Great Western Coffee Shop

Sorry if this is the wrong board, and this (technically!) isn't First Great Western. But the draft timetable and consultation process for the new CrossCountry franchise, affecting journeys from Penzance, Plymouth, Exeter, Taunton, Bristol, Cardiff, Gloucester, and Cheltenham to the north has been published and if you travel along these routes, it's well worth taking a look. The document is here: http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/ams/routes/timetable2009new_oct07.pdf (http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/ams/routes/timetable2009new_oct07.pdf) and there's an email address at the end for all comments, etc.

It's worth noting that the number of trains to Ashchurch for Tewkesbury and Weston-super-Mare appear to have been cut, but overall I think it looks good.

I notice from the CrossCountry site Arriva will be dropping the Brighton services from December 2008.

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/ams/faqus/#4

In future, all Brighton bound bound traffic will have to change at Reading and use FGW services. Wonderful!

I'm still clueless on how they got the franchise.

in all honesty this is a major cut back compared to what used to happen, so i'd like to know were x amount of new seats are coming from that arriva quote

Extra seating, well that is an interesting story. Initially

- Get 5 extra HST trains, and refit like like HST, but remove the buffet.
- Add extra seats to Voyagers/Super Voyagers by removing buffet

but Virgin have scuppered this plan. Apparently they are transferring some Super Voyagers to the Virgin West Coast Franchise, so Arriva have lost a lot of 5 carriage trains.

So the new Cross Country franchise will have less capacity than present, and no buffet to serve hot refreshments.

I bet the Dft didn't see this one coming!

The DFT engineered the transfer of the Super Voyagers, along with the transfer of the Birmingham - Glasgow services to Virgin West Coast. It was all tied in with the NCC franchise, so will be no surprise to anyone. Much to the dismay of most industry watchers, it has to be said, who wanted through services from Glasgow to places south of Birmingham..     

iirc thay took over 25 super voyagers for north wales route development / other route expansion

In the case of Ashchurch for Tewkesbury (without wishing to detract from the WSM case) this is really not on. See quote below :


I note that I will no longer be able to catch a 1606 train from Ashchurch for Tewkesbury to Newport (or indeed on to Cardiff) if these plans go ahead.

AFT passengers do use this train , and I really think that the DfT and Arriva need to get a grip.

Personally , I think that there is a case for all Nottingham - Cardiff trains calling at Ashchurch for Tewkesbury , but maybe that's just me.

Couldnt agree more.

theres certainly a case for everyone to stop there.

I got that wrong....

turns out Bristol keeps basically exactly the same service as before, tph wise

the new cardiff - manchester train is going to be useless as we already have an hourly cardiff - manchester train via the marches line.  please AXC divert the proposed cardiff - manchester train to NEWCASTLE after birmingham please?!?! 

Have you written to AXC to let them know your thoughts on this?

It does seem a waste of train that could probably come from Exeter or something

Yes timmer!!!! AND they have said there is nothing they can do about it!!  So much for a public consultation!!!

Yeah I agree why bother! I think its all a bit of PR excerise making it look like the public have a say on the railway they would like to see but they and Dft have already made up their minds what we are to get.

it certainly looks that way :(

A similiar reply was received from Arriva in response to the Ashchurch for Tewkesbury service cuts petition. Quote :

"Over the past few weeks we have been consulting with stakeholders and interested parties on our 2009 timetable."

"The number of calls at Ashchurch we're providing delivers the requirements of the Department for Transport specification and any further calls would need to be commercially justified and operationally viable."

Still , over 100 people have now signed it , including residents , passengers , councillors of various political shades and rail campaigners. The petition has received a fair bit of publicity , including radio coverage and press articles. See below.


One can only hope , as in the past with locations in the FGW area , that public pressure makes a difference.

They told me they were going to look into my suggestions (Concerning Ashchurch for Tewkesbury and W-s-M), but I'm unsure these would be brought forward. I'm never so keen when they fall back on the old 'DFT specification' reasoning as I know that a better phrase for that would be the 'bare minimum'.

Anyone wishing to comment to Arriva please do so ASAP. I'm sure with enough pressure to them, the Ashchurch issue will be resolved!

More criticism of the new franchise (link below.)
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=19005085&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

I wonder if they meant only direct service a day to Glasgow as there are a number of direct services to Edinburgh running via the East Coast line.

As bad as the cut backs on the West Coast line are to XC services, there is one plus point in that all the services from the South West that used to operate via the West Coast now run to Manchester providing a direct service every two hours from the South West which will benefit a lot of passengers who won't have to change at either Birmingham or Crewe.

People shouldn't blame Arriva for the loss of XC services via the West Coast line. It was a 100% DaFT decision to hand this part of the network over to Virgin West Coast.

