops as I think I am  ;)

Having said that there were quite a few 387's parked up at West Ealing (I think it is, outside Plasser's) when I passed yesterday, maybe Maidenhead will be a better stabling home for them?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 28, 2017, 08:11:24 pm
No offence, but what have the number of sidings at Maidenhead for Crossrail etc got to do with infrastructure problems causing delays? Shouldn't this be on another thread?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on March 29, 2017, 01:51:17 pm
Does anyone know of a link to a finalised track layout for Maidenhead?   

I do have a diagram downloaded from the ORR site a few years ago, but I reckon it is now overtaken by events, such as not building a new platform for the branch...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 29, 2017, 05:31:05 pm
[mods: perhaps these discussions should be moved to the Crossrail thread?]

Shouldn't this be on another thread?

Now done.  CfN.  ;)



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 10, 2017, 10:01:20 pm
Three noteworthy items:

1) The track for the Maidenhead Turnback Siding was laid over the weekend.  To be ballasted, tamped and commissioned over next weekend presumably?

2) The extended part of Platform 12 at Paddington, what will be the widened old Platform 13, has had canopy support structures installed out to what will be the platform edge, so there will be full canopy coverage.  I remember somebody asking the question a while back.

3) Island platform extensions at Hayes, Southall, West Ealing and Acton Main Line are now being constructed, in readiness for 9-car trains from May 2018.  Other locations and platforms that need extensions look likely to be started on imminently.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 02, 2017, 11:36:22 am
The turnback siding and remaining four stabling sidings at Maidenhead were commissioned over the weekend - as can be seen by the pretty red lights on the OpenTrainTimes map.

Only available for emergency use until the walkways and other furnishings are finished in a few weeks.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 02, 2017, 02:45:08 pm
The turnbuckles siding and remaining four stabling sidings at Maidenhead were commissioned over the weekend - as can be seen by the pretty red lights on the OpenTrainTimes map.

Only available for emergency use until the walkways and other furnishings are finished in a few weeks.
...love the new name for a turnback siding.... ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 02, 2017, 03:19:41 pm
Crickey, I've done a ChrisB...  ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 21, 2017, 12:09:26 pm
From The Times (subscription-based) (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8ef44)

  Extracts:
 
 
Quote
The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge” of £570 for every train that uses the track,
 plus extra fees of about £107 per train.
 
 Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
 such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
 Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.
 
 A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
 challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
 plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
 few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
 other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
 central London, dodging the £700 fees.
 
 Called the Elizabeth line, London’s newest route was funded by taxpayers
 and businesses in the capital and is due to carry 200m people a year. Four
 Crossrail trains an hour will start running between Paddington and Heathrow
 from next May — though not to Terminal 5 as the Heathrow Express has an
 exclusive deal to run services there until 2023.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on May 21, 2017, 02:34:07 pm
From The Times (subscription-based) (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8ef44)

  Extracts:
 
 
Quote
The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge” of £570 for every train that uses the track,
 plus extra fees of about £107 per train.
 
 
Current ticket costs are £6.30 per single journey (£12.60 return) from Hayes and Harlington to Heathrow - that's a journey of just under 3 miles as the crow flies, or £2.10 per mile.  I think that already includes an airport owner's fee.

For comparison, and again with heavy engineering, Saltash to Plymouth is £3.20 return - though the fares database says "TEMPORARY FARE From Sun 21 May 2017 until Sat 15 Jul 2017" against that.  The journey is just under 4 miles, so you're looking at £0.40 per mile.

There's a suggestion that when(if?) the western access to Heathrow is completed, trains from London will run to Heathrow with some carrying on, rather than everything terminating at the airport.  If that's the case, what are the plans for through fares?   Will there be extra cost for travelling via Heathrow?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on May 21, 2017, 03:26:21 pm

 
Current ticket costs are £6.30 per single journey (£12.60 return) from Hayes and Harlington to Heathrow - that's a journey of just under 3 miles as the crow flies, or £2.10 per mile.  I think that already includes an airport owner's fee.

For comparison, and again with heavy engineering, Saltash to Plymouth is £3.20 return - though the fares database says "TEMPORARY FARE From Sun 21 May 2017 until Sat 15 Jul 2017" against that.  The journey is just under 4 miles, so you're looking at £0.40 per mile.

There's a suggestion that when(if?) the western access to Heathrow is completed, trains from London will run to Heathrow with some carrying on, rather than everything terminating at the airport.  If that's the case, what are the plans for through fares?   Will there be extra cost for travelling via Heathrow?


Yes, the current fare includes the premium to cover the airport fee.

It would make a lot of sense if once the western access is completed that the four trains that will replace Connect run straight through to Slough and beyond. (With a shuttle running to T4). Else you have a lot of terminating movements and thus inefficiency. Though I doubt many pax on the main line would choose to go that way out of choice given the extra 15 mins or so it would add.

The alternative would be for the four HEx paths to continue on to Slough, with the former Connect services running to T4 as now. Though as has been debated often, (so maybe not one to reignite here) whether HEx is sustainable post Crossrail and once its 4 paths on the main line are no longer protected is uncertain.  One way or another though I would still expect 4 fast trains of some description to run from Paddington (low or high level) to the airport.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 21, 2017, 03:40:41 pm
It would make a lot of sense if once the western access is completed that the four trains that will replace Connect run straight through to Slough and beyond.

That won't happen - Hex have Terminal 5 access rights until 2023.
Also, the article above means that Crossrail have no access to Heathrow until they can sort this problem out - indeed, they would appear to have chosen somewhere on the mainline to terminate & return according to a thread on uk.railways forum. Those fees quoted in that article being ridiculously high.

Quote
The alternative would be for the four HEx paths to continue on to Slough

That is possible, though I agree with your thoughts surrounding HEX after their access rights to paths on the GWML run out.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 21, 2017, 03:56:59 pm
It would make a lot of sense if once the western access is completed that the four trains that will replace Connect run straight through to Slough and beyond.

That won't happen - Hex have Terminal 5 access rights until 2023.
Also, the article above means that Crossrail have no access to Heathrow until they can sort this problem out - indeed, they would appear to have chosen somewhere on the mainline to terminate & return according to a thread on uk.railways forum. Those fees quoted in that article being ridiculously high.

The western access won't be opening until after 2023.

Regarding the Crossrail issue, I personally think some form of deal will be struck.  Heathrow is too important politically as a destination for Crossrail for TfL just to settle for some kind of compromise in terms of destination.  Though it might well not serve Terminal 5.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on May 21, 2017, 05:09:28 pm
It would make a lot of sense if once the western access is completed that the four trains that will replace Connect run straight through to Slough and beyond.

That won't happen - Hex have Terminal 5 access rights until 2023.


Do you mean exclusive rights?  If not then there is plenty of room for another four with the space left available for new platforms. And even if they are exclusive rights then the airport could always agree to waive them as they own Hex if they felt that the benefit to be gained by allowing the Western services to run straight through outweighed the impact on HEx.

Two final points from me.  Clearly the more the airport charges to Crossrail, the more Crossrail has to charge pax and thus the premium to use HEx will be lower (and thus more pax will choose to use it).  Sounds a bit like a monopoly to me, if it is not a fair cost, which is I guess what the courts will decide.  And don't forget that the airport still has a job to do to get it's third runway. So they will need to a) be seen to be encouraging rail use over road to keep overall emissions down and b) avoid any major PR gaffs.  For those reasons it really isn't in their interests to dig their heels in over this fight.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on May 21, 2017, 05:59:45 pm
My understanding of the Western approach is its the Airport that is funding the new line.  The Airport's plan is to run HEX Express Padd - LHR- RDG dispite what the Burger's (and I don't mean McieDee either) o Slough want the HEX Expresses are unlikely to stop.

Its all posturing by the commercial people

I am sure that the Airport will give way to a certain extent because there rights to platform 6 & 7 at Padd expires in a few years and they could find themselves expelled to 10 to 14 the Intercity TOC (ie GWR) have always craved having 6 & 7 back.  also they will not want to loose out to the lucrative Canary Warf passengers that currently use London City




Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on May 22, 2017, 01:15:07 am
Even so, 4 tph paying £700 each over a working day amounts to a pretty penny, even for somewhere as rich as Heathrow. That said, if the judge finds for Crossrail, I can see Heathrow deciding against an appeal. It took a long time to lose the "Thiefrow" soubriquet - they don't want that revived for different reasons than last time.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 22, 2017, 08:48:14 am
It would make a lot of sense if once the western access is completed that the four trains that will replace Connect run straight through to Slough and beyond.

That won't happen - Hex have Terminal 5 access rights until 2023.


Do you mean exclusive rights? 

Yep. Built by Heathrow Airport, they own the tunnels - they're not part of the public railway.

if they are exclusive rights then the airport could always agree to waive them as they own Hex if they felt that the benefit to be gained by allowing the Western services to run straight through outweighed the impact on HEx.[/quote]

Why wouldn't they want these rights for their Hex services? And as they'd be running onto public-owned railway, apply for their own access paths?

Quote
Two final points from me.  Clearly the more the airport charges to Crossrail, the more Crossrail has to charge pax and thus the premium to use HEx will be lower (and thus more pax will choose to use it). 

eh? The charges to use the tunnels (not Hex as such) IS the premium - so high charges = high premiums.

Quote
Sounds a bit like a monopoly to me, if it is not a fair cost, which is I guess what the courts will decide.

There's nothing to prevent owners of private infrastructure charging what they want....and they do have build costs that need recouping.

Quote
And don't forget that the airport still has a job to do to get it's third runway.

indeed, a way out of this would be for the Government to require that the tunnels are available to all services at a set fair cost in return for agreeing a third runway.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on May 22, 2017, 11:15:58 am
There is a lot of stuff you can read if you want to find out what the argument's about. The ORR's page on this subject (http://www.orr.gov.uk/rail/consultations/closed-consultations/policy-consultations/charging-framework-consultation) has links to their consultation document (March 2016), all the responses, and their consequent ruling (May 2016). The important items are ORR's two, and the submissions from DfT, TfL, and HAL.

But be warned - the legal content of these is pretty chewy.

As far as I can see, the current law applies to all railway owners and train operators irrespective of who they are, public or private, though subject to some tests as to what counts as a railway. ORR can dictate access and charges, and all of that seems to have been accepted. What HAL want, though, is for Crossrail trains to pay an extra (and it seems rather large) sum to pay off the original construction costs. There are rules about that as well, one of which is that if the original plan said where that repayment came from, the owners can't demand the same money again from a new user.

There are (surprise, surprise!) further complications. The rules (i.e. the laws) have changed more than once, and the government at one stage gave HAL a perpetual exemption from something or other. Of course in reality HAL don't have a whole railway at all; it's only useable with rights to run to Paddington - which they have until 2023. (I imagine that's also when their capital repayment plan ends, in theory.) So the rules and exemption apply differently for trains that don't go to Paddington.

ORR expects to be shown evidence about costs to be charged for, and for any capital recovery too. But the construction of the railway under Heathrow was planned jointly with BR, then the joint company was bought out by HAL (as it is now), which was going to borrow the money. In the end, HAL paid for it out of revenue, and seems to have lost the bills. Of course it never was built as a money-making exercise for HAL (whatever they may say in court), it is one of many things they built to make the airport attractive to their (direct and indirect) customers.

I suspect Heathrow's owners are trying to screw all they can out of the asset while they can get away with it - that is their general approach to running the airport (if it can be called "theirs", given the debt against it). They do not seem to have any allies, at least in the railway business. RDG didn't comment on the Heathrow case at all, but did argue for "a whole-network approach to the charging framework" - i.e. in their narrow interests as TOCs, rather than as part of the bigger "companies running privatised services" sector. 

Obviously in the end it will be settled - no-one's got a whole train set otherwise. And this may be more a a test case, to see what this law does, and much less antagonistic than it looks. After all, courts can set the level of compensation for what a government has done, but can't really restrict what a new government does in the future (as no parliament can bind another future one).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on May 22, 2017, 05:34:01 pm
There is also a document published by Heathrow Airports Limited, Heathrow Network Statement - Rail dated June 2015 which can be found here http://www.heathrow.com/file_source/Company/Static/PDF/Companynewsandin
formation/rail-network-statement-june15.pdf (http://www.heathrow.com/file_source/Company/Static/PDF/Companynewsandin
formation/rail-network-statement-june15.pdf).

Paragraph 6.1.5 gives the access charges currently paid by Heathrow Connect which can be seen to be very close to the charges proposed for Crossrail. Essentially they are based on flat rate of £11,400 per day, so 16 trains per hour pay £712 per train and 24 trains per hour pay £475 per train.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: rogerw on May 26, 2017, 12:14:57 pm
New Civil Engineer reports that Heathrow have lost the court case. No further details are yet available


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on May 26, 2017, 12:58:57 pm
New Civil Engineer reports that Heathrow have lost the court case. No further details are yet available


BBC version of the story here, which suggests access will be completely free?   I expect that's the usual slipshod BBC reporting...

Quote
Heathrow cannot charge Crossrail for using its track to travel to the airport, a High Court judge has ruled.
The airport spent £1bn building the five-mile line 20 years ago to connect the hub to the Great Western track.
The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) previously decided Heathrow could not charge trains for using the line, which it said would cost about £42m a year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40059659

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on May 26, 2017, 01:21:50 pm
Another nail in the coffin of HEx. Crossrail will be competitive enough to make the premium express service much less attractive.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 26, 2017, 01:38:39 pm
I sispect that means no *additional* fees over what Connect are being currebtly charged.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on May 26, 2017, 04:15:07 pm
I sispect that means no *additional* fees over what Connect are being currebtly charged.

I thought that was obvious from the story so far, and would be obvious even to the BBC.   However they gave exactly the same mistaken explanation when the story recently re-appeared, so I guess the BBC never understood the main thrust of the arguments in the first place...

 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on May 26, 2017, 05:17:34 pm
I sispect that means no *additional* fees over what Connect are being currebtly charged.
I'm not sure the fees that Connect are currently charged are relevant, particularly given its ownership status. What's happened today is that the Court has thrown out the application for a judicial review. So the ORR ruling still stands, which means the vast majority of what HAL wanted to charge they cannot.

It's the investment recovery charge of 460 per movement which can't be charged. You can make your own guess as to how much that might relate to on a ticket given average numbers expected on the Heathrow part of the Crossrail services. 



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on May 27, 2017, 01:16:56 am
I sispect that means no *additional* fees over what Connect are being currebtly charged.
I'm not sure the fees that Connect are currently charged are relevant, particularly given its ownership status. What's happened today is that the Court has thrown out the application for a judicial review. So the ORR ruling still stands, which means the vast majority of what HAL wanted to charge they cannot.

