Great Western Coffee Shop

Other parts of the country have Open Access Operators that provide additional services due to the poor performance of the principal train operator.

For example

GNER:
Hull Express Train operated by First Group
Grand Central

Virgin West Coast:
Wrexham and Shropshire

Is it possible that another train operator could operate within the GWR area, to provide a better, cheaper service than FGW?

I can't see a company commiting unless it went to London as they need high passenger numbers. Local stuff isn't really profitable as FGW have showed us.

Well. Hull Trains has been a great success for the travelling public (not sure about it's shareholders), although being allowed to run reasonably free of interference by it's parent First Group has definitely helped. Remember the concept and early years of running predated ownership by First when it acquired GB Railways.

Grand Central still isn't up and running, and if it doesn't start soon will start to lose credibility. And it's only 3 trains a day.

Wrexham and Shropshire has only just got approval to run services, so let's wait and see what materialises.

All three operators only gained their access by running to places that were not served by franchise operators (excluding the once a day GNER train to Hull). It's clear that to win the right to run a service a prospective operator has to provide passengers a new service, not a competitor to an existing service (if for no other reaons than it screws the economics of the existing franchisee.) Given that constraint, there are no current proposals to run services on the lines run by FGW, and it's not clear what service might meet these criteria.

So regrettably, I'm afraid we're stuck with First for the forseeable future.      

That's not really a good example, since Hull Trains is owned by First Group... :o

In the GW Area there are 3 I can think of, 4 if you include South Wales.

Arriva Trains Wales
First Great Western
South West Trains
Virgin Cross Country, soon to be Arriva

Plus there is all the freight that runs in the area.

I don't think it would make sense to have another operator.

Your examples are all wrong, Open Access Operators provide a service where none or little service currently exists.

Also there are no spare paths between Reading and London with Reading already at capacity the ORR/DFT probably wouldn't allow an open access operator.

Here are 2 relevant proposals :

Save The Train - Swindon - Westbury (link below.)
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/open.html

Upstart Coop West Country (links below.)
http://www.upstart.coop/Why%20a%20co-op%20OARO.doc

http://www.upstart.coop/Rail%20map.pdf

There is no more room to run anymore Firstgroup services (well HST's) Reading to London is saturated already so having an open access operator is just pie in the sky.
And where would a go it alone outfit if it decided to run a "local" service get it's rolling stock from? If Great Western can't get it then they probally won't.


Still, Dream On!

I agree with your comments about stock and space on the lines / through Reading - indeed there are othe issues too - not only where is the stock obtained from, but where do you get it stabled, serviced, staffed. And what about convincing the powers that be that you have everything in place and are a fit company to run a train service.

And yet ...

Looking that little bit wider. Looking at the proposals that are linked to earlier in this thread. The issues are acknowledged and solutions offered - at least in the "Save the Train" case.

At the Southern end of the TransWilts line is a depot that's already got a load of class 159 diesel units based there, operated by a company which has clearly convinced the powers that be that they can run a train service. Terminating at Salisbury from the South and East you have trains from Southampton and from Waterloo - run them on through as a commercial exercise up to Trowbridge (along a line already served by those trains) then up to Melksham, Chippenham and Swindon.

Extra stock?   You may be able to juggle it cleverly - in the interim before the newly autorised Axminster loop is installed, there may be a little slack in the stock of 159 units, and there's a unit not on lease at Doncaster too.  I understand it might not be in running order - but it's just an option.  It's what is run our from Salisbury, so woul dbe natural for them to use - but the St Phiips Marsh team wouldn't want one oddball, would they?

Track capacity?   I have correspondence from Network Rail assuring me that there isn't a track capacity issue in getting an extra passenger service along the TransWilts above the current pathetic two per day.   And onwards from Salisbury to London or Southampton - NOT an issue; the train runs already!

Extra traffic offered by the service?  Well - the figures for the TransWilts are around and I can dig 'em out again.   They look excellent for a corridor that's got six SSTCs on it for now and for the future.  Add to that (if we take the London case) direct trains from Melksham, Trowbridge and Warminster to London where there is no or linited thhrough service at the moment. Major additional London service from Swidnon, Chippenham and Westbury.   Yes, it woul dbe slower but in would also be lower cost, give extra capacity against overcrowded routes that look set to get even busier, and for anyone travelling to the South of the river in London would give a fare better London arrival point.

But, yes, I probably am dreaming ... there's a difference between coul dbe done and will be done.  And a feeling that all the TOCs are so busy coping with expansion and traffic and issues on existng routes that they may not feel able to expand into other routes.

I don^t see why FGW gets the monopoly on trains running out of Paddington. Why can^t we have another company offering services out of Paddington on an open access system? I think a bit of competition would be good for keeping FGW in check.

I agree that it would be a challenge due to the capacity issues at Reading, however I though Network rail has plans to improve capacity at Reading.

We have seen a gradual deterioration of the services on the GWML, especially after the issuing of the Greater western, franchise.

The DafT specifies that it basically wants one TOC per London terminal.

Which London station do Hull and Grand Central( does it run yet?) use?

Hull Trains currently run to Kings Cross and when Grand Central start up they too will run to Kings Cross.

I can think of a route that an Open Access operator could do, avoiding London and Reading, starting a through route that was discontinued long ago.

Bristol to Oxford.

It could call at:

Oxford, Didcot, Swindon, B Parkway and Temple Meads, or;
Oxford, Didcot, Swindon, Chippingham, Bath, Temple Meads.

There could be extensions to Cardiff or Taunton here.

It could also serve a few new local stations on the GWML if they were opened.