Interesting quotes from the article :


Here is an archive link on the Parkway scheme.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=309.msg855#msg855

Letters from the Gloucestershire Echo (links below.)
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=19025009&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231863&contentPK=19025017&folderPk=108883&pNodeId=231868

As I've said, I strongly oppose the Glos Parkway station as it caters for car users and no-one else. Cheltenham Spa isn't exactly central but it's still a walking distance from the centre, plus there are good bus services.

From Saltash Rail Users Group :

It is very important to get as many individual responses as possible to the timetable consultation ^ your input will count. Letters need to reach Arriva by Fri 23rd Nov

This is the consultation for the 2009 timetable ^ it may seem a long way away but this is our best chance to lobby for stops here before the timetable gets frozen.

E-mail: Info@crosscountrytrains.co.uk
Postal: External Relations, CrossCountry Mobilisation Team
5th Floor, 43 Temple Row, Birmingham, B2 5LS

Also write to our MP Colin Breed MP, House of Commons, Westminster, S1 0AA or 
colinbreed@blueyonder.co.uk or online at www.writetothem.com . Ask him to push for connections from Saltash to Bristol, Birmingham and points North. Other smaller towns (Lostwithiel, Hayle) in Cornwall are favoured with stops in the Arriva timetable.

It would be helpful for reference if you could copy emails to SRUG  info@srug.org.uk

These notes are to help you with ideas of what to write and points to raise, but the most important thing is the impact on YOU ^ what train services do you need, what services would encourage you to use the train more.

Background
Arriva are taking over the Virgin Franchise. Historically we have never had Virgin trains making scheduled stops here, but we believe that there is significant potential demand.

Saltash has a population of over 15,000, with a catchment area for train services extending up to Callington and beyond. For many people in SE Cornwall it would be a lot more convenient to catch a train from Saltash than have to battle with traffic on the Tamar Bridge and in Plymouth. Saltash is the gateway to Cornwall and makes an ideal entrance point for tourism including cycling and walking. There is also significant demand for longer distance outbound trains as shown by the increasing numbers using the direct London services.

Environmental
Congestion on the road bridge. Congestion on A38/A30 in summer. Pollution caused by extra road traffic. Need to reduce carbon emissions. Parking in Plymouth being discouraged.

Social

Current connections through Plymouth to cross country services are poor. As well as potential long distance travel there is also demand for commuting into Plymouth from Saltash and trips down into Cornwall. ^ stress your own particular use (or potential use) of the train. The train service is also a vital part of our connection to the rest of the county.

If we don^t ask for these trains to stop then they certainly will not. If we can get some of them stopping here it will significantly improve our service both locally and long distance.

Arriva trains that are passing through Saltash in the draft timetable:

Penzance 0628 ^ (Saltash c0810)  Plymouth 0822 ^ Edinburgh 1713
Penzance 0830 ^ (Saltash c1005) Plymouth 1018 ^ Aberdeen 2143
Penzance 0948 ^ (Saltash c1135) Plymouth 1148 ^ Manchester 1659
Penzance 2120 ^ (Saltash c 2305) Plymouth  2318
 
Plymouth 0630 (Saltash c0640) ^ Penzance 0822
Aberdeen 0730 - Plymouth 1850 (Saltash c 1900) ^ Penzance 2049
Glasgow 1010 - Plymouth 2000 ^ (Saltash c2010) Penzance 2156
Edinburgh 1205 - Plymouth 2047 (Saltash c2100) ^ Penzance 2241

The petition has closed with 294 signatures. Many thanks to all those who signed (links below.)
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ashchurchtrains/

http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=19037726&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

Last day of the consultation is today (23/11/2007.)

Further Gloucestershire Echo letters on future Cheltenham services to the north can be found in the links below.
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=19050515&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=19050689&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

Questions are now being raised in Parliament about this (see below.)
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231774&contentPK=19050570&folderPk=108867&pNodeId=231888

Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury): To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, what recent discussions she has had with (a) Network Rail and (b) Arriva about the frequency of its direct services between Cheltenham and the North West; and if she will make a statement.

Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury): To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, what recent discussions she has had with (a) Network Rail and (b) train operating companies about the frequency of services to and from Ashchurch; and if she will make a statement.

Cat Hobbs (Campaign for Better Transport) is looking for a "good, quick analysis of the Arriva Cross Country franchise as a whole."

Would anyone like to oblige?

From Arriva :

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

With regards to your enquiry relating to more regular stops at Ashchurch on the CrossCountry Cardiff-Nottingham service, any further calls at stations along this route would have to be commercially justified and there are strong commercial reasons for limiting service calls between Birmingham and South Wales. Additional calls would also severely compromise the aspiration for faster end to end journey times.

