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Author Topic: Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion  (Read 744843 times)
trainer
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« Reply #390 on: May 30, 2014, 16:46:10 »

Trollies sell more than buffets do. Fact.

Does the 'more' in this statement refer to the revenue received or the range of food and drink available? Or perhaps both?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #391 on: May 30, 2014, 16:47:52 »

the former definitely - and possibly the latter
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Network SouthEast
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« Reply #392 on: May 30, 2014, 18:21:41 »

It's worth noting that on the IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.), the tables are full width in 1st and standard. It's only the seats that face a wheelchair bay which have a half width table.

The IEPs are designed to be worked as either DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) or DGO. It's worth noting that as IndustryInsider said just because something could be DOO, doesn't mean it has to be. There are lots of examples of rolling stock that could operate perfectly fine on DOO services, but don't.
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paul7575
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« Reply #393 on: May 30, 2014, 19:50:38 »

DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) would be required just to allow the driver to take empty stock to/from the depot on his own.   With long distance intercity services I just don't see DOO in passenger service, I think the expression is something to do with mountains and molehills...

Paul
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TonyK
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« Reply #394 on: May 30, 2014, 20:30:40 »

There is more to having a train manager than just checking tickets, something that won't be absolutely necessary when all stations called at have a gateline. Passenger safety is the main purpose, although accidents are an absolute rarity now, but a representative of the TOC (Train Operating Company) and a goldmine of information about connecting services are equally valid reasons for having a presence in the passenger areas.
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Now, please!
ChrisB
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« Reply #395 on: May 31, 2014, 10:07:39 »

Which could be provided by the person pushing the trolley (suitably trained, of course).

It could be said that customers would see more of that person if so....
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #396 on: July 05, 2014, 00:39:39 »

From the Daily Mail:

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RMT WARNS OF ACTION OVER NEW TRAINS

A leading rail union is warning of industrial action over the introduction of new trains it said could lead to the axing of guards and buffet cars.

The Rail, Maritime and Transport union has written to the Government making it clear it will ballot for industrial action if guards and buffet cars are not retained on the new Hitachi fleet, set to be introduced on First Great Western and East Coast services.

The union said that under the Intercity Express Programme signed off by the Government, the new fleet - built in Japan and reassembled in the North East by Hitachi - has the capacity to run on driver-only operation, would strip out buffet cars in favour of more seats and could lead to the current in-house fleet maintenance being hived-off to a third party.

Mick Cash, RMT acting general secretary, said: "It defies belief that anyone in their right mind would seriously consider running these inter-city services on a driver-only basis, but the design of the fleet allows for just that in terms of the control panels.

"It is sheer profiteering to strip out the buffet cars and replace them with trolleys. Not only does that undermine the service to passengers but it also denies staff their one place of refuge and rest on these long-range routes.

"RMT is also deeply concerned about the future of the fleet maintenance, which is once again plunged into uncertainty with our members jobs and futures left in the balance.

"RMT is demanding answers and assurances from both the Government and the train companies. If those assurances aren't forthcoming we will move into dispute and begin preparations for ballots."
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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
paul7575
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« Reply #397 on: July 05, 2014, 09:22:35 »

This RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) 'grievance' was being discussed back in May, I guess the Mail have been saving this up for a slow day. There's a link to the RMT's position on the page here:

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/publications/intercity-special-may-2014/

On the driver operation of the doors thing, I think it's been pointed out elsewhere that what is being fitted is basically the same as what they have on Voyagers.  If the train is not built capable of DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) operation for when it is out of passenger service, they'll need guards to cover the ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) runs.   I guess that would suit the RMT better...

Paul
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« Reply #398 on: July 05, 2014, 15:54:50 »

If the train is not built capable of DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) operation for when it is out of passenger service, they'll need guards to cover the ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) runs.

HSTs (High Speed Train) and west units are certainly not DOO enabled, yet seem to survive ECS moves without a guard...?
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sprinterguard
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« Reply #399 on: July 05, 2014, 20:17:30 »

If the train is not built capable of DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) operation for when it is out of passenger service, they'll need guards to cover the ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) runs.