What do others think? Would it work?

A similiar service is included in Gateway To The Future (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=357.msg1034#msg1034

Whilst the DfT like one Main operator at London Stations the WHOLE PRIVATISATION of BR was about bringing competition on to the Railway.

Claims were made that the East Coast line from Doncaster to London KX was full with no spare train paths, yet paths WERE found for Extra services from Leeds to KX and also Grand Central's Sunderland KX services.

What is needed in the FGW area is an Open Access operator to Run from Newquay Cornwall to London.
If Newquay warrents a Airport it sure as Hell deserves daily though Trains to London.
Whilst Reading to Paddington is fairly full, 4 lines bring about massive increases in Paths than standard twin lines. Ever notice how trains between Reading and London, especially Limited Stop Turbo Services, switch from Fast Lines to Slow lines and back again, Can't overtake when there's only 1 up and 1 down line.

The Biggest area of concern for Train paths between Newquay and London is between Exeter St David's and Newton Abbot, this line is full at some times during the day.
More reason to rebuild the Tavistock line and press on back to Okehampton. OH BLISS

And if Paddington is Full, there are different routes, How about Newquay-Exeter St D-Westbury (Reverse)-Salisbury-London Waterloo, Victoria or even Kensington Olympia.

There's plenty of MK III coaches, Driving Van Trailers (So no need to run engine round) off hire.

Of course FGW WOULD THROW THERE TOY'S OUT THE PRAM ON THIS ONE

BUT WE NEED SOMEONE TO SHOW FGW HOW TO RUN TRAINS

And competition would bring some Reasonable fares.

Smokey

I'm not sure that an Open Access Operator would be able to run trains into Paddington via the GWML. This would probably be a step too far for the DfT and FGW.

Possible routes could be

Cardiff to Brighton via BPW, Swindon and Reading
Bristol to Oxford via Bath, Chippenham and Swindon
Cornwall to London, via Newuay/Truro to London Waterloo
Gloucester to Southampton/Portsmouth

Any potential Open Operator would have to demonstrate neglect by the current arrangements, and demand for a change. This is how Wrexham, Hull and Sunderland have been able to get Open Operators. Also, Open Operators must be self funding, and have strong local support (MP's and Councils)

Not really, theres something like well over 10 flights a day to london, which take the passengers off the trains as its a lot cheaper, and quicker to fly than get a train.

Heavy investment in the newquay branch to bring it up to "standard" (ie a complete track relay) would go a long way to making it a viable alternative

I'm not sure many people actually want to come all the way from London to Newquay in the middle of winter?

FGWs summer service is excellent and is often full and standing from Reading.

I don't think that it would be quicker to fly. How slow is the Newquay branch. Are there plenty of loops?

I think Reading sta, and the Padd to Read line are full!

Cardiff/Bristiol to Oxford would be good, esp with an extra platform at Oxford.

I think that going via Parkway would be better (more cusotomers- people like P&R stas).

Flight:
^56
Takes 3 hour 10 (if you include an hour each end for checkin, and an hour the other to get to work)

Train:
^73
Takes over 5 hours (there is no direct london to newquay service) An hour of this is just traversing the 20 miles of the newquay branch

Flying is the only real way to commute to london apart from driving for the people of newquay. Hence why the number of services out of newquay airport have grown dramatically since they were re-started a few years ago

Well, the way forward should be to cut the journey on the branch!

it still wouldnt be a viable alternative then either...

Don't forget many people hate flying. Including me ;)

As for the open access operator, small branch lines certainly may be an option  (Like for example, using a PPM service on the Newquay route) and the Bristol (or Cardiff) to Oxford route may certainly be a good idea.

I don't know which thread it was on, but there are "issues" with having PPM's on track at the same time as regular trains, plus i'd think a ppm would be worse than a 142 when its busy, as the majority of "seating" is standing!

Newquay gets absoultly wedged in summer, so i'd hate to see a PPM!!!!

I don't really think any OA Tocs are going to run services on a *loss* making branch line?!

No, but there are possibilities if they are funded by some means other than a franchise arangement; as I understand it, the folks planning the service from Wrexham to London are open access, but receiving financial assistance from various non-DfT places.  Another thing about an OA operator is that they can cherry pick rather than have to run specified services under a franchise, and they have no franchise payments to make on profit. And they may be able to run services over a section that is not especially profitable if it feeds them other profitable business to adjoining services.

"It probably won't happen", but let's say that Stagecoach ran a single unit based at their Salisbury depot, via an Open Access arrangement, to Chippenham and Swindon and back every 3 hours.  Probably not worth the hassle, short term, it it was limited to that.  Now - let's say that instead of an isolated unit, they extend their Waterloo - Salisbury stopper up to Swindon and offer an excellent fare than undercuts First to a London destination which is a long way across from Paddington and is going to save many people who want to go to the Charing Cross / South Bank / City a lot of time.

Oh - and they'll also pick up a lot more Trwobridge and Warminster to London passengers with their greatly enhanced services from there - up from 3 through services a day to 7 or 8.

You can't really compare Newquay to London air vs train, you'll find that people who fly from Newquay travel from all around Cornwall as Newquay is the "hub" for air travel, you should compare it as Cornwall to London and no matter how many flights run from Newquay it isn't a drop in the ocean compared to how many people catch the train from Cornwall to London, bear in mind most Penzance-Paddington services call at 11 stations before Plymouth, where as there is only one air port! Also, it is generally cheaper to catch the train if you get a leisure advance and despite all the press reports that people can never get these tickets they ARE there, I see plenty of leisure tickets on the trains that I work! Fair enough it is quicker to fly from Newquay to London BUT If you are going from say Truro to London then firstly you have to get to Newquay airport which is in the middle of nowhere, then you have to arrive early, check in, and look what happens when the weather turns, Ryanair simply say "it's not our fault, make your own way home"! At least if a train fails then FGW will get you there in the end at their expense!

