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Author Topic: Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion  (Read 743802 times)
bobm
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« Reply #465 on: September 18, 2014, 22:00:45 »

Who'd want to travel in a carriage called 'bignosemac'?

<shudder>

You'd could have a coach all to yourself!  Grin
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Trowres
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« Reply #466 on: September 19, 2014, 01:30:02 »

Following in the railway tradition of names from mythology, how about this list?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures_from_Japan
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TonyK
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« Reply #467 on: September 19, 2014, 07:18:55 »


As an aside, I once got arrested in Cleveleys. Long time ago and a very different bignosemac.  Lips sealed

We have more in common than we ever knew!
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Now, please!
broadgage
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« Reply #468 on: September 19, 2014, 08:47:43 »

Who'd want to travel in a carriage called 'bignosemac'?

<shudder>

With all due respect to our esteemed member, I think that broadgage might sound better ! Decorate the vehicle with pictures of the old broad gauge railway. I do not think that I want a nasty modern vehicle named after me, but suppose that the first class driving vehicle in which meals MIGHT be served would be OK.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Rhydgaled
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« Reply #469 on: September 19, 2014, 10:04:49 »

Would it be economical to use a HST (High Speed Train) set that will likely, in the future, have to come from Laira, for the one day a week (and in the Summer only) London<->Pembroke Dock services?

Also begs the question whether it would be economical to clear the route for the bi-mode IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.). I hope the Pembroke Coast Express can continue beyond IEP introduction, but worry that the economic case may not stack up.
The IEP route-clearance map shows diversionary routes such as Newcastle - Carlisle - Edinburgh but no clearance for IEP west of Carmarthen. Narberth tunnel is narrow and on quite a tight curve, clearance would presumably be incredibly expensive. Even a Laira-based IC125 is likely to be more economical than that. The Wales & Borders franchise cannot provide sufficient capacity to cover for the loss of the IC125 services.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
grahame
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« Reply #470 on: September 19, 2014, 10:29:24 »

The IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) route-clearance map ...

Appendix at

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4888/dft-f0008119.pdf

As it's FOI (Freedom of Information) / in the public domain, I guess I can add screen captures of the maps ;-)
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Richard Fairhurst
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« Reply #471 on: October 15, 2014, 12:08:59 »

Some time ago, the model IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) timetable was posted here, as a PDF I think. I've searched back and can't find it again. Could anyone better at searching than me remind me of the link, please?
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #472 on: October 15, 2014, 23:34:21 »

Some time ago, the model IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) timetable was posted here, as a PDF I think. I've searched back and can't find it again. Could anyone better at searching than me remind me of the link, please?
I've not done any searching, but I think the file you are reffering to was an .xslx, which I have saved on my laptop. I've uploaded it attached to this post, along with a .xls version on which I have attempted to highlight the use of the (in my opinion far too many) 5-car sets. This second file, I hope, explains in part why I keep going on about the huge numbers of 5-car bi-modes (and complete lack of 9-car ones) for the Great Western at almost every oportunity.

I am, quite frankly, horrified at the apparent widespread reduction in capacity despite:
  • The current, controvertial, measures to increase the capacity of the entire present fleet of IC125 trains and
  • The range of high-profile enhancements (electrification being the most obvious) which are bound to increase the number of passengers trying to use the new trains
Only Bristol seems to get away lightly, with most of the current services maintained at a reasonable length alongside frequency upgrades. I suppose Cheltenham may or may not work out alright, depending on whether patronage spreads out to match the spreading out of the capacity (5-car every hour instead of alternate 2+8 IC125 and 2/3-car Sprinter).

----------------------------------
Specifically bi-modes
Which (for Great Western) are currently all planned to be just 5-car, and will be replacing the IC125s on the Cotswolds not just the 180s.

