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1  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: ^Appalling^ rail service slammed on: February 06, 2011, 21:10:32
I dont think that the average rail user will be very impressed if a 30 year old HST (High Speed Train) is replaced by a new EMU (Electric Multiple Unit), especialy as this new train will probably be shorter and less comfortable.

You may be wide of the mark there; it is said that one of the reasons Cross Country and West Coast services are now bursting at the seams was the popularity of the new trains with the general, non-railway-enthusiast public. Frankly the way many rivet-counting bashers whine on about anything that has been built since the BR (British Rail(ways)) mark I you'd think they'd rather have us still with a steam-hauled railway bumbling along at 60mph.

I would be more inclined to put the increase in use, due to the increased speed and frequency on the West Coast, largely between Manchester / Glasgow / Birmingham and London than anything else. Certainly the effect of 3 trains an hour between Euston and Manchester has had a massive effect on domestic flights between London and the North West, than passengers preferring the new stock itself.

I would imagine that the average non railway enthusiast passenger doesn't really care less either way what they are being hauled by, and in fact some passengers considered the refurbished Great Western HST's to be 'new trains'. From talking to people I know, who travel on trains but have zero interest in them, they aren't impressed with voyagers as a replacement for '125s' - (which is any slam door BR intercity train in their book) - general complaints being lack of tables, hard straighter backed seats and frequent overcrowding.
2  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: ^Appalling^ rail service slammed on: February 06, 2011, 09:57:02
Again we are back to the problem of fragmented private monopolies with government interference. First Group for the record actually own some of their own HSTs (High Speed Train) outright. However part of the reason you see these trains on wholly unsuitable routes stopping at every lamp post, is again due to the lack of suitable stock.

As for train lengths getting shorter, this started in BR (British Rail(ways)) with sprinters being brought in to replace locomotive hauled stock, but at a greater frequency. The worst example of it though being the introduction of Voyagers, which may in themselves may be suitable to supplement a core intercity network, but to outright replace HSTs and six / seven car loco hauled trains, has been a disaster.

And yes there are far too many focus groups and meetings and whatnot, where nothing much happens... But it's all a question of money, and thus becomes political...

3  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: ^Appalling^ rail service slammed on: February 05, 2011, 11:37:30
The complaint about overcrowding is of course valid, after all commuters pay a hell of a lot of money to often stand for ages forced against each other. It's easy to say 'well it's only ten minutes', but after a full days work, people are often knackered, tired, fed up and so forth, and the last thing they need is that. Not everyone works in an office sat on their arse all day. So I completely sympathise with the commuter, who just often sees everything as inefficient.

However it is not as simple as it all seems.

With regards the loco and coaches kit, it was hired out from a freight company, EWS (English Welsh & Scottish Railway Ltd, now known as DB Schenker Rail (UK (United Kingdom))), along with the drivers for it. The guards were Great Western staff, who had to all be trained up on it. Because the guards in question generally work the 1980's power door unit type stock, they would have had to have full training, as it is a completely different way of working, a computer example might be training windows users on linux.

As for getting 'new crew', the training period for guards to become competent is between three and six months, not including the recruitment process, which includes psychometric assessments and stringent medicals. There is no easy way to speed this up, although granted it can take ages from applying for a job, to actually starting it, but the mechanics of recruiting guards or indeed drivers can hardly be cut down, after all do you want to take someone with a criminal record for money offences, or who keeps putting passengers lives at risk due to not having the required concentration, or who has a condition that can cause them to collapse whilst doing safety critical duties? And what possible economic sense would there be to recruit new staff to work on 1970's designed coaches, with a 1990's designed engine for one or two lines?

New stock, the question being who is going to fund it? And even if such stock comes about, it will take a good while to build, then test before the training of staff can begin. If we take the example of the class 172, which is probably the most suitable design of unit for the services in question, then orders were placed for the stock in late 2007 / early 2008. The first units were delivered in July 2010, and the majority will be expected to be complete later this year. Over the pond in Ireland, the Irish railway decided to order units from Korea / Japan. The order was placed in 2005 and it was until 2007 before the first units were in service. Buying from China or whoever is unlikely to be much quicker.