I remember working the sleeper up one night, we get to Bodmin Parkway and quite a few people got on, went through the train and sold quite a few tickets to Stanstead Airport to lots of pi**ed of looking people, got chatting to one of them in the end and they had all been booked on a flight from Newquay with Ryanair, as it was foggy the flight was cancelled and there were no more flights, they were told that it wasn't the airlines fault and they had to get their own way back! Ryanair wouldn't even give the passengers a taxi to the nearest train station!

Why Can't a Open Operator run into Paddington, it wasn't a Step to Far for the DfT for Hull Trains and Grand Central to Start (OK GC is only just about to come on Line)
GNER throw their TOYS out the Pram but were OVER RULED in the courts.
A Newquay-Par-Bodmin Parkway-Liskeard-Plymouth and NON STOP to Paddington Service would Pay Off.
Most People who fly would take the train when Possible, they do have Concerns about the Enviroment, and whilst there are Cheap Air Fares, there are Cheap Rail Fares, and Full Price Air Fares aren't cheap.
I've been on the UP Sleeper and the Train was Swamped at Bodmin Parkway because Ryan Air had Cancelled a Flight.

Why when the Train Company's Cancel a Train do they HAVE to lay on Buses And TAXIS if no other service is available, it Cost BIG BUCKS, ok it's safeguarded into the price of tickets.
But When an Airline Cancel a Flight it's a case of Tough luck, here's your Money back, Now **** OFF
How much would Air Fares Rise if it was a Level Playing Field?
Oh the Air Lines would squeal like pigs if it was even suggested!

This is going to happen once the 2nd platform opens at newquay anyway, so its pointless in an open access for newquay

Airlines have to get you to your destination no matter what. If you make your own travel arrangements as a result of there mess up, they will (and have to) refund you.

A flight from my place in spain to cardiff a few years ago got canceled, so i got another flight back via a different airline. As waiting an extra day would have badly messed up my other plans. Sure there customer service was crap and i had to pay ^30 for a small claims court to get my money, but i got a full refund for the extra flight, the canceled flight, and relevant compensation.

This proposal is listed under "Route enhancement aspirations" in the Network Rail Business Plan 2007, which means that it hasnt been approved yet.

Whats going to Happen once the 2nd platform opens at Newquay? A thourgh service to London NON STOP from Plymouth, at least with 2 platforms at Newquay there's more train paths for a Open access operator! Bring it on!

No there isn't

iirc there are no loops on the newquay branch. Hence the dire service.

Newquay > london woulnd't be financially viable for an open access anyway, especially when there are fast and cheaper alternatives, and FGW going to be operating a service anyway. And the fact that plymouth has an ample service to london. There really is no need.

The line at Newquay has two passing places; Goonbarrow and St Blazey (just round the corner from Par) hence how the summer TT manages to cope.

Technicly speaking it's actually double track from Par-St Blazey as there's a box at each end of the "loop" and no Token, They could do with the loop put back at St Dennis Junction really, then an hourly service can run, as it is now then it's not quite possible to run hourly as it takes about 30 mins from Goonbarrow to Newquay, however, two platforms at Newquay would solve this! The problem with the current Newquay service is that the four trains they do have are timed quite badly, first train from Newquay is at 1018, OK that train does connect with the up "riviera" at Par but thats the only London connection without changing again at Plymouth, also, there is the stupid gap in the afternoon between 1452 and 2023 whilst the unit is nicked to work the peak Gunnislake service. In terms of local traffic Newquay is the opposite way around to all of the other branches as Newquay is catually the place where the local traffic flows go to, on all the other lines i.e. Falmouth then most people are going AWAY from the branch and going into Truro etc, also remember Newquay is the second largest town in Cornwall, it's got a higher population than Truro!

Agree with Vacman, the service to Newquay is worse than useless, however it was an EYE OPENNER for FGW at just how busy the Summertime Daily HST to/from Newquay was. Don't tell me there's no demand for Trains to from Newquay.

That's why I think it's perfect for open access operator.

You don't get a demand for Trains if you don't provide the Sevice!

It was an eye opener, this year the direct weekday service to Newquay is running for an extra week at the end of the summer! The 6 hour gap in the afternoon is set to dissapear this summer aswell, all we need now is an early morning service for people to go into Newquay for work/school. when Wessex ran 8 trains per day in the summer of 2005 they ran an early morning service from May-October and school children started using it! so there is a demand there!

Get rid of First Class on the Newquay service, it was empty whilst standard was heaving!

Interesting thought have an HST that's all  Standard Class, expect the First Class Passengers from all places west of Paddington would be jumping.

Now if you read what i'm saying again, you'll see that i'm saying that it's not FINANCIALLY VIABLE not the demand isnt there.

Firstly, there is little to no rolling stock "spare" in the UK. So for a london bound service they would have to invest in at least 5 new trains (to give a rough every 3 hourly service)
Secondly, the line through reading is almost at it's peak capacity, if not at it already. So they'd quite probably have to use a different london station.
Thirdly, i'm not sure what "protection" there is on firsts service, however most new franchises have this. Which means it's about 5 years into the franchise before this could actually happen (if fgw have protection)
And finally, FGW and already established and highly profitable business is incredibly likely going to be running them if/when platform 2 opens anyway. An open access operator won't be able to compete on prices on the short term, and could be priced out of the market.