It's the investment recovery charge of 460 per movement which can't be charged. You can make your own guess as to how much that might relate to on a ticket given average numbers expected on the Heathrow part of the Crossrail services. 

That's right. HAL can charge for their actual costs in running the infrastructure, which they must justify to ORR with evidence. I'm not sure whether ORR have approved that charge at the level proposed by HAL, but they will be reviewing it each year anyway. I note that HAL's network statement has disappeared.

The ORR decision, confirmed by the high court, denies HAL the right to charge for "historical long-term costs". That bit of the regulations does look very strict, in that it says such costs (in this case the cost of building the spur) can only be recovered in access charges if "the project could not otherwise have been undertaken without the prospect of such higher charges". However, ORR have not applied that test literally, i.e. asking "was it otherwise impossible?", but closer to asking "was it ever realistically going to happen?".

HAL never ran the railway, or did its accounts, as if recovering its cost from the railway alone was important to them. That seems to have been the main evidence ORR based their decision on. They do also say that internal HAL documents showed the full cost being recovered by 2016 (that's on top of all operating costs). I would have though that was more relevant, really. After all, if a cost has already been recovered, does it still count as a "historical long-term cost" in a charging scheme? I would have thought not; ORR didn't seem to make so much of that.

Here is ORR's news item on that judgemen (http://www.orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/press-releases/2017/court-upholds-orr-decision-on-crossrail-charges?utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Heathrow%20JR-%20Twitter)t:
Quote
Court upholds ORR decision on Crossrail charges

26 May 2017

As the independent regulator for the UK’s railways, we have a statutory role in ensuring charges to run trains on relevant networks are underpinned by evidence and comply with legal requirements.

In May 2016, taking into account representations and evidence from affected parties, including considerable documentation and submissions from Heathrow Airport Limited (HAL), we decided HAL is not permitted to introduce all of its proposed new charges for train operators to use its track, which links Heathrow ‎Airport to the Great Western main line.‎

HAL launched a judicial review of our decision and after a three day hearing, the court has dismissed HAL’s application and upheld our decision. We welcome this judgment and we will now work with all the affected parties to enable Crossrail services to start running as scheduled into the airport.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on May 27, 2017, 09:10:33 am
Question: who's right/responsibility are the pathing rights from Airport Junction?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on May 27, 2017, 09:20:09 am
Question: who's right/responsibility are the pathing rights from Airport Junction?

I think this is a classic case where individual (in this case each is a business entity) rights do not form a sensible basis. A path has to run end to end, or it's no use to anyone. So in practice the answer has to be collaboration.

There is a mention in ORR's analysis of the issues behind the case of HEx having preferential rights over the spur line. That was said (though I think by TfL, who were very much parti pris) to detract from the efficiency with which the infrastructure was used. In the case of the spur line itself that sounds questionable, but it was also said about the main line, in which case I think most of us would concur.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on May 27, 2017, 09:53:44 am
They built a railway yes, but they used statutory powers to do so.  The railway therefore becomes a statutory undertaking.  Arguably the railway was also provided as an adjunct to and was therefore funded as part of another statutory undertaking (namely Heathrow Airport).  The Heathrow Connect services were provided IIRC partly as a planning requirement to provide effective public transport for staff to the airport. 

So although privately owned, the Heathrow branch is not a private siding, it is a public railway just as the Great Western Railway was when it was first built. 

As a public railway the rights of the owner must be balanced with the rights of the public as a whole - we might call it the common good.  That was always the case even before nationalisation of the railways. 

Disputes of charges for running trains over other companies lines have been around from the earliest days as well.  In Swindon, the Midland and South Western Junction is said to have pursued a separate route because of the high charges the GWR would have charged for running into and out of Swindon Junction Station. 



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on May 27, 2017, 10:54:17 am
They built a railway yes, but they used statutory powers to do so.  The railway therefore becomes a statutory undertaking.  Arguably the railway was also provided as an adjunct to and was therefore funded as part of another statutory undertaking (namely Heathrow Airport).  The Heathrow Connect services were provided IIRC partly as a planning requirement to provide effective public transport for staff to the airport. 

So although privately owned, the Heathrow branch is not a private siding, it is a public railway just as the Great Western Railway was when it was first built. 

As a public railway the rights of the owner must be balanced with the rights of the public as a whole - we might call it the common good.  That was always the case even before nationalisation of the railways. 

The idea of a "public railway" as being not privately owned is of course quite recent - 1946. Before that they were governed by their railway acts (specific or general) but increasingly by state intervention of several forms.

Now all railways (pretty much) come under the Railways Infrastructure (Access and Management) Regulations 2005, as amended (and other laws and regulations too). There are exemptions, granted case by case, so I think all heritage railways will have one, as well as most depots. Heathrow was granted exemption from some of the charging rules in 2005, and in some cases that was to be "in perpetuity". Since then ORR and DfT have viewed that exemption very narrowly - as only applying to trains terminating at a Paddington. Trains from anywhere else (e.g. Crossrail ones, or WRAtH) get "compulsory" access.

Access requests are processed according to the network's "Network Statement" and "Network Code". The "Network Code" isn't a single document, and the whole document set is similar to (but simper than) NR's. The whole process, the documents, and any disputes, are all subject to ORR oversight and approval.

Ignore the link 4064ReadingAbbey gave earlier - it doesn't now work, and in any case the whole regulatory document set is here (http://www.heathrow.com/rail-regulation). HAL's Network Statement (revised in December 2016) covers the process.

That revision has made it much longer and more obviously derived from BR's version. Pathing is covered by "capacity allocation" and "timetable development", and now the words say this process is subcontracted to NR. HAL still have owners' rights (subject to ORR's oversight), but no longer claim to have their own supply of squared paper. Here's the main relevant bit:

Quote
4 Capacity Allocation

4.1 Introduction
HAL is responsible for the allocation of capacity through grants of TACs and will be responsible for all aspects of the allocation process, including confirming that the applicant complies with all relevant national technical, operational and safety requirements.

4.2 Description of Timetabling Process
When allocating capacity HAL will prioritise in the following order:
  • maintaining connecting paths from/to the Wider UK Rail Network;
  • existing track access capacity allocation;
  • future track access capacity commitments; and
  • other passenger services.
4.3 Description of the timetabling process
HAL will sub-contract out the responsibilities for managing access to the HAL infrastructure, such as the responsibilities for path allocation, co-ordination and validation of the timetable to NR as described in the relevant parts of the HAL Network Code. These responsibilities are undertaken by NR under instruction from HAL. Access to the HAL infrastructure requires entry from the Wider UK Rail Network and therefore applicants for access must not only seek rights from HAL but also from NR. For simplicity the timescale for access requests on HAL infrastructure mirrors the timetable employed on the Wider UK Rail Network. Details of NR’s timetabling process are set out in Annex A.

4.4 Timetable Development

4.4.1 Co-ordination process
In line with its obligations under the Regulations, HAL’s procedures for dealing with requests for capacity allocation (including ad-hoc requests) are designed to ensure that all current and potential railway undertakings are treated in a fair and non-discriminatory way.

Each year HAL circulates detailed plans covering the implementation of maintenance and renewal schemes to its access right holders and will make these available for any new access applicant upon request. HAL consults with access right holders from October to March for the following December timetable when access right holders are required to make a formal declaration of their aspirations for train paths provided under their TACs. In accordance with Schedule 4, paragraph 2(1) of the Regulations, timetable decisions will not be made until the end of the consultation period. The timetable planning process for HAL infrastructure adopts NR’s industry process to allow for alignment of train paths with main line services. For the avoidance of doubt, Train Operators will bid for paths under one process through NR for both the Wider UK Rail Network and HAL infrastructure as if the HAL infrastructure and the Wider UK Rail Network were one and the same.

NR, as HAL’s agent will provide publication of any key documents, policies and procedures required to manage the timetabling process. These documents include but are not limited to:
  • The HAL Engineering Access Statement
  • Timetable Planning Rules
  • Working timetable and variations to the working timetable
  • Possession strategy notices
  • Sectional appendix
  • Weekly operating notices
  • Performance Data Accuracy Code
  • Delay Attribution Guide
  • Railway Operational Code
  • Railway Systems Code
4.4.2 Ad-hoc requests
In addition to making an application for a path in accordance with the annual timetable process, the potential applicant may submit variation requests for one-off individual train paths to HAL’s appointed contractor, HAL or their appointed contractor will respond as quickly as possible, and at all times within five working days of receipt of a request.

Requests made more than two days prior to the day the train is proposed to run will be dealt with under short term planning arrangements within the NR’s industry process. Any requests made on the day of running or on the two preceding days will be dealt with by the local operational control team.

4.4.3 Future Access Options
A separate TAC, known as an Access Option, must be entered into with HAL where an applicant wishes to operate trains for which specific infrastructure enhancement is required on the HAL infrastructure and for which the applicant will be making a significant investment. Activation of the contract will be subject to the investment and the works having taken place.

4.4.4 Access Dispute Resolution
As described in the Appeals Procedure at 1.5.3, any dispute concerning matters covered by the ADRR is dealt with in accordance with the procedure prescribed in such rules, annexed in the HAL Network Code. The procedure addresses disputes arising out of the TAC and SAC and provision has been made for the referral of any dispute to a technical, operational or financial panel, as appropriate.

If any Train Operator bids result in disputed paths, these will be raised by the Train Operator through NR who will notify HAL of the dispute. It is the responsibility of HAL to respond to those disputes in accordance with the procedure within the HAL Network Code.

Where any Train Operator Bids and access is not available, NR will notify HAL of the unavailability of the access and HAL will notify the affected Train Operators.

4.4.5 Congested Infrastructure
The Regulations require HAL to declare areas of its network as congested where, after the co-ordination of requests for capacity and consultation with applicants, it is not possible to satisfy all access requests. HAL is not declaring any congested areas at this time. However, should there be congestion, HAL will review the situation in accordance with the Approach to Capacity Management.

With the exception of additional platforms at T5, there is no further opportunity to create capacity over and above the “as built” status on HAL infrastructure.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on May 31, 2017, 05:22:23 pm
From railmagazine.com:
Quote
Delayed start for first Crossrail Aventra
31/05/2017 in Fleet

Transport for London was unable to confirm an exact date for when the first Class 345 Aventra electric multiple unit for Crossrail would enter traffic.

The £1 billion train fleet is being built by Bombardier at Derby Litchurch Lane, with three trains so far delivered to Ilford for testing and training. TfL documents from March confirmed that the first train due to enter traffic was meant to be 345005 on May 23 (RAIL 826). It was to be used on the Shenfield to London Liverpool Street metros, with 11 in traffic by September.

A TfL spokesman gave no reason for the delay, telling RAIL: “They are still testing. There is no firm idea [for their introduction].”

TfL has 66 nine-car Class 345s on order. The first 15 will be delivered as seven-car trains initially, before being extended to nine-car sets. There is consideration for extending the deal to 70 trains.

    Author:  Richard Clinnick
    richard.clinnick@bauermedia.co.uk


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 31, 2017, 08:15:45 pm
From railmagazine.com:
Quote
Delayed start for first Crossrail Aventra
31/05/2017 in Fleet

Transport for London was unable to confirm an exact date for when the first Class 345 Aventra electric multiple unit for Crossrail would enter traffic.

The £1 billion train fleet is being built by Bombardier at Derby Litchurch Lane, with three trains so far delivered to Ilford for testing and training. TfL documents from March confirmed that the first train due to enter traffic was meant to be 345005 on May 23 (RAIL 826). It was to be used on the Shenfield to London Liverpool Street metros, with 11 in traffic by September.

A TfL spokesman gave no reason for the delay, telling RAIL: “They are still testing. There is no firm idea [for their introduction].”

TfL has 66 nine-car Class 345s on order. The first 15 will be delivered as seven-car trains initially, before being extended to nine-car sets. There is consideration for extending the deal to 70 trains.

    Author:  Richard Clinnick
    richard.clinnick@bauermedia.co.uk


...............a major rail project delayed? Surely not............you'll be suggesting that it's overspent next!  :D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Surrey 455 on May 31, 2017, 09:15:00 pm
Quote
TfL has 66 nine-car Class 345s on order. The first 15 will be delivered as seven-car trains initially, before being extended to nine-car sets. There is consideration for extending the deal to 70 trains.

Only 9 carriages? My local line uses 8 (M-F) and once Waterloo works in August are complete will be able to have 10 (FirstMTR plans permitting).
Is 9 carriages a preliminary size with a view to increasing in later years?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on May 31, 2017, 09:44:11 pm
Originally was going to be 10 x 20m cars, but Bombardier offered 9 x 23m. Most suburban stock is still 20m.

There is an option to extend by another 2 cars and the central platforms have been dug out with this in mind. I suspect it won't be too long before this is needed.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 31, 2017, 10:32:31 pm
Originally was going to be 10 x 20m cars, but Bombardier offered 9 x 23m. Most suburban stock is still 20m.

There is an option to extend by another 2 cars and the central platforms have been dug out with this in mind. I suspect it won't be too long before this is needed.

9x23m was presumably chosen due to that being a more suitable length to meet the challenging dwell times TfL specified - three external doors per side of each 23m vehicle can just about be squeezed in, three doors per 20m vehicle wouldn't leave much room for seats!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: didcotdean on May 31, 2017, 10:36:49 pm
Although seats seem to be a lesser priority to standing room.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on June 01, 2017, 12:13:38 pm
From railmagazine.com:
Quote
Delayed start for first Crossrail Aventra
31/05/2017 in Fleet

Transport for London was unable to confirm an exact date for when the first Class 345 Aventra electric multiple unit for Crossrail would enter traffic.

The £1 billion train fleet is being built by Bombardier at Derby Litchurch Lane, with three trains so far delivered to Ilford for testing and training. TfL documents from March confirmed that the first train due to enter traffic was meant to be 345005 on May 23 (RAIL 826). It was to be used on the Shenfield to London Liverpool Street metros, with 11 in traffic by September.

A TfL spokesman gave no reason for the delay, telling RAIL: “They are still testing. There is no firm idea [for their introduction].”

TfL has 66 nine-car Class 345s on order. The first 15 will be delivered as seven-car trains initially, before being extended to nine-car sets. There is consideration for extending the deal to 70 trains.

    Author:  Richard Clinnick
    richard.clinnick@bauermedia.co.uk


...............a major rail project delayed? Surely not............you'll be suggesting that it's overspent next!  :D

Or RAIL magazine got their info wrong (again)....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on June 01, 2017, 12:23:02 pm
...............a major rail project delayed? Surely not............you'll be suggesting that it's overspent next!  :D
Or RAIL magazine got their info wrong (again)....

