So back in November the first 197 entered passenger service on the Conwy Valley line. A sensible place to start them off being reasonably close to Chester depot and a single diagram that does the route all day that could easily be replaced with either a 150 or a bus if there were any issues. 

Last Monday they started being used on the Chester-Liverpool service and from today 2 diagrams on Manchester Airport-Llandudno (along with the Liverpool one so 3 in service today).  The Conwy Valley is a 150 today so unsure whether thats just substituting a 197 or they are concentrating them on the North Wales coast for now. 

I understand we wont get any in the South until the May TT change at the earliest, as to my knowledge training hasn't started at Cardiff and Carmarthen depots.  But the plan seems to be to get them onto all 175 routes by this time next year.  Fingers crossed all goes to plan. 

Some thoughts.....  I assume this is going to be from December 2023 as i dont think enough 197s will be available by the May 2023 TT change although I could be wrong. 

Its about time Swanline got an hourly service although its a shame on the down direction there isnt a bigger gap between other services going West from Cardiff.  In the up direction it looks like they leave Swansea around 5 minutes after the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) so thats an improvement as before the GWR had almost caught it up by Bridgend.  They also appear to be making stops at Pencoed etc between Bridgend and Cardiff (another reason it needs to depart Swansea after the GWR) providing a half hourly service for these stations whilst Maesteg still has an hourly service but goes to Ebbw Vale now rather than Cheltenham Spa. 

When I saw the list of timetables it said Swansea-Cheltenham Spa so at first glance of this i mistakenly thought the Swanline's were going to Cheltenham Spa which could have made sense given both these routes are being increased to hourly.  But it makes sense to keep them stand alone and the timings probably dont fit. 

It seems that Swanline and Pembroke Dock will be using 153s (pairs) initially before being replaced with 197s (I assume because 197s will be used on the Maesteg-Ebbw Vale, Newport-Ebbw Vale which also gets an hourly service and the Cheltenhams).  Interesting they chose to use 153s on Swanline rather than on Maesteg-Ebbw Vale as a stopgap, perhaps its something to do with moving sets back and forth to Swansea from Canton for the HOWL and Pembroke Dock.

It appears the Manchesters will still run every 2 hours from West Wales to Manchester with the other hour starting/terminating in Cardiff.  It looks like everything booked for a 175 will be changed to a 197 by next December so the 175s days are numbered.  Sad to see them go but understandable.  I guess the 150s and 158s will still be needed for a while.  150s on Valleys and 158s on Cambrian. Plus of course we are keeping the 153s for the HOW (plus Swanline and Pembroke for a while)  So it looks like the 170s and 175s will be next to go. 

The new hourly Swanline will be good as it will be easier to plan days out knowing there is an hourly service.  Hopefully it will improve usage at these stations too with less people travelling to Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot etc from these local communities.  Even with the extra stops at Pencoed etc it will still be quicker than going to a mainline station to get a faster train to Cardiff/Swansea for many.

Overall great to see some much needed improvements i just hope they will be able to deliver when the time comes.

Thanks for posting those timetables. Very interesting. I believe the last but one timetable posted is just before December 2005.  I think the 1233 from Neath was the one that went to Penzance (this didnt make Swanline stops, no doubt as it was already a very long journey to Penzance!).  I believe the 1150 went to Manchester and the 950 went to the Westcountry somewhere (possibly Exeter or Plymouth).  Hard to believe the service between Cardiff was so infrequent.  Sometimes only 1 train an hour.

I have a feeling it all changed with the December 2005 timetable and that's when they stopped the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) services to Bristol and the West of England.   With an hourly service to Manchester plus the two hourly Swanline the service level between Swansea and Cardiff went from approximately 1.5 trains per hour to 2.5 trains an hour.

I remember there was a daily service to Penzance which around 2004/2005 departed Swansea around midday. I dont think this one did Swanline stops as it wasnt part of the 2 hourly pattern. Most of the Swanline stoppers went to either Manchester or Bristol.  I seem to remember there was an hourly service going West, not sure if it was Carmarthen and Milford alternating as now.