HSTs (High Speed Train) and west units are certainly not DOO enabled, yet seem to survive ECS moves without a guard...?

Although of course many of the West units as I'm sure you know still have the old DOO buttons, being fairly obvious in the 150/1s and slightly hidden in other units.
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« Reply #400 on: July 05, 2014, 20:40:57 »

If the train is not built capable of DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) operation for when it is out of passenger service, they'll need guards to cover the ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) runs.

HSTs (High Speed Train) and west units are certainly not DOO enabled, yet seem to survive ECS moves without a guard...?

Although of course many of the West units as I'm sure you know still have the old DOO buttons, being fairly obvious in the 150/1s and slightly hidden in other units.

Indeed, but never used by drivers for ECS movements - i'm not even sure if those buttons work?
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« Reply #401 on: July 08, 2014, 23:55:33 »

A video news report from ITV News on the progress of the new IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) depot at Stoke Gifford near Bristol:

http://www.itv.com/news/west/story/2014-07-08/new-rail-depot-could-create-200-new-jobs/

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New rail depot could create 200 new jobs

Work has started on a new train depot in South Gloucestershire which will create 200 new jobs.

From 2016, the site in Stoke Gifford will maintain the new inter city trains that will replace the ageing stock on the Great Western Mainline.
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« Reply #402 on: July 22, 2014, 11:28:04 »

There have been a couple of developments recently in this long, on-going saga. I apologise in advance for the length of this post but the topic is important as it affects everybody - whether taxpayers or travellers.

On 9 July 2014 the National Audit Office published its report on the DfT» (Department for Transport - about)'s handling of the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) and Thameslink procurements. I think it is fair to say the NAO was not impressed, although dressed up in mandarin-speak, as it states on its website:

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Today^s report also highlights that the Department was departing from its stated policy of leaving train procurements to the industry, particularly following its decision in July 2013 to exercise an option in the original contract with Agility Trains to add 270 carriages to its Intercity Express order at a cost of ^1.4 billion. This has created confusion in parts of the industry about the Department^s role.

The Department estimates that future payments will be around ^7.65 billion for InterCity Express over 27.5 years and ^2.8 billion for Thameslink over 20 years. Contracts include the cost of the trains themselves as well as the cost of maintenance and of depots. The Department also has the opportunity to gain from future reductions in the cost of financing both procurements.

Today^s report points out that both procurements achieved levels of competition equivalent to or better than other rolling stock procurements since 2000. However, in the case of Intercity Express, the Department decided to proceed with a revised bid without rerunning the competition. The Department view is that no other manufacturer could offer better value for money but this remains untested.

Just two years after the Intercity Express procurement began, the Department decided to electrify the Great Western Mainline which meant that diesel trains were no longer needed. While the programme was designed to be flexible enough to accommodate this change of direction, the NAO recommends that the Department in future major procurements produce a detailed, integrated plan to bring together infrastructure, rolling stock and franchising strategy.

The Department awarded both contracts more than two and a half years later than intended, largely because of pauses to the procurements and the challenge of securing finance for these projects during the financial crises.

The full report is available at http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Procuring-new-trains.pdf

The other part of this story is that Roger Ford, of Modern Railways magazine, has for some years been trying to identify the actual costs to the TOC (Train Operating Company) of these new trains - specifically the IEP. He has in the past produced figures showing what appeared to be excessive costs for the IEP compared to equivalent trains. I used these figures, an extra cost of ^20,000 per month per vehicle making a total of some ^80 million per year for the GW (Great Western), in a letter I wrote to my MP (Member of Parliament) in 2011. Some time later he my MP copied me a letter which he had received from Theresa Villiers of the MoT which took me to task for calling the Intercity Express Programme a 'PPI procurement' when actually it is a 'total train service provision' contract. My numbers were unchallenged so I can only assume they were correct.

This week, in his e-mailed preview of his Informed Sources column in Modern Railways, he Mr. Ford uses the NAO's figures to update his estimation of the monthly cost per diagrammed coach of the Hitachi's Super Express Train.

