Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

The agreed electrification of Cardiff to Swansea is very important in that it allows for there to be far more Electric only sets, rather than Bi-Mode.  I can't find the exact figures, but I think GW^▸ (Great Western) were only getting around 10 full electric sets and around 45 5-car bi-mode trains in the pre-HLOS^▸ (High Level Output Specification) specs.  The electrification of Swansea to Cardiff has now enabled this to be shifted to 21 electric units (189 vehicles) and 36 bi-mode units (180 vehicles), so there will be more electric carriages than bi-mode ones.  The valid point is made that diesel engines can be removed from the bi-mode units if more routes become electrified, Swindon to Cheltenham, Bristol to Weston, Newbury to Plymouth etc.

There's one other thing I've spotted.  I thought that in every specification released so far, the GW electric sets were to be 8-car trains, and the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) sets 9-car trains - equivalent to the current number of carriages on each respective route.  Today's press release seems to say that all electric sets will be 9-car, so that's an additional carriage to help with capacity as well all of the carriages being 26 metres as opposed to 23 metres.  That's a 234 metre long train, compared with today's GW HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets which are 216 metres and if a bi-mode runs as a 10-car formation you're looking at 260 metres - major platform works at Paddington will be needed!

It remains a very expensive way to get some new rolling stock, but with the South Wales trains now able to be all-electric it is far from a disastrous situation if you ask me.  Many questions still have to be answered though!

[bobm]

A few questions based on the news release from the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).

They plan to build 92 sets.  How many HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets are there at the moment?  Will these sets be used in the same way as the existing HSTs in that the power cars, which I assume have higher maintainence requirements than the coaches, are swapped about between sets.  If that is the case would it not make sense to have a few more power cars than coach sets?

The new coaches are three metres longer - will that affect route availabilty?  (It will certainly affect how many coaches will fit on the platform at smaller stations.)

They mention building new depots at Bristol, Swansea and West London - which by chance is where FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have three of their HST depots which will presumabley become redundant.  Could not savings be made by some staged conversion of these sites?

[paul7575]

'92 sets' does not easily compare with the number of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) at all, as not all GW^▸ (Great Western) HSTs are being replaced, and many of the 5 car units will run in pairs, with splitting and joining - for instance at Oxford for the Cotswold line.  Also, all the numbers are in service daily, so there'll have to be enough extras to cover maintenance, maybe another 12% or so?

The IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) do not have power cars, they will be fixed formations and the diesel engines are underneath.

ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) only has 13 HSTs at the moment, yet they are getting many more trains than that, some of which are all-electric, and keeping their existing 225s as well.

Hitachi view of numbers:

Provision of 21x 9-car electric trains and 36x 5-car bi-mode trains for Great
Western Main Line into passenger service each weekday (369 vehicles)
Provision of 12 x 5-car electric trains, 10 x 5-car bi-mode trains and 13 x
9-car bi-mode trains into passenger service each weekday for East Coast
Main Line with an option for a further 30 x 9-car electric trains. (227 vehicles
with options for a further 270 vehicles)
http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/medialibrary/2012/07/25/a69090fb/20120725-Hitachi_announces_financial_close_of_IEP_FINAL.pdf

'Route availability' and gauging changes have always been part of the project, the trains don't have to fit the existing infrastructure as it is today, because it will be altered over the next few years.

Paul

[broadgage]

and no compromise on leg-room

That bit should please 'Broadgauge'!

We shall see !
"No compromise on leg room" when compared to what ? a modern high density suburban multiple unit probably !
Probably just slightly worse than an "improved" HST^▸ (High Speed Train), and a lot worse than a proper HST.


I doubt that a 5 car bi mode will be an improvement over an 8 car HST, and yes I know that in theory two 5 car units can be attached, but experience with voyagers and adelantes suggests that single unit operation will be the norm.

[paul7575]

We shall see !
"No compromise on leg room" when compared to what ? a modern high density suburban multiple unit probably !
Probably just slightly worse than an "improved" HST^▸ (High Speed Train), and a lot worse than a proper HST.

"TS1560 It is an essential requirement that a range of solutions are provided for seating areas, which
will provide a style and density of seating to suit the intercity and inter-urban service types
for both Standard and First class..."

You are always pretty consistent with your out and out pessimism, whatever the evidence to the contrary.

I doubt that a 5 car bi mode will be an improvement over an 8 car HST, and yes I know that in theory two 5 car units can be attached, but experience with voyagers and adelantes suggests that single unit operation will be the norm.

The number of units is rising, yet the number of paths down the mainline isn't - so AFAICS^▸ (As Far As I Can See) single unit operation cannot be the norm.

Paul

[Southern Stag]

As far as I know off peak there will be plenty of single unit operation, it's always been mentioned that the sets could be doubled up in the peak to provide 10 carriages. Running them permanetly doubled up would be even more stupid as you lose so much passenger space with the redundant cabs in the middle and require almost double the crew. You need two guards, and at least two customer hosts and two first class hosts.

[broadgage]

"TS1560 It is an essential requirement that a range of solutions are provided for seating areas, which
will provide a style and density of seating to suit the intercity and inter-urban service types
for both Standard and First class..."

You are always pretty consistent with your out and out pessimism, whatever the evidence to the contrary".