I guess as Wessex trains operated a half hourly service to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) the ATW services werent required. Im not sure if Wessex Trains operated half hourly services to Bristol before Dec 2005 and thats why some ATW were required. 

I wondered if it was a franchise commitment to run Manchester-Carmarthen or actually from Manchester-Cardiff and Cardiff-Carmarthen and just run them as through services as its easier, especially as they use 175s. 

Am I correct in thinking before the December 2005 TT change Arriva/Wales and Borders only provided a 2 hourly service between Cardiff and Swansea which extended to various destinations after Cardiff - a few to Manchester, Bristol, Gloucester etc. These also called at Swanline stations. Then when the December 2005 timetable came in they stopped the services to Bristol and had an hourly service to Manchester.  Plus an extra 2 hourly for Swanline.  So there was a massive increase in services.

The 77 x 197s will on paper replace all 175s and 158s eventually (with the MK4 sets also replacing some 175s) plus a few 150s and 153s as they (197s) will be used on the Conwy Valley, Pembroke Dock etc.  The only old stock being kept are some 153s for the Heart of Wales line and possibly the Shrewsbury to Crewe stopper as they interwork with the Heart of Wales Line.

I think the pacers were replaced on paper with the introduction of 170s, 769s and extra 153s.  Using the 170s on Maesteg-Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale routes and extra 153s on Pembroke Dock and possible other routes allowed more 150s to be on the Valley Lines replacing pacers (along with the 769s on some Valley/Cardiff local routes).

Speaking as someone who lives close to a Swanline station, an hourly service would be ideal and id be much more likely to use my local station rather than travel to a larger station if I knew there were more suitable times.  Currently with it being 2 hourly i dont like to be tied to a certain time to return for example. With an hourly service it would be much more flexible.  Having said that I do still use Swanline stations when the timings work for me.

I have heard that the 2 car 170s are leaving by the end of the year. Therefore I assume some of the 175s/153s/150s displaced by the MK4 and 197s in the North will be used to cover some 170s.  I think the Cross Keys-Newport is already a single 153.  Unsure when the 3 car 170s are going.  The West Wales to Manchesters have been very busy every time ive caught them recently whether thats between Swansea-Cardiff of East or Cardiff and definately need at least 3 if not 4 carriages on every train.

Kidwelly and Ferryside no longer being request stops does make sense given they stop at them almost all the time. 

The doors being in the middle of the train on the 197s should help dwell time.

Its also about time Swanline as a stand alone service was returned. Im surprised it hasnt returned already.

Yes, I dont think they were ever planned to run as far as Milford Haven. Originally it was to be Swansea every other hour with the existing Manchester-Carmarthen the other hour. Now its been cut back to Cardiff every other hour aside from one journey each way from Swansea.  I assume the set that ends in Swansea will be stabled there overnight ready for the first train the following morning?  I agree its far too early to be much use. Running it an hour or two later would be better.  The return departure leaving Manchester at 1630 is decent though.

In the Summer I had the opportunity to travel on a 195 a few times whilst in Yorkshire. I understand the 197s will be almost identical inside to a 195. Overall I liked the 195s. However there seems to be a lack of space for much luggage and the seats not as comfortable for long journeys as a 175.  We shall see what the reaction is when they are finally introduced.  From what ive heard they will start with the December TT change in North Wales (Conwy Valley and Liverpool-Chester I think at first then Manchester-Llandudno/Holyhead etc).  I wouldnt be surprised if its a while before we see them in the Cardiff/South Wales routes.

Recently there seems to have been an issue with 175 availability as there are often 2 or 3 sprinters being used on the Manchester-South Wales workings each day. although during the past week ive noticed things have improved and some days almost all have been 175s when they should be.  Hopefully if 2 or 3 175s are spare from December we will see more 4 car formations on the ones currently 2 cars and the need for less sprinters covering. There should be no reason for them all not to be 175s (the ones that arent MK4!) from December TT if all goes to plan. If the 2 car sets were doubled up and then the 3 car ones remained as they are along with the MK4 that will provide much better capacity come December whilst still enough platform space for Swanline stops. 

It appears that as a result of TFW getting MK4 sets into service from the December timetable change there will be some major changes on the West Wales to Manchester services.

