Some thoughts on near and far future possibilities

[whole diary]

[grahame]

I have split this thread off from the original, as it's gathered something of a wide-ranging life of its own, looking at a mixture of short and long term possibilities.  Some, but only some, may be practical during the lifetime and within the upcoming franchise - others will have to wait (perhaps for ever, or until their dreams fade). 

Running a rail service is expensive, and needs a thorough case and significant finance to provide even a single extra short train on a line that's already up to snuff and carrying passenger services.  Building a station is very very expensive, and has become dramatically more so over the years.  And (re)opening a line to passengers after the tracks have been allowed to decay into unusability, let alone restabalising the works, reinstating bridges, building new ones where new / widened roads cross, and buying back land that has been redeveloped and reredeveloping it is very, very very expensive.

This post was edited extensively when I split the thread and after the following posts were written.   I have taken the unusual step of adding this "precomment" to help clarify the background / split / discussions for new readers.

[anthony215]

I spent most of yesterday when not opening presents etc reading through that 99 page document.

A lot in it which did interest me:

some points I did pick up:

IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) -

Possibility of a cheaper alternative, 1 such being the proposed pendolino design from Alstom with permanent couplers allowing for quick easy coupling to a diesel locomotive to haul away from the wires.
(There is an article about this and the Chester electrification on page 14 of the latest issue of modern railways.)

Thames Valley branchlines:
Again I am  sure others on this forum may agree that these should be electrfied rather than having stay in the hand of class 165 diesel units which could be used elsewhere especially if there can still be some through services to London Paddington during the peaks.

However I am not sure what EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s would be available especially since a class 319 would not be able to use the Marlow platform at Bourne End although perhaps a small extension maybe possible to allow for a 3 carriage EMU to fit.

I think the same could be said for the Reading - Bassingstoke line which should also be electrfied so that some Bassingstoke - Reading services can be extended to Paddington during the peaks if there paths available.

Swindon - Salisbury service:

I do think this route urgently needs more trains.
We know looking at other re-opening that people will use the train if the option is there I think we can look at the summer sunday trial service last summer which did seem to be a sucess although I dont have access to passenger numbers althoughs other members should be able to answer this.

I deally we should have a train service which offers an arrival into Swindon or Salisbury before 9am say 08:35 at Swindon and 08:55 at Salisbury  with return peak time workings from Salisbury/Swindon around 17:10-17:40.

Off peak the service should be everry 2 hours although I suppose  a service every 3 hours using 1 unit would be ok until more rolling stock becomes available. Ideally I would like to see a new station should be built at Wootton Bassett which should encourage more  passenger growth on the service.

[anthony215]

Bristol local services:

Since I do regulary use the local rail services around Bristol to Weston Super Mare, Cardiff, Gloucester  I do have some views on these.

Henbury - Ideally I think once  Network rail have  4 tracked Filton Bank and GW^▸ (Great Western) have enough rolling stock  that a service should be run along the loop with new stations at Henbury & Filton North, Trains could run to Bristol Parkway or  via a circuit to/from Bristol TM^‡(resolve).

 The new stations could be funded perhaps by developers especially if the go ahead is given to build houses on the airfield at Filton.

This should also offer a service along the  Severn Beach branch between Bristol & Avonmouth every 30 minutes and if the talk of the wires going to Avonmouth & Portbury is to be believed perhaps the line through Clifton Down should also be wired and emu's used which could provde further extra capacity on the line which could benefit from the sparks effect.

The Severn beach line should also get a much better sunday than is being offered currently with trains running much later on sunday evening as has been commented on by 1 or 2 members of this forum already.


The local service from Bristol to Gloucester should be every 30 minutes ideally providing there is enough rolling stock available which hopefully there will be come 2015/2016.

You could have the Great Malvern - Bristol - Westbury - Yeovil/Weymouth service as is now and an hourly Gloucester - Bristol - Portishead service if the branch is re-built.

Ideally I would like to see an hourly service beyond Gloucester to Worcester/Great Malvern and perhaps a regular clockface timetable offered on services to/from Weymouth instead of the gaps of 2 or 3 hours and give some services much longer turn around at Weymouth instead of 7-10 minutes like some get now.

I would like to see the through services to/from Brighton withdrawn as Southern already operate 3 or 4 carriage trains over the route and the class 150/158's used on the services could be better used elsewhere.

I do think the Bristol - Weston Super Mare service should be extended beyond Weston to Taunton and provide a full 30 minutely stopping service along the route in addition to the Cardiff - Taunton/Exeter service.

Speaking of the Cardiff - Taunton service if there are EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s available I would perhaps like to see a hourly Cardiff - Bristol stopping service using a EMU with 1 of the services from the Severn Beach line being extended to Weston Super Mare/Taunton.


Golden Valley


Hopefully following electrifcation we will see a full hourly service to/from London Paddington with the 2 units used to provide the Cheltenham - Swindon shuttle being used to provide extra capacity elsewhere such as on the Swindon - Salisbury route.



As for the High speed service once the extra Bristol TM - London services start I think the Swansea/Cardiff - London services should be sped up perhaps by running non stop between Bristol Parkway & Reading

[anthony215]

Something else I thought of is perhaps the lack of late evening and early morning services between Cardiff and Bristol TM^‡(resolve).

Monday to Fridays I think there should be a local service from Cardiff to Bristol TM departing Cardiff at 05:15 arriving into Bristol @ 06:05-06:10 with late evening journeys from Cardiff to Bristol at 23:59 and from Bristol to Cardiff around 23:54

[FlyingDutchman]

Devon Rail Services

I would to see the Devon Metro and news stations at Collumpton, Newcourt, Monkerton, Marsh Barton, Exminister and further Station improvements.

Improvement to the exiting rolling as used on the Avocet^▸ (Branch line from Exeter to Exmouth) Branch line

The opening of the Okehampton Branch to regular passenger trains

A new passenger service Linking Exeter to Axminster providing a better train services for Pinhoe and Whimple with the new station and Cranbrook with a possible Shuttle Bus from Cranbrook to Exeter Airport. Possibly start at Exeter Central


Increase the line Speed and signalling from Exeter to Reading

A bit further away

New Station at Wellington Somerset.

Reinstating a second platform and loop at Newquay.

Reinstating a second platform at Branstable and Exmouth

Longer term

Possible Newquay to Falmouth rail Services using reinstated rail corridor from Parkandillick to St Dennis Junction

Extending the Tarka^▸ (Line from Barnstaple to Exeter) Line from Barnstable to Bideford or maybe Torrington.

Reinstate Okehampton to Tavistock line

Exmouth to Simouth Junction

[anthony215]

I think Okehampton - Tavistock is a must and I think would be very well used if there was a Exeter - Okehampton - Tavistock - Plymouth service perhaps starting from Exmouth or something

[grahame]

There are some excellent future thoughts in this thread ... and some that I don't see working at all, but it's good to dream, and "who knows" in the medium and long term future.

I received a phone call from an independent expert, looking at details of the TransWilts line and possible service enhancements thereon, and one comment stuck in my mind.  "You'll never get more that [10 services each way per day]" he declared - just shortly after he was appointed and before he had gathered (let alone read) all the evidential data that he was gathering. And I went straight back to him - "I don't see how you can say never, but I would agree with you in the short and perhaps medium term. In the long term, who knows!".  And on that we agreed.  But it's a stark, and very recent, reminder of just how shortterm sighted some elements of the rail industry can be - taking a very conservative (at times almost too conservative) view  of any changes which have the slightest chance of producing trains that have empty seats in abundance.

In the short term, TransWilts improvements may be on the cards.   With the MVA report, the Network Rail Operational Study, the two Wessex Chamber of Commerce surveys of potential users and economic benefit beyond existing users, and the proof that extra trains (if decently timed, priced, advertised, etc) generate substantial extra traffic, the case is now a compelling one and overall most of the ducks are now lined up. Portishead is there in the consultation, and Tavistock is clearly on the cards too.  Crossrail, the effects of electrification, and the need to provide services for passenger loadings that have grown at 10% per annum rather that the 1% that was taken as a basis for the last franchise, are also very much in the frame.   There may be others - this is not intended to be anything like a complete list.

But I don't think we should clutter our response(s) to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) by asking for / suggesting that very long term projects  be included within the next franchise - let's face it - only in our dreams can we see the winning company being asked to run trains from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock from 2019, and to ask for such (I'm aware I'm going beyond what anyone has suggested here) would weaken our strong cases.   Never the less, rail is very much a long term thing and it would be wise - very wise - for those with the knowledge to listen to what the younger generations are saying about how they want to travel in the future, and to leave the route open for those desires to have been implemented, in modified form to suit further changing times, for when that younger generation has retired and has plenty of leisure time to enjoy.

Finishing on an optimistic note.  "Never" changes can happen.   I used to stay, quite often, near a station that had just 4 trains a day calling there in 1971/2.  It now has 4 trains an hour calling.  It's not in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) territory, but it is in England.  I never used the service at 4 a day.  But I used it, usefully, and so did many others when it became 4 an hour.

[anthony215]

I certainly agree with your view's Grahame about the Swindon - Westbury/Salisbury service, I think some similar views were said when the Ebbw Vale line was due to be re-opened and look what has happened there.

The Ebbw Vale line is picking up however I think the reason why passenger numbers are not increasing  as much as hoped is lack of affordable parking at the harbour station hopefully once the other station at Goodwick is re-opened which will have a large free car park and  regular bus links to St Davids etc thne we should get a lot  more passengers.

I think the Henbury loop is another line in Bristol which is likely to be a very good sucess once it gets a regular passenger trains service the same could be said about Portishead although Henbury should be easier to re-open as the  track etc is all in place all it needs is a station @ Henbury.

As for the cost, if the platforms are intact why not see what work needs to be done to get them up to standard the platforms at Fishguard and Goodwick with overgrown etc but have been cleaned up and the station is being re-opened for only a few ^1000,000 rather than a few ^million

[bigdaz]

I caviate I am a Hampshire-based train enthusiast and NOT a regular commuter or end-user, so my view may be unmangeable

Being in the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) area, I note many of their Salisbury based services maximise the use of paths and rolling stock by having trains coming from various locations, coupling up and then using a single path into the capital e.g. An up Exeter and an Up Bristol combining at Salisbury to form a double-length up Waterloo.

Equally at on Sundays, Portsmouth (via Easteligh) and Poole service meet and divide at Eastleigh as do Alton and Basingstoke trains at Woking.

Could this model be used more efficiently in Great Western Land e.g. an up Pompey and an up Weymouth combining at Westbury to make a single up Bristol / Cardiff calling Trowbridge, Bath only to BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI))?? Then use single carriage 153 as an all stations stopper which follows this??

Just a suggestion... I'm sure someone out there will point out whether this is manageable or not...

[eightf48544]

Some excellent suggestions.

One specific suggestion Sunday service for Taplow.

And my favoruite which no-one has mentioned Bourne End High Wycombe (to be heavy rail to linked to East West via Aylesbury and Bicester,

To add some general points.

Electrification of as much as the network as possible doable on a rolling programme.

Reinstatement of North curve at Bradford on Avon with wires to allow semi fast Bristol Padd to serve Bradford and Melksham.

Also Thames Valley branches, Basingstoke - Reading, Oxford Birmingham, Welsh Valleys.

All reinstated passenger service lines to be wired or at least ready for the wires.

Thus Bourne End Wycombe electrification extended from Bourne End.

Portishead, East - West should start electric, other lines like Henbury, Okehampton Tavistock to be made ready for wires when reopened.

If new 4 car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) were to have two motor coaches at either end then a 2 car unit, for Marlow and other branches plus strenghtening, would be feasable to the same design. It would just need a few Driving trailers which would be standard Driving Motor coaches without the motors. Unless you do what they did with the 309s and have a two car as a rocket booster (same power as a 4)to add to two 4s and enable 60 mph plus start stop averages over around 10 miles..
 