This is from a recent ICE article on Crossrail, but I think the dates are the original ones:
Quote
The Crossrail programme is structured to deliver a series of
opening stages as follows.
■ Stage 1: progressive introduction of new class 345 rolling stock
on existing suburban services between Liverpool Street and
Shenfield (May 2017).
■ Stage 2: on-network works between Heathrow and Westbourne
Park, including services running at a frequency of four trains
per hour from Paddington station to Heathrow (May 2018).
■ Stage 3: Elizabeth line services running between Paddington
low-level and Abbey Wood stations (December 2018).
■ Stage 4: through-running of Elizabeth line services between
Paddington low-level and both Shenfield and Abbey Wood
(May 2019).
■ Stage 5: full Elizabeth line service from Reading and Heathrow
through the central operating section to Shenfield and Abbey
Wood (December 2019).

So if they aren't yet running any 345s to Shenfield, that's a bit of a delay. But it's hardly a big hard project deadline, hence the lack of publicity about it. It's more of a "let's us and the lads try them out for real as soon as we've got a few" kind of step.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on June 01, 2017, 12:30:58 pm
Originally was going to be 10 x 20m cars, but Bombardier offered 9 x 23m. Most suburban stock is still 20m.

There is an option to extend by another 2 cars and the central platforms have been dug out with this in mind. I suspect it won't be too long before this is needed.

Last year I reported this (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=818.msg191867#msg191867) from a presentation by Crossrail/Bombadier:
Quote
Extending to 11-car is not a simple option; the power design hasn't been done to allow for it. At least one extra power bogie per "half" is needed (that gradient again), and presumably some uprating of other components to feed it. (But this was an off-the-cuff reply and may not be Bombardier's last word on the subject).

It was also pointed out that all the Heathrow platforms are only 200-and-few metres long. (You can check this in HAL's Timetable Planning Rules.) So their view was that the stretch to 11 cars wouldn't happen.

In any case, I suspect a lot of factors would result in the extra pax carried being far lower than the 25%-ish nominal increase. Would people spread out over the whole length to match the spare capacity? Will they spread along the (open-plan) trains of any length to even the load when they are really busy?

And splitting the fleet so as to run 9-car to Heathrow and 11-car for other trains would not only be operationally awkward, but would make the passenger spreading problem even worse.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on June 01, 2017, 12:53:05 pm
If you go back all the way to the original Crossrail rolling stock tender, it was actually for a fleet of 100m units to normally run in pairs, and they seriously mentioned running short trains in the off-peak and at weekends.

I once read that requirement fell at the wayside as soon as the platform edge door decision was made.   Some 5 car trains alongside 10 car PEDs would introduce another potential failure mode.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 01, 2017, 05:45:37 pm
.....and the depot at OOCD has been designed for 9-Car trains with space for future provision of maximum 10-car trains (by extending the stabling sidings at the buffer stops into the access road).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 02, 2017, 03:19:27 pm
Although seats seem to be a lesser priority to standing room.

In terms of seats it's 454 per train, just under 100 of which are traditional facing/back seats at bays of four with the rest being longitudinal.  That is pretty much identical to what is currently provided by a 5-car Turbo or an 8-car Class 387.  Frequency increases at most stations will, I imagine, result in a slight increase in seating provision on what is provided today, with much better provision for standing.  Though I would personally have liked to see a few more seats (though that would be difficult given the six doors per carriage layout) and a couple of toilets.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: didcotdean on June 02, 2017, 03:44:59 pm
Yes I believe the total stated capacity is 1500 per train, ie a bit over 1000 standing.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 04, 2017, 07:34:33 pm
Yes I believe the total stated capacity is 1500 per train, ie a bit over 1000 standing.



Crossrail aka The Elizabeth Line has always been designated as a Metro Service the same a London Underground.

I am so glad I will be retired before I have to use it to commute to work  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 23, 2017, 10:17:21 am
The first Class 345 entered passenger service yesterday -
Londonist report (http://londonist.com/london/transport/new-crossrail-trains-launch-today)
Timings (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F27693/2017/06/22/advanced)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on June 23, 2017, 11:04:25 am
You can't help but notice the vast amount of new development in the Hayes & Harlington area, and indeed now a big site is being cleared at Southall. I suspect it's not totally coincidental as it is well known that improved rail links tends to encourage development, but I do wonder how long before the additional capacity gets used up.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on June 23, 2017, 12:21:03 pm
If you go back all the way to the original Crossrail rolling stock tender, it was actually for a fleet of 100m units to normally run in pairs, and they seriously mentioned running short trains in the off-peak and at weekends.

I once read that requirement fell at the wayside as soon as the platform edge door decision was made.   Some 5 car trains alongside 10 car PEDs would introduce another potential failure mode.

Paul
PEDs? Not performance enhancing drugs in this context!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on June 30, 2017, 08:02:49 pm
From the BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40458246

Quote
Crossrail stations in west London delayed until 2019

by Tom Edwards, Transport correspondent, London

"On time and on budget" is the mantra Crossrail have used thousands of times over the years. They can't use it anymore.

I've learnt that five new Crossrail stations that were due to be built in west London by Network Rail will be delayed.
Acton, West Ealing, Hayes and Harlington and Southall were due to be finished by the end of this year. Ealing Broadway was meant to completed by end of January next year.

That's all gone out of the window and they'll now be upgraded by the summer of 2019.

Today in West Ealing the building site is empty with little work completed - it was meant to be finished by the end of next month.

Local residents, like Dr Ben Sherliker have been fighting for months, if not years, to get answers from Network Rail but he says they have been kept in the dark. They were told there were only "minor delays".
[continues]


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on June 30, 2017, 08:20:56 pm
From the BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40458246
...

I've learnt that five new Crossrail stations that were due to be built in west London by Network Rail will be delayed.

Upgraded surely?   Just a bit of exaggeration - as is usual with the media.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on June 30, 2017, 08:57:33 pm
From the BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40458246
...

I've learnt that five new Crossrail stations that were due to be built in west London by Network Rail will be delayed.

Upgraded surely?   Just a bit of exaggeration - as is usual with the media.

Paul

And if they meet those dates, they will still be well before the trains run - which is the real definition of "on time". It's not like building the new bits in tunnels, where missing an internal deadline may push the whole critical path off the end.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris125 on July 02, 2017, 08:36:04 pm

Upgraded surely?   Just a bit of exaggeration - as is usual with the media.

Paul

Seems fine to me - the work being delayed is the construction of new station buildings at those locations.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 02, 2017, 11:14:28 pm

Upgraded surely?   Just a bit of exaggeration - as is usual with the media.

Paul

Seems fine to me - the work being delayed is the construction of new station buildings at those locations.
Then he should have replacement station buildings, not new stations.  The stations exist.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on July 03, 2017, 01:03:59 am
You can't help but notice the vast amount of new development in the Hayes & Harlington area, and indeed now a big site is being cleared at Southall. I suspect it's not totally coincidental as it is well known that improved rail links tends to encourage development, but I do wonder how long before the additional capacity gets used up.

That development is very much an intent, isn't it?   For 180 years, trains have brought - or attempted to bring in some of the less well worked out - economic and residential activity to the places they serve.  "X grew when the railway came - it was just a couple of houses before" is a familiar line in railway histories.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 03, 2017, 06:02:23 am
You can't help but notice the vast amount of new development in the Hayes & Harlington area, and indeed now a big site is being cleared at Southall. I suspect it's not totally coincidental as it is well known that improved rail links tends to encourage development, but I do wonder how long before the additional capacity gets used up.

That development is very much an intent, isn't it?   For 180 years, trains have brought - or attempted to bring in some of the less well worked out - economic and residential activity to the places they serve.  "X grew when the railway came - it was just a couple of houses before" is a familiar line in railway histories.

..............and how much additional capacity year on year has been built into Crossrail/GWR to reflect this I wonder?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on July 03, 2017, 03:24:57 pm
You can't help but notice the vast amount of new development in the Hayes & Harlington area, and indeed now a big site is being cleared at Southall. I suspect it's not totally coincidental as it is well known that improved rail links tends to encourage development, but I do wonder how long before the additional capacity gets used up.

That development is very much an intent, isn't it?   For 180 years, trains have brought - or attempted to bring in some of the less well worked out - economic and residential activity to the places they serve.  "X grew when the railway came - it was just a couple of houses before" is a familiar line in railway histories.

..............and how much additional capacity year on year has been built into Crossrail/GWR to reflect this I wonder?

How long is a typical GWR suburban train? And how long will all the Crossrail trains be?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 03, 2017, 04:54:07 pm
2 to 8 carriages (with most, but by no means all, peak hour ones either 5,6 or 8 ).  That compares with all Crossrail trains at 9-car length.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on July 03, 2017, 04:57:33 pm
peak hour ones either 5,6 or 8).

I love the way you think an 8 car train is cool  ;D .


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on July 04, 2017, 11:40:04 am
2 to 8 carriages (with most, but by no means all, peak hour ones either 5,6 or 8 ).  That compares with all Crossrail trains at 9-car length.

Thank you! That was the point I was trying to make, even without any increase in frequency the capacity on the suburban service as far as Maidenhead will increase considerably. In Reading's case the two off-peak terminators will also be longer - but there are only two of them!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on July 04, 2017, 11:47:34 am
http://mediacentre.heathrow.com/pressrelease/details/81/Corporate-operational-24/8615

An announcement today that an additional two Elizabeth Line services will run to Heathrow each hour, and to T5 rather than T4. With a feasibility study to increase that to four.  Direct services to T5 will make the Elizabeth Line a very attractive alternative to HEx, albeit slightly slower.  There's no information on what intermediate calls they will make. I suspect it will be all stations.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 04, 2017, 11:49:29 am
But should also take railcards, including NSE, so will be cheaper than HEX.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 04, 2017, 11:54:18 am
A further strain on the relief lines assuming these are additional trains that weren't originally going to be destined for Hayes/West Drayton?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 04, 2017, 11:59:15 am
These must be diverted surely? THey can't get any more through the core area, can they?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 04, 2017, 03:10:15 pm
At one time (2010) a 'Dynamic Loop' (accessible from the Relief Lines) was proposed between West Drayton and Langley.  That seems to have disappeared from the final track layout and now only the Up Relief platform at West Drayton will be reversible.  I think the number of services on the Relief Lines will require such precision in operation that it will probably fail the first week its introduced (reminisces of 'Operation Princess') :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 04, 2017, 03:16:59 pm
These must be diverted surely? THey can't get any more through the core area, can they?
It would simply be an extension of 2 of the trains per hour that are planned to terminate at Paddington having come through the core


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on July 04, 2017, 03:39:05 pm
At one time (2010) a 'Dynamic Loop' (accessible from the Relief Lines) was proposed between West Drayton and Langley.  That seems to have disappeared from the final track layout and now only the Up Relief platform at West Drayton will be reversible.  I think the number of services on the Relief Lines will require such precision in operation that it will probably fail the first week its introduced (reminisces of 'Operation Princess') :P

I thought the plan was (and still is) to relay the existing goods loop through Iver and West Drayton, make it into the Up Crossrail, and give it platform faces in both stations. The passenger loop would be the old Up Relief. Was there ever an approved plan to extend it to Langley?

As far as I can see all of that has happened except building P5 on the back of P4 at Iver. But there's still time...the platforms need extending anyway.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 04, 2017, 04:04:03 pm
Perhaps those 2 extra trains all day into Heathrow remove the need for the original peak extras that were going to terminate at West Drayton. 

I don't think they were necessarily there to deal with specific demand to/from West Drayton, maybe just that it was a convenient place to turn back...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 04, 2017, 06:27:25 pm
At one time (2010) a 'Dynamic Loop' (accessible from the Relief Lines) was proposed between West Drayton and Langley.  That seems to have disappeared from the final track layout and now only the Up Relief platform at West Drayton will be reversible.  I think the number of services on the Relief Lines will require such precision in operation that it will probably fail the first week its introduced (reminisces of 'Operation Princess') :P

I thought the plan was (and still is) to relay the existing goods loop through Iver and West Drayton, make it into the Up Crossrail, and give it platform faces in both stations. The passenger loop would be the old Up Relief. Was there ever an approved plan to extend it to Langley?

As far as I can see all of that has happened except building P5 on the back of P4 at Iver. But there's still time...the platforms need extending anyway.
....mmm. Not seen a Signalling Scheme Plan that shows that (yet!).....


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 04, 2017, 08:28:00 pm
Confirmation elsewhere that Oyster/contactless will be available for these trains, along with, I understand, HEX.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on July 04, 2017, 09:09:10 pm
I'm intrigued to know how that will work, given the differential pricing for HEx. Though I can imagine anything that makes the cost of HEx less transparent would be attractive to the airport.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris125 on July 04, 2017, 09:53:27 pm
These must be diverted surely? THey can't get any more through the core area, can they?

IIRC the core is only getting 24tph under current plans, if need be that can be increased - I think up to 30tph has been mentioned.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 04, 2017, 11:09:24 pm
I'm intrigued to know how that will work, given the differential pricing for HEx. Though I can imagine anything that makes the cost of HEx less transparent would be attractive to the airport.
Differential PAYG pricing works on Gatwick Express now.  It uses the dedicated platform barriers at the Victoria end of the route to determine the fare to charge.  So they could use the same platforms and barriers for both HEx and Crossrail at Heathrow, as long as HEx kept its dedicated platforms at Paddington.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on July 04, 2017, 11:47:46 pm
I suspect the Greater Western franchisee would be happy if platforms 6-9 are barriered at Paddington to facilitate Oyster usage on HeX.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 05, 2017, 06:11:19 am
Or the differential is charged only on HEX 1st class, and they give it up in STD? It is a possibility


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 05, 2017, 09:16:19 pm
Or the differential is charged only on HEX 1st class, and they give it up in STD? It is a possibility

Or HEX actually becomes all First Class, this is certainly the case with the direct rail service from Rome to the airport(o)  ;D yet the train is bog standard one just non stop.  By HEX being all first class and their eventual through running to Reading they should make some money, HEX Padd - Heathrom 15 min Crossrail nearer 30 bussiness travellers will thak HEX


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 14, 2017, 10:12:26 am
As well as the previously announced Terminal 5 service, TfL have now announced that there will be four trains per hour running through to Reading and six trains per hour to Maidenhead. 

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/tfl-to-enhance-frequency-on-the-elizabeth-line

An increase of two trains per hour in each case.  I presume that means GWR will no longer be running a relief line service twice per hour as originally intended as there will not be any room for them now, surely?



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 14, 2017, 10:45:46 am
How long ago is 'originally'? I thought GWR were only going to run semi-fast & fast services, mainly on the main lines once Crossrail (originally) was fully up & running? Once Crossrail was running through to Reading (when I base my 'originally' on), the Maidenheads & Readings were the main services.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 14, 2017, 10:52:32 am
Up until this announcement a 2tph relief line service was expected between Reading and Paddington operated by GWR calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes (off-peak only) and Ealing Broadway.

http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/c/original/crossrail_service_pattern-reading_to_central_london_aug_2016.pdf


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 14, 2017, 11:01:01 am
Thats the semi-fast services I was referring to....couldn't they still operate?