Apparently there are only enough MK4 sets to run most of the services from Cardiff to Manchester and return. This results in all of the current Manchester departures to Milford Haven which depart at half past the even hour terminating in Cardiff with a replacement service from Cardiff to Milford. The only hour that they continue further West is 1630 from Manchester but this only goes as far as Swansea.

The departures from Manchester at half past the odd hour appear unchanged and will run through to Carmarthen. In the other direction, the Milfords will run through to Manchester and the other hour from Carmarthen will terminate in Cardiff Central.

This has resulted in some broken connections.  In the up direction there is a connection off the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) but that means a half hour earlier start/half hour longer journey with a wait in Cardiff or Newport. And only useful if travelling from Swansea/Neath/Port Talbot/Bridgend.  Not useful if travelling from Llanelli etc. In the down direction the wait in Cardiff is the best part of an hour off the 0830 and 1030 departures from Manchester.  And that connection only takes you as far as Swansea.  There are connections off the 0630, 1230 and 1430 but in the case of the 1430 you would also need to change at Swansea as well as Cardiff if heading to Carmarthen.  Currently its a direct train!  The 1630 goes to Swansea with a suitable connection to Milford.  The 1730, 1930 and 2030 all go to Cardiff as they do currently so no changes there.  The 1830 requires a change at Cardiff and the replacement connecting train still goes via the district line Mon-Thurs so useless for Neath and Swansea and a long wait for the next GWR service for those stations (pretty much the same as now).

I suppose the sensible thing would be to just travel on the through services to/from places West of Cardiff which still run every other hour.  However this isnt a lot of use for Haverfordwest and Milford passengers in the down direction. Unless one travels on the 0630 and 1630 Manchesters where there are good connections the wait is going to be the best part of an hour at Cardiff.  I realise there arent that many who travel the full journey and most people alight at Cardiff in both directions but the passengers who do make the journey and are used to the hourly through trains to Carmarthen (and 2 hourly to Milford) are going to find it an inconvenience.  Its a shame the connections cant be changed at least in those hours where there is nothing further West from Cardiff for an hour (or nearly an hour), sometimes there is a 3 minute connection time which isnt sufficient due to the 7 minute minimum connection at Cardiff.  Hopefully this will be looked at and amended.

Fabulous to see an improved service on the HOWL.  They deserve a better service.  Especially a later evening departure at both ends of the line. 

I noticed the Royal Welsh train was cancelled on Thursday evening.  I wonder if Road Replacement transport was arranged. i was keeping a check on what was used all week and its seems the Royal Welsh train was 3 carriages all week (either 3 x 153 or a 153 and 150).  A lot of other HOWL services were also 2 car instead of a single 153.  Often a 150. I suppose the cancellations in the North due to the heatwave on Mon/Tues helped as Conwy Valley and Chester/Crewe, Liverpool/Chester were cancelled, some of those are 150s/153s.  They also seem to have 2 x 150s on loan from Northern Rail which helps. 

Its quite poor if no alternative was provided. Especially as its not like there is another train an hour later.  I wonder how busy the Royal Welsh train is and the other HOWL during that week.

Its a shame the 175s aren't being kept.  I wonder if its because Chester depot where they are kept is being taken over with the 197s and there isnt enough space to keep them.  I also wonder if the reason so many sprinter substitutions over the years on 175 routes is because they aren't that reliable.   

Swanline definately needs a better service. I understand a lack of train crew/units is the reason its currently part of the Manchester service. Its an easy service to cancel given the Manchester trains can easily add the stops with shorter dwell times at some stations and a slightly shorter turnaround at Milford/Carmarthen. But the Manchester trains always seem busy between Swansea and Cardiff so sometimes adding the Swanline stops is a massive hindrance to an already busy train. 

The original TFW franchise was for 15 years (2018-2033) and the 170s were meant to stay for the duration of the franchise so I assume the 153s will now instead.  I think the plan was 2 car 170s on the HOWL/Crewe local and 3 cars on the West Wales workings to Pembroke Dock.   The HOWL probably runs at a massive loss as lots of passengers use their bus passes for free travel during the Winter months. So I can understand why they wouldn't want to spend on new trains.   But keeping the 20ish year old 175s would be better than using nearly 40 year old ancient trains.  Unless the 175s are going elsewhere. 

