Great Western Coffee Shop

I'm no expert in the fares and retail side of train travel, I'm more interested in the operational and geographical nature of the railways, so apologies of this is already well known!!

One simple question.........

Why does a SDR from Yate to Bath Spa cost ^7.60 but a SDR from Bristol Parkway to Bath Spa costs ^8.50?

Yesterday, I paid more to travel a shorter distance than the person opposite me!!

Possible answers:
1. For historic reasons.
2. Fares are set on what the market will bear.
3. Different companies set the fare.
4. The different cost of handling passengers at different stations.
5. Higher fares per mile for "intercity" journeys (i.e. at faster average speed)
6. Fares sometimes lower at stations with fewer trains

Look also at:
Westbury to Paddington v Castle Cary to Paddington
Melksham to Weymouth v Swindon to Weymouth
Shirehampton to Waterloo v Trowbridge to Waterloo
and you'll probably find equivalent issues of longer journey / less expensive fare for at least some ticket types.

Rip off Britain - it disgusts me, and doesn't do the railways any favours.

I'd like to think it is market forces, supply and demand and the effects of competition, rather than the tired clich^ of 'Rip-off Britain'.

There are anomalies in the system but they aren't there to rip people off, they are just the product of a complex fares system that has been been tinkered with, rather than overhauled, down the years.

And for every anomaly that can be regarded as benefiting the TOCs there will be another that benefits the passenger. One thing the Fares and Pricing Managers must hate is split ticketing. A great cost saving benefit for the passenger (enshrined in the Conditions of Carriage) but a headache for TOCs when they are trying to accurately forecast revenue and demand. A popular 'split' point like Didcot Parkway must have seriously skewed statistics, for example.

It would be straightforward if fares were indeed set on what the market will bear. However, the restrictions on fares changes means that it's those changes that are the controlling influence about "what the market will bear". And what that results in is BNM's description of a system that has been tinkered with.

Meanwhile, is it possible that what we have here is an anomaly which has survived over the years - that Yate-Bath fares were originally set on the basis of the old route via Mangotsfield, and have never been increased to bring them into line with the Parkway ones?

I respect the opinion of others regarding this and acknowledge the wider picture.

However, I stick to the "cliche" - it is obvious to me that in certain cases, TOCs have used the "complex" fare system to screw the passenger over BIG TIME:

*The very fact that Swindon fares have gone up so much is purely to maximise revenue. I am delighted that savvy commuters are sticking two fingers up at the system by splitting at Didcot, and hopefully over the years the difference in price will be reduced to prevent this. NSE was axed years ago - I'm SICK of this being used as the excuse (I understand the difference in regulated fares that caused this - still no excuse for such a discrepancy).

*I think the DISGUSTING tactic used by certain TOCs of introducing a new fare level, whilst racking up the price and restrictions on the existing fare is nothing short of daylight robbery and should be challenged in the courts. As normal, it is hard working middle class families that are forced to fork out the extra.

*The price of a SOR Manchester to London is ridiculous. This, combined with peak lasting until 11.30 (not to mention the bungled introduction of restrictions + eye watering price increase on the ALR when fleeced commuters attempted to save money), is again a blatant shot in the arm of the passenger. After HS2, I will expect this fare to be lowered DRAMATICALLY and restructions on the ALR to be AXED.

Yate to Bath Spa is an interesting one and one I wasn't previously aware of - so thanks go to ReWind for that. I note that the fares; Filton Abbey Wood <-> Bath Spa are also set at the same prices as those; Bristol Parkway <-> Bath Spa.

Would anyone care to memo the MoD at Abbey Wood and let all those staff with season tickets to/from Bath know that there is an option that would save them a few bob?


Unfortunately anyone attempting a legal challenge is likely on a hiding to nothing. A regulated fare for the majority of flows (be that Off Peak, Super Off Peak or commuter season) and peak time hours are written into the franchise agreements. So It'd have to be the DfT and/or the ORR that you'd need to take to court. Good luck with that!

I would suggest you look that phrase up to discover what it actually means...

Stations, with some exceptions, are in fare groups, hence Abbeywood & Yate having the same fare to Bath.

Didcot is being sorted slowly, but unfairly (to Didcot users particulary) by raising fares into/out of there hugely. Thus making going anywhere from there hugely expensive, in comparison to other journeys of a similar distance.

It's no fault of the Didcot users, and its completely unfair

Somebody call?   ;D ;D

Seriously though did these sort of fare anomolies exist before BR was broken up into sectors? 