6tph plus a freight path...too many?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 14, 2017, 11:07:57 am
6tph plus a freight path...too many?

Personally, I think it is, especially east of Airport Junction where it will be a lot more than 6tph.  Perhaps NR, Crossrail and GWR still think it will work.  Will be interesting to find out.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 14, 2017, 11:17:13 am
As well as the previously announced Terminal 5 service, TfL have now announced that there will be four trains per hour running through to Reading and six trains per hour to Maidenhead. 
Although in the peaks only.    Perhaps some GWR services will continue to run through on the reliefs in the off-peak.

ISTM that there will no longer be any West Drayton peak extras, they will effectively become Reading peak extras.

As forecast in discussions after that March 2017 TfL board paper I linked to at the time.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 14, 2017, 11:21:08 am
I confess to not having spotted the additional ones were peak services only - that makes all the more sense, so yes I would expect the off-peak GWR services to still operate then.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 14, 2017, 07:08:05 pm
Quote
have now announced that there will be four trains per hour running through to Reading and six trains per hour to Maidenhead.....I presume that means GWR will no longer be running a relief line service twice per hour as originally intended as there will not be any room for them now, surely?
Quote
Although in the peaks only.    Perhaps some GWR services will continue to run through on the reliefs in the off-peak.
Quote
I confess to not having spotted the additional ones were peak services only - that makes all the more sense, so yes I would expect the off-peak GWR services to still operate then.

From the blurb towards the bottom of the link:
Quote from:  crossrail.co.uk

TfL and the Department for Transport, the joint sponsors of the Crossrail project, have been working closely with Network Rail to ensure the best use of the shared railway infrastructure in west London and beyond. Five Great Western Railway services will be replaced with Elizabeth line services. This will provide the same or greater, frequency and the same journey times for the majority of passengers, with the added benefit of being able to continue directly into central London on the Elizabeth line.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: lordgoata on July 14, 2017, 11:28:56 pm
So am I reading this right, and there will now no longer be any through local stopping services from Banbury/Oxford to Paddington ? ie. no more hoping on at Goring and off at Maidenhead without a change at Reading ?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 15, 2017, 10:14:13 am
Yes, it would appear a change at Reading would be required during the peaks.

My guess would be a shuttle from Didcot to Reading every 15/20/30? minutes. Depending on the timetabling of the crossrail services this could involve a cross platform interchange 14/15 or some non-joined up thinking by having to crossover from 12/13 - 14/15.

Unless they manage to find some space on the mains to run half hourly Didcot to Reading all stations followed by fast to Paddington?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: didcotdean on July 15, 2017, 10:56:38 am
... and say for someone starting back at Radley therefore a current non-change journey to Maidenhead would therefore likely require two.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on July 15, 2017, 02:53:50 pm
Strewth, I hope not! Yhat'd be 3 from Banbury to stations Maidenhead & east thereof!!!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 15, 2017, 02:55:22 pm
Unless they have figured a way of having the odd fast from Didcot or further afield to stop at Twyford or Maidenhead then yes, two changes for such a journey (be quicker to row down the Thames)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 15, 2017, 02:56:26 pm
Strewth, I hope not! Yhat'd be 3 from Banbury to stations Maidenhead & east thereof!!!

No, just the two changes at Oxford & Reading


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 15, 2017, 02:58:11 pm
Unless they manage to find some space on the mains to run half hourly Didcot to Reading all stations followed by fast to Paddington?

The original TfL paper said exactly that, that 5 trains over the peak period (maybe 2 per hour ish) would have to be replaced by services that run on the mains:

Quote
Great Western Franchise services to Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading and Thames Valley stations will continue to be provided during the Peak period by other trains which operate over the main lines between Paddington and Maidenhead.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/16-elizabeth-line.pdf

Down direction described but I'd assume both peak flow directions would get the same treatment.  So an alternative view is that the service from minor stations Didcot to Reading could be improved for people heading all the way to Paddington.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on July 15, 2017, 04:22:29 pm
Unless they manage to find some space on the mains to run half hourly Didcot to Reading all stations followed by fast to Paddington?

The original TfL paper said exactly that, that 5 trains over the peak period (maybe 2 per hour ish) would have to be replaced by services that run on the mains:

Quote
Great Western Franchise services to Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading and Thames Valley stations will continue to be provided during the Peak period by other trains which operate over the main lines between Paddington and Maidenhead.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/16-elizabeth-line.pdf

Down direction described but I'd assume both peak flow directions would get the same treatment.  So an alternative view is that the service from minor stations Didcot to Reading could be improved for people heading all the way to Paddington.

Paul

I don't think it reads that way. Surely the trains which continue to provide this service are the ones that already run: a combination of long-distance trains stopping on the main lines, variations of the Oxford fast trains that stop off-peak at Slough only, the Henley through trains, etc.

However, once the full IEP timetable is running, that uses more paths on the Main Lines than now, so the number of these semi-fast trains (as opposed to the limited stop ones on the Reliefs) can only go down.

Evening peak trains are a bigger problem, as they have to cross the Up Main rather than the Down Relief. The high line speed means each conflicting move across it takes three or four paths out of use, which is why NR really want to get rid of all those cross-over trains. But I suspect a few could always be sneaked in in the morning peak, before the long-distance Up service has built up to its full rate.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 15, 2017, 04:28:53 pm

Evening peak trains are a bigger problem, as they have to cross the Up Main rather than the Down Relief. The high line speed means each conflicting move across it takes three or four paths out of use, which is why NR really want to get rid of all those cross-over trains. But I suspect a few could always be sneaked in in the morning peak, before the long-distance Up service has built up to its full rate.

An evening peak "main to relief" move could of course be done entirely differently, i.e. west of Reading by using the Festival line underpass.  I've always assumed that provided for more flexibility than just its obvious use by XC.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 15, 2017, 05:32:33 pm
Absolutely Paul, and something that I would hope will occur in the future.

Heading eastbound it could be possible to use Platforms 12-14 and run down relief to Kennet Bridge junction before crossing to the main, minimising the impact of crossing over further east. This manoeuvre could also be done simultaneously as a crossrail arrives Platforms 13-15.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: lordgoata on July 15, 2017, 10:54:49 pm
Yes, it would appear a change at Reading would be required during the peaks.

My guess would be a shuttle from Didcot to Reading every 15/20/30? minutes. Depending on the timetabling of the crossrail services this could involve a cross platform interchange 14/15 or some non-joined up thinking by having to crossover from 12/13 - 14/15.

Unless they manage to find some space on the mains to run half hourly Didcot to Reading all stations followed by fast to Paddington?

Just sodding wonderful. Not enough time to do anything on either leg of the journey, and freeze to bloody death at Reading every day during winter. And I'm sure I'll have to pay more for the privilege. Maybe I need to take a leaf out of BNM's book and learn to drive after all these years.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on July 15, 2017, 11:53:03 pm
I think we need to be careful about assuming what will happen once Crossrail starts. The timetable should be coming together now, but I imagine in this case it still exists in a number of alternative forms, all with big disadvantages.

And what, exactly, does that Crossrail statement (about their 4 tph to Reading replacing all four of the original residual GW trains) mean? In the sense of why is it their business? The Relief Lines as far as Slough are not at all full, and the Route Study talks about adding services due to East-West Rail and WRAtH (though they are possibly the same ones).

What Crossrail does is to meet the SLC requirement, so GWR don't need to any more. But we've never seen a post-2019 SLC, and can only guess what it might contain. Cross-Reading services might be part of it, who knows?

And then there's the effect of adding 4 tph of long trains needing to terminate at Reading. As the Route Study points out, there isn't enough room for them, the XC terminators, west-of Reading stoppers, and through trains all at once. So if you can't join Crossrail to another service to the west, what else do you join up into through services?

In any case, for a few years there will be a succession of interim solutions. The service planned for post-everything (Crossrail, electrification, IEP, East-West, etc.) has to wait for wires to Oxford at the least. And there will be more everything too, with WRAtH, and perhaps a rebuilt Oxford station.

Here's a thought: maybe the stoppers coming in from Didcot/Oxford will have to run on via Twyford and Maidenhead just to find a platform for a reasonably long stop.  As the bay at Slough isn't being built any more, the first available option is drop the passengers at Slough and reclaim the old oil terminal siding to wait in. That would in effect be a WRAtH service turning short, where that will meet the main line, until it gets built.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on July 16, 2017, 01:41:42 am
...
What Crossrail does is to meet the SLC requirement, so GWR don't need to any more. But we've never seen a post-2019 SLC, and can only guess what it might contain. Cross-Reading services might be part of it, who knows?

And then there's the effect of adding 4 tph of long trains needing to terminate at Reading. As the Route Study points out, there isn't enough room for them, the XC terminators, west-of Reading stoppers, and through trains all at once. So if you can't join Crossrail to another service to the west, what else do you join up into through services?
...

That was me getting a bit ahead of where we really are. What's been announced is 4 tph Crossrail only in the peaks. So in that case there's still 2 tph "residuals" the rest of the day, though they don't replace any existing train exactly (stopping Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes & Harlington, and Ealing Broadway).

Crossrail's published service pattern (March 2016) says it excludes "fast services on the Main Line through Reading". So any other peak-only services at Twyford and Maidenhead would have to stop on the Main Lines (most don't now). Or else not; that list is headed "minimum indicative services to central London per hour", so maybe these peak-only semi-fast ones are too irregular to count.

So the initial changes to fit round Crossrail may be "do-minimum" - especially if the fuller recasting of the service pattern comes with the new franchise.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 16, 2017, 12:32:04 pm
Whatever happens, there are bound to be a few losers in amongst many winners.  No prizes for guessing which the media (and a few of the posters on here) will focus on.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on July 16, 2017, 02:06:44 pm
Whatever happens, there are bound to be a few losers in amongst many winners.  No prizes for guessing which the media (and a few of the posters on here) will focus on.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the one in a hundred who's journeys are seriously degraded.   I love the "Japanese train for one school girl" story (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3395828/The-train-company-stops-station-everyday-pick-ONE-passenger-school.html) and it would be wonderful if such could be a general approach. However, there could have been another side to this story if a stop at Kami-Shirataki precluded a stop at Oka-no-ue-no-atarashī-tsūkin-machi.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on July 16, 2017, 05:22:01 pm
As has been posted in another forum (uk.railway), and I must say that I agree with the sentiments expressed which is why I am doing a cut-and-paste job here, it seems that the basic issue with increasing the Crossrail frequencies is that TfL wants to run trains at metro/tube-type frequencies over part of a mixed traffic railway. This railway also serves communities 60 or more miles from London and carries significant volumes of freight traffic. To me it seems perverse that London's perceived interests can result in people and companies a long way away being disadvantaged.

The freight issue seems to have been a bit forgotten although Crossrail has paid for the new diveunder at the entrance to Acton yard. When questions of pathing crop up it is often suggested that freight can run off-peak or at night. I don't think this is a long term solution. The FOCs run on such wafer-thin margins that if their usage of their locos, wagons and staff are constrained in such a way that their unit costs are increased and they lose some traffic it doesn't help anyone - least of all people using the roads. Similarly why should the passenger from Pangbourne to Slough or Goring to Maidenhead (as examples) have his or her journey made more complicated or less convenient?

If TfL want to run its London-centric services at such high frequencies that it affects other services which in a sense have 'grandfather rights' it should buy its own tracks. In the first instance I would suggest least as far as the Airport/Stockley Junctions.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on July 17, 2017, 09:36:55 am
As well as Crossrail, waiting in the wings to use the Relief Lines are Heathrow Express to their depot at Langley and the Western Link to Heathrow. In both cases if built.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 17, 2017, 10:23:47 am
I would imagine the western link will use the existing Crossrail train paths with through trains from Reading via Heathrow to Shenfield/Abbey Wood, though that does throw up a problem for Iver and West Drayton which would then be missed out.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Tim on July 17, 2017, 11:40:06 am
it is often suggested that freight can run off-peak or at night

the trouble with running freight off peak is that TfL seems to want regular interval frequent services throughout the day. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on July 17, 2017, 12:31:25 pm
I would imagine the western link will use the existing Crossrail train paths with through trains from Reading via Heathrow to Shenfield/Abbey Wood, though that does throw up a problem for Iver and West Drayton which would then be missed out.

IT has been said by Crossrail spokesmen that they have no wish to run past T5. Therefore it would be for the mainline operator to run through to Paddington. Although the Link designers are planning to provide a crossover box just West of T5 to allow a shuttle service from the West.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on July 17, 2017, 12:38:54 pm
Let's just re-emphasise that even after all these announcements  (since about March),  the actual off-peak service increase is still just the two extra trains to Heathrow T5.  So as far as the impact on freight is concerned this should be between Acton Yard and Stockley only, and between Stockley and Reading the off-peak timetable hasn't changed as far as I can see.

So is it possible that taken across the wider internet there's a bit of an exaggeration?   TfL run a higher intensity service on the NLL amongst freights as far as I can see, without the world ending...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on July 17, 2017, 01:25:51 pm
I would imagine the western link will use the existing Crossrail train paths with through trains from Reading via Heathrow to Shenfield/Abbey Wood, though that does throw up a problem for Iver and West Drayton which would then be missed out.

IT has been said by Crossrail spokesmen that they have no wish to run past T5. Therefore it would be for the mainline operator to run through to Paddington. Although the Link designers are planning to provide a crossover box just West of T5 to allow a shuttle service from the West.

Though it would appear much more efficient to run Crossrail services from T5 to Reading once the western link is open.  Else you have two lots of terminating trains turning round at Heathrow, which can be removed by running through. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 17, 2017, 06:32:33 pm
Quote
TfL run a higher intensity service on the NLL amongst freights as far as I can see, without the world ending...

???

6tph off peak, 8tph in the peak on the NLL. Admittedly though more freights run across this section than the GWR


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 25, 2017, 01:05:42 pm
If you want to see the spectacular acceleration of the new Crossrail Class 345s, then take a look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxb35_oBsV4

Leaves anything else on the national rail network standing in the starting blocks!  Also note how obediently the passengers observe the 'please don't board when the doors are closing announcement' especially the girl in the pink rucksack who looks completely uninterested in boarding until making a last gasp kamikaze leap!  :D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on July 25, 2017, 02:32:09 pm
If you want to see the spectacular acceleration of the new Crossrail Class 345s, then take a look at this video:

Supposedly that is needed for those 1 in 27 slopes in the tunnels. However, as I think they are (like on the deep tubes) up into stations, it's not clear it needs much spare acceleration up them.

