Some of you may have noticed that I have not posted much on the forum recently. Unfortunately the reasons for this are medical.

 I was diagnosed with glaucoma in 2007 and since then it has gradually progressed. I contracted a mild dose of COVID in June last year and since then my eyesight has got very much worse indeed. I find reading screens more difficult, especially on sites like this where difference in contrast between text and background is not high

I also have greater difficulty in seeing enough of the keyboard to type, and can only do so in certain lighting conditions. Long posts, often a trademark of mine (!) now tend to be too long to be feasible

So please rest assured that I am still around and reading most of the new content as it appears, but I am more likely to be a more passive member in the future,

Robin Summerhill

I presume you mean the point when (I said damn sure when you wrote ensure. I apologise for that – sloppy writing on my part – but at the time your comment had been included in my mental file of people who say similar things, starting with my adoptive father 60 years ago! In his case he was complaining about the slight retiming of a Bristol to Bath GP stopper that made it unusable for workers at Carson’s factory at Mangotsfield. In his view the railway was making damn sure they couldn’t use it as part of their malicious plot  “ to run the line down with the intention of closing it” (even though this was after the Beeching report had been published and it was already on the list...)

But ever since then I have encountered similar conspiracy theories revolving around management malignancy for all manner of nefarious reasons. So once again I apologise for lumping your post in with all the other examples I was thinking of!

Anyway, Witham Bobby has now revealed more information about Westbury

I do not think that we should look for “malice aforethought” when we consider the situation at the time.

Everybody involved with railways at the time, including most of its’ staff, were aware that passenger numbers were falling, and had been doing so since the 1920s. No one at the time could have envisaged the complete reversal of that trend which did not begin until 10 years later”

 They had no reason to “make damn sure that it would never reopen” because nobody at the time thought it ever would. If anything they thought the reverse would have been true, and more platforms could close

In 1962 the area of land that would become Bristol Parkway was part of Stoke Gifford marshalling yard

Looking back to 60 years ago it is amazing, looking at today’s railway, how many freight facilities there were. Within a virtual stone’s throw from Temple Meads there was Bristol Goods right next to what is now platform 1 (well, on the other side of the through line that led to Bristol docks via Redcliff tunnel), St Phillips Marsh (now the site of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) depot), Pylle Hill, Kingsland Road and Avonside Wharf

Avonside was the central Bristol Midland Railway facility that was accessed from Lawrence Hill junction adjacent to Barrow Road engine shed. It was worked by a 204hp shunter (later class 03) but had previously been the job for 2 ex-L&Y pugs 51217 and 51218. 51217 was scrapped after dieselisation but 51218 was stored out of use at Barrow Road for some time, presumably because if the diesel failed they had nothing else that could get down there!

Bristol docks were accessed via Redcliffe as mentioned above, and also from the Portishead branch at Ashton

Further afield there was East Depot, West Depot, Stoke Gifford, Westerleigh and the maze of lines at Avonmouth. But the list didn’t end there; smaller numbers of sidings that might not quite be described as a yard existed at Lawrence Hill, Ashley Hill, a coal concentration depot at Filton, Fishponds, Mangotsfield, Yate, and Fry’s private sidings in Keynsham to name but a few

Unimaginable in 2022

My thoughts recently turned to 1962 when my interest in railways was kindled as a 10 year old, and where you could regularly go behind steam traction from Bristol back then.