Is the railway too slow and complex with regards leasing agreements and suchlike? Almost certainly yes. You won't find many people, be it commuters, the general taxpayers, railway staff, or railway managers in favour of the current set up. But then the public have systematically voted for governments who are happy to keep the system as it is. With this current administration being very much about cutbacks, the chances of railways benefiting under them are extremely slim.

I personally believe the only two solutions are either very long franchises (i.e. like Chiltern) or full nationalisation. Either way both are highly political, and would meet with opposition from either the multinationals or the unions, either option certainly would take ages to bed in, a load of lawyers would get very rich on public money, not to mention other massive costs, even if it was ultimately successful, but regardless of this, this is far beyond the remit of this thread, and becomes another topic altogether.

Are commuters getting a poor deal? Absolutely. But blame successive governments who have perpetuated this fragmented nonsense. After all the Train Operating Companies, don't exist to run trains, they exist to make a profit by running trains. Whether or not you think that is a good or bad thing is entirely up to you, but it's worth bearing in mind at all times, and of course Wrexham and Shropshire, who certainly had a superb customer focused ethos, couldn't translate that into enough cash...
4  Journey by Journey / Cross Country services / Re: Cross Country industrial action - August 2009 (merged topics) on: July 31, 2009, 19:55:36
So the stewards who serve food, who are supposed to adhere to strict hygene regulations, are now to clean the train as well? Does that not just sound a little bit iffy...
5  Journey by Journey / Cross Country services / Re: Cross Country industrial action - August 2009 (merged topics) on: July 31, 2009, 19:34:29
because they don't have a lot to negotiate with, or the knowledge or ability to do so - when you are on minimum wage or pretty damn close to it, you are even more replaceable.  They depend on the union to negotiate on their behalf. 

So because someone is not as valuable to the company they should be protected by others?

So they are thick and non-skilled (lack knowledge or ability) - great - you've just basically said RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) members are stupid - maybe I should not trust the driver or the TM(resolve) when I get on the train on thursday.

Right, because there is obviously a distinct correlation between people who aren't necassarily the most vocal or skilled at presentation, argument or debating, and intelligence. Those geeky technical types who don't like socialising and have stunted conversations are obviously just really really stupid people, who yet somehow manage to grasp complex abstract concepts, despite being "dense"?

Fine, let's abolish solicitors full stop, and force people to represent themselves when going through divorce, lawsuits or criminal cases. If people then get screwed over, well who cares, they're only simpletons who deserve it after all.
6  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Quiet Carriage / Coach: restrictions and issues - ongoing discussion, merged topic on: June 28, 2009, 19:16:40
prehaps you can enlighten us on the needlless announcments???

0624 from WOS» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) - announcing where to get off at any station up to OXF» (Oxford - next trains) - NO ONE GETS OFF - and if they do they are regulars!

60% of the time - the TM(resolve) doesnt do any verbal anmouncements - then you get the jobsworths who do - its like day and night

With the stops on the cotswolds line - by the time they have finished (if they do the whole script including the braille safety leaflets) they have a pause for breath before they are announcing which stop we're approaching and where to get off

The problem is, is that the announcements are mandatory, not discretionary, basically to comply with government regulations and corporate safety standards. If the staff do not make these announcements, and are reported not doing so, it is highly likely they will face disciplinary proceedings. The 'jobsworths' as you put them, probably don't want formal action taken against them, especially in the current climate with redundancies, where even minor blemishes on someone's record can be detrimental,  which I think is understandable.

However from the viewpoint of the travelling public, I can see that such announcements only serve to annoy them, and personally actually agree with you that half the stuff is largely spurious. I don't like to hear half the nonsense when I travel either. The solution, I don't know, but presumably it would involve passenger action groups raising the issue with the companies and perhaps MPs (Member of Parliament).