Sure, the demand is there. But it's not worth someone investing MILLIONS of pounds, for something that might never make a profit.

If platform 2 opens. See earlier quote :

see my edit :P

Seen and noted  :)

What about Mk2 carriages with a DVT and a Loco?

To avoid London, why not go to Oxford (connexion to Read. and London at Didcot)?

Or perhaps to the West/East Midlands?

Yes those are an option, but they'd need a severe refit.

So eventually some new rolling stock would need to be found.

Or to actually increase local use of the Newquay line DRAMATICALLY close the St.Dennis Jn to St.Blazey section and route the line back through St.Dennis and Burngullow to St.Austell thus turning a fairly pointless local railway into something on par with the Falmuff branch. Luxulyan/Bugle/Roche would have to go but ho hum (thats upset 2 people), new stations at St.Dennis/Foxhole would generate far more... This should of been done at the time of the A30 Goss Moor dualing, but again, we wouldnt want to see the DfT actually spending on something that wasnt made of tarmac would we.... But am off topic, whoops!

The only time I've travelled on the Newquay  the 153 was full of people who got off at Roche. The 153 was overflowing as there was a WHOLE PRE-SCHOOL including buggys Mum and about two children each, about ten families. Add that to the holiday makers changing for the London service to go home and the day trippers and you get one dangerous 153. It took the so long to get off the train, it missed the London connection.

But that would have been a one off booking, by going through Foxhole and St Dennis (much, much larger villiages and only about 1 mile of track missing between Parkandillick clay works and St Dennis!!) you would generate local school traffic and benefit more people!

Quite happy to back reopening through St Dennis as long as the existing line and stations remain open as well.

A triangular junction at Burngullow would enable the establishment of a Newquay-St. Dennis-Truro-Penryn (for the University)-Falmouth (for Maritime Museum), cross county service.

Upon travelling on the Newquay branch, on a unit, everybody got on off the train from Bristol, and everybody got off at Newquay. There were no request stops called.

Liam, I dont doubt that the request stops are relatively lightly-used. However, as a co-organiser of a campaign that opposes the closure of such stations on principle, I cant support any proposal that would see them jeopardised.

I refer you again to the quote below.

I normally wouldn't condone the closure of any such stations, however, if it were a straight choice between the two I would back the St Dennis reopening, Roche station is over a mile from the villiage of the same name, Bugle is slightly larger but it has a regular bus service to St Austell which is only 10 mins by bus but about 30 by train, with a change at Par, Luxulyan is the only loser as it doesn't have any bus service at all I think? most of the origional route would be retained anyway because china clay still goes to Goonbarrow so maybe a "parliamentary train" could run on the old route to protect the stations for future use?

Personally, I dont see that it should be a straight choice between the two, and it would be perfectly possible to have both. Obviously, you would need to work out what an appropriate level of service would be on both routes, but I would want to see a higher level than "parliamentary."

To me, its about making the most of what traffic you've got (even if its not an awful lot) and taking steps to increase it. That doesnt mean that a service from St Austell-Newquay cant be introduced alongside that.

I agree, the worst thing about this is that the section between St Dennis Junction and Parkandillick is only about 2 miles, and the section from Parkandillick to Burngullow (on the mainline, near St Austell) is probably going to be mothballed soon when the clay works close! it was mostly relaid a couple of years ago! Mind you, if they did open stations at St Dennis and Foxhole then the local bus company Western Greyhound wouldn't be happy! thats their territory!

Biggest problem with Newquay Branch is the awful service, there is no local traffic as there are no trains at Peak hours, a 2nd platform at Newquay is a waste untill somebody provides a half decent service, I still go with an open access operator, I agree that Newquay-Par would't make a profit, but the Plymouth-London section would make big bucks.
If FGW cut the HST services back to the Profit making areas, NO HST would run into Cornwall, but due to the fall off in Cornish Passengers numbers, Plymouth eastwards would then become a loss maker, cutting back to Exeter and HSTs might just be profitable. That was Dr Beechings biggest blunder, it was taken that cutting branch lines and people would travel to main Rail Heads and then use the Train.
NOPE: Beeching forced hundreds of thousands to buy Cars. And by Car everybody went.

I really don't undertand people that say west of exeter is not profitable.  ???

They obviously never travel round here. Newton Abbot has good passenger numbers, trains are often FULL leaving Plymouth, local services are always well used.

I don't understand  :-[

Always take smokey with a pinch of salt, anyone who knows him will say that!! ;)

Ay Ay.....

Though he has got a point, just think about how much the network costs to maintain and how much it costs to run the trains, it is NOT profitable overall west of Exeter....

FGW must spend most their farebox from Cornwall on buses/taxis for passengers/staff...  ;D

Oh I agree, just thought i'd point that out about smokey anyway, you know what i'm talkin about oooooo, ;)

Trains in between Exeter and Newton Abbot may be fairly full but if the Railway finished at Plymouth about 40% of passengers between Exeter and Newton Abbot would Disappear.

Best example travel on HST starting at Plymouth going East loads about 15%.

Travel on HST from Plymouth going East that started in Penzance loads about 85% from Plymouth.

CUT the BRANCHES and the TREE WILL DIE.

It's one thing to argue that closing that bit of line costs too much money, or causes serious hardship, or affects significant numbers of people. But to object to it purely on the principle of opposing all closures with no regard to anything else is just plain silly.

I agree, those stations are EXTREMEMLY lightly used, whenever i've been on the Newquay branch i've never picked anyone up at Luxulyan and very few at Roche, most trains do get stopped at Bugle in the summer months for people going out to Newquay.