He shows that, on average, Super Express Train operators will be paying Agility Trains ^64,000 per diagrammed vehicle per month. In 2012 the Pendolinos were costing Virgin ^32,400 per vehicle per month. This is a valid comparison as in both cases the contracts are total train service provision deals combining finance, maintenance and cleaning.

I appreciate that the HSTs (High Speed Train) are nearly at the end of their life, but if IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) the leasing costs of a Mk3 coach are something like ^8,000 to ^10,000 per coach per month. Allowing for the leasing costs of the power cars puts up the 'per coach' cost and to make the comparison more accurate the maintenance costs should be added which fGW does on its own account but which for the IEPs and Pendolinos are included in the leasing payments. Even so 'per coach' the total cost can't be much more than ^20,000 per month.

The NAO has confirmed earlier estimations that the Great Western and East Coast operators will be paying twice as much for their trains as Virgin does on the West Coast for a faster and more complex (tilting) train. And the IEP will cost around THREE times as much as the HSTs currently in use.

The unavoidable conclusion is that some combination of increased fares, reduced premiums or increased subsidy will be necessary for the operators of these trains as it beggars belief that three times the amount of work will be got out of them compared with the HSTs or IC225s.

Or, possibly, the DfT will find some cunning financial engineering way of indemnifying the TOCs for the excessive charges - which means you will pay anyway as a taxpayer.

Edited for clarity.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 16:43:09 by 4064ReadingAbbey » Logged
Rhydgaled
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« Reply #403 on: July 22, 2014, 21:08:29 »

He shows that, on average, Super Express Train operators will be paying Agility Trains ^64,000 per diagrammed vehicle per month. In 2012 the Pendolinos were costing Virgin ^32,400 per vehicle per month. This is a valid comparison as in both cases the contracts are total train service provision deals combining finance, maintenance and cleaning.

I appreciate that the HSTs (High Speed Train) are nearly at the end of their life, but if IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) the leasing costs of a Mk3 coach are something like ^8,000 to ^10,000 per coach per month. Allowing for the leasing costs of the power cars puts up the 'per coach' cost and to make the comparison more accurate the maintenance costs should be added which fGW does on its own account but which for the IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.) and Pendolinos are included in the leasing payments. Even so 'per coach' the total cost can't be much more than ^20,000 per month.

The NAO has confirmed earlier estimations that the Great Western and East Coast operators will be paying twice as much for their trains as Virgin does on the West Coast for a faster and more complex (tilting) train. And the IEP will cost around THREE times as much as the HSTs currently in use.

The unavoidable conclusion is that some combination of increased fares, reduced premiums or increased subsidy will be necessary for the operators of these trains as it beggars belief that three times the amount of work will be got out of them compared with the HSTs or IC225s.
Roger Ford has said in Modern Railways in the past that the increase in rolling stock costs for the East Coast franchise will pretty much wipe out the premium payments currently paid to DfT» (Department for Transport - about). And the GWML (Great Western Main Line) part of the order is the most expensive. There is also still a fair ammount of work that can still be got out of an IC225. In my opinion, especially now that DaFT» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) have committed us to the Insanely Expensive Procurement, the cheapest IC225 retention option (retaining the class 91 locomotives, without lowering their top speed) should be taken. They are however most suited to the ECML (East Coast Main Line). My solution, cascade the new IEPs off the ECML and onto the newly-electrified MML» (Midland Main Line. - about). Much cheaper than another new fleet for the MML and new locos for the IC225s to go to Anglia.
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----------------------------
Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
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« Reply #404 on: July 22, 2014, 23:25:21 »

The unavoidable conclusion is that some combination of increased fares, reduced premiums or increased subsidy will be necessary for the operators of these trains as it beggars belief that three times the amount of work will be got out of them compared with the HSTs (High Speed Train) or IC225s.


As i said in teh GWML (Great Western Main Line) electrifiation thread on IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.) to Banbury the 3 times work comes from the DfT» (Department for Transport - about)'s fantasy diagram group
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