How much of that traction you can safely use, and base the timetable on, when on rails left lying about in the weather is another matter.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 25, 2017, 04:33:49 pm
Takes some getting used to not having a yellow end...... :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on July 25, 2017, 05:18:57 pm
Takes some getting used to not having a yellow end...... :P

Pills working, then, are they?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on July 27, 2017, 08:46:36 pm
Takes some getting used to not having a yellow end...... :P

Pills working, then, are they?

Its ok for the S&T at least they still have double yellows  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 17, 2017, 09:45:10 pm
I had a trip on a Class 345 train today.  Plenty of pictures and videos are available from other sources so I won't bother posting them.

The overall experience was pretty positive.  Talk of 'cattle trucks' is not borne out of my experiences today and the train has a lovely spacious feeling inside with the purple and grey colour scheme looking very nice in my opinion.  Tinted glass panels at various points help give a feeling of segregation, and the mix of longitudinal and transverse seats blend quite well.  I personally would have preferred a higher ratio of transverse seats but this would not have enabled any more seats to have been installed, and you have to remember this is designed as a mass people mover - something it will do very well.  Ditto I would have liked to see a toilet or two installed.

Negatives include the CIS and announcements, which do not make best use of the design and can be confusing.  Hopefully they will be resolved with a software update.

Ride quality was smooth and acceleration excellent.  No idea if it was maxing out, but we did 0-60 in under 35 seconds, by which time a Turbo would be doing less than half that speed!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on September 26, 2017, 04:08:33 pm
Latest progress update from TfL.  Too long to quote here:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20170919-item11-elizabeth-line-final.pdf


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 29, 2017, 10:00:03 am
The first Crossrail unit should be seen in our region in the next few days with testing runs pencilled in from Monday onwards (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MAI/2017/10/30/2100-0500?stp=WVS&show=call&order=wtt&toc=ZZ)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 09, 2017, 06:17:27 pm
A summary of the alterations taking place as a result of the Christmas blockade this year (Crossrail Stage M):

1) To facilitate the new Crossrail lines there will be changes to the layout between Royal Oak and Portobello Junction:
  • At Paddington line 6 will be truncated at Royal Oak with a 30mph crossover to/from Line 5.
  • The formation of the current line 6 beyond that point will be the CRL Westbound Line as far as Westbourne Park.
  • Beyond that the formation becomes the CRL Eastbound Line as far as Portobello Junction.
  • The two main Crossrail running lines will be supplemented by a through turnback loop (Turnback A) and two turnback sidings (B and C)

These alterations will mean the layout between Paddington and Kensal Green is slightly restricted on what is available now until Crossrail trains start running at the end of 2019.

2) Iver Up Loop points will be renewed with a higher speed turnout ready for re-opening of the loop at a later date.

3) Flashing signals will be provided at T548 and T544 for when a route is set from Up Relief to Up Main at Slough West Junction.

In addition there are numerous other small changes to signals, route indications, and permissible speeds.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: W5tRailfinder on November 12, 2017, 09:39:29 pm
With Crossrail ridiculously claiming that track laying was officially complete on September 14, I wonder how they will report this work being completed. The major railway publications accepted the Crossrail press release without checking the facts.

For those interested I found the following PDF by Googleing 'ETCS' and 'CROSSRAIL', which has track and signalling layouts at Westbourne Park, and an explanation of the transitions between signalling systems.

https://www.networkrailconsulting.com/news-and-publications/publications/etcs-and-cbtc-interfaces-crossrail-signalling/download

Sometime in the future, according to a track plan, there also needs to be a new facing crossover in the Up Main to Down Relief at Kensal Green (after signal SN120). This will permit Elizabeth Line trains on the Up Main to reach the Eastbound tunnel.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 12, 2017, 10:22:15 pm
I did post a drawing showing the final track layout way back in this very topic, but it was lost in the PHOTBUCKET fiasco.  I'll dig it out and post it again here as soon as I can...... ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: CJB666 on November 12, 2017, 11:01:42 pm
it is often suggested that freight can run off-peak or at night

the trouble with running freight off peak is that TfL seems to want regular interval frequent services throughout the day. 

All the talk about TfL wanting this or that is superfluous - I thought Hong Kong's MTR had been given the operating contract for the Tin-Lizzie Line three year's ago?

At a recent meeting concerning the progress - or rather total lack of - rebuilding Hayes & Harlington Station it appeared that it was the requirements of MTR that was delaying things there. MTR has to realise that the Tin-Lizzie Line is not an out and back Hong Kong Metro line - but is a real mainline with mixed freight / intercity / psuedo metro services / steam specials. Like their involvement with SWT and its varied inter-connected routes, MTR are going to find the challenges of running Tin-Lizzie trains vastly different to out and back Hong Kong Metro services.

And the GWR main line has two big issues that have disrupted services for years, and these look likely to continue, being: 1/ continual and consistent signal failures, and 2/ numerous disturbed individuals from local ethnic communities who take drastic action to 'solve' their problems.

And I bet MTR management haven't any experience of negotiating with such as our rail unions. In China I suspect its 'do as we say' and staff are not unionised.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on November 12, 2017, 11:25:47 pm
MTR have heavy rail experience in the UK, Sweden, Australia and Mainland China. In the UK they operated the London Overground services for nine years on lines used by freight, suburban and longer distance passenger services.

Having run the London Overground concession for nine years they would have gained plenty of experience dealing with the RMT, ASLEF and TSSA.

MTR Corporation is far more than just an 'out and back' metro operator. Not the first time you've peddled that innacurate description of them though.  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 13, 2017, 07:29:07 am
With Crossrail ridiculously claiming that track laying was officially complete on September 14, I wonder how they will report this work being completed. The major railway publications accepted the Crossrail press release without checking the facts.

Wasn’t the track laying claim referring to the tunnelled sections?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on November 13, 2017, 09:23:44 am
With Crossrail ridiculously claiming that track laying was officially complete on September 14, I wonder how they will report this work being completed. The major railway publications accepted the Crossrail press release without checking the facts.

Wasn’t the track laying claim referring to the tunnelled sections?

In the text, yes, mostly, but overzealous PR once again made nonsense of that in the headings:
Quote
Elizabeth line permanent track installation is complete
Thursday 14th September 2017
By Dagmar Dua

A significant milestone has been marked today with the official completion of the permanent track for the Elizabeth line – London’s newest railway.

Secretary of State for Transport Chris Grayling and Deputy Mayor for Transport Val Shawcross joined Crossrail Chairman Sir Terry Morgan and Chief Executive Andrew Wolstenholme 35 metres below ground, in the eastbound tunnel of the new Whitechapel Elizabeth line station – where the final rail clips were affixed to the track by Ellen McGuinness, Track Quality Control Engineer, to commemorate the milestone.

With the track fully laid, the £14.8 billion project has entered a new phase as construction trains are now able to travel the full length of both new tunnels from end to end.  A construction train completed the journey for the first time earlier this summer – entering at Plumstead in east London, passing through 9 new central station platforms and exiting at Royal Oak Portal in the west, with light at both ends of the tunnel.
And there's also the weasel content of that word "permament" - the connections at all ends will be temporary for a while. Though of course they haven't completed the permanent track that will replace those connections ...

They were also claiming to run trains through from end to end, but that only works for the two ends and Plumstead and Royal Oak. The third end at Pudding Mill Lane is still to be finished.

Odd, really. From the start, Crossrail were far too keen to put the label "Crossrail" on the tracks otherwise known as the GW Reliefs, and other associated infrastructure. Now they seem to want to dissociate themselves from anything being built for them by network Rail. I wonder why.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 13, 2017, 11:58:41 am
Here is the final track layout as previously published earlier in this topic (but since removed following the demise of PHOTOBUCKET).

As usual this drawing should be taken with a Health Warning as it may not be up to date  (e.g. I am aware that an additional crossover is going in at Paddington to allow the Royal Oak sidings to be accessed from Platform Nos.2 to 5).  If anybody would like a higher resolution copy then please send me a PM with an email address.

(http://cbrailways.co.uk/PhotoAlbumsPro/1379866239/Crossrail%20OOC%20to%20Paddington%20Final%20Layout%202_1.jpg?cache=0.8836882397594403)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on November 13, 2017, 03:54:10 pm
MTR Corporation is far more than just an 'out and back' metro operator. Not the first time you've peddled that innacurate description of them though.  ::)
Yes, and see also SWR, that other well known 'out and back metro operator' MTR are involved with.   But in any case, MTR are TfL's contractor, it will be TfL who are bidding to NR for the timetable.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: chrisr_75 on November 13, 2017, 04:06:33 pm

All the talk about TfL wanting this or that is superfluous - I thought Hong Kong's MTR had been given the operating contract for the Tin-Lizzie Line three year's ago?

At a recent meeting concerning the progress - or rather total lack of - rebuilding Hayes & Harlington Station it appeared that it was the requirements of MTR that was delaying things there. MTR has to realise that the Tin-Lizzie Line is not an out and back Hong Kong Metro line - but is a real mainline with mixed freight / intercity / psuedo metro services / steam specials. Like their involvement with SWT and its varied inter-connected routes, MTR are going to find the challenges of running Tin-Lizzie trains vastly different to out and back Hong Kong Metro services.

Do you know what a Tin Lizzie is? Can you please clarify the relevance to this topic?

Quote
2/ numerous disturbed individuals from local ethnic communities who take drastic action to 'solve' their problems.

Could you quote the source of your statistics please or is that just another sweeping generalisation?


Quote
And I bet MTR management haven't any experience of negotiating with such as our rail unions. In China I suspect its 'do as we say' and staff are not unionised.

I think you'll find most Chinese people, be they individuals or as part of a larger organisation are a lot more sophisticated, enterprising, worldly wise and intelligent than you appear to give them credit for.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 13, 2017, 05:26:59 pm
Sometime in the future, according to a track plan, there also needs to be a new facing crossover in the Up Main to Down Relief at Kensal Green (after signal SN120). This will permit Elizabeth Line trains on the Up Main to reach the Eastbound tunnel.

The crossover is to be installed over the Christmas possession, but will not be commissioned until a later date.  The signal head of SN120 has already been fitted with Junction Indicators 2 and 3 in readiness.

Also, in my summary of changes I missed the works on Royal Oak Carriage Loop lines A and B which will be electrified and brought back into use with new signals fitted at the London end along with a new crossover (already partially installed) which will allow, as others have stated previously, movements towards Platforms 1-5 rather than just Platform 1 as has been the case for many years.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 13, 2017, 06:55:59 pm
---snip---

I think you'll find most Chinese people, be they individuals or as part of a larger organisation are a lot more sophisticated, enterprising, worldly wise and intelligent than you appear to give them credit for.

Whilst I was reading your post Chris, I really thought the last word was going to be "be", instead of the last 4 words of your sentence


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on November 13, 2017, 07:30:59 pm
In any case, I can't see the rail unions' top brass putting up with any Chinese practices. They're all communists according to the Daily Mail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on November 14, 2017, 08:10:42 am

Do you know what a Tin Lizzie is? Can you please clarify the relevance to this topic?



"Lizzie" - slang for Elizabeth
"Tin" -  a closed metal container for the distribution of .....

Hence the Elizabeth line which will use metal (bodied) containers to transport contents aka people or at times sardines  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Western Pathfinder on November 14, 2017, 08:21:05 am
So nothing whatsoever to do with a Model T Ford then !.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on November 14, 2017, 01:05:55 pm
So nothing whatsoever to do with a Model T Ford then !.

Someone won't be getting a little something in the New Years Honours List...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: JackBlue on November 30, 2017, 04:29:07 pm
Hi everyone - I'm new here, please go easy on me  ;D

I've been silently following this thread for some time.  In my spare time, I have also recently visited the London Mayor's Question Time web site.  In a document titled "Answers to Questions Not Answered at Mayor's Question Time on 14 September 2017", Sadiq Khan mentions something which I had not seen anywhere else before, namely that from December 2019 onwards (once the last phase of the Elizabeth line opens), the intention is that at peak times, there will be six trains per hour stopping at Hanwell, and ten trains per hour stopping at West Ealing when travelling into Central London. 

If true, this is big news from people living near Hanwell and West Ealing stations.  Some of the information released to date, e.g. still on the official Crossrail web site as of today, mentions there would be only four lines per hour stopping at those stations from December 2019.  I don't know what other implications this might have for the timetable of the rest of the line, the off peak timetable and the timetable applicable between now and December 2019.  I also don't know if one can take this as a "fait accompli" or rather a non binding suggestion of the mayor (or TFL?) which may or may not happen in practice.

The full question and answer, together with the link to the Mayor's Question Time web site, are included below for reference.

-------
Crossrail Frequency
Question No: 2017/3713
Onkar Sahota
Further to MQ 2013/2656 & MQ 2013/2657, and given the considerable interest and concern that local residents along the route have for the future service they should expect from Crossrail; will the Mayor give reassurances to commuters using Hayes & Harlington, Southall, Hanwell, West Ealing, Ealing Broadway and Acton Mainline stations that they too will benefit from increased services at their stations as a result of the extra trains per hour being laid on West of Paddington; and will he confirm to me how many trains will serve each of these stations per hour in both directions?

Written response from the Mayor received 10/11/2017
I am pleased to say that following a review of the timetable, services on the Elizabeth line are set to be even more extensive and frequent than originally planned. This also includes plans it
to call at Terminal 5 - meaning all Heathrow Terminals will be served by the Elizabeth line.

A total of six Elizabeth line trains per hour will serve Heathrow Terminals from December 2019. Four will go to Terminals 2, 3 and 4 and two will go to Terminals 2, 3 and 5. Services will also
increase to Ealing Broadway, Southall and Hayes & Harlington. To facilitate the increase, the number of trains that will operate on the line will rise from 66 to 70.

As Elizabeth line services share track with other national rail services, TfL is working closely with Network Rail and other operators to agree the final timetable and service frequencies.

However, from December 2019 the intention is that customers from Acton Main Line stations will have four trains per hour, Ealing Broadway will have 12 trains per an hour, Hanwell will have six trains per hour and customers from West Ealing, Hayes & Harlington and Southall will have 10 trains per hour at peaks when travelling into central London.

The full timetable will be confirmed closer to the start of services.

Source:
https://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/b16054/Appendix%203%20-%20Written%20answers%20Thursday%2014-Sep-2017%2010.00%20London%20Assembly%20Mayors%20Question%20Time.pdf?T=9



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on November 30, 2017, 04:50:12 pm
Hi, JackBlue, and welcome to this forum.

I think what has happened here is that the Mayoral written answer  is just clarifying the last announcements made about July time, discussed in this thread a few pages ago, starting about here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=818.msg216774#msg216774 

AFAICT the 2 tph extra to Heathrow (all day) was effectively announced then, but without confirming exact details of the intermediate calling points.

