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Journey by Journey => Plymouth and Cornwall => Topic started by: Chris from Nailsea on February 06, 2011, 13:35:05



Title: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 06, 2011, 13:35:05
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-12343732):

Quote
Residents of a Cornish hamlet have called on Network Rail to stop construction of an 80ft radio mast near their homes.
The company has admitted not everyone living in Sandplace near Looe was told about the plan due to an "administrative error".
It claims the mast improves reliability and allows for 100% signal coverage.
But one resident, Derek Bolton, said the mast had been sited "on top of people's homes".
Steven Wright said the work was being carried out without any consultation with residents.
"They're doing everything by the back door," he said.
Network Rail have pledged to paint the completed mast green in an attempt to reduce its impact on the area.
Speaking on BBC Radio Cornwall Caroline Foster said she was concerned about the impact on the ecology of the area.
The radio waves were being broadcast on frequencies that would affect the local bat population and small vertebrates, she said.
Network Rail has insisted it is complying with an EU safety directive and that the mast meets guidelines for power output, frequency and safety.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 07, 2011, 18:27:15
Update, from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-12380978):

Quote
Network Rail stops work on 80ft mast in Cornwall

Network Rail has stopped work on an 80ft (24m) communications mast, after people living nearby said they were not told about the construction.

The company has apologised to residents of Sandplace, near Looe, Cornwall, and a month-long consultation has begun.

Network Rail said it was due to an "administrative error", but BBC News has been told of other cases where it appears residents were not told.

The company said it was happy to look into it and see what could be done.

Network Rail said the masts helped to provide a system for train drivers and signallers to communicate, and would reduce the risk of serious accidents.

Local resident, Steven Wright said the work had been carried out without any consultation with residents. "They're doing everything by the back door," he said.

Network Rail has insisted it is complying with an EU safety directive and that the mast meets guidelines for power output, frequency and safety.

BBC News has been told the company does not need planning permission, but it is obliged to consult councils and MPs.

Network Rail has agreed to do no more work on the Sandplace mast until full consultations have taken place.

In another case, Michael and Jenny Cochrane said the company failed to tell them about a mast that was erected along the Truro to Falmouth branch line at Trewedna Hill.

Mr Cochrane said the mast was built within a day. "By lunchtime this mast was on the horizon, completely ruining our 180 degree view", he added.

Mrs Cochrane said, "It's a monstrosity. They admitted they should have contacted us."


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: peterswest on February 23, 2011, 10:32:20
Just have a look around and open yr eyes !! All around the country these masts have been erected , has been going on a few years now ! Yes , most of them are eyesores , just look at the one put up at the golf course end of Par Docks , its huge !  Any complaints about that one .................... no !
 The railway has been crying out for a modern , digital , safe communications method and this is it , if the line isn't covered by this new radio system, there will be no line , which one do you want ?

Pete


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: Tim on February 23, 2011, 10:57:38
Good to see that they are investing in this branch line. 


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: molinnis on February 26, 2011, 11:53:29
Another mast making the local news. From the Cornish Times.



Anger over ^eyesore^ mast at station

Friday, 25 February 2011

Carrie Garrad

Residents of a Liskeard estate are seething after a 29m (95ft) mast appeared at the town^s train station over the weekend.
Network Rail has erected the mast as part of its plans to build a nationwide Railway Communications System which will enable direct communication between train drivers and signallers. The company, which is not required to seek planning permission for works carried out on the land it owns, contacted residents closest to the site in May and October and said it also sent letters to Liskeard Town Council and MP Sheryll Murray.
Trevillis Park resident Katie Swancutt, 27, was not informed of the plans despite others along her street being told.
She said: ^I woke up on Saturday morning and went to open my curtains as usual and without warning or consultation a 29m mast had appeared.
^After hearing the stories about Sandplace and Trewedna on the Falmouth branch line, I am amazed to see the ^back door^ technique used here in Liskeard as well. It is a monstrosity!^




Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 26, 2011, 11:55:52
Thanks for posting that further story, molinnis.