If a proposal were put forward that resulted in rerouting of the line to St Austell, with a much more frequent and fast service (say hourly), but the sacrifice was the existing line into Par be closed then I would support it as a sensible and pragmatic proposal. I know Lee is passionate about his view that no stations should be closed, but life is all about compromises.

Only problem i can see arrising from sending it to St Austell is that perhaps services from London may take longer? My geogrpahy of the area isn't brilliant getting to Newquay all i know is that the main road is awfully signposted getting there. The road on the otherhand is excellent.

The mileages from Par on the current route and the proposed route are very similar (around 21 miles). The advantage is that you'd stay on the main line for 7 of those miles, which would help reduce the journey time for through trains as it would presumably be faster. And St Austell is a much larger (and hence more useful) centre of population for the branch line services to run to. The branch would also be reduced from 21 miles to around 14 miles, so one unit and crew could cover more services, particularly if a bit of investment was put in to improve the track and thus reduce journey times further.

All in all it's a no-brainer, which is probably why it hasn't happened. 

There was a plan to re route the Newquay branch from the erstwhile St. Dennis junction to St. Austell via the existing china clay line to Burngullow. This would only have required a small length of track to be relaid but a lot of money spent on the china clay line to upgrade it for passenger use. This could have come about as the Goss moor dualling of the A30 would have taken over the existing line from St. Dennis junction to Roche. Therefore a lot of the required money would have been paid for by the new road.
In the end the planners decided to build a completely new alignment for the road which took it north of the moor and the existing A30 closed. This has now happened and the opportunity has been lost.
The Newquay branch only survives because of the summer traffic. It is not much use for local traffic as it only goes to Par or occasionally Plymouth and the service is too sparse and too slow. On summer Saturdays there are no stops at any of the intermediate stations. Unless there is major developement in the area to provide more traffic I sadly cannot see the branch having a long term future. The ratio of maintenance costs to passenger numbers must be horrendous. A park and ride for Newquay like St.Ives  might help but I have never seen anyone show any interest in the idea,

The Newquay branch would be far busier if more trains ran, quite often when I work the mainline people will ask for a day return to Newquay and when you tell them the one return train in the afternoon, which is to early for daytrippers, they then decide to go to St Austell and catch one of the half hourly busses! Like I posted before, Wessex ran eight trains per day in the summer and every train was busy from day one of the new timetable, with plenty of people travelling from Newquay for shopping trips etc, something that was unheard of previously! then the DFT issued their proposed timetable for the new franchise which at first consisted of just TWO trains per day all year round! However, some common sense prevailed and Newquay was left with the old 4 trains per day but all year round. It didn't even take time for people to get familliar with the 8 trains when Wessex ran it, they were busy from day one!

Right lets CLOSE TOTNES Station, it only serves a Population of 7,500, The Whitby Branch in North Yorkshire should also go Pop of 15,200 yet Whitby gets a Half decent service.
Falmouth has a fine Train Service Pop 18,000,  Penzance has 19,000 and has though trains to Scotland!
Newquay has a Population of 14,000 yet in Peak Summer Months this is incresed to around 100,000.

Nobody uses the Newquay branch as it has a Poor Service!
The First Train out is at 10.18 then 12.42, 14.52 and then just a short wait till 20.23.

But what if the Service was Diverted to St Austell, you could keep the Bugle route open with a First Train from Plymouth (about 05.45) calling stations to Par and then via Bugle all stations to Newquay (07.30)
Then Services frequently Newquay to St Austell, then a Mid day run Newquay to Par via Bugle, pick up Passengers from London and all places East, back to Newquay and then work the St Austell shuttle, with a Evening Run to And from Plymouth via Bugle.
Of course the route via Bugle would also be a BACK up when engineers work on the St Austell section.

No one uses the newquay branch because it takes an hour to cover 20 miles, thus making any local journey a LOT quicker by car.

The time issue isn't really to bad, to drive from Newquay to Plymouth is quite an experience as Newquay is out on a limb by both road and rail, Newquay is busy all year round on friday evenings going in and Saturday afternoon/Monday morning coming back as  you get a lot of stag/hen parties from places as far afield as Manchester, the problem is the local traffic! it takes 45 minutes from Par to Newquay on a unit, ans 1hr on an HST due to HST's being restricted to 25mph on the branch.

The branch would need a fairly large relay to make it worth someones while for an open access then?

or are hst's restricted for other reasons?

Time for some INVESTMENT in Newquay Branch then, Journey time down to 40 minutes to Par, better still 30 minutes to St Austell

Oh Sorry FORGOT! Department for Tarmac invest in Roads,
Railway only gets Subsidy.

Don't think it's condition of track as a lot of the branch is CWR, it's the embankments and light bridges etc I think, not to mention the ungated crossings, if most of the crossings were done away with on the branch then the journey would be far quicker, most of the crossings have alternative routes for the roads so are pretty pointless!

Quote from Mike Sperring:
"to keep it simple house building is sky high ,population is sky high,motorway capacity is sky high,polution is sky high,a railway line already exists,the demand already exists,the solution = replace 4 miles of track and build station,simple everyone can then commute and be happy.this wouldn`t even hardly cost anything. please look into this as it`s long awaited and as by the end of the year this town wont cope it`s too small thanx m.sperring"
End of quote.

What about applying this logic to the Newquay Branch?