On page 240 of the Western Route Study Draft f October 2014 or Consultation, in Appendix B
Rolling stock assumptions
it lists the bimodes as:
NameClassDescriptionAssumed capacityLocation/service assumed to
operate in 2019 ITSS
10-car bi-mode IEPSET (Super Express Train (now IET))Super Express Train - two Electric Multiple Units
with five carriages fitted with diesel engines to
operate on routes without electrification coupled
together to form a train with ten carriages
Seats: 630 Seats
+ standing: 756
Hereford via Oxford to London Paddington,
Cheltenham via Kemble to London Paddington

AFAIK (as far as I know), that's always been the party line - 10-car trains that can run half-length out of the peak if you are sure they won't get to full.

Of course you may still suspect there won't be enough 10-car trains. And you may also wonder how well they will serve short platforms.
I certainly suspect that, and all the evidence I've seen seems to support that suspiscion. I'm afraid, very afraid, that my fears will be proved true. The 10-car trains in the draft timetable are pretty much limited to peak services in and out of London. Many off-peak services which are currently IC125s are reduced to a single 5-car and even some peak services in and out of cities other than London. I also am concerned about the short platforms and portion working (although that seems quite limited on the draft timetable) with non-gangwayed stock such as IEP.

It won't - see above from the Western Route Study...2 x5cars in the peaks.
As said above: only the London peaks seem to be completely covered by long trains. I suspect many of the off-peak services that are currently IC125s also load to more than 315 passengers at some point in their journey too. There is of course the question of what will happen in the case of the Severn Tunnel being closed given the lack of 9-car bi-modes. Presumably, you could transfer passengers for Weston-Super-Mare onto a DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) (or bi-mode IEP) at Bristol and use more of the 'electric' IEP units between PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) and BRI» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) to release some bi-modes to enable you to extend the Cheltenham services through to Swansea, but with all the bi-modes being 5-car that would likely mean having to squeese all the Cheltenham and S. Wales pax onto 5-car workings.

There seems to me no solution unless DfT» (Department for Transport - about) can be convinced that it better to have some (more)  spares for strengthening, covering failures, specials etc, plus meaning the rest of the fleet has to be less intensively used.

Plus any unit should be able to couple and work in multiple with any other unit and have corridor connections.
The DfT certainly need to be convinced that the IEP deployment strategy needs modification. While some spares would be useful, I can't see corridor connections being possible on a 125mph unit and in any case it's too late to change the design of IEP. My view is that new orders should either specify corridor connections (UEGs (Unit End Gangway)) or be planned such that multiple working is not required (such as the Thameslink fleet, which comes in long-enough formations that multiple-working is very unlikely).

I thus believe the best possible outcome would be an ajustment to the ratio of driving vehicles to intermediate cars on the Great Western bi-mode fleet to allow longer formations. If I've done my analysis well enough, I reckon the 32x 5-car diagrams need to be reduced to 9-12 5-car diagrams (for workings where a 180 would cope, essentially) and supplemented by 16 9-car diagrams. That's 86-92 driving vehicles diagrammed (rather than 100) and 265-274 intermediate cars (rather than 222). Clearly, the total number of diagramed vehicles there (351-366) is higher than the 322 currently destined for the Great Western, but surely something creative can be done with the ECML (East Coast Main Line), MML» (Midland Main Line. - about), IC225s and IC225-replacement-IEPs to allow some IEP vehicles from the EC order to be transfered to the GW (Great Western).

If I knew how to work social media (which I don't), I might try to launch an online petition. As things stand though, I wouldn't get enough pepole to see it for the government to take any notice, so I'm stuck with trying to figure out how to write DfT a letter that is (a.) short enough to actually get read and (b.) effective enough to actually spur them into action to sort this out.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 13:14:42 by Rhydgaled » Logged

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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
ChrisB
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« Reply #473 on: October 16, 2014, 14:41:40 »

Have you observed South & North Cotswold HSTs (High Speed Train) in the off-peak? Very lightly loaded beyond Oