Future sleeper service safe in new franchise - minister

[whole diary]

[Tim]

It has been reported that the Scottish sleeper is being re-vamped with new stock which will be to "Modern standards of comfort".  It would seem a sensible time for the Cornish sleeper to piggy back on this and upgrade too.

Any report that this is being considered?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/saved_new_dawn_for_the_sleeper_1_2019737

[grahame]

Question 15 in the current consultation for the next franchise:

15. What should be the future of the overnight service between Paddington and Penzance, given that the sleeping cars and, especially, the locomotives, are ageing?

[anthony215]

It has been suggested on other forums, that if new sleeper carriages are ordered for the scottish sleeper then some additional carriages should be ordered for the GW^▸ (Great Western) sleeper it would be cheaper to do it now rather than wait for a good few years.

As for the locomotives, if the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) see sense and scrap  the Bi-mode IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) and instead go for the  cheaper alstom proposal of a Pendolino style high speed train which can be  easily & quickly coupled to a alstom diesel locomotive  to be hauled away from the wires then perhaps 1 or 2 additional such loco's are ordered for the sleeper train.

[ellendune]

Could a 67 do the job? There seem to be a few already in passenger service.

[paul7575]

As for the locomotives, if the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) see sense and scrap  the Bi-mode IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) and instead go for the cheaper alstom proposal of a Pendolino style high speed train which can be  easily & quickly coupled to a alstom diesel locomotive  to be hauled away from the wires then perhaps 1 or 2 additional such loco's are ordered for the sleeper train.

My stuck record alert is sounding. 

Please give this a break will you, we all heard it the first few times - and also bear in mind that the so called cheaper Alstom Pendolino proposal is comprehensively denied by all concerned in a current rail publication...

Paul

[anthony215]

My stuck record alert is sounding. 

Please give this a break will you, we all heard it the first few times - and also bear in mind that the so called cheaper Alstom Pendolino proposal is comprehensively denied by all concerned in a current rail publication...

Paul

I do apoligise

I haven't had a chance to read the latest rail publications yet , however I will do so when I get a chance to puchase a copy from my local newsagents.



Edit note: Quote marks fixed. CfN.

[John R]

I've thought for a while that a sensible option for a future sleeper service would be something similar to airline flat beds. That would mean more capacity per coach and the need to have en-suite facilities would go away. After all, if flat beds are deemed acceptable for business folk paying ^3k+ for a seat, then they should be OK for trips to Scotland and Cornwall.

The lowland sleepers could even be EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) stock suitably converted to reduce the need for loco-haulage, though admittedly that would not be practical for the highland and cornish services.

It should make the service much more economic.

[The SprinterMeister]

Could a 67 do the job? There seem to be a few already in passenger service.

Only if Paddington, Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) drivers are trained up to drive them..

Last I heard about sleeper train enhancements was that there would be a surplus of power cars once the Intercity Express Dromedary got going. So what you could do is alter the sleeping cars to HST^▸ (High Speed Train) trailer electrical and mechanical spec, match them up with an upgraded TGS, FO and TRFB^▸ (Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (Mark 3 coach type)), send the 57/6's and current seated coaches back off lease, lob a power car on each end and call this the sleeping car train.

[Rhydgaled]

So what does this 'current rail publication' say about IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) and possible alternatives?

If it seems sensible to go for eccomonies of scale by adding an order for stock for the Cornish sleeper to the order for the Caledonian, wouldn't it also make sense to further add to these ecconomies of scale by ordering more day coaches of the same design platform? These extra day coaches could replace the IEP proposals. If used such, they would need either:

• an electric or diesel loco at one end (prefrably swapping between the two at extremeties of wiring, but there aren't many places with sufficent dwell time to do that) and DVT^‡(resolve) at the other or
• similar vehicles with the addition of traction motors to make an EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) a bit like a 5-WES/class 442 which I believe has at least one unpowered coach that is basicaly a mark 3 coach with power doors, one such vehicle could have a pantograph. Alternativly there could be a loco anyway which supplies the traction motors, under (say) every third coach, with power (that would mean you could use a diesel loco to avoid the complaints about underfloor engines and still have distributed traction, although I'm not entirly convinced that's actually more efficent anyway)

[grahame]

i'm struck by this from the original article:

SCOTLAND^S cross-Border sleeper train network has been saved, after SNP ministers promised to match a ^50 million offer from the Westminster government for the under-threat service.

So that's an inflow / investment / subsidy of 100,000,000 pounds as I read it.  I agree that there's a logic in having all UK^▸ (United Kingdom) sleeper services using the same / similar stock on a potentially bulk order, or at least considering that, but it does seem like an awful lot of money.  Of course the other way would be to take the draft South West solution mentioned in this thread, and use economy of scale to extend to Scotland 

[anthony215]

I wouldn't mind there being a sleeper service from say Penzance to Aberdeen/Inverness especially if it stopped at at Bristol & Birmingham.

I have thought about visiting scotland but the only options available are to travel all day on a crosscountry voyager, atw to manchester then transpenine to Glasgow/Edingburgh. However another option is to fly from Cardiff airport (Not something i would fancy doing mind you)

[Timmer]

I have thought about visiting scotland but the only options available are to travel all day on a crosscountry voyager, atw to manchester then transpenine to Glasgow/Edingburgh. However another option is to fly from Cardiff airport (Not something i would fancy doing mind you)

Or go via London.

[Devon Big Bird]

I wouldn't mind there being a sleeper service from say Penzance to Aberdeen/Inverness especially if it stopped at at Bristol & Birmingham.

I have thought about visiting scotland but the only options available are to travel all day on a crosscountry voyager, atw to manchester then transpenine to Glasgow/Edingburgh. However another option is to fly from Cardiff airport (Not something i would fancy doing mind you)

Of course this used to exist - 1S19 and 1V33 ran from various locations in the SW, even ran as the 1838 PGN - GLC^▸ (Glasgow Central) overnight at one point (though the sleepers were attached @ BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)). Can't remember when it was shelved but can't imagine anyone could run this without significant amounts of subsidy. Then there is the already quoted problem with traction knowledge...

[grahame]

I've got a timetable of 1967 vintage showing a Penzance to Manchester sleeper which picked up to Temple Meads (00:10) and got into Manchester at 05:37.   But average journey times have sped up rather since then, and so the idea of a sleeper that people can use for an overnight Bristol to Manchester these days would be something of a nonstarter - you can do the journey in 3 hours, every hour during the day after all, and that's using a train that can make five or six single journeys a day versus the one of the a sleeper set.

But ... I just wonder if the Caledonian sleepers called to pick up / drop off somewhere in the Midlands (perhaps New Street?) connecting to / from the first / last crosscountry trains to Plymouth and Bournemouth.  Competiton for all those Bristol - Scottish lowlands airline flights, and no extra trains needed.  Certainly the Edinburgh / Glasgow sleeper leaves both end of its route very late (yes, I have hung around in Euston and  Edinburgh waiting for it!), and perhaps a longer running time and night's sleep that's extended by half an hour would be welcomed by some of the regulars? 

However - my thoughts are a side-topic outside the current franchise .  I don't think that additional sleeper services in the franchise ...

[The Grecian]

The 1991-92 BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) timetable I possess indicates that there were overnight trains from Glasgow via Edinburgh splitting into services to Plymouth and Poole. Apart from the aforementioned it only called at stations from Bristol Parkway and Oxford respectively to the south. Journey times of 11h15 northbound from Plymouth and 11h35 from Poole, 11h38 and 11h58 southbound.

I suspect the service probably vanished around the time of privatisation, as that's when the Deerstalker Express (the Fort William - Euston sleeper) was under threat.