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27376  Journey by Journey / TransWilts line / Re: Are our stations safe? on: August 11, 2013, 11:24:29
Police Surgeries ...

17:00 - 18:00 on 10th September, Westbury Station
17:00 - 19:00 on 9th October, Trowbridge Station
27377  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Trains travelling in the wrong direction, will this happen more frequently? on: August 11, 2013, 11:06:51
I have moved a more general question about rail safety standards to a fresh thread
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12777
as it's something for us to look at / talk about away from this storm.   The posting here originally was a good choice ... the original poster was probably (like I was) hoping to move on without a further storm.  Thanks for trying  Cheesy
27378  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Safety Standards on: August 11, 2013, 11:03:52
Not sure if I should make a new topic to ask this, but it might be relevant here.

Original was posted within http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12771.0

It was relevant where it was posted, Rhydgaled ... however, that topic has sailed back into stormy waters and has been locked (again!) and I wanted to leave your question open and answerable in calmer seas.
27379  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Trains travelling in the wrong direction, will this happen more frequently? on: August 11, 2013, 11:00:22
I note that post numbers 31, 37 and 41 have been altered this morning, removing much of the vindictive that was there, have been edited without explanation.    This makes it look as if our other member's reactions were completely over the top.    I strongly object to posters on any forum who try to go back and alter history, especially if in doing so they make subsequent posts look like an over-reaction.    For this reason, I feel that the trust I showed just a few hours back has been quickly betrayed (that's something of a record in speed) and I have locked the thread again.   In contrast, the edit in post number 38 is a model example of a good post edit - making it very clear why the edit was done, and not effecting later follow ups.
27380  Journey by Journey / Portsmouth to Cardiff / Re: West Wilts Rail User Group - upcoming meetings on: August 11, 2013, 10:40:08
21st November 2013 - 19:30, Civic Centre, Warminster

West Wilts Rail User Group welcomes Ian Mundy, Manager of First Great Western's Publicity Department.
Assuming that this is a typical WWRUG» (West Wiltshire Rail Users Group - about) meeting, all will be welcome ... further details to follow in due course.

The West Wilts Rail User Group covers the stations in the five major town of West Wiltshire - Trowbridge, Melksham, Warminster, Bradford-on-Avon and Westbury, and also stations at Avoncliff and Dilton Marsh.  Meetings cycle between venues close to the stations in the major towns which are appropriately rail accessible (i.e. no meetings in Melksham at present) and they're always fascinating to attend.  You'll find the group's contact details within this thread; they have been reviewing their web presence (committee meeting was last week that considered this) and as an interim (?) measure, we're covering their events in this thread.
27381  All across the Great Western territory / Diary - what's happening when? / West Wilts Rail User Group / Railway Children Charity. 24.8.13, Warminster on: August 11, 2013, 10:30:24
The West Wilts Rail Users Group is holding a charity event on 24th August for members and friends at a member's house which has a railway in the garden in Warminster.  Details for members are in the newsletter that you'll have received in the post ... copy attached to this post.

I might not normally post a "private" event here, except that this is a very good cause and I know that we have a sprinkling of WWRUG» (West Wiltshire Rail Users Group - about) members here, and some of them might like to invite their friends.   Please note - must be pre booked by 16th - next Friday.
27382  Journey by Journey / Portsmouth to Cardiff / Re: West Wilts Rail User Group - upcoming meetings on: August 11, 2013, 10:22:03
Here's the official poster advertising the event [as an attachment]:

25th September 2013, Bridge House Trowbridge, All welcome.
27383  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Trains travelling in the wrong direction, will this happen more frequently? on: August 11, 2013, 07:59:59
I have received, from James, an explanation, a clear understanding that he was very much out of order, and a thorough apology, which I have passed on as requested to the posters most directly concerned or will be doing very shortly as I check back through the thread.  It's probably fair to say that the apology should also go to any and all British rail industry readers who feel slighted.  Ladies and gentlemen - you are a totally professional and caring bunch on safety issues in particular.

James has posted nearly a hundred messages to the forum, and this thread has been somewhat out of character - it's the first time which I might describe as "beyond the pale".  I'm going to unlock the thread as I don't expect it to "blow" again now after the overnight cooling off period; clearly, there are other actions that the moderators / admins could take if it blows again here or on another thread.

Thank you, everyone, for your forbearance while we sorted this.
27384  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Trains travelling in the wrong direction, will this happen more frequently? on: August 10, 2013, 18:04:28
Its not often that I step in an official moderation capacity these days, but in order to take the heat out of things, I am temporarily locking this topic, pending further consultation with the rest of the team.

Thanks, Lee ... I'm just back and also have a message of apology (to all the posters in this thread who have been offended) and some background.   This is a holding post ... will be back, further, later on.   At work today, very busy day, one team member down too ... so it may not be until quite a bit later
27385  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Trains travelling in the wrong direction, will this happen more frequently? on: August 10, 2013, 15:06:59
Now that is true, but what if you followed all those rules, but some doughnut comes rushing around the corner ...

Cutting to the 'quick' of this, I think you're suggesting that the extra mileage adds extra danger.  Yes - but that's minuscule because the railways are so safe.

Quote
Although travelling with the railways can also been fun and games, and you dont even have to travel by train for something to happen. ..., i twist my ankle...

If something goes awry - a missed bus, a malfunction of some sort, there's a tendency to panic and other things will go wrong.  Have I understood that right?     Yes - may be the case to some extend, but there are so many systems in place that check and countercheck each other that it's pretty darned difficult to rush things and compound errors, and that's by design.   I'm tempted to point you to another thread which describes how a train sat in rural Wiltshire for over five HOURS while a breakdown situation was dealt with.  Certainly no dangerous corner cutting to save time there, as far as I can see, but a system which was irritatingly slow for those people who were stuck on the train.