7  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Loco hauled on: January 29, 2009, 13:01:49
You'd need Mark III coaches, as the Mark II's are only certified for 100mph running
8  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture - related rail and other transport issues / Northern Rail strike ballot on: January 29, 2009, 11:49:50
http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=117353
Quote
MORE THAN 2,200 members of Britain^s biggest rail union at Northern Rail are to be balloted for strike action over a ^comprehensive breakdown^ in industrial relations.

RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) has called the vote following continued attacks on payments to staff assaulted on duty, victimisation of union reps, breaches of disciplinary procedures, imposition of new conditions, broken promises on train crewing and breaches of promotion and transfer agreements.

^Industrial relations at Northern have plummeted to a new low, and our members are telling us that the company^s aggression must be challenged,^ RMT general secretary Bob Crow said today.

^It is only a year since Northern told us it was withdrawing its heartless attempt to dock the pay of staff who had to take time off work after being assaulted, but it has become clear that local managers have been given the nod to continue doing it.

^In the last three months the company has fired two union reps for alleged breaches of conditions that have been imposed without agreement, and cynically manipulated its own disciplinary procedures in the process.

^We have also seen the company fail to produce written assurances we were promised that guards would be in place during trials of new tram-trains on the Penistone-Huddersfield line, and now there are also moves to undermine promotion prospects for our members.

^Penalising assault victims victimising union reps, imposing new policies and ignoring established procedures add up to massive attack on Northern^s own staff, and we will be urging our members to return a decisive mandate for action,^ Bob Crow said.

9  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: I E P why do we need it? on: January 27, 2009, 22:31:49
Ideally Mark 5 coaches (preferably 9 or even 10 of them) + either Electric locomotive and DVT(resolve) or electric power cars. The pendolinos seem far more rattley and unpleasant than the electric hauled mark III coaches. Diesel power cars will do for where it is unsuitable for the wiring to go up.

And while we're at it, 350 / 360 type things for inner / outer suburban thames stuff, and a nice load of 4 car 172's for wessex regional work.
10  Journey by Journey / Cross Country services / Re: XC rant thread on: January 27, 2009, 22:27:30
Good stuff:

Bringing back HSTs (High Speed Train) - very comfortable standard class seats with a good layout of tables / airline seats, very good refurbishment in my view (other than the removal of the buffet car).

Decent staff.

Bad stuff:

Stupid fare hikes - such as peak time fares in the evening between Cheltenham and Gloucester - why !!

Voyagers (admittadley a Virgin introduction, but utter crap, refurbished or unrefurbished). If they had ordered 180's instead, at least the train would be half comfortable and have more seating, even if they are underfloored engine DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s.

11  Sideshoots - associated subjects / Campaigns for new and improved services / Re: Spare unit on: January 26, 2009, 11:30:36
And they ran express, rather than effectively an extension of the Birmingham - Coventry Centro local stopper.


Virgin Trains run expresses!

(now every 20 mins).

LM (London Midland - recent franchise) have added more places to the direct London route - an improvement.

Fares are also low.

Silverlink had low fares. Anyway is there any real point in giving suburban birmingham / coventry stations a direct service to London? It just slows the service down. Most people up that way would be more interested in a two hourly all stations local stopper between Coventry and Wolverhampton on the hour and half hour, rather than these random stop skip patterns.
12  Journey by Journey / Cross Country services / Re: refurb voyager on: January 26, 2009, 11:21:23
Also a 5 car 180 has 268 seats + 16 tip up seats in vestibules.