There were a few London trains that were steam-hauled but generally only as a result of diesel failures. There was plenty of steam on the Midland main line, especially on the stoppers. The express trains were supposed to have been all-diesel from the end of the summer service, but failures of Peaks was commonplace, especially over the following winter which saw withdrawn Scots and Jubilees pressed back into service as the Peaks froze up in quantity

The Hymeks were being introduced at the time and when sufficient numbers were in service they took over the Paddington to Gloucester/ Cheltenham and the Worcester services, but in September 1962 most were still steam-hauled. So you could get from Bristol to Paddington with guaranteed steam haulage if you went via Gloucester (with a change of stations from Eastgate ton Central via the long connecting footbridge), or via Worcester Shrub Hill

It was possible to go from Bristol via four routes; the S&D^▸ (Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway) via Templecombe and Salisbury, or via Poole and Southampton, or on a Salisbury or Portsmouth train, but if you started on a train coming from Cardiff you would need to start from Stapleton Road, Bristol’s unchallenged second station in those days

Things were very different in 2022

If anyone wishes to correct this old man’s memories, or amplify or add to them, please feel free to do so

Do you think you find that, in a railway-related sense, at Templecombe?

The subject line for this thread reads “The hidden time penalty of flying” and I will address that aspect.

Pro-rail, pro-road and pro-air travel often highlight their opponents’ key weaknesses and minimising their own. But the matter is more complicated than that, because every single journey has its own particular circumstances. In short, it all depends where you want to go, when you want to go, how long you have to do it, and any ancillary cost that will be incurred on certain options.

For example, if your starting point is a stone’s throw from Euston and your destination is a stone’s throw from Glasgow Central, then rail would normally be the better option, but probably not if you want to get out and back in a day. But if your starting point in Hounslow and your destination is Paisley, this would tip the balance considerably

Notwithstanding Eurostar, crossing water usually gives air travel the upper hand in transit time. As mentioned above, Eurostar too has a check-in period, and getting to St Pancras can be an issue from many parts of the country – at least London’s major airports are close to motorways.

People wanting to go on a traditional seaside holiday to the south of France or Spain may feel they are wasting part of their holiday time off bt going overland; those on a leisurely sightseeing journey may enjoy the sights to be seen as much as the destination. Thse factors will also come in to pa
Play a part.

Finally, Graham said he was told to be at the airport 2.5 hours before the flight, but this of course was a recommendation and not an instruction. I am positive that getting the next bus an hour later would have been perfectly OK. When you know Graham  please tell us how long did it actually take you from entering the airport to being airside beyond security?

 Couple of points Graham

First, apologies for guessing your return journey incorrectly between Dublin and Rosslare! The reason I brought it up at all was simply to illustrate the time difference between rail and air travel over the route Dublin to Melksham, and how air travel beats surface transport hands down on that metric alone. And to the vast majority of passengers, that metric will be the one of most importance

Secondly, as you say, the leisure market is increasing as a proportion of overall rail travel. But by its very nature, what “leisure” actually means to different people will vary. For example, the idyllic scenery of west Wales and south east Ireland will be of little interest to someone attending an international rugby match or going shopping and sightseeing in Dublin. Getting off the already ambling train to enjoy visiting some market towns on the way will not appeal at all to those attending a family wedding, funeral or other domestic event. There is a sizable leisure market in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) for people visiting London and many will go by train, but very few who would want to go on a train that stopped at all stations!

You say that your return sailing from Rosslare may well have had 300 foot passengers, but you also said that many of them appeared to be a school party. But they are a one off; they would not be there on Monday and neither would anybody else, other than the usual dozen or so

In one way people like us are lucky; retired, comfortably off with rarely any need to get anywhere particularly quickly. By no means is everybody in the same situation. We must always remember that when making proposals for the future

There are many factors to talk about here, not all of which will necessarily be welcomed by my readership! 

It is certainly the case that facilities for Irish Sea passenger crossings and onward travel arrangements were more comprehensive and better  integrated than they are today, but there is a reason for that. And that reason is exactly the same as why we no longer have trains to Shepton Mallet or Dulverton or Brecon; they became unviable because there were not enough bums on seats

Whether we like it or not, most of those who want to make the journey overland will use road transport, whilst the rest will main;y go by air. The remark in a post above about a crossing having a dozen or so foot passengers says it all. Ever since the private car came to prominence in the 1950s and 60s the figures have been moving the same way and, in reality, things are unlikely to go back to the old ways.