I think you are right that the overall service patterns shown on Crossrail's own website have never been updated to reflect the July announcements, but that has been a fairly persistent problem with that site...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on November 30, 2017, 07:51:09 pm
Yes, welcome JackBlue.

The stopping patterns were known to be likely to change before those extra 2 tph to Heathrow and extension of 2 tph to Reading. And afterwards there were still some very grey areas needing to be explained. Have you seen this article in London Reconnections (https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/one-of-the-family-crossrails-transition-to-being-a-tube/)? It goes into this question in great detail - maybe excessive detail, since some of the assumptions about the "before" pattern look a bit out to me.

That article shows a stopping and pathing diagram, in which the 4 tph stopping at Hanwell and Acton are Heathrow trains, while those stopping at West Ealing are Reading ones. That looks odd, doesn't it? To get from Castle Bar Park to Heathrow (or Hanwell!) you'd have to change twice. So maybe the big increase for West Ealing in particular may reflect its role as junction for Greenford trains - from both east and west - and connecting better with them.

That diagram was taken from this rather obscure document (https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/rail/crossrail-cos/user_uploads/16.08.09_specialised_infrastructure_designation_consultation.pdf) (in which it is incidental).

There are other likely reasons for the changes. One of the ideas that has been much kicked about is whether to use "skip-stop", with several different stopping patterns. The benefit was supposed to be faster trains, hence faster gaps between the trains - which you might put non-Crossrail services into. But it's a lot easier to run (and use!) a Metros service without that complication, so I'm sure TfL/MTR have been arguing that case with NR/DfT/HAL. Plus, of course, some stations may have been growing in usage (though not on the official count figures, which do admittedly look a bit fishy for some of these stations).

But I think you are overselling how much of a fait the Mayor's may have accompli - note the the wording: "the intention is...".


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: JackBlue on December 01, 2017, 10:43:22 am
Thank you Stuving and Paul for your informative comments on this.  It makes sense that this proposed change is stopping pattern is a result of the recent announcement about service increase. 

I had seen the map highlighted by Stuving mentioning that no Heathrow trains would stop at West Ealing, which would have created fairly nonsensical situations especially for people travelling on the Greenford branch.  Some local Ealing Lib Dem councillors had also organised a petition to TfL recently when it was announced (I don't know by whom since I never saw this announcement!) that after Crossrail, trains from West Ealing to Heathrow would reduce from 2tph currently to 1tph (vs. 0tph on the map pointed out by Stuving!).  TfL then responded to the petition by saying they had no plans to reduce the level of service between "West Ealing, Hanwell and Heathrow" from that which operates currently, and the petition was closed.

http://www.ealinglibdems.org.uk/westealingtrains

With information on the final timetable coming in bits and pieces from different directions and sources, this is all fairly confusing at the moment.  But I guess not altogether surprising given the complexities involved in putting together a final timetable which works in the best possible way.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on December 08, 2017, 01:21:53 pm
Here's an item mainly (though not solely) for TaplowGreen's benefit - it appears only to have been picked up by CityAM (http://www.cityam.com/277126/crossrail-latest-contract-awarded-revamp-four-elizabeth):
Quote
Crossrail latest: Contract awarded for revamp of four Elizabeth Line stations
Rebecca Smith

Transport for London (TfL) has awarded a contract for works on four future Elizabeth Line stations, as the £14.8bn Crossrail project edges closer to completion.

TfL said today that the contract has been awarded to J. Murphy & Sons Limited to deliver step-free access and station improvements at Hanwell, Iver, Langley and Taplow stations on the west of the Elizabeth Line route.

Howard Smith, operations director for the Elizabeth Line, said that the four stations had not previously been accessible for some passengers.

"The Elizabeth Line will transform the lives of local customers for years to come connecting them to new destinations in London and beyond," Smith added.

Improvements planned include new lifts and footbridges to Elizabeth Line platforms, while an entirely new station building is being constructed at Iver.

The plan is for all 41 stations on the Elizabeth Line to have step-free access when the new railway is fully open in December 2019, and that runs alongside a target set by mayor Sadiq Khan to have 40 per cent of the London Underground network step-free by 2022.
...
Station improvements

Hanwell:
    Two new lifts to provide step-free access to the platforms
    Refurbished entrances and subway

Iver:
    Three new lifts providing step-free access to the platforms
    New entrance including new ticket hall, ticket machines and information screens

Langley:
    Three new lifts and a new footbridge providing step-free access to the platforms
    Refurbished ticket hall including new ticket gates and information screens

Taplow:
    Two new lifts and a footbridge providing step-free access to platforms
    Refurbished ticket hall and information screens
    Refurbished waiting rooms and toilets

I guess you can try to infer something specific from the difference between Langley's "new lifts and a new footbridge" and Taplow's "new lifts and a footbridge".


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on December 08, 2017, 03:55:14 pm
Have recently heard that Taplow old footbridge may not come back, Arguments between DfT, TFL and Network Rail,

Before its accident Taplow was going to have 2 lifts connecting platforms 3 & 4 at the East End  and the old footbridge to serve the South car park. If old footbridge is not restored then another temporary (permanent) bridge will be required at the West end
 connecting all platforms to the South Carpark whilst the current temporary bridge is removed and TFL builds a permanent two lift bridge in it's place. TFL don't want to build a three lift bridge. Hence the arguments.

Edited


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on December 22, 2017, 02:00:07 pm
An update on Elizabeth Line progress: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20171013-agenda-item13.pdf


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 22, 2017, 05:41:40 pm
On time and on budget then still.  But lots still to do...


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on December 22, 2017, 05:55:44 pm
On time and on budget then still. 

Budgets and time are abstract concepts  :) .................... especially so for railway projects  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on January 03, 2018, 08:30:11 pm
Heathrow are back to arguing about their costs with ORR. Having been told to forget about charging to recover the cost of building their line, they have now applied for permission to charge for their indirect costs:
Quote
For the purposes of the Application HAL is seeking full recovery of the non-eligible track access costs (or fixed costs) incurred in providing access to the Heathrow Rail Infrastructure to Train Operating Companies. HAL has produced detailed cost analysis (based on scheduled train movements) which indicate that total relevant non-eligible costs are a maximum of £5.8 million per annum.

There's an ORR consultation (http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/26166/consultation-on-application-for-consent-to-obtain-recovery-of-costs-incurred-in-operation-of-the-heathrow-rail-infrastructure.pdf), and HAL's introductory page, with links to a load of documents (https://www.heathrow.com/company/company-news-and-information/rail-regulation), though you won't find anything about what those costs are - they only told ORR and TfL. One link on that page (https://www.heathrow.com/file_source/Company/Static/PDF/Companynewsandinformation/Heathrow_ORR_mark-up_application_Non-confidential_annexes.zip) leads to a zip-load of supporting documents, one of which might actually be interesting! It's the one called "Annex 7 - Insitas Report.pdf". The eponymous consultants asked users of HEX & HC, and the Heathrow tube, whether they would use Crossrail, under a number of assumptions.

What I'm puzzling over is that the existing charges (cf their price list) include a Fixed Track Access Charge, which is what they are asking for now. And as far as I can make out the current rate raises roughly £5.8M from HX and HC. The Jacobs Report (also in that zip file) gives per-passenger figures of 79p (HX) and 90p (Liz), but inter-relating all of these depends on the assumed passenger and train numbers implied by those prices. I think the passengers are about 7M pa total, and the trains about 180/day, but it's hard to be sure....

Most of the words in HAL's application and the Jacobs Report are about elasticity - whether the extra charge will affect passenger numbers. I suspect that gives a false impression: that they are trying to charge as much as the market will bear. It is presumably just something they have to consider, and as it's complicated there are lots of words, and it's not been kept confidential unlike the real justification of the level of charge. They may well be angling for as much as they think they can get past ORR, though.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: DidcotPunter on January 31, 2018, 05:37:26 pm
Looks like there are major problems at Crossrail which may delay the launch of services in the central section

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/elizabeth-line-hit-with-major-challenges-after-electrical-explosion-pushes-back-testing

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/crossrail-chiefs-warn-that-14bn-elizabeth-line-could-blow-its-budget-and-open-late-a3754356.html

There appear to be software issues with the class 345s and an explosion at the national grid feeder station at Pudding Mill Lane by the GE tunnel portal has delayed train testing. It looks like they might also blow their budget.

Quote
The energisation of eastern sections of the Elizabeth Line was pushed back in November after a transformer meant to connect separate electrical appliances exploded, causing testing to be delayed.

The problems, coupled with the complex nature of the project and the scale on which it is being built, have prompted bosses to warn about the costing and timescale of the Elizabeth Line.

In a meeting with mayor of London Sadiq Khan, Crossrail chairman Sir Terry Morgan admitted that the work was “very close” to exceeding its budget after explaining the issues with testing.

Morgan said energisation of the line in the east of London, to be later used for testing, was on course to be completed before electrical issues hampered progress.

“We opened up the energisation of the east side of our railway, which was always going to be our platform for testing this train, in November,” he explained.

“It’s relatively standard but it had to interface between our own power needs and Network Rail’s, it got switched on – and exploded.”

The chairman appeared at the meeting alongside Mark Wild, London Underground managing director who oversees the Elizabeth Line, as the two have been jointly overseeing sections of the project.

But he admitted that neither of the parties could fix the problem any faster, adding: “I can’t think of anything more that we can do together to resolve the issue.”

Other issues had also pinned back some progress of the project, although both Wild and Morgan were confident that the planned timelines were possible.

However, the London Underground MD added: “We can still do it, but it’s very, very hard and complex and it brings with it cost pressures as well.”

The continuation of energisation processes was expected to be underway within days of the meeting, which took place yesterday, possibly as soon as last night – although Crossrail has not released any details of the operations.

Khan called an end to further discussion of the specific problems but said it was for “commercially sensitive reasons” rather than to hide details.

Energisation is a key part of the next phase of the Elizabeth Line, and official testing of the track is expected to begin soon after the electrical work has been completed.

For other parts of the project, Wild said things were going to plan. He confirmed that ongoing efforts alongside Bombardier to improve the stability of trains was proving extremely difficult but was progressing well.]

Rail Technology Magazine 31/01/18


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on January 31, 2018, 07:07:09 pm
Oooh, err...  A "failure" was reported earlier, but not such a loud one.

It's hard to work out just what went bang, since "a transformer meant to connect separate electrical appliances" doesn't mean anything to me - any suggestions?

However, at least the finger-pointing can start. One quote from Terry Morgan that was inexplicably left out of that piece, but in the Evening Standard's, was this: “We eventually found out it had been designed incorrectly.” And this (from Construction Index in 2013) is the relevant contract:
Quote
ATC, Costain’s joint venture with Alstom and TSO, has won a £300m contract for the design, fit-out and commission the railway systems in Crossrail's tunnel network.

Under the contract, ATC will design and install track, overhead lines and mechanical and electrical equipment to fit out the 21km of twin tunnels currently being bored under the streets of London. The contract covers the entire tunnelled and surface sections of the Crossrail route between Royal Oak, Pudding Mill Lane and Plumstead Portals.

Design work will commence immediately, with the fit-out works starting in 2014. Costain and Alstom have also won the £15m contract for the design, construction and commissioning of the system that will provide traction power for the trains in the central tunnelled section of the Crossrail scheme. Work will involve the construction of several auto-transformer stations and a feeder station site at Pudding Mill Lane to provide a 25 kV supply to the overhead line equipment that will power the new Crossrail trains.

Costain is also constructing for National Grid the new cable tunnels to provide power to the other Crossrail feeder station at Kensal Green. Costain’s other Crossrail projects include Bond Street and Paddington stations and works at Eleanor Street and Mile End Park.

Of course the electrical system design overall is down to NR and perhaps other design contractors, but somewhere within that lot must lie the "it" (perhaps the transformer, perhaps its connections) Terry Morgan was talking about.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on January 31, 2018, 07:19:10 pm
Of course the electrical system design overall is down to NR and perhaps other design contractors, but somewhere within that lot must lie the "it" (perhaps the transformer, perhaps its connections) Terry Morgan was talking about.

The electrical design is not totally NR (although NR does not design it specifies and accepts a design) , there are Crossrail specific circuit breakers and auto transformers at each end which are Crossrail specified and contracted.

It is unusual but not unheard of for large electrical plant to fail on initial energisation; that's why it is energised when not many people are about and exclusion zones are set up.           When things go bang its usually within the first 30 seconds.

If its a 400/25-0-25 kV transformer failed this will have been installed and commissioned by National Grid.

I am sure they will hit the first train running date it might not be at a full public service perhaps outside of the peaks only


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on January 31, 2018, 11:58:34 pm
The Evening Standard report (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/crossrail-chiefs-warn-that-14bn-elizabeth-line-could-blow-its-budget-and-open-late-a3754356.html) (of 31/1/18) had a couple of other things in it too:
Quote
Engineers last night failed in their third attempt to switch on the power. The first test trains will now not start running on the new tracks until next month at the earliest.

Crossrail chiefs are set to switch to “Plan B” in May, when Heathrow Connect services are incorporated. The Connect trains will have to remain in service as signalling problems are likely to prevent Crossrail trains getting all the way to the airport.

Sir Terry said he was “very confident” the line, on which construction began in 2009, would be able to open by the end of December. He said: “We are very close on the funding envelope, and we’re certainly going to have to continue to work together to make sure we get this railway running this year.

“I don’t know what more we can do. When we’ve had problems we’ve scratched our head and tried to find the best people in the world. We have either got them, or, if we haven’t got them, we have gone and got them.

“It was always going to be a very difficult time but the team is still very confident they can get there.”

For some of that, and especially the signalling, Tuesday's TfL board agenda (https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/board-20180130-item10-elizabeth-line.pdf) is a bit more factual:
Quote
4.5 In May 2018, TfL Rail will commence operation to Heathrow, taking over from the current Heathrow Connect service and operating to Terminals 2/3 and Terminal 4.

4.6 For Heathrow services Bombardier is fitting the Class 345 trains with European Train Control System (ETCS) signalling equipment, which is required for operation on the Heathrow branch. Testing continues at Melton test track in Leicestershire, but progress is behind plan due to immaturity and instability of train software. The first train testing in the Heathrow tunnels took place on 12 January 2018 and, in addition, the wayside and train elements are due to be tested in a laboratory environment at Charleroi in Belgium.

4.7 The development and assurance of the train signalling and software remains the most significant single risk to timely commencement of Stage 2 services. In case Bombardier is unable to complete testing in time for May 2018, a contingency plan has been developed with TfL operating the existing Class 360 units to provide a two train an hour service to Heathrow, augmented with a two train per hour service using the Class 345 trains (without using ETCS) between Paddington and Hayes and Harlington. Should this contingency be required, it is expected that the planned service would be in place by autumn 2018.