This is what I would do:

*Build a park and ride station on the A38 with 2 HST length platforms and a large Car Park.
*Modernise and add another HST length platform to Newquay.
*Axe all, yes all, the other stations on the line and give them a bus (quicker, more convienent for the person/people and cheaper)
*Use the money saved to rebuild the track, including plenty of loops.
*Run an hourly service from Newquay to at least Par/St Austell in the summer calling a Parkway only (with plenty of trains running on to London and the Midlands.)
*Run a few trains in the Winter which most terminate at Par/St Austell, with some going to Plymouth.
Result: FGW save cash which is used to improve service. HST goes from Cornish mainline to Newquat in 1/2 hour after picking up loads of people at Parkway.
The local residents get a quicker, cheaper and more convenient bus service.

MAIN RESULT: HSTs are full all day in winter, and then as Mike hopes:
motorway capacity will no longer be sky high !!!!!!!!

Ok, I am sure the locals won't like it, but the line is not viable, unlike the TransWilts

I think the ungated crossings at Mollinnins, Tregoss, Haloon, Coswarth could all be removed as suitable easy road alternatives are available hence increasing line speed.

When do we get to see 2007 passenger figures?? Quintrel Downs must of plumeted (Sunnyside Campsite closed) cant remember last time picked up/ set down there. The only one I can see having gone up is Bugle as the village has expanded alot over the last couple years. I therefore strongly think FGW should provide a summer Saturday service from Bugle to/from NQY otherwise these stations never stand a chance having no service on the most likely days for people to use it.

The first FGW HST out the branch only starts Plymouth so isnt busy arrives NQY apx 10:30. Then the last FGW service ex NQY 16:10ish should stop Bugle. Therefore summer Saturday daytrips would be available... Although passenger fiigures wouldnt go up as HST guards dont do tickets  ;D

To be honest, the best and most profitable route to Newquay would have been the line from Chacewater via St Agnes and Perranporth which was closed in 1963.  Had it survived another til around August 1968, it most probably would still be open today and it would have been known as the Truro to Newquay line.  It would have served more tourist destinations (Perranporth even boasted two stations!) than the just about open Par to Newquay line and I reckon would still be making a profit.  The reason?  You would still have your school trains, one or two each way in the morning, there would be trains for shoppers and because it would have served tourist destinations, the trains would most probably have been full in the summer but thanks to Dr Beeching and chums, none of that will ever happen.  I think its time for the government to make it compulsory for all supposedly 'through' trains to run to Penzance thus increasing the traffic in Cornwall (I read a timetable last year and there were 11 trains between Penzance and Plymouth and 30 from Plymouth upwards.  How crazy is that?).  Its also time to put a lot of the freight back on the railways.  When they were going to re-open the old clay line to Wenfordbridge, it was reckoned that one train would remove 150 lorries from the road!  We need to make the most of the railways we have down here and utilise all of them more fully.  Stop building houses and roads Mr Brown and invest in the best solution to all your traffic problems, RAILWAYS.  PS Cut the fare prices while yer at it please!

Correct. But there was no chance of it surviving. Look at the Minehead branch! That was axed late (although soon preserved).

PS Welcome to the forum.

That will no longer happen after recent cut back by clay company IMERYS (Misery) and the closure of the pit totally so the 150 lorries have gone from the road  ;D However strongly agree with your freight point, what else goes by rail in Cornwall?? Train fuel to Penzance, a few wagons of scrap metal a week ex St.Blazey, and two trains of cement a week into Moorswater, wow!! This freight terminal mentioned elsewhere on here for Exeter is great news but why stop there? There was talk of one at Victoria (Roche), but am sure theres other suitable locations, Truro? Ponsandane? Government should pay companies HUGE subsidy to use rail NOT road....

I could, perhaps, have put that a little better.

One of CANBER's core principles is to oppose closures, but (and I think that my previous posts on both the Save The Train Forum and this one bear this out) we always put forward proper arguments as to why such lines/stations should stay open. Also, we do so in the context that their future role should be developed in an appropriate manner.

There ARE limited circumstances in which we would not oppose a closure. See our Statement Of Shared Aims (link below.)
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2700.msg5882#msg5882

Wasn't the one at Victoria/Roche linked to a project to build a waste incinerator plant?
 

I believe that the waste incinerator will be built near Parkandillick on the end of the freight only branch.

I suppose that's good news in that it could safeguard the branch for the time being irrespective of what happens to the China Clay traffic.

If the Waste station goes ahead at Parkanddillack, frequent freight trains would mean up grading the track, makes sense to go on to St Dennis Junction and introduce Passenger trains Newquay to St Austell.

Won't happy! Does anything Sensible Rail wise come out of DfT.

Wasn't the existing track upgraded not hat long ago to handle the modern locos? You're right about the sensible option. Anyone have any idea about what the journey time would be for Newquay-St Austell via St Dennis?

Probably take about 35 mins via St Dennis.

What would happen to Par? Would it be axed/made a "local stop?"

Although there is not much difference between local and express in Cornwall now!


Not good Smokey! If anything should be axed, it should be Looe!

Absoulte RUBBISH!

I know for a fact that many people from the Dartmouth/Torbay/Kingsbridge/South Dartmoor area ALSO use Totnes. Incase you havn't realised, Totnes is about 15 minutes away from Paignton, my house in fact, far closer and easier than using the quite frankly awful Newton Road and if I was to drive to a station would probably drive to Totnes, much like a lot of Paignton would...

I agree (with Devon Metro). Totnes is a railhead for lot of South Devon!

Whitby services should be developed for tourists- there is potential there.

Let's make this clear I DON'T WANT TO SEE ANY RAIL CLOSURE, but that quote about closing TOTNES was a statement that Totnes has a population of 7500, Newquay has a Population about double but the Newquay branch is always being cited for closure.