Fair play - note the time I wrote the post! Replace with "slap in the face". Or simply treat the phrase literally...

Hmmm ... Chris, I think many of us would regard "fair" in terms of balance between places along a line as paying the same pence per mile for any journey, or perhaps paying a certain number of pence per mile plus a certain amount per ticket.

So on the current Bristol to London service (all based on single peak tickets):

Bristol to London 120 miles 84.50 fare 70.4 pence per mile
Bath to London 116 miles 79.50 fare 68.5 pence per mile
Chippenham to London 100 miles 69.50 fare 69.5 pence per mile
Swindon to London 82 miles 54.50 fare 66.5 pence per mile
Didcot to London 73 miles 26.00 fare 35.6 pence per mile
Reading to London 42 miles 19.50 fare 46.4 pence per mile

A total basket - 1 of each - is 533 miles, 343.50 fare, 64.4 pence per mile.
With a fixed amount of 5 pounds per ticket plus 58.8 pence per mile, that would also bring in 343.50 for the basket.

So fare's fairer would be:
Bristol to London 77.30 or 75.60
Bath to London 74.70 or 73.20
Chippenham to London 64.40 or 63.80
Swindon to London 52.80 or 53.20
Didcot to London 47.00 or 47.95
Reading to London 27.05 or 29.70

I've used the AA's road mileage for this (I'm not sure that rail fares should be based on the rail distance, especially for journeys that the DfT / TOC choose not to provide a direct route, even though there has been one in the past), and I haven't weighted the figures based on the proportion of passengers from each station. But unless people travelling to / from Didcot were promised lower fares in perpituity at some point, then I really don't see how setting fares on a level playing field is unfair to them.  Unwelcome, yes, which is probably why no politician would dare do it ...

I stand to be corrected - but isn't Didcot 53 miles to Paddington not 73?  I seem to remember it is the same distance from London as Newbury.  I think rail mileages are more representative.  After all some journeys are greatly exadurated by road as they cannot take the same route as rail.  On a smaller scale the Henley Branch.  You can't get from Wargrave to Shiplake without a lengthy detour by road.

Didcot to London by road sends you nearly down to Newbury ... but all the other mileages are higher too.  I would suspect that a "lower of road and rail" would be fairer and in the case of the journeys on this corridor.   I would go for "crow flies" stuff, except I can see a distortion in everyone buying Sheerness to Shoeburyness tickets and getting off somewhere short like in London.

Wargrave to Shiplake by Road?   Try Culrain to Inveshin, or Morfa Mawddach to Barmouth  ;)

Bob - you are very welcome to play with algorithms and distances - I would find other comparative tables beyond my very rough one to be very informative as to where a level playing field might take us (depending on various types of levelling!)

Hmm. Since you appear to be trying to set fares so that the operator doesn't lose revenue, you need to factor in the number of tickets sold for each of those journeys. You can't average averages!

RTFF ("Read the Footnote"):

"I haven't weighted the figures based on the proportion of passengers from each station." it sed  ;)

I would agree that the shorter journeys are probably higher flows, so that the actual figures could be factored down, or at least a couple of January rises could be passed over, as such a system came in.

Thanks for those figures - as long as you calculated the mileage all the same way, I don't think it matters, as we're just looking at the 'injustices' of fares.

Does look as though NSE Area fares do need to rise to match those outside still further. I stand corrected. Look forward to the squeels that will emanate from Reading one day...

I know, because that's what you did. But in order to come even close to the right answer, you have to!


I suspect that's not actually true, and the order is likely to be Reading, Bristol, Swindon, Bath, Chippenham, then Didcot. If you have to guesstimate the weighting, try multiplying the population of each place and divide by the square of the distance between them.

More frim Didcot than Chippenham & Bath. Count the number of trains in each peak...should give you some clue

So the most congested section of line that limits capacity (Reading Station and the line from Reading to Paddington) has the lowest fare per mile.  Market economics would suggest that this should have the highest fare per mile.

Perhaps ORR/DfT should ask itself whether there is some distortion of the market here.

If there was market pricing then the Reading to Paddington fares would have the highest fare per mile. 

Most passengers = smaller fare/mile, surely? Not the othercwsy round?

Not is you take a market economics approach.

1. My use of the line for longer distance passengers is limited by the short distance ones so I need the short distance passengers to pay more because I cannot collect more afres for the parts of the line where I have spare seats.