4.8 At Christmas 2017, Network Rail made significant progress in updating the signalling system on the lines out of Paddington. It also successfully installed the Driver Only Operation CCTV system at stations on the Heathrow route and will undertake the necessary work to extend the bay platform at Hayes and Harlington Station with a planned completion of April 2018.

4.9 At Heathrow, work took place at Christmas 2017 to facilitate Oyster and Contactless ticketing facilities as well as to roll out new ticket vending machines ready for May 2018. Work is also being delivered to update and amend signage and customer information.

4.10 The 14 hectare Old Oak Common depot will be the main base for the Elizabeth line train fleet. The first Class 345 was hauled into the depot on 7 November 2017 and the first stage of the depot’s signalling system was commissioned in December 2017. The depot was energised on 9 January 2018.

4.11 From December 2018, passenger services will operate in the central tunnel, between Paddington (new underground platforms) and Abbey Wood. From this date services will be referred to as the Elizabeth line.

4.12 The first test train was brought into the tunnel on 28 October 2017 and hauled to Abbey Wood. The next stage is energisation of the south east section of the infrastructure. This has been delayed by the failure of high voltage transformer equipment at Pudding Mill Lane. Once power is on, ‘dynamic testing’ (operating one, and subsequently more, trains in the tunnel to sequentially test the infrastructure) will get underway. Dynamic testing will start in the section between Abbey Wood and Canary Wharf and will then be extended to encompass the rest of the central section. Significant work is underway with installation of power, communications and signalling systems critical to extending dynamic testing.

4.13 The internal Master Operational Handover Schedule setting out the very detailed sequence of testing, commissioning handover and operational testing through to public opening is currently being updated.

4.14 For Stage 3, the Class 345 train requires further development to incorporate Communications Based Train Control (CBTC) signalling, added to the two other systems that will already be fitted to the train. The software for this stage is also under test on the Melton test track. Given the critical importance of train signalling, regular reviews continue with Bombardier, the project team and, ultimately, with the Managing Director London Underground (LU) and the TfL Commissioner.

The emboldened bit is TfL's "plan B" for not having ETCS working. Apparently it's all going to be sorted by December, with all those nasty bugs guaranteed to be fixed. So, if you plan going to Heathrow that way, are you reassured?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on February 03, 2018, 12:59:27 am
This report from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42921305) has a couple of new (or different) bits in it:
Quote
Crossrail: Concerns over project as completion draws nearer
Tom Edwards Transport correspondent, London
    2 February 2018
...
There are serious concerns about the power or "energisation" (turning on high voltage power) of the scheme after a design error caused equipment at Pudding Mill Lane sub-station to blow up on 11 November 2017, when two voltage transformers failed.

Crossrail has since confirmed the second attempt at "energisation" was successful in the early hours of Thursday morning.

Despite the progress, testing will now be postponed until the end of February.
...

Having first noted that Tom Edwards may not be the most reliable of sources, if there were two transformers that blew up, but not knowing which two, that still doesn't really tell us how major the issue is. But at least, if it was a case of fourth time lucky at turning on the power, that is something to start from. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: broadgage on February 03, 2018, 03:18:01 am
The term "voltage transformer" may mean different things to different people, especially to reporters. However the accepted usage in electrical engineering is a transformer that is of very limited capacity and that is provided to power low voltage instruments, relays, pilot lamps and the like from a high voltage system.
The output can be any safer and easy to handle voltage, very often 110 volts.

As a simplified example, one might need to know the actual voltage on a nominal 25kv or 50kv system. Voltmeters for such voltages are not common, nor is it desirable to bring such high voltages into control rooms, so it would be usual to provide a voltage transformer that provides a 110 volt output in order to operate a standard type of voltmeter, that therefore indirectly indicates the actual voltage in the high voltage equipment.

Similar arguments apply to watt meters, KWH meters, pilot lamps, and relays, standard types operating at say 110 volts are employed via a voltage transformer.

Voltage transformers are not intended to supply significant power, but are sometimes used to supply limited emergency lighting in high voltage substations.

The failure of anything connected to a high voltage system is a matter of some concern, but voltage transformers are arguably at the lower end of the scale of degree of concern.
Causes of failure include defective manufacture, connection to the wrong voltage on the HV side, short circuit or gross overload on the LV side, or in the case of oil filled units omitting to fill them with oil !

However knowing the standard of reporting about technical matters, it could be almost anything that was "blown up"


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on February 03, 2018, 08:50:55 am
Perhaps they just wrongly edited the word “high” out, from an original statement that read “high voltage” transformers.  it could also of course be Crossrail’s PR department who lost the detail...

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on February 03, 2018, 02:45:53 pm
Appears from another Forum that all 345s have been taken out of service.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-345-progress.120221/page-59 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-345-progress.120221/page-59)

Also lack of toilets has reach Reading one of its MPs is taking up the issue.

Interesting that C2Cs version will have 3 toilets


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: W5tRailfinder on February 03, 2018, 03:21:26 pm
In May, the 4tph TfL Rail service Paddington to Heathrow T4 was also taking over the role of the 4tph T2/3 to T4 shuttle. If TfL Rail is only going to run a 2tph service with class 360s from Pad to T4, are they going to run a 2tph shuttle or will Hex provide it?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: paul7755 on February 04, 2018, 12:00:14 am
Also lack of toilets has reach Reading one of its MPs is taking up the issue...
Has he really just realised? 
What can he do now?

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: broadgage on February 04, 2018, 01:19:43 am
Also lack of toilets has reach Reading one of its MPs is taking up the issue...
Has he really just realised? 
What can he do now?

Paul

I rather doubt that much will be done, but the downgrade to "no toilet, metro style" stock is regrettable in view of the length of some journeys.
I suppose that toilets MIGHT be retrofitted, but would not count on this.

The future of outer suburban stock is "metro style" i.e. designed primarily for standing and with limited seating.
The future of long distance stock is like old suburban multiple units, with number of seats maximised over all else.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: didcotdean on February 04, 2018, 10:26:16 am
It seems that TfL treats the Elizabeth Line as a tube service. With capacity on steroids maybe, but a tube service nonetheless. I have seen statements that ultimately it will be corporately responsible through LUL. In that regard, Reading is its Amersham.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: TonyK on February 04, 2018, 03:15:56 pm
Also lack of toilets has reach Reading one of its MPs is taking up the issue...
Has he really just realised? 
What can he do now?

Paul

Very little. He's got nothing to go on.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on February 06, 2018, 05:17:16 pm
The first mention of the "big bang" was in the Elizabeth Line Operational Readiness and Integration report to TfL's Programmes and Investment Committee of 12 December 2017:

Quote
5.12 The next stage is energisation of the south east section of the infrastructure. This is now scheduled to commence in January 2018. This delay was caused by the failure of high voltage transformer equipment at Pudding Mill Lane during initial testing...

Now that was noted on this thread, with this comment:

On time and on budget then still.  But lots still to do...

Somehow we all missed the implications of that "failure".

The word "exploded" was first used by Terry Morgan at the TfL Board meeting of 30 January 2018, as reported in this thread via Rail Technology Magazine, Evening Standard, the BBC, and in the relevant agenda item report. The minutes of this meeting are also now available (or were, but have now vanished!), but so brief as to be quite unilluminating.

So, having been puzzling over the extreme vagueness of the reported words defining just what exploded,  I looked out Terry Morgan's actual words. The board meeting video (https://www.london.gov.uk/transport-london-board-2018-01-30) is still available on line, and it does contain a few more comments of his I've not yet seen elsewhere. See next post for a transcript.




Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on February 06, 2018, 05:19:04 pm
Here, as a public service, is what I heard of the TfL Board meeting as recorded. Note that while Terry Morgan obviously started with a prepared statement, most of this was unscripted, so has the fluffs and dodgy grammar you'd expect. I've left out false starts immediately reworded, and some repetition.

The Crossrail team are three people:

Mark Wild     Managing Director, London Underground
Sir Terry Morgan CBE     Chairman, Crossrail Limited
Howard Smith     Director Operations, Crossrail Limited

So TM was reporting the construction and testing, rather than the implications for TfL and service start-up. I've only covered Pudding Mill Lane here, but obviously there are other problems - mainly signalling, signalling, and signalling.

First, the report of progress to the Board (2:39):

Quote
I can’t think of anything more that we can do together to resolve the issue that exists, which is that we, as I reported last month*, we opened up the energisation of the east side of our railway, which was always going to be our platform for testing this train, in November. It’s a relatively standard piece of kit, it had to interface though between our power needs and Network Rail.

It got switched on, and exploded, and Mark is quite right is that first of all why did it happen, and to be frank we also had to go through how did it explode and are we satisfied that that couldn’t repeat itself in the way that it did. So that took a lot more work to be frank than we anticipated, but the current plan is we energise tonight. If that works, then we start testing towards the end of February.
*To the Programmes and Investment Committee meeting on 12 December 2017.

Later, he fielded a question about the explosion in particular (2:50):
Quote
I’m very unhappy with what happened; this is a factory-built unit, fully tested, there’s nothing more we could have done, it was almost like a plug-in type facility. It has some peculiarities because of the connections [-] have to make. And its mode of failure was a surprise to us, and when we actually eventually found out it had been designed incorrectly. And so this is a very complicated bit of kit built in a factory that we basically had to rebuild on site and it’s taken longer than I wanted it to.

Tonight we’ve all got fingers crossed it’s going to work.

We’ve got a similar facility to the west, at Old Oak Common, we think we’ve taken all the precautions to make sure it can’t be replicated at that site. It looks OK, but the reasons for all the emphasis are on the east is to reflect that fact that’s where we want to test our trains.

We have a free test track, basically, out to Abbey Wood, and we want to start getting some testing done on the trains.

He (with Mark Wild) was questioned further about the suppliers, and safety issues (2:52):

Quote
These are quite international companies that have let us down on the energisation issue and there is nowhere else we can go in terms of making sure that they are aware, of both their reputations and the consequences of what they are doing to us right now.

We’ve come to the conclusion it can’t fail like that again because it was designed incorrectly.

We will not switch it on until we are absolutely satisfied that we are confident it will work.

After this the subject was continued in private, since he was asked "what's our comeback on the factory", so names would have to be named. Comments follow in next post.



Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on February 06, 2018, 05:26:31 pm
So, what to make of those TfL reports? here's what I think.

At no point is it said or written that a transformer exploded. It was "high voltage transformer equipment", and that's not going to be a grid transformer since (as ET noted earlier) they belong to NG and are not in the ATFS. In any case, they will be protected against a truly massive fault current on their outputs, and are of a standard design.

You might think it would be an autotransformer, but there are none of those in this site. That may seem odd, but I can see why it might be. While at least one of the grid supplies is present, there is no need for an AT - the local supply is balanced already. Since the grid transformers are attached directly to the grid, not a branch off it, they are "always on" - loss of one of those would take out a big chunk of east London. At other ATFSs, like Didcot, there are ATs to be used when a line away from there is not fed from the Didcot end (perhaps related to the length of the 2x25kV feed).

When Sir Terry (TM) said "we’ve got a similar facility to the west, at Old Oak Common" he must have meant Kensal Green ATFS - and there's no AT there either. The intended standard operation is for the tunnel and the GEML to be fed from PML, as two separate (out of phase) sections, while the GWML is fed from KG. So one of KG's transformers is just a spare.

Note that Crossrail procured the substations at PML ATFS, Stepney Green SATS, Plumstead ATS, and Westbourne Park ATS (the planned Custom House ATS seem so have vanished). Kensal Green was Network Rail's responsibility, and (like the other GW sites) uses switchgear in ground-mounted frameworks. TfL's outdoor sites use SMOS (switchgear on posts), so the design commonality is pretty low. AIUI, despite being a bunch of separate items, it would have been assembled and tested at the factory and then brought to site and reassembled, hence TM's comments about "a factory-built unit, fully tested".

So my conclusion (albeit still tentative) is that it was the ATFS - i.e. the switchgear - that blew up. As to the implications of "its mode of failure was a surprise to us", presumably it was a current path that by-passed the protection of the switchgear itself. Or maybe just that at least one team member was seen raiding the emergency clean underwear cabinet afterwards. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on February 06, 2018, 06:23:47 pm
From my experience as a traction power distribution commissioning engineer, I have first energised quite a number of 25kV bits of switchgear and transformers also quite a bit on the DC 33kV network there are a number of devices that can fail when first charged.

Voltage Transformers being one of them, these physically small devices have to manage the electrical stresses of the system voltage, its not unknown for them to pop.

I cannot help feeling there are other pressures going on within or being applied to the project team delivering the distribution equipment


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on February 10, 2018, 11:14:45 am
An interesting article in 'London Reconections' giving an update on the current position (too long to quote here):
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/crossrail-cutting-fine/


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on February 10, 2018, 01:36:21 pm
An interesting article in 'London Reconections' giving an update on the current position (too long to quote here):
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/crossrail-cutting-fine/

Thanks for posting this link SandTEngineer;  I think this is a major project that is lacking an overall lead multi discipline Commissioning Engineering Director.

Often the focus on a project is the pouring of concrete, laying track putting signals up and OLE ............ the commissioning and integration is left often most of the project budget both in terms of £ and time has been spent so the pressure is on to just get it switched on and run trains


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on February 10, 2018, 06:07:10 pm
Agreed.  I'm not at all supprised the signalling integration on the Heathrow Branch is proving difficult.  Trying to get four different train protection and warning systems (AWS; TPWS; GW ATP; ETCS), all in a nice EMC tunnel, not to interfere with each other onboard the Class 345 trains must be proving to be an almost impossible task...... ::) :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: CyclingSid on February 10, 2018, 07:11:58 pm
A change of topic, and apologies if it has been answered elsewhere (or is blindingly obvious to some). Presumably Oyster will be used on the Elizabeth Line, out to Reading? If so would it be usable on GWR services?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: didcotdean on February 10, 2018, 07:54:27 pm
An even more intriguing question might be whether holders of Freedom Passes and 60+ London Oyster cards will be able to travel free of charge to Reading on Elizabeth Line services. These are valid across the whole TfL network at present, out to the likes of Amersham.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on February 10, 2018, 08:16:47 pm
A change of topic, and apologies if it has been answered elsewhere (or is blindingly obvious to some). Presumably Oyster will be used on the Elizabeth Line, out to Reading? If so would it be usable on GWR services?