Occasionally 158s appear on the West Wales to Manchester's and they still have booked work on weekends I think.
But otherwise it seems to be a pair of 153s that replace 175s now.  There seems to be at least one diagram each day where this happens.

Id like to see an improvement on Swanline timetable too.  Reinstating the proper Swanline services would be a start but id like to see it become hourly in time.  There are massive gaps in both the morning and evening timetable.  e.g nothing from 0700 until gone 0900 and in the evening there is a massive gap going West from Cardiff between 1905 and around 2315. 

I'd probabaly go to Pembroke next time or somewhere else on the line.  I wanted to go to the Dock to complete the entire line.  I noticed Manobier needing a mandatory stop in the up direction for the crossing.  Apart from Saundersfoot on the down journey being missed I think all other request stops were used.  On the HOW line i find a good proportion of them are skipped - I dont think ive ever known the train to stop at Bynea for example (perhaps the infrequent service and it being so close to Llanelli put people off)  and there are several at the Northern end.  Once when i travelled it skipped 4 request stops a row (Pen Y Bont, Dolau, Llanbister Road and Llangynllo) but on the main line Kidwelly and Ferryside are very rarely missed. And I remember when Gowerton used to be a request stop.   I like the idea of the HOW having a better service at the South end.  Something like Llandeilo to Swansea or Llanelli every 2 hours.  This is by far the area of the line which would have the most passengers. 

Yes ive heard that 8 x 153s are being retained by TFW.  I think i heard that they would be doubled up which would mean 3 diagrams consisting of 2 x 153s each for the HOW/Crewe Local services with the possibility of a few Swanline/Carmarthen services depending where the sets are to be kept overnight/maintenance carried out.  The other 2 I guess would be maintenance/spares.  I find it rather surprising TFW is keeping the ancient 153s.  Keeping the 2 car 175s for HOW and Pembroke Dock would be my preferred option. The 175s are such nice units, especially now they have had a good refurbishment by TFW.  Its a shame to lose them.   The 153s have had a decent refurb too.  Im not against them staying it just seems odd given almost everywhere else will be getting new stock.  I wonder how long realistically the 153s can be kept given they are already approaching 40 years old I think. 

I think the ex Northern 153s at Landore are there for spare parts?  I also saw a 150 there last week when i passed. Apparently the two that were damaged at Craven Arms are being kept there.

One of the 3 diagrams last Friday on Pembroke Dock was a 158.  The other 2 pairs of 153s.   Im not sure whether a 158 is booked but if they work any routes in South Wales it seems to be this one. The 158s are pretty much tied to the Cambrian/Birmingham/Holyhead routes.  There used to be 3 that worked in the South and after 3 days would return North but now most Ebbw Vale/Maestegs are 170s they dont seem to be needed. 

I have noticed they have stopped the final Swanline Swansea-Cardiff which used to leave Swansea at 2232 IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) and was formed from the 153 doing the last HOW down service (infact I think it ran as a through service towards the end starting at Crewe at 1720). Now the previous Swanline (which is formed as the return working from the Manchester-Tenby) is the final Swanline and Swansea-Cardiff service. Not sure if the later Swanline will be reinstated at some point (along with most other Swanline services which now just get stops added to the Manchester trains every 2 hours apart from the 1700ish from Swansea) 

I will keep any eye out on RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) next week to see whats used on the HOW.  Hopefully there will be enough capacity to provide 3 carriages on all HOW journeys. 

Appreciate this is an old thread but my question relates to 158s in South Wales.

Any idea on the booked workings in South Wales currently (i.e. outside the Cambrian/Birmingham/Holyhead workings).  Sometimes I see one on Pembroke Dock-Swansea but not sure if its booked.  There still seems to be some going Manchester-Milford on weekends including the 0630 Manchester to Milford diagram and a few on Sundays on this route. 

Before covid there used to be 3 in South Wales that did everything from Maesteg to Cheltenham, Ebbw Vale, a working to Pembroke and back and then went back up North after 3 days in South Wales but that doesnt seem to be the case.  Most of the time any weekday Manchester-South Wales are substituted for 150s or 153 pairs now rather than 158s. 