Data taken from http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New%20TRC%20Main%20Pages/Recognition%20main%20page.html
13  Journey by Journey / Cross Country services / Re: refurb voyager on: January 26, 2009, 11:16:43
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gtc6j/Inside_Out_West_Midlands_14_01_2009/

This is worth viewing, as it shows the extent of the overcrowding on voyagers. No doubt they've deliberately picked the worst trains, but even so it shows just how unsuitable voyagers are. HST (High Speed Train)'s used to get very busy on the routes, and that was when they had 7 carriages (averaging 400 seats - unrefurbished), rather than 4 (averaging 188 seats) or 5 (224 seats). Even the 6 car Mark II coaching stock had around 270 seats.




14  Sideshoots - associated subjects / Campaigns for new and improved services / Re: Spare unit on: January 21, 2009, 23:17:58
Silverlink had direct services to London. And they ran express, rather than effectively an extension of the Birmingham - Coventry Centro local stopper.
15  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Driver-only operation on: January 18, 2009, 12:00:24
No one has told me what the benefit to the traveling public DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) is?

Reduced costs which helps marginal services keep running.

Less chance of cancellation due to no show of guard.

On board staff can give passengers 100% of their attention instead of having to close the doors every few minutes which can be easily and safely carried out by the driver.

If DOO was to come in, then it would be the marginal services first for the chop! Who's going to spend money on CSR (Cab Secure Radio) / mirrors / full track circuiting and all the other equipment to run a limited service 1 car train? Cheaper to employ a guard on that, unless you dilute the requirements for DOO, which definitely would impede safety. Or alternatively run a bus...

What onboard staff? Very few DOO trains always have onboard staff. Usually you get the odd ticket collector or RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) on for part of the journey on maybe between 1 in 5 and 1 in 10 journeys if that?

The cancellation argument is poor anyway, and is generally due to either poor rostering, man management, decreases in the number of relief crews or serious delays. And drivers can be just as affected by this. By that logic we may as well make everything automated, so drivers aren't needed, in case they are a no show and the service is cancelled!

I'm talking about marginal weekend and late night/early morning services. I don't think anybody is seriously suggesting DOO on the Far North Line yet but it definately makes sense on most track circuited FGW (First Great Western) routes. Mirrows shouldn't be that expensive (but I bet they are because they are to do with the railway!)

Just because I'm a fan of DOO doesn't mean I don't think most medium/long distance trains shouldn't have a member of staff on board. By making trains DOO the customer experience can be improved!

There is always the risk of a humans not showing. By reducing the requirement of people to run a service in half it will definately reduce the instances of cancellation due to no shows.

As for marginal late night services or whatnot, DOO trains run more or less 24 hours between London and Reading. DOO trains could easily also do this to Oxford or Bedwyn, but don't, presumably as the company rightly or wrongly believes there is no business case for it.
Indeed one of the companies than run more or less 24 hours a day is Transpennine Express, which does have guards.

But on these long haul intercity trips, the guards aren't opening / closing doors every few minutes are they. And besides once the companies realise they only need one person on board, they can start getting rid of other onboard staff, and have just the driver and no one else on board.

Take the Kings Lynn line as an example. This used to be intercity loco and coaches. It is now basically an outer surburban service, where maybe a few RPO's jump on now and then. DOO has hardly improved that!

Cross Country services have cut back on catering considerably, so now there is generally no catering beyond 8pm. Now imagine they didn't have to have guards either. Are they really going to bother having a roving ticket collector on these trains? It would not be unrealistic to suggest that you could find yourself travelling on Birmingham to Bournemouth, or Bristol to Leeds, with no other staff, other than a driver onboard...

Your assumption is that companies will still keep staff on doing the commercial side of the guard's duties on all the trains that are DOO. History has shown otherwise. In general what happens when DOO occurs, is that a large number of staff either retire or move to other depots. Those that remain either get a shot at applying for drivers jobs, or become RPO's. They aren't just going to turn every guard into a travelling ticket collector on every train.

Even if the companies did actually do this, the savings would not be that great, as you'd still be paying someone between at least 18 to 20 grand a year to be on every train (assuming their role would include overseeing catering, fares, and basic safety). Of course it could be outsourced and done on the cheap, but then that would hardly improve things for the travelling passenger.
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