The main gateline (at least) at Reading has had some kind of touch pad added. It's covered up so you can't see any logo on it. I assume its position - below the  ticket entry slot - is dictated by the design of these gates though it looks awkward, and perhaps  less prominent.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on February 10, 2018, 08:25:09 pm
Agreed.  I'm not at all supprised the signalling integration on the Heathrow Branch is proving difficult.  Trying to get four different train protection and warning systems (AWS; TPWS; GW ATP; ETCS), all installed in a nice EMC tunnel, not to interfere with each other onboard the Class 345 trains must be proving to be an almost impossible task...... ::) :P

That is a little pessimistic, if only because there is no TPWS on the Heathrow lines. And certainly NR and Crossrail don't find that a scary prospect at all:
Quote
The Heathrow Airport lines lend themselves to being the first to have ETCS; it is a simple stretch of line, and has limited interfaces with other Crossrail works. Paddington to Heathrow Portals is complex, and being altered to accommodate Crossrail and IEP services. This makes for more challenging implementation, hence the requirement to have a ready Plan B.

There is absolute confidence that ETCS will be delivered in the Heathrow Tunnel area (Heathrow Portal to Heathrow Airport Terminal Stations). As this section of the route is not complex and is not being significantly modified, provision in time for planned Crossrail services is a much lower risk; the area can be modified in full separation from the operational Main Line.

That Plan B was TPWS+ (additional signals equipped with loops) for which NR/Crossrail applied to ORR for  a derogation from Regulation 6 of RSR99. that was in late 2015, but there is no sign it was granted, which may explain the current plan C.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on February 11, 2018, 09:22:05 am
Yes, I know there is no TPWS in the tunnel section.  I was referring to the onboard train equipment (but didn't make that quite clear; appologies for that).


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on February 20, 2018, 07:03:30 pm
Class 345 testing occurred between Paddington and Reading last night


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: lordgoata on February 21, 2018, 08:25:10 am
Ah, that explains it, I thought I spotted something odd in the sidings at Maidenhead this morning ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on February 21, 2018, 10:19:27 am
A class 345 or a forum member?


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Phantom on February 21, 2018, 11:57:50 am
Class 345 testing occurred between Paddington and Reading last night

Saw the photo of it parked up at Paddington, the front of it looked like some kind of space helmet out of a Star Wars film


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on February 21, 2018, 12:23:44 pm
THere is a video I saw on twitter of it outside Maidenhead in the siding there. In daylight....It had run there in daylight.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 08, 2018, 06:47:25 am
A change of topic, and apologies if it has been answered elsewhere (or is blindingly obvious to some). Presumably Oyster will be used on the Elizabeth Line, out to Reading? If so would it be usable on GWR services?

The main gateline (at least) at Reading has had some kind of touch pad added. It's covered up so you can't see any logo on it. I assume its position - below the  ticket entry slot - is dictated by the design of these gates though it looks awkward, and perhaps  less prominent.

Those thigh-level scanners are optical - so must be phone screen/QR readers. If Oyster or other contactless readers are fitted, they will presumably go in the usual place on the top, and that might explain why these optical ones are where they are.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 10, 2018, 03:33:34 pm
Network Rail and Crossrail have announced (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/network-rail-completes-major-rail-upgrades-for-the-elizabeth-line) the completion of the third and last connection of the tunnel to the railway network at Pudding Mill Lane:
Quote
Network Rail completes major rail upgrades for the Elizabeth line
Tuesday 6th March 2018
By Network Rail Press Office

  • Network Rail has successfully connected the existing rail network with the Elizabeth line tunnels at Pudding Mill Lane, Plumstead and Westbourne Park
  • Upgrade of Gidea Park sidings completed to accommodate the full length Elizabeth line trains
  • Signalling systems have been updated from Pudding Mill Lane to Shenfield to support Elizabeth line services

A series of major milestones in the Crossrail project have been reached with Network Rail completing further railway upgrades along the Elizabeth line route.

At Pudding Mill Lane where the Elizabeth line tunnels emerge and meet with the national rail infrastructure, Network Rail has completed track work to allow trains to enter and exit the new tunnels from the existing above ground railway. Alongside new track, this required new overhead power lines and signalling equipment. This means that all three Elizabeth line portals (Plumstead, Westbourne Park and Pudding Mill Lane) are now connected to the existing railway.

Further up the line, Network Rail has finished work to re-model the sidings at Gidea Park. Over the last ten weeks, teams of engineers have worked around the clock to upgrade overhead lines, signals and track to enable the sidings to accommodate the full length, 200 metre long, Elizabeth lines trains which will be stabled here. The work involved:
  • The renewal of over 3.2km of track, 8,000 tonnes of new ballast and 45,000 concrete sleepers with four new longer sidings replacing five life-expired sidings
  • The installation of new overhead line equipment and signals using 37 steel piles
  • Building driver walkways and installing lighting and track drainage


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: eightf48544 on March 15, 2018, 04:31:43 pm
345 029  seen at Maidenhead on 5Z43, 15:42 Maidenhead to Friars J.  on Wed 14th March.

Must be back in service have to look at RTT and maybe get down to Taplow.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 16, 2018, 08:49:23 am
Network Rail and Crossrail have announced (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/network-rail-completes-major-rail-upgrades-for-the-elizabeth-line) the completion of the third and last connection of the tunnel to the railway network at Pudding Mill Lane:
A pudding mill sounds like an invention of Monty Python!


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Western Pathfinder on March 16, 2018, 08:54:42 am
Network Rail and Crossrail have announced (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/network-rail-completes-major-rail-upgrades-for-the-elizabeth-line) the completion of the third and last connection of the tunnel to the railway network at Pudding Mill Lane:
A pudding mill sounds like an invention of Monty Python!
Pudding Mill Lane just down the road from the Jam buttie mines ?.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 16, 2018, 09:25:11 am
Network Rail and Crossrail have announced (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/network-rail-completes-major-rail-upgrades-for-the-elizabeth-line) the completion of the third and last connection of the tunnel to the railway network at Pudding Mill Lane:
A pudding mill sounds like an invention of Monty Python!
Pudding Mill Lane just down the road from the Jam buttie mines ?.

In fact it's close to the 2012 Olympic stadium of course, though whether that could be called a pudding mill (i.e. a machine for breaking down puddings for disposal) is moot.

Right at the end of that stadium site, under the warm-up track, and squeezed in between the City Mill River (a canal) and the Northern Outfall Sewer, there used to be a soap factory. The Norther Outfall is at that point well above ground (and river) level, in what I can only call as cloacaduct. My Mum's uncle Ern worked there most of his life: it was called T H Harris though (perhaps topically) it was owned by Unilever from 1929. It was previously owned by the African & Eastern Trade Corporation, as an outlet for its palm oil from Nigeria ... which is why Unilever bought AETC (by then part of the United Africa Company Ltd.)


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Adelante_CCT on March 16, 2018, 01:31:31 pm
Some info has been released about crossrail pricing including the Heathrow spur.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/elizabeth-line-fares-to-match-tube-prices-but-heathrow-passengers-set-to-pay-premium-a3791496.html?amp


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on March 16, 2018, 02:04:17 pm
The TfL Press Release (https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line) is here

Quote
TfL confirms that Elizabeth line pay as you go fares in central London will be the same as the equivalent Tube fare - saving money for millions of Londoners

The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, and TfL have today announced that Elizabeth line pay as you go fares within Zones 1-6 will be the same as the fares on existing TfL services, ensuring affordable travel for millions of Londoners when the railway opens through central London in December this year.

All customer service and travel information on the line will be fully integrated with TfL's other services, with daily fare capping for Oyster and contactless applying.

Today's announcement means that journeys on the brand-new railway from east London stations such as Whitechapel or Canary Wharf through central London to stations in the west such as Paddington, Southall or Ealing Broadway will cost the same as an equivalent Tube journey.

As a result, passengers on the Elizabeth line will reap the benefits of the Mayor's TfL fares freeze, currently benefitting 4 million transport journeys across London every day.

Brand-new railway

Customers will also see savings well in advance of the Elizabeth line opening in December. From Sunday 20 May, the current Heathrow Connect service between Heathrow Terminals 2/3, Heathrow Terminal 4 and Paddington will be transferred to TfL.

While TfL zones do not apply to these Heathrow fares, for the first time, customers will be able to use pay as you go with Oyster and contactless across the route all the way from Paddington to Heathrow. Fares will also be cheaper or in line with the current standard fares charged for Heathrow Connect.

Standard zonal fares will continue to apply for journeys between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington, with special single fares applying for journeys to and from Heathrow Airport.

Example fares include:
•A journey from Heathrow Airport to Ealing Broadway currently costs £8.00 using Heathrow Connect. From May, this will fall to £7.30 (peak) and £6.00 (off-peak)
•A journey from Canary Wharf to Heathrow Airport currently costs £13.20 using the Tube and Heathrow Connect. From May, this will fall to £12.10 (peak) and £10.10 (off-peak)
•A journey from Shepherds Bush to Heathrow Airport via Ealing Broadway currently costs £12.50 using the Central line and Heathrow Connect. From May, this will fall to £7.30 (peak) and £6.00 (off-peak)

As part of the integrated service, daily fare capping for Oyster and contactless and weekly fare capping for contactless will apply, with travelcards that cover Zone 6 able to be used on services to Heathrow.

For daily and weekly capping, Heathrow will be designated as 'Zone 6', meaning that 'pay as you go' customers travelling to and from the Airport from within Zones 1-6 will never pay more than the daily cap of £12.50.

Significantly reduce the cost

All concessions which offer free or discounted travel, including the Zip Card, 60+ photocards and Veterans Concessionary Travel, will be valid on the Elizabeth line.

This will significantly reduce the cost for families travelling to Heathrow via Paddington, and mean that, from May 2018, a family of four (two adults and two children under 11) will save more than £10 travelling from Paddington to Heathrow.

Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, said: 'The opening of the Elizabeth Line this year will transform travel across London, with new state-of-the-art trains transporting millions of people more quickly around the capital.

'I'm delighted to announce today that the cost of travelling on the Elizabeth Line in Zones 1-6 will be the same price as a similar journey on the tube - fulfilling a key manifesto pledge to deliver truly world-class transport infrastructure which is also accessible and affordable for all Londoners.

'For Londoners going to Heathrow, many of the benefits will be felt in a matter of months, with Oyster, Contactless, and cheaper fares coming in when TfL takes over the service from Heathrow Connect in May.'

Mike Brown MVO, London's Transport Commissioner, said: 'From May customers travelling to Heathrow Airport from Paddington will be able to enjoy the convenience of using Oyster or contactless as they do across the rest of the TfL network, guaranteeing the cheapest fare.

'Customers will also see staff at our stations at all times when trains are running to offer them assistance, and will benefit from our 'turn-up-and-go' service for anyone needing assistance. All travel information will also be fully integrated with our other transport services.

'When Elizabeth line services through central London open in December, they will transform travel across London.

'The railway will provide many new direct journey options between Canary Wharf, central London and Heathrow Airport, and will cut journey times dramatically and ensure London remains a world-leading city.'

Steve Chambers, Public Transport Campaigner, Campaign for Better Transport said: 'This is good news for Londoners, integrating the Elizabeth line with the familiar Oyster card and contactless bank card ticketing system.

'Lower fares, particularly at off-peak times, encourage people to travel where there is capacity and can benefit part time workers.'

Affordable

Jasmine Whitbread, Chief Executive of Business Group, London First, said: 'The brand new Elizabeth Line will dramatically improve journeys across our capital and to London's global hub at Heathrow, and ensuring fares are affordable is great news for Londoners and visitors alike.

'London's businesses have worked hard to support, and help pay for, the Elizabeth line and we're counting the days until it opens its doors.'

Jace Tyrrell, CEO of New West End Company, said 'Integrating the Elizabeth line in to London's existing transport network is crucial to its success and will ensure that benefits from this once-in-a-generation opportunity are properly realised.

'New West End Company welcomes TfL's decision to launch the service with lower fares and a single ticketing system, enabling the West End to remain competitive and attractive with both visitors and employees.'

Kay Buxton, Executive Director of The Paddington Partnership, said: 'Paddington is synonymous with transport innovation and connectivity boasting an illustrious heritage from the origins of Great Western Railway and the home of Heathrow Express to the forthcoming introduction of the Elizabeth line.

'The Mayor of London's decision to extend the TfL fare freeze to the Elizabeth line demonstrates London's position as a global leader in infrastructure and development.

'The Paddington Partnership has and continues to prepare for the influx of visitors, workers and interest to the local area by becoming the capital's fastest growing and most dynamic location.

'In the past 10 years, over 3.3 million sq ft of contemporary and conscientious retail, leisure, office and residential developments have launched or are in the pipeline to support the area's connectivity today and in the future.'

John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow's Chief Executive said: 'The opening of the Elizabeth line will help make travel to the airport more accessible and sustainable for millions of passengers and colleagues.

'This service, along with new rail connections to the south and west and HS2 through Old Oak Common, will put Heathrow at the heart of an integrated transport network, reduce traffic around the airport, and improve local air quality.'

Redefine transport

Opening through central London in December 2018, the Elizabeth line will redefine transport in London with quicker, easier and more accessible journeys.

The new railway, jointly sponsored by the Department for Transport and TfL, will connect stations such as Paddington to Canary Wharf in only 17 minutes, transforming how Londoners and visitors move across the Capital.

From May, TfL Rail services will operate two trains an hour between Paddington and Heathrow using the existing Heathrow Connect trains, an identical frequency to now.

A further two trains an hour will run between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington using the new Elizabeth line trains, replacing part of the Great Western inner suburban route. Testing is underway to allow TfL to introduce the new Elizabeth line trains to the airport.


Title: Re: Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: stuving on March 16, 2018, 06:18:17 pm
There was a lot in the more specialised media this week about a "revised delivery schedule" announced by Crossrail ltd. I think this all just traces back to the Comissioner's report for next week's TfL board meeting (https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/board-20180320-item05-commissioner-report.pdf). Mind you, revising the delivery schedule with your suppliers (assuming that's what he means) sounds to me like what any big prime contractor does every other month. It just doesn't look important until the final year. Anyway, here's the relevant section:
Quote
Construction progress
On 8 March, Crossrail Ltd announced that Chief Executive Andrew Wolstenholme OBE is stepping down after seven years at the helm to take up a new role in the private sector. Programme Director Simon Wright OBE will lead the organisation in a combined role as Chief Executive & Programme Director, as it completes its remaining work.

Over the coming year, the Crossrail team will complete works in the central section of the railway and hand over functions to us, as the new infrastructure owner.

Overall, the project is now more than 90 per cent complete. Crossrail Ltd is continuing to actively manage the increased cost and schedule pressures and has developed a revised delivery schedule that sets out the programme to achieve opening of the Elizabeth line in December 2018 and completion of the full service in December 2019. This prioritises delivery of systems (including communications, ventilation and platform screen doors) that are critical to the operational railway. It also incorporates later than planned dates from Bombardier – which is delivering the project’s rolling stock and depot. Along with Crossrail Ltd, we are actively monitoring and escalating concerns at the highest level with the companies involved in delivering this vital project for London and the wider region.

Crossrail achieved energisation in the eastern part of the tunn