2. Excessive demand in the overcrowded section could be reduced by higher fares which would maximise income as demand suggest that some passengers are likely to be being put off by overcrowding.   

Or to look at it another way investment to increase capacity should be paid for equally by all passengers using overcrowded section. 

If the fares were "fairer" we wouldn't have to do split tickets to get cheaper more reasonable fares.

The walk-on fare for a Bristol-Birmingham return is ^45.70, which is absolutely ludicrous.  If I wish to travel to Birmingham(or onwards) at short notice I usually go via Worcester and the fare for splitting there is about ^18.40 return which is very good value.  But if I'm sensitive for time then I go via the direct route and split at Cheltenham and the fare is ^28.30 which is reasonable.  But ^45.70, no way siree am I paying that sort of money for a journey of about 85 miles in each direction.  Is it any wonder that I decide to split tickets to get my tickets at a more reasonable fare. 

Sometimes when I give my tickets into the conductor I hand both(or more) of my split tickets to the conductor.  Some of them give me a bit of a frown. Whilst some of them say "That's the way to do it".

I only ever pass over the ticket dfor whichever part of the journey I'm on at the time.

The NCoC require you to, when asked, show your tciket "for your Journey".  If your journey is defined as your complete journey (and there are some reasons for suggesting that it should be) the law arguably requires you to show both tickets.

I would err on the side of caution and show both tickets (when I do this the staff have never complained and always stamp both).  Att he very least it stops you being accused to trying to prevent tickets from being stamped so that they can be used again.
 

Conversely, I only hand over the ticket for the part of the journey I am currently on.

I often split tickets and make a break of journey. For example I recently went to London splitting my tickets at Didcot and spending 5 hours in the Railway Centre there. If I'd handed over both tickets and both got stamped then I could've faced problems using the second ticket later in the day - a TM could see the Zifa stamp and conclude that I was making a second journey on that ticket.

These anomalies exist with most transport. When BA flew from London, via Nairobi, to Malawi (Lilongwe) fares were usually considerable higher to get off at Nairobi. (But if you stayed off at Nairobi with a Lilongwe ticket, the return would be cancelled). Also, Condor fares to the channel islands can be higher than if you stay on the cat and go to St Malo.

I assume the splitting of tickets causes havoc with the statistics.  For example a Swindon to London Paddington journey split at Didcot Parkway would show as a passenger for both Swindon and Didcot's totals.

The question is does Didcot have a better than deserved train service because of people splitting? Should more trains run Reading - Swindon?

Certainly not in thevpeaks! Much needed! I suspect very few are splitting

Also, it isn't unknown for people travelling west from Didcot to split at Swindon, so perhaps it is Swindon that is being given the over generous service.  ;)

Bristol Parkway surely? Can you gain from Didcot, splitting at Swindon? The journey between the two is one if the most expensuve on FGW fir the time/distance!

A day return trip from Didcot Parkway to Cardiff Central will set you back ^44 for the cheapest through ticket; a Super Off Peak Return.

Splitting at Swindon brings that down to ^27.30. DID-SWI Off Peak Day Return ^9.40 plus SWI-CDF Off Peak Day Return ^17.90.

If you were to split at Bristol Parkway the total would be ^30.60

Same goes for most journeys (day return) from Didcot to South Wales, best to split at Swindon.

I was thinking more of an Anytime ticket(s). Still the same?

For my specific example of Cardiff it is just slightly cheaper to split at Bristol rather than Swindon when wanting fully flexible Anytime (return up to one month) tickets from Didcot. Go beyond Cardiff and it again is cheaper to split at Swindon.

For Off Peak (return up to one month) again it is cheaper to split at Swindon. For Super Off Peak there is no saving to be had by splitting.

could we not have a ticketing service where all fares are worked out in the same manner.
Perhaps a pence per mile charge,
Not sure what would be a good price, but looking a Paddington to Falmouth for example
a super off peak single is ^51,
Paddington to Falmouth is approx 300 miles (by road, quickest route)
so this is 17p a mile,
Plymouth to Falmouth is ^9.60 off peak single and around 65 miles. so about 14p a mile.

So we could have a flat single ticket cost of:
15p a mile off peak
30p a mile peak,
for a return jouney perhaps multiply the single fare by 1.5, (so my london example above would be ^75 approx)
perhaps double it for first class travel.

Such a ticket structure would get people out of their cars as it would be so much easier for them to see that train travel makes more economical sense. At the moment a lot of fares look like they are just random costings pulled out of a hat!