On the subject of Whitby, it may only have 4 trains per day BUT they are timed to suit the school kids and workers going INTO and OUT OF Whitby and i'm led to believe that the peak trains on that branch are relatively busy?

Whitby trains are well used but unlike Newquay there are run at the times when most people will use then. Many local station ares on Whitby branch have NO bus service, NOT in the Winter anyway.

PS, Vacman it's a very scenic branch.

Only been on part of that line once, about midday in May a couple of years ago and the train was wedged, it was a 2 car 156 out of interest. I think one point that we're missing is that despite a dire service the Newquay branch is stil VERY busy from Easter to October, and quite often the first one out from par (starts from Plymouth) and the only afternoon train back (which goes to Plymouth) are usually quite well loaded all year round, OK, it aint packed on winter, far from, but i've never seen them empty! UNLIKE the Looe branch!

If it happens, with a 35 min journey time to St Austell, ( making it 40 mins to Par on the main line, as opposed to 50 via Bugle?),  I can see the headlines in the Western Morning News "Cornwall's High Speed 1 brings London 15 minutes closer to Newquay"!!

When these plans were mooted, what were the proposals for accommodating the branch trains at St Austell station. Also, does anything of St Dennis station (one did exist way back when, didn't it?) remain? I've never seen any photos of the site.

The line up from Burngullow Junction (on the Cornish mainline) to St.Dennis Jn (on the Newquay branch) has NEVER had a passenger service, there has never been a station at St.Dennis. St.Dennis Jn which is actually a good mile from St.Dennis had signalbox/passing loop etc but no station.

The proposals for the St.Austell route were trains to still run to/from Par in order to change lines/reverse therefore no work needed at St.Austell. It was also intended to cut several mainline stops at Par out as passengers for Newquay would just change at St.Austell.

Thanks for this clarification. I knew that the St. Dennis line didn't have a passenger service in GWR days but having found an entry on wikipedia (disputed) which stated that it existed, I wondered whether there may have been one back in the mists of time.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:St_Dennis_railway_station

Thanks also for the info re the plans to run to Par to reverse, which make a lot of sense

I think there is potential to do more to boost passenger numbers on the Looe line. The proposed Park & Ride scheme is one example, if set up in an appropriate manner (yes I have read the reservations of forum members.)


It should also be noted that the Looe line is well used in the summer months.

The Looe line is busier in summer but is still nowhere near as busy as Newquay and St Ives in summer, the Looe branch in summer is usually manageable with a single 153, even in July and August.

It would be interesting to hear Richard B's view on that, as he had a row with Alistair Darling which resulted in the claim (by Richard B) that the guard couldnt get down the Looe train to sell tickets because it was so packed in summer.

That probably was the case, what i'm saying is that even with a 153 you'll never get to the point of leaving passengers behind on the Looe line, where as I remember one bank holiday when Wessex sent a single 153 out to Newquay, when they arrived there were over 300 passengers waiting on the platform, the guard rang control and they said they'd send a bus, trying to fob the 200 passengers off that couldnt fit on, the guard then refused to move the train until the busses arrived! couldn't imagine the same situation at Looe!

View noted.

I have now had time to seek out the RichardB/Alistair Darling disagreement. Quotes from a Times article (17/03/2006, link below) :
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2090057,00.html


Interestingly, RichardB seems to have partly won the argument. Quote from the DfT Review of Community Rail Development Strategy (link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/strategyfinance/strategy/community/revcomrail?page=3#a1007

It's the same story on a lot of summer services with reagards to revenue collection, the hourly service on the Looe branch didn't really work because it was clock face and was timetabled so that it missed some mainline connections by about 2 minutes sometimes! I certainly don't agree with the earlier post by someone saying that Looe should be shut! It may not be the busiest branch but it is still used and there is usually a handfull of people on each daytime service. As for Alastair Darling, well, I couldn't possibly say what I think of him here because it would be a personal attack!  ;)

Why can't the government pick someone who actually knows something about what he or she is meant to be in charge of?  Alistair Darling knows as much about railways as I do about cosmetic surgery which isn't a lot!  Each successive government for the last 50 years has been trying to cut Cornwall off the rail network altogether by either scaling down services or threatening to close lines.  Fortunately, they haven't succeeded, so far.  I travelled on the St Ives branch just before Christmas and it was surprising the number of passengers that used the line even at that time of year.  The train even had two carriages!  The Newquay line whilst it is a beautiful and very scenic line, only has 3 or 4 trains a day between Monday and Saturday in the winter and none on a Sunday and hardly a single passenger uses these trains.  How do you market a line like Newquay to Par when hardly anyone uses it or likely to use it because they prefer the comforts of their cars?

Thankfully, he is not Transport Secretary anymore, although he is now Chancellor..... 


There have actually been modest increases in the number of passengers recorded at the Par-Newquay halts, albeit from a low base :


Unfortunately, this has been accompanied by a drop in passengers at Newquay itself :


Mind you, it is always dangerous to base assumptions on official figures, as Darling well knows....

And that is critical where the service is sparse.    Example:

Let me see ... I'm thinking of an intermediate station which currently has not four but two trains each day in each direction. Northbound at 07:17 and 19:50, Southbound at 06:43 and 19:11.  Journeys, to and through, I'm guessing, around 6,000 per annum (that's from our own counts).

Looking back to 2006 there were just over four (i.e. five trains in each direction each day. Northbound at 05:52, 07:45, 13:35, 17:02 and 21:33, and Southboound at 06:56, 09:12, 14:49, 18:09 and 22:37.  Much more suitable service .... journeys (according to FGW) were over 100,000 for that year.