If I may, I'll merge it with the existing topic - just for the sake of clarity and continuity.

Chris.  :)


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: The Tall Controller on February 26, 2011, 15:33:45
you can now join the Facebook group to stop the mast at Sandplace! You can also see a few pics of what they think the mast will look like at the station.....http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-the-Mast-at-Sandplace/137154806348030


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: paul7575 on February 26, 2011, 16:46:56
Waste of time.  The mast will have to be put up somewhere , firstly because it is permitted development, and secondly GSM(R) is a national policy requirement as the existing NRN frequencies have been reallocated for other purposes by OFCOMM.

Paul


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: peterswest on March 04, 2011, 08:03:08
As I said in an earlier post , if the masts don't go up , you'll lose the train service in the near future , national coverage is required, no exceptions !
 I await the " Save the Looe valley line from closure" Facebook page soon :)
 What makes this different from anywhere else ?? OK , you live there , noone complained to the TWO masts put up in Luxulyan Valley last year why ? Because noone lives there

Pete


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: RailCornwall on March 04, 2011, 14:08:34
A Satellite solution would have inevitably been more efficient and cheaper and less of a series of eyesores.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: Tim on March 04, 2011, 14:32:28
A Satellite solution would have inevitably been more efficient and cheaper and less of a series of eyesores.

Or more but shorter masts might be appropriate for sensitive locations


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: MrC on March 04, 2011, 16:57:11
A Satellite solution would have inevitably been more efficient and cheaper and less of a series of eyesores.

Inevitably? Presumably that's a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment?

The power required to get a signal back up to satellites from each train would require significant upgrades to trains that are already on their limit for additional kit like ERTMS. How are trains going to have guaranteed two-way comms in bad weather, or in cuttings and tunnels? Don't forget that GSM(R) is a prerequisite for ERTMS so no signal = no trains. Plus it's unlikely that you'd be able to provide enough UK-wide contingency or ground cover from just one satellite so you'd need /at least/ two and probably more. Then there's the fact that satellites capable of handling enough channels for each and every train aren't going to be cheap (it's not just broadcast technology here).

So AFAICS satellites are a complete and utter non-starter.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: Tim on March 04, 2011, 18:04:27
So AFAICS satellites are a complete and utter non-starter.

I suppose a satellite is less likely to get nicked for scrap


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: paul7575 on March 04, 2011, 20:40:00
So AFAICS satellites are a complete and utter non-starter.

I suppose a satellite is less likely to get nicked for scrap

Unless those blokes who 'tarmac your drive, guv' develop their own space programme... 

[Hopefully that won't be seen as a non PC comment]

Paul


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: JayMac on March 04, 2011, 20:51:06
[Hopefully that won't be seen as a non PC comment]

Depends. Are you using a Mac?  ;) :D ;D

<coat fetched>


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: smokey on March 05, 2011, 13:04:13
Network Rail do not need planning permission for Items associated with the running of the Railway,
So Signals, Retaining walls, Relay rooms, Signal boxes, etc, do not need planning permission, but buildings not associated with direct running operation do need planning permission.

It's not always the case that NR don't need planning permission.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: RailCornwall on March 05, 2011, 17:52:49
I'll add that a Satellite solution is already implemented for similar needs in Canada, Australia, the US, Japan and China. Indeed a test was done in the late 1990's in the UK. Satellite availablility in cuttings and tunnels would be on a par with a land based radio solution. NR aren't wiring tunnels are they? Telemetry would fed back on next acquisition.

It wouldn't need dedicated satellites or Ground Facilities, these could be provided on a leased basis and with appropriate diversity of uplinks and backhauls to and from the UK anywhere within the Satellite Footprint. For a fleet of 10-20K vehicles, which I imagine to be all mobile trains in the UK at any one time,  the Access Control System would only be a couple of rack based PCs together with the associated modems. The advantages would be enormous with GPRS feedback instantly to a central resource.

The power requirements onboard the trains would be commensurate with a few mobile phone chargers. Satcom uplinks aren't energy gobblers, as the Iridium hand helds demonstrate. A small dish assembly mounted on the roof of the train would be needed.