[anthony215]

I agree with a  rolling electrification program .

I would wire Bath/Chippenham - Westbury - Salisbury - Southampton/Eastleigh as it provides alternative routes for freight from Southampton which could be hauled by electric locomotives.

 Also it allows the Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour, Salisbury - Swindon, Salisbury - Southampton - Eastleigh - Romsey & Salisbury - Portsmouth Harbour services to be worked by EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s 

This would release a lot of class 158's which could be used by ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) or by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in the south west and the Great Malvern - Weymouth as well as some by SWT^▸ (South West Trains) to extend their services beyond Exeter  perhaps to Barnstaple. or if there is capacity a direct service say from Southampton to Plymouth even if it is only a few trains per day

[FlyingDutchman]

With travelling on the line from Digby to Exeter or to Topsham newer rolling stock would be nice.

A 30 minute time table 7 days a week

I know my frineds who live at Pinhoe and St Thomas  would rather a better trains service.

Guy

[Chafford1]

  My comments in red below

Devon Rail Services

I would to see the Devon Metro and news stations at Collumpton, Newcourt, Monkerton, Marsh Barton, Exminister and further Station improvements.

Improvement to the exiting rolling as used on the Avocet^▸ (Branch line from Exeter to Exmouth) Branch line

Government spending squeeze may prevent this

The opening of the Okehampton Branch to regular passenger trains

Should be possible but will people use the service?

A new passenger service Linking Exeter to Axminster providing a better train services for Pinhoe and Whimple with the new station and Cranbrook with a possible Shuttle Bus from Cranbrook to Exeter Airport. Possibly start at Exeter Central

This will need double tracking to Honiton to allow the longer distance Waterloo services to miss the stops between Honiton and Exeter - the current situation which requires trains to stop at Pinhoe at the start or end of a 172 mile journey is ridiculous. The original 1964 plan for the Waterloo-Exeter semi-fast services was for six stops between Exeter Central and Salisbury (with a few trains also stopping at Whimple and Tisbury). Currently, the Waterloo services stop at either 9 or 10 stations between Exeter and Salisbury (with a further stop coming at Cranbrooke) 


Increase the line Speed and signalling from Exeter to Reading

Would benefit travel times from Plymouth and Exeter to London, but how much potential does this line have for higher speeds?

A bit further away

New Station at Wellington Somerset.

Reinstating a second platform and loop at Newquay.

Reinstating a second platform at Branstable and Exmouth

Easier at Barnstaple than at Exmouth

Longer term

Possible Newquay to Falmouth rail Services using reinstated rail corridor from Parkandillick to St Dennis Junction

Extending the Tarka^▸ (Line from Barnstaple to Exeter) Line from Barnstable to Bideford or maybe Torrington.

I've seen a ^200m figure quoted for an extension to Bideford - highly unlikely given the limited amount of traffic this would generate

Reinstate Okehampton to Tavistock line

Likely to be very expensive, also line blocked by new developments at Tavistock, realignment of track from Tavistock to Plymouth needed for competitive journey times

Exmouth to Sidmouth Junction

Good idea but housing developments cover the track at Budleigh Salterton

[matt473]

Long term plan should be for a metro style network similair to valley Lines created for the Bristol area with Gloucester, Weston-Super-Mare and Bath as the outer part of the network with a dedicated EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) fleet to go with electrification. This would increase capcity for local stations and facilitate re-openings and new stations (Ashley Down, Long Ashton etc.) whilst stations such as Lawrence Hill no longer being served by longer distance services speeding these up or allowing more seats for longer distance travellers instead of few stop commuters.

[anthony215]

I certainly agree with the Bristol Metro concept with local stopping services to Taunton/Weston Super Mare, Gloucester Portishead etc.

If the talk of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) getting brand new EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s instead of class 319's does come about then an add on should be made  for the local routes around Bristol if the lines are wired.

Somehow I get an image in my mind of a class 323 EMU at Clifton Down  (I wonder if i could photoshop such an image)