Great Western Coffee Shop

Just returned from a couple of days in Edinburgh. Whilst waiting for a Glasgow service at Haymarket I saw immaculate Class 170's on the Bathgate suburban service, and also travelled on a Class 170 on the Fife Circle route. Of the local services, any trains that weren't Class 170 seemed to be Class 158, and all were in exceptionally good condition, inside and out. Not a sight of a Pacer or Class 150.

And the TOC in question, yes, of course, it's FIRST Scotrail.

Apart from the obvious poser as to why such high quality stock is being used on suburban services, (which I guess is down to the Scottish transport policy), I wondered why one part of First maintains its trains so well, whilst another can't be bothered to do more than the barest minimum, and then 18 months late.

Just as I was feeling nostalgic for our rolling stock, to my surprise into Haymarket rolled an Alphaline Class 158 with unrefurbished seating (you know, the ones that look just awful when you enter the carriage.) It just highlighted the difference in what we had to put up with compared with the service other areas of the country are enjoying.   

Out of the 4 franchises first have, 50% are doing well (scotrail and pennie) whilst the other 2 are an absolute mess.


lets hope fgw get there stuff sorted out asap down south :|

I understand that the 158 refurbishement program that's currently underway is a continuation of the Scotrail one ... so that all of our units should also be up to that standard 11 months from now.

And whats wrong with 150's in principal? best units we've got and thankfully we'll have more of them from 2009!

I'm afraid your comment indicates what a dire state we've got accustomed to in this region, and how low our expectations have become. We're grateful at the possible prospect of getting 20+ year old hand-me down stock in 2 years time, released when the travellers in the West Midlands get their brand new rolling stock.  If the stock isn't good enough to continue to run trains in the WM for the next 10 years then it shouldn't be good enough for us.

So, what makes the WM franchise get new stock when the FGW one doesn't? Maybe it's because the DfT realised they went too far with the FGW agreement. But if that's the case, why should we suffer for the next 10 to 15 years, first with Pacers that nobody else wants, then discarded Class 150s.   

I work on a variety of trains from 158's, HST's, Turbo's and i've travelled around an awful lot and just because somethings old it doesn't mean it's past it, MKII and MKIII (built in the 70's and 80's) stock is about the most comfortable stock you can travel on and yet Virgin replaced it with crappy Voyagers that are NEW! 150's are good unit's, theyre robust, ride well, you can cram loads of people into them, reliable, quick accellaration/braking and if they're refurbished then they look just as tidy as anything new. When Wessex refurbished them a few years ago most of the travelling public thought they were new trains!

I've seen that even that may not happen now and that these 150/1s may be going to Northern but Im sure we will see a few down these parts.

Am I correct in thinking that the WM franchise includes the operation of the CENTRO services for the WMPTE. Am I also right in thinking that the WMPTE also pay a subsidy to the operator to run the CENTRO services and thus there is a requirement for a lower level of subsidy for the WM franchised services from Central Government.

Therefore give the WM franchise (and other revenue supported franchises) decent / new stock or else passenger numbers will decline and Central Government will be called upon to increase the level of subsidy support.

Those franchises where Central Government expects to receive a premium for running the franchise can have the crap rolling stock. Then, hopefully, the TOC's bidding to operate thses franchises will 'bid-up' their bids knowing that they have lower leasing costs and thus offer higher premium payments which can be used to provide future subsidies to the supported franchises. And oh yes, when more new stock is mooted, this will then go to the supported franchises to keep passengers happy and numbers up and the premium paying franchises can have the cascaded stock, which will then be the crap rolling stock.

Question, wont the premium paying franchise passengers forsake rail travel in favour of road transport. Nope, the traffic is gridlocked in the morning and evening peaks in the major cities and on the M4 so these passengers aren't going to deliberately double or more their daily commutes to and from work.

Carry on suffering.... We could make an Ealing comedy of that title centred on a certain TOC, now that would take the micheal.

Plus the 150's arnt supposed to be replaced until 2010 (say wikipedia)

so it could be a while...

We're supposed to be getting two next year from the former Silverlink franchise, we're getting a further six in late 2009 and the rest in 2010.

Thats good news. BTW I agre with your summary about old being better than new at times. Give me MKII/MKIII over riding on a Voyager anyday! 150s have been a great servant these past twenty or so years and very rarely breakdown. Sure they arent luxury but they do the job. But I think the best DMU you can travel on at the moment is a 158. Turbos...no thanks!

I entirely agree that the Mk2 and 3 are far superior to Voyagers, partly down to the lack of an engine a foot or so beneath your seat, and partly because the interior of the Voyagers are deficient in just about every way (and having sat in two for 14 hours this week, believe me, I know how uncomfortable they can be.)

Electric units again if well maintained and refurbished seem to be able to go on forever, or at least until the latest H&S or Disability Discrimination Directive forces their withdrawal.

But I'm not sure I agree for diesel units, which after 20 years or so, seem to become rather worn out, no matter what is done to tart them up inside. Mind you the SWT Cl 159 does prove a strong argument against my view. From my perspective the Class 170 is far superior than the 158 though. It seems much quieter internally, and would prove a very acceptable stock for, say, the Portsmouth service.       

I fully agree that 170/168's are far superior to 150's but my point is that 150's are perfect for the job they do! They still use 156's in Scotland which are as old as 150's but are just about the most reliable DMU design ever built!

It appears we are getting 150/1s though, about as useful as a pacer - no corridor and totally unstandard as the rest of our fleet.

How are they non standard? same engine/transmission/bodyshell/ no they don't have gangway connections on the cab ends but otherwise exactly the same as a 150/2, infact they don't have any local door switches as they have a proper guards door so one less thing to go wrong! Far superior to a pacer!

Actually, I quite like 150/1's, a LOT more than 150/2's!

How are they non-standard, they are basically the same!

142's aren't really non standard as they can be used in multiple with all of our other DMU's.