Good Post Hafren. 

I did a trip to Tenby on Thursday of this week, the first time I have been on the Pembroke Dock line since before covid (although I have been to Carmarthen and Cardiff quite a few times).  I agree that the connections are very poor at times even with the Pembroke service now running from Swansea again.  Travelling from Neath I opted for the 1045 service from Neath changing at Carmarthen with around a 50 minute wait in Carmarthen.  I could have changed in Swansea but id much rather wait in Carmarthen rather than Swansea. At Carmarthen you can go for a wander over the bridge into town if you have that long to wait.  As it turned out the Milford Haven train didn't get to Neath until 1120 so I had the long wait at Neath instead! In the end they terminated it at Carmarthen, after making an an extra stop at Ferryside (not booked) so the train crew could change over (met the Manchester service at Ferryside). Road transport was being arranged for passengers going to Haverfordwest etc. On arrival into Carmarthen it was around 35 mins late. So my wait at Carmarthen was about 15 minutes just enough time to pop to the shop rather than go over the bridge into town.  The ongoing journey to Tenby was a pair of 153s and fortunately problem free arriving more or less on time.  So i wasn't delayed just had a long wait at Neath rather than Carmarthen. 

I stayed overnight in Tenby and decided to go to Pembroke Dock the following morning.  I caught the 1140ish train.  It is the first time ive travelled further than Tenby on this branch line. I didnt think much of Pembroke Dock to be honest, I did it just to do the train journey, one i can cross off my list.  I then had the 45ish minute wait at the Dock for the return working back to Tenby.  I did like the train journey, reminded me of the Heart of Wales line, very rural and the train crossing country lanes etc.  A pleasant journey. But I wouldnt rush to go back to Pembroke Dock itself.  On arrival in Tenby the guard announced there would be a set swap.  All passengers going onwards to Swansea would need to cross the bridge.  Ive never known them do that before (although ive only been to Tenby about 4 times by train) and there didnt seem any particular reason unless one of the pairs of 153s needed to end up somewhere else that night.  The train crew swapped over too.  One thing i noticed was the information screens didnt change, it still said Pembroke Dock on the screen where the train then went to Swansea. Passengers were also ready to board the wrong train and I assume manual announcements were done on the trains and passengers had to then rush to get on the correct train. 

i agree about the information screens/automated announcements on board. They need to make it clearer when there are request stops involved.  On the journey to Pembroke Dock and return they called at all request stops and the guard announced we will be calling at all stations.  The information screens/automated announcements seem to think Manobier is a request stop when it isn't I don't think?  On the down journey to Tenby on Thursday the guard made a point of checking request stops on the ticket check on leaving both Carmarthen and Whitland and it stopped at Narberth and Kilgetty but not Saundersfoot.  Id have Saundersfoot would be the most popular of the request stops but then i think its quite a distance from the seafront.  On return i travelled on the 1540ish from Tenby changing once again at Carmarthen.  I could have changed at Swansea and got back to Neath quicker but I prefer a 175 and wasn't in a rush.  I had about half an hour so did have a wander in Carmarthen this time.  To my surprise the 1655 Manchester was quiet leaving Carmarthen (and nice air con on a hot day!). It did pick up a good loading of passengers from Swansea however.  But I definitely see a difference with how busy these services are each side of Swansea.  Generally West of Swansea they are less overcrowded.  How busy they are going to be in Summer Saturdays/the peak summer holidays I've no idea. 

Regarding the HOWL ive not been on there since before covid.  But I see they are mostly booked for single 153s.  Not great for day trips as you say.  Not so bad if you are going Swansea (Neath) to Llandovery for example or somewhere else on the Southern end of the line.  But end to end you would be better doing the circle route and coming back via Hereford.  Although i understand its a lot more expensive to do that.   It will be interesting to see how busy the HOWL will be during the Royal Welsh show .  I assume they will increase it to 2 or 3 153s per journey to meet capacity.  And the Cardiff-Builth Road special was usually 4 cars (a pair of 150s).