My pessimism is born of long experience regarding other new or refurbished trains.
Statements about a "range of solutions" and "to suit both intercity city and interurban services" do not fill me with hope.

Rather than a "range of options" which does not really mean anything at all, I would like to know the following hard facts
1) what % of seats, in each class, will be facing seats at tables, and what % will be bus style.
2) What is the seating pitch in inches/cm, for the bus style seats, and is this more, or less than on a proper HST^▸ (High Speed Train), in each class
3) At the table seats, what are the dimensions of the table, and are these dimensions greater or smaller than on a proper HST
4) At the table seats, what is the gap between seat and table edge, and is this greater or less than the gap on existing trains.
5) What is the internal width of the vehicle at table height and at 1M above table height , and is this more or less than on an HST.

6) Will there  be a proper kitchen, suitable for preparing full, freshly cooked meals on board.

[Btline]

How will a station like Oxford cope with IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) splitting into two bits?

Quite often, a XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Voyager is hot on the heels of a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) service and commuters won't be pleased if they have to queue outside the station to wait for the uncoupling, especially if they are standing (common on XC).

Fingers crossed the Varsity line upgrade with Evergreen 3B will mean the current station is ditched and one fit for purpose it built with at least 4 through platforms plus bays both sides.

Regarding catering, I doubt they'll be buffets, just a trolley - so no need for extra customer hosts if there are two coupled together.

[Milky Bar Kid]

The new franchisee will have a say on plans on seating, i remember seeing plans a while ago for the provision of kitchens on the 9 cars.

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

Re the comment on Oxford platform problems, hopefully by 2017, major improvements to increase capacity will be completed or well on the way to completion.
Has anyone noticed on the Hitachi video that the coaches seem to have vertical cycle racks at the end of the coach with two coaches adjoining so equipped? Very useful on the Cots Line where cycle are often carried, often beyond official capacity

[paul7575]

How will a station like Oxford cope with IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) splitting into two bits?

Quite often, a XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Voyager is hot on the heels of a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) service and commuters won't be pleased if they have to queue outside the station to wait for the uncoupling, especially if they are standing (common on XC).

They'd have to operate the timetable differently - it isn't a big deal, happens routinely all over the 'Southern'.

Oh and why would it only affect 'commuters'?   

Paul

[paul7575]

Rather than a "range of options" which does not really mean anything at all, I would like to know the following hard facts
1) what % of seats, in each class, will be facing seats at tables, and what % will be bus style.
2) What is the seating pitch in inches/cm, for the bus style seats, and is this more, or less than on a proper HST^▸ (High Speed Train), in each class
3) At the table seats, what are the dimensions of the table, and are these dimensions greater or smaller than on a proper HST
4) At the table seats, what is the gap between seat and table edge, and is this greater or less than the gap on existing trains.
5) What is the internal width of the vehicle at table height and at 1M above table height , and is this more or less than on an HST.

6) Will there  be a proper kitchen, suitable for preparing full, freshly cooked meals on board.

All I just quoted from the original train technical spec is one paragraph from 9 pages. 

There is information about required seating dimensions, ratios of tables to airline etc.  I can't copy the table as text, but I've linked through to the document:  http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100104171434/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/iepinvitationtotender/ieptraintechnicalspecifi.pdf

It's table 2 on page 47 that gives some of the dimensions and ratios, but there are many details of interior features, (such as luggage stowage requirements), throughout section 6, on pages 40-49.

If that's the way the train is specified, it ought not to be a million miles different.  You aren't ever going to get an exact replica of a 1980s HST carriage.

Now if you were to say they might not build that, that's a perfectly reasonable opinion.  Problem for me is that your posts are tending towards stating as fact that it will be more like a suburban EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), and you've absolutely no evidence at all...

Paul

[Btline]

They'd have to operate the timetable differently - it isn't a big deal, happens routinely all over the 'Southern'.

True, but Oxford is busier in train movements:platform compared to most of the SN places where trains divide. Also, on SN the second train often goes elsewhere, but at OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) we'll have to wait for the train to be checked and locked before it trundles up to the sidings, possibility crossing other lines on the flat.

Of course, they could send the second train up to Banbury (and Stratford?), but then that would hold XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) up even more.

[broadgage]

Interesting link in post 56, thanks.
The specification SOUNDS OK, if they are actually built like that, about which I have my doubts !
As pointed out, the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) will have flexibility, and I cant imagine that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) or a future TOC would use this flexibility to add more tables, or better catering, or to increase seat spacing.
Changes are invariably for the worse, as may be seen from the recently "improved" HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train).

Such downgrades are invariably justified on the grounds that they improve capacity.
It is worth noting that it will be some years until the new trains come into service.
If growth in passenger numbers continues, then a 9 car new train will be MORE overcrowded when introduced than an 8 car HST is at present.
Therefore the same arguments could be applied, remove the tables and downgrade the catering in order to improve capacity.

[Tim]

If growth in passenger numbers continues, then a 9 car new train will be MORE overcrowded when introduced than an 8 car HST^▸ (High Speed Train) is at present.

The trains will be longer remember (26 not 23m, although there will be cab space in the leading vehicles) and there will be an increase in survices.  BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) will get extra London trains via Parkway which should mean Bath and Chippenham getting more seats on the trains from/to BRI. 

You could also run 2x5 cars.  I expect that the limiting factor is more likely to be platform length rather than train length.