Newquay is not somewhere I know well - but I sould sure as heck welcome an operator (Open access or otherwise) on our line - TransWilts - who would take this traffic which is now latent, and would grow dramatically from the 2006 figures [hypothysis based on historic and flow analysis]

The figures you quote are from 2005/2006 when there were 8 trains per day in the summer, i'd like to see 2007 figures!

Please let me clarify:

I do not want Looe to be shut!!!!!!!!

I was mearly saying that if Totnes and Whitby should be shut, then Looe should be anyway.

I hope it does not happen!

Sorry for misunderstandings!

So would I, but they are not "officially" out yet. Perhaps RichardB can help out on this?

The ORR Station Usage link can be found below.
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1529

The 2007 figures surely will show as drop. Several reasons 1) The first service from Newquay runs fast Quintrel Downs to Par, thus not allowing day trips from SCR, ROC, BGL, LUX to anywhere on the mainline. 2) The peak months saw the late afternoon return from NQY run by a HST not calling at the shacks. 3) The shacks never have a summer Saturday service.

And you wonder why the numbers are so low!!

I am glad somebody else has noticed this, because what Jacobs recommended in their "final" franchise report for the SRA was the closure of all the halts except Quintrel Downs.

The service in question called at all stations in the December 2006 timetable, but has run fast from Quintrel Downs to Par since May 2007.

Quintrell is about the quietest station on the line these days, however, all up trains have to stop there to operate the level crossing barriers, with SDO the summer HST services should really call at Bugle!

Yes trains ex NQY have to stop at Quintrel to wait for the barriers but QUI is easily the quietest station on the branch. The first train ex NQY runs fast QUI to PAR to help maintain the tight connection with the up Paddington service as its amazing how you loose time by stopping at a couple of shacks.

Bugle has the most potential, its well situated in an ever expanding village, summer HSTs should call, the SDO guide says Bugle can hold five carriages so no reason why on earth they couldnt try it out this summer....

Something like this then?

http://southwest-railways.50webs.com/Nqy-Par.htm

I'd retime your 19:20 ex Par back 20 mins to maintain connection with 15:05 ex PAD< could still return at 20:35. Nice idea, like the Bugle stop on the HST!!

Not in the same language I know, but the potential time saving was pretty much Jacobs reasoning for closing some of the intermediate stations.

Dont get me wrong, I am not necessarily saying that something untoward is going on here, merely that it is yet another interesting coincidence.....

Ah yes, was simply trying to replicate the previous xx20 working, as I hate changing them  :D

1505 is hardly the most punctual train in the world anyway!

^ Well done with that, looks like a fitting summer timetable for connections to Par and all the intermediate stations. It's certainly high time the stations were given the chance of a decent service to see what that would do to the passenger numbers. I too am very interested in the HST stop at Bugle!

I've always thought that Newquay deserves a decent summer weekday service as not everyone goes on holiday just at the weekend.

Its not the quantity of trains I wanted. I wanted them to not be at obscure times and to connect onto other trains aswell as provide good morning and afternoon connections, to schools.

Do you think that the stations should get a service at Saturdays when XCs and HSTs operate along the route? (Assuming the St Ives route hasn't opened). I think so, but it's a matter of whether they can be timed to fit in with the long distance trains.

I think Newquay is pretty much at Capacity during summer saturday. Perhaps stops at Bugle could be made by FGW HSTs though.

This weeks Cornish Guardian (out today 23rd) has the front cover story on possibilty of relaying the missing section to reroute the Newquay line to St.Austell...... Not that its going to happen, just councillors trying to look green.

Pray to the Great God Brunel it might just Happen.

I suppose one way could be a service from Stourport on Severn - Hartlebury - Droitwich Spa - Worcester Shrub Hill to Oxford, Reading and London (Waterloo?). Obviously, other towns could be served enroute - don't worry!

The first and third places are large towns without a direct service to London. The first place does not even have a line anymore (axed in the 60s, line ripped up in the 70s/80s when freight ended)! The second place is a village (the former junction)

Of course, my real excuse here is the fact that it would give the Cotswold passengers a different choice of TOC - but I suppose they would be no better than FGW!

I know that there would be congestion problems in the Worcester/Reading/London area (making it impractible) but it is idea, which perhaps others could build on/ mould. ???

Or an extension from Hereford to Ludlow and Shrewsbury etc.??

All ideas!!!

Somewhere else on the board is possible Hereford London service via the East curve at Newport (Maindee). It could then run several ways to London direct via Parkway, or  Bath or Westbury pass and then Padd via Newbury or Waterloo via Salisbury.

It could even terminate at Kensington Olympia.

Beacuse of the restrictions on intermeadiate stops imposed on open access operators you need to find a route which doesn't have direct services to London from which there is sufficient demand for a through service. For instance if it went via Westbury it could only pick up passengers from Bathampton Trowbridge etc for London and set them down on the way back. It probably wouldn't be allowed to stop at Salisbury for instance although whether it could stop at Reading or Woking to set down only for Heathrow is another question. I can't see Reading London passengers forgoing their devine right to jump on the first (smal f) fast train to London

it's not easy being an open access operator. 

On reviewing the Situation, (like old man Faggin in Oliver) on the Nqy-Par timetable shown on the link above, Problem: Where would the 15.10 Newquay-Padd Cross the (13.40 Ply) 14.40 Par-Newquay service?

No - just what W&S have found out!

Although strangely, they have turned down an opportunity to stop at Birmingham International! Mad!