Quote
So there we have it, the railways regardless of trains, signals or points, have other issues and they obivously should be also setting a standard of safe stations as well as safe trains that dont trap people when the train is about to move. (Sorry for long analogy, just felt i like writing Smiley

I believe that - statistically - the railways are leaders in terms of trade l safety.  I'm more likely to have a serious accident in the mile I walk to the station than in the 100 miles on the train to London.   Yet, having said that, there's such a strong backup to investigate those very, very few occasions where something goes wrong and creates an identified risk, even if no accident follows.  It's that very system that has made it as safe as it is.
27386  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Trains travelling in the wrong direction, will this happen more frequently? on: August 10, 2013, 13:28:21
In the very early days of railways, sending a train off on the wrong track but signalling it correctly was a danger.   The first interlocking was installed in 1843 at Bricklayers' Arms Junction and ... even at the slow speed of progress on railways in this country, it's now in use everywhere  Grin

To quote Wikipedia (not always 100% accurate, but putting things more succinctly that I do) "An interlocking is designed so that it is impossible to display a signal to proceed unless the route to be used is proven safe."  In other words, the signaller can only set a route (right or wrong) if nothing else is set over those lines already, and if he happens to set a wrong route, that will prevent him setting any intended but now-conflicing routes for other trains.   See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocking .

Again from WikiPedia: The Train Protection & Warning System (TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System)) is a train protection system deployed across the entire UK (United Kingdom) passenger railway network. It automatically activates brakes on any train that has passed a signal at danger.   In other words, when the train went off the wrong way, it would still have been protected from other trains - brought to a halt even if the driver passed a signal at danger.

Can I try an analogy?     If I drive from home to work, I turn right out of the end of our road.  If I forget where I'm going one day and turn left instead (perhaps I'm going to the recycling place),  I'm unlikely to have an accident if I continue to follow the rules of the road.
27387  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Trains travelling in the wrong direction, will this happen more frequently? on: August 10, 2013, 12:42:00
Wow john R, i said earlier it was a concern, would have been a different story if another train came quickly around the corner, and that train with the gatwick could have had a head on collision. thank goodness nothing happened, but it raises all sorts of questions which does include safety.

I think I can answer the "safety" question.

Railway signalling systems have a system called 'interlocking' on them, which avoids two trains been routed onto the same line or in conflict with each other.   So - once a route is set, whether it's for the right route (99.99% of the time) or the wrong route (when a highly unusual error such as this is made), all routes that could conflict are automatically block and cannot be signalled.    It would then require a SPAD (Signal Passed At Danger) (Signal passed at Danger) error by a driver for there to be any risk, and there's no more risk if he's going on the right properly signalled route to the wrong but properly signalled route.

Is there is ANY concern of there having been accident possibility at Redhill, the RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) will take a look and will report, and we'll here about it.  
27388  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture - related rail and other transport issues / Re: What is a break coach? on: August 10, 2013, 10:32:19
Just to add ... in the early days of the railway, brake vehicles with guards were vital in bringing passenger trains to a stop too;  incredibly, there were no "normal" brakes at all on some locomotives ...

Quote
To stop a train, the driver could shut off steam, get his fireman to apply a handbrake on the tender and put the engine into reverse. He had no means of applying brakes to the rest of the train; indeed most of the carriages had no brakes. Two or three of the carriages were brake carriages with handbrakes, each with a guard who would apply them when (and if) he heard the driver "whistle for brakes".

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbots_Ripton_rail_accident
27389  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Trains travelling in the wrong direction, will this happen more frequently? on: August 10, 2013, 08:20:19
Please give some more facts behind the example you've read, as your description is rather hard to follow.

Yes, please do give more details, James.

As I read it, you're telling us about a Gatwick to Reading train that came into Redhill to reverse (as it has to do on that journey) and got signalled out after the reversal back to Gatwick ...

There are occasions where a Reading to Gatwick train gets capped (cut off short) at Redhill, so it comes in from the Reading / Reigate direction and the goes out in the same direction again.   Typically that happens to allow a late running train to get back into its pattern and avoid knock-on delays all day.   And it's not beyond the realms of possibility that passengers on the train may not have been informed or understood what's happening, especially if the delay's due to problems with the train which the crew are concentrating or, or if the passengers who get taken back don't understand the announcements.  Unfortunate, but hardly dangerous.
27390  All across the Great Western territory / Smoke and Mirrors / Re: Public and internal reports of ongoing incidents on: August 09, 2013, 14:42:53
I accept that's a bit deeper and slightly less relevant then grahame may have envisaged with his opening post, though  Grin

I did add discuss onto my first post ... happy to go wider.

There does seem to a view in some quarters that rather giving the public information that it may not understand, it is better to wrap it up in bland generalisations or not publish it at all.

There is, I'm afraid, a natural fear and worry about providing too much information to people as it will lead to more questions, including questioning of what and how a job is done.   And that's going to be particularly the case with railway issues, where there are a lot of people enthusiastically interested.  So it's a needs brave, confident, assured people to break the mould and provide more information.   

Quote
Not only is this rather patronising; it diminishes trust between the public and the industry.

Agreed.

Provided that "casual traveller" easy data is available at first access, the default should be thorough data availability.   But that's an important proviso.

I have stood at Swindon station and instructed a couple of young people who were clearly new to our services as to how to get on the train ("you need to open the door with the handle") and such front line stuff is and will remain vital - indeed with an improved TransWilts service we would have a preponderance of new travellers, and we should have EASY USE data available - such as http://atrebatia.info/using.html - for the things that we on the forum know about, but others may not.

This "easy use" is something of an issue when it comes to putting timetable sheets that everyone can understand together, as well as providing full connectional and fare information.


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