Saltash does not currently receive CrossCountry calls and it was not part of the specification for the CrossCountry franchise.  Making calls such as this over and above our franchise commitments would need to be commercially justified.  In the case of Saltash we would need to take into account the impact on end-to-end journey times, the customer perception of slower trains created by additional calls, performance impacts and ensuring that our services are not crowded by passengers making very short trips.  Our view is that local journeys from Saltash to Plymouth are best provided by the service offered by First Great Western. For similar reasons, it is not possible to stop CrossCountry trains at Ivybridge.

As part of the timetable consultation process, we will consider carefully all of the comments received, including the issues that you have raised, as we continue to discuss the introduction of the 2009 timetable with Network Rail, the Department for Transport and other industry partners.  We will keep you updated on progress through our website www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk. Once again, thank you for your comments.

They've seen sense then! journey's through Cornwall are slow enough as it is without pointless stops at shack's! It's all very well saying that more trains should stop at these stations but if noone uses them then whats the point?

Presumably vacman hasn't travelled by train in Cornwall much.
1. Saltash is a town with population over 15,000 (one of the largest towns in the County) and a rail catchment population of well over 50,000.
2. Smaller stops in Cornwall form a vital link for their communities - even Menheniot which is a mile from its village and gets about 3 trains a day in each direction is vital for both commuters and schoolchildren.
3. As everywhere an irregular service and lack of support form a viscous circle - the only way to break it is to provide services and publicise them - the passengers gradually start to come as they learn that the service is frequent, reliable, and cheap. Saltash is proving this works over the last year - passenger numbers well up.
4. The reason trains in Cornwall are relatively slow is to do with track and topography, not stops.

If you buy in to the DfT vision of a railway reduced to an inter-city mainline only service then you need to provide alternative transport options for users of local services on main lines.

The best use of the Cornish mainline would be to terminate all trains in both directions at Plymouth and so you could run a half-hourly clock face shuttle up and down the Cornish spine, linking properly with the branches, and not have our service continually crippled by constraints at Reading or Birmingham or service delays and problems elsewhere on the network.

Give Cornwall back its own railway - we could introduce passport and customs checks at the interchange at Plymouth as well  :)

RogerCO

Welcome to the forum , Roger.

I am reminded of Bob Crow's infamous "'little more than halts" comment (link below.)
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/01/train_safety_at_stations_first.html#more


The reply to both questions from Tom Harris is that no recent discussions have taken place.

For your information I WORK trains in Cornwall, including the ones that stop at Menheniot, St Germans and Saltash, I've never seen more than 3 people get on at Menheniot on the 0604 PNZ-NTA which is the commuter train for Plymouth, I've seen 1 person in 12 months get on the 0643 PNZ-PAD service at Menheniot, I've never seen more than a handfull get on at St Germans and Saltash, Saltash may have a catchment area of 50,000 but only 0.2% of that 50,000 use the station every day! Obviously YOU don't travel by train much in Cornwall if you think noone travels from Cornwall to London and believe that people would be happy to change trains at Plymouth!

Vacman

You are right, not many people ever get on at Menheniot, more at St Germans, a more again at Saltash.

For a long time Saltash in particular has been overlooked with only a local Wessex service, we then got FGW with a very limited timetable and the region wide problems that brought, in addition we had a few HST stopping issues, which I think FGW management brought on themselves by not consulting with people like you. We got a few back in May, but we are still at a lower service level than pre Dec 2006.

It is going to take some time to publicise the service, and for people to regain confidence, especially for Saltash as we were hit so hard and had these extra problems.

I have no doubt that numbers will grow quite quickly over the next few years, and that FGW at least will see the benefit. Last summer when we had good connections, you may remember much larger numbers using Saltash. I have carried out a couple of passenger surveys, and at times have counted 30+ boarding Westbound services.

I am not sure I agree with Rogers idea, I think through trains to the rest of the country are a good thing, which is why we want them, not just for short trips into Plymouth!

I hope that Cross Country will consider a few stops, this will help to better link Cornwall, and clearly give Saltash a few more services. Obviously if people do not use them then they may get cut again, but the potential is definitely there.

Every stop will inevitably have an impact on the timetable, but a stop where the line speed is high costs much more than a stop where the line speed is just 15mph, and certainly for some services Network Rail only add 1 Minute for a Saltash stop.

With a bit of luck they should be starting work on the former station building in the next month or so, and that will help a lot in terms of perception of an open railway station. I will keep you all posted.

Give us a chance, and give us a bit of support. Please.

I do agree the Saltash isn't as much of an issue as the rest due to the low line speed, I was a bit wound up when I posted the last one!

One of the interesting things about Roger's idea is that FGW are contractually committed to developing and promoting an interurban network for Cornwall to be known as "Network Kernow" , which could end up being very similiar (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=235.msg557#msg557

The link also notes that Saltash is set for a housing boom.