Changes to travelling habits will have to be made due to climate change, but there is an elephant in that room. The simple fact is that no politician advocating forcing people to change their behaviour by restricting the use of private transport or aviation, or wishing to ban it, is going to be re-elected so it just won’t happen.

I regret the passing of the era of foot passengers as much as anybody else on this forum, but applying practical thought tells me that this is the way it now is. Carbon neutral or carbon free road and air transport are going to be the ways that politicians will move forward.

Think about it – if electric planes can ever become technically or financially viable, routes across the Irish Sea or to European destinations will be prime contenders. Graham tells us above that he left Dublin mid-afternoon (Presumably Connelly depart 1333 or 1633) and, after an overnight stay in Rosslare, finally got to Chippenham (nearly home!) by 1710 the following day. If he had left Connelly at 1333 and gone north in a taxi to the airport, he could have been at BRS^▸ (Business Rates Supplement) by close to 1710 the same day and home shortly afterwards. Most ordinary travellers would think there was no contest here.

Having said all that, there is one way that the railways might be able to claw back some traffic although it would need investment in new equipment. The motorail concept has fallen from favour except with Eurotunnel, and this could be introduced for services going to passenger ports. There are plenty of places on the network where the railway still owns enough land to build loading and unloading platforms, the precise location of which need not necessarily be adjacent to existing railway stations. On-board electric charge points could be provided, as could catering facilities. These would of course need to be sensibly priced, because if not travellers could simply drive themselves all the way. Whether such an idea could ever get off the ground is a matter for others to decide, and I won't be asking for any royalties 

SWMBO^▸ (She Who Must Be Obeyed) did that at the end of May when she was waiting for me to come in from Dublin

The parking ticket turned up a few days later - she had not spotted the red lines

For many years I have toyed with the idea of "doing" the Irish railway network but I nevere did get around to it. The only routes I have travelled on are Dublin Heuston to Portlaoise and Limerick Junction to Limerick.

And now with my ever-decreasing eyesilght there's probably little point as I can't see what is out of the wondow anyway

I was wonnderng much the same. If the bus was not technically in service until it arrived at Manvers Street that may explain it

The way you titled this thread I thought you had declared war...

Another matter that needed taking into account following dieselisation was traction knowledge. This was not an issue in steam days because a driver was expected to drive whatever he was given. As an example in the 60s nobody west of Bristol had traction knowledge of Peaks (Class 45 and 46 post-TOPS^▸ (Total Operations Processing System)), so if one was rostered on a train to Plymouth it as imperative that the same driver brought it back, otherwise somebody would need to be sent on the cushions down to collect it.

In the scenario you mention the Honeybourne issue would have been covered by Bath Road and Saltley route knowledge but would need a conductor over the LSW. There may have been Laira men who had route knowledge of the LSW, but they would need a conductor from Pen Mill to at least Castle Cary

Things were different back in the 60s and 70s, but whether they were better or worse I will leave for others to decide.

In those days of course everybody worked for BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) and not individual TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), and any depots had both passenger and freight turns. There was also the link system in place, where particular links worked particular services.

To take Bath Road as an example, perhaps unusually or perhaps not there were no lodging turns, so the routes worked were restricted to those places where it was possible to work out and back in one day. The 8-hour day was sacrosanct in those days too, but men could be rostered up to 9 hours and be paid overtime. And yes in those days it was indeed; women couldn’t be railway drivers because they were women and that was the end of the matter. Times have changed somewhat!

The routes that Bath Road men signed were to Derby including the loop to Worcester and the diversionary route via Honeybourne; London, Salisbury Eastleigh Portsmouth, Weymouth, Plymouth, Cardiff and Hereford. Not every driver would sign every road because the work of their particular link would never take them to some of those places, but there was a good deal of overlap of route knowledge between links to allow for what was generally called “the exigencies of the service”

If a driver was called upon to work a route he did not sign, a Conductor would be provided ie another driver who did know that section of line.