Incidentally, I do know what I'm talking about with almost 25 years in Satellite Comms dealing with Maritime, Land based and Aeronautical Mobile Applications at Goonhilly.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: MrC on March 05, 2011, 19:04:59
I'll add that a Satellite solution is already implemented for similar needs in Canada, Australia, the US, Japan and China.
.....

Interesting - I sit corrected  :)

However, having had a very quick look around the few satellite based communications and control (as opposed to just positioning) systems there appear to be a number of identified problems (such as reliability in tunnels, cuttings, built-up areas and in high speed/density rail networks) which raise some question marks, whereas GSM-R is more of a known working product and available off the shelf now. The train control systems using satellite based positioning systems still require land based comms of some type, and many seem to be still in the proving or pilot stages.

Oh, and GSM-R (as well as the older CSR; not sure about NRN) does cater for tunnels. I suppose being momentarily out of data comms contact in a small tunnel can be allowed for by having balises etc in the relevant places (but you'd still have issues with stop orders), however any large tunnels or a concentration of tunnels could be an issue. You could allow for this by having alternative comms setups around these areas but you're adding development time, complexity and cost while GSM-R still works. There's a separate issue for voice comms where you need guaranteed availability at all times.

So it looks like satellite will be useful in the future, but we aren't there yet so ERTMS/GSM-R is what we get today.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: peterswest on March 06, 2011, 09:20:28
I think that you will get the " Green" mast option from Network Rail , this seems to happen when a mast is seen to be an "eyesore" to the local area . They could , of course , try the " tree" looking option  , there is one on rattery bank , between Totnes and Marley tunnel ! Next time yr on a train , see if you can pick it out ( easier in the Winter)  :)
 n.b The tree one was put up by mobile phone companies ,its not for GSMR !


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: devon_metro on March 06, 2011, 16:21:05
I think that you will get the " Green" mast option from Network Rail , this seems to happen when a mast is seen to be an "eyesore" to the local area . They could , of course , try the " tree" looking option  , there is one on rattery bank , between Totnes and Marley tunnel ! Next time yr on a train , see if you can pick it out ( easier in the Winter)  :)
 n.b The tree one was put up by mobile phone companies ,its not for GSMR !

There is also one on Hill Head in Torbay. Peculiar looking things...


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: JayMac on March 13, 2011, 20:36:52
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12726652):

Quote
Protests over railway radio masts in Devon and Cornwall

MPs and people in Devon and Cornwall living near planned railway radio masts have criticised the structures which do not need planning permission.

The 95ft (29m) tall masts are being put up along main and branch lines for new digital radio communications equipment.

Protesters said there should be more consultation with nearby residents over their installation.

Network Rail said the masts were necessary and erected within the law and it worked to reduce visual impact.

The masts are among 2,200 being built across the country by Network Rail to improve communications between drivers and signallers and reduce the risk of serious accidents.

System recommended

After the Ladbroke Grove railway accident in 1999, where 31 people died and more than 500 were injured, the Cullen Report recommended a new communications system.

The masts do not need planning permission because Network Rail has permitted development rights. But it is obliged to consult councils, MPs and residents who live within 660ft (200m) of any site.

Geoffrey Cox, Conservative MP for Torridge and West Devon, said Network Rail should consult with those affected early on.

"A company [Network Rail] that really wants to endear its support to the public would want to consult people straight away," he said.

Construction work has begun on a mast in Bere Ferrers in the Tamar Valley in Devon.

Critics claim the mast, and others due to be built at nearby Bere Alston and Calstock in Cornwall, will stand out in an area of extreme natural beauty.

Bere Ferris parish councillor Brian Lamb added that critics were not sure if such masts were needed on all branch lines.

"It's a just a single-track line and we cannot see any justification for this," he said.

Network Rail said: "Our aim is to make the railways safer and more reliable for the passengers travelling everyday.

"When selecting a mast site, we take care to minimise any visual impact."

Sheryll Murray, the Conservative MP for South East Cornwall, is planning to meet the transport minister and has said she will be asking questions in the House of Commons about the matter.

The Department for Transport said Network Rail was "best placed to make a decision about the location of a new mast".


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: RailCornwall on March 13, 2011, 23:15:15
There really is no justification for the railway having such planning permission exemption, if Arqiva had to gain planning permission to place new Digital Terrestrial antennae on every transmitter in the Country as part of Digital Switchover there's no reason why ALL railway construction shouldn't have to go through gaining permission.



Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: inspector_blakey on March 14, 2011, 15:01:57
Whilst it's certainly an oddity of planning law that railway companies can built more or less whatever they like within the boundaries of their property, I think the comparison between a safety-critical radio system that's needed for the operation of the railway and digital TV masts is a little spurious.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: RailCornwall on March 14, 2011, 15:28:24
Whether it's safety critical or not PP should be required, if so more care would be exercised in the design and functional requirements for such systems.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 14, 2011, 15:48:08
To be fair, even where Network Rail do not need to go through the 'normal' planning permission process, they are still obliged to consult councils, MPs and residents who live within 660ft (200m) of any site.

As I understand it, it was the 'administrative oversight' of that requirement at Sandplace that led them to suspend work for a month there, while such a consultation was conducted.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: old original on March 14, 2011, 17:26:28
If it's for any official or national scheme, I think the planning permission thing is a bit of a red herring really. How many of the hundreds of mobile 'phone masts and police tetra masts that, theoretically, have needed permission to be put up over the last 10 years or so, ever got refused?


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: peterswest on March 14, 2011, 17:32:08
Perhaps the residents of Bere Alston and Sandplace can club together and provide the consultation fees as to the plans  they want instead ?
 Take a peek at the mast just to the north of Plymouth station when your next travelling on a train...... now thats worth complaining about if you lived the 20-30 odd metres away from it , but... its up already !
pete


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 01, 2011, 16:32:48
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-12938306):

Quote
Plans for railway radio mast in Cornwall abandoned

The building of an 80ft (24m) railway communications mast between Liskeard and Looe in Cornwall has been halted after opposition from nearby residents.

Network Rail was criticised for poor consultation over plans for the mast.

The company said it was considering building several smaller masts along the branch line instead.

It said its new national communications system for train drivers would improve safety and help safeguard the future of branch lines.

Representatives of Network Rail met with objectors and local councillors on Thursday to discuss the mast plans and concerns over its location in Sandplace and its height.

Critic Steve Wright, who lives directly opposite where the mast was to be completed, said they "immediately agreed that the position was unacceptable".

He said: "It was as totally different approach by them and they were willing to listen and consider the arguments we put forward. Visually it was terrible. It ruined the whole look of Sandplace; and there were other considerations, such as it being a road hazard. I think that finally they felt they had to listen to us."

Network Rail said it was pleased to have been able to work with residents to reach a satisfactory compromise. It said: "The unique topography and operation of the Looe Valley railway has allowed us to consider an alternative solution, which could be less intrusive to residents yet achieve 100% communication coverage to run trains safely."

The company said it had invited key community representatives to help identify replacement sites for the smaller structures and that it hoped to present new plans in May.


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: smokey on April 15, 2011, 19:29:19
I don't take prisoners, let's cause NR a BIG HEADACHE.

Penzance Station is I understand a LISTED building.

So who allowed Network Rail to remove the Top Light windows on the roof of Penzance station clearly seen from the road outside the Longboat Hotel?

 


Title: Re: Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall
Post by: inspector_blakey on April 15, 2011, 20:17:58
Just a thought, but possibly the planning authority? A building being listed doesn't mean that it cannot be touched at any point in the future, just that there needs to be a consultation process and permission given before any major alterations happen.

And just as an afterthought, I can't find a listing for the station here (http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/england/cornwall/penzance). Not sure how authoratative that databse is, or if I've just missed it, but there's a chance you're mistaken about it being listed in the first place.

By the way, what's the relevance of this to the erection of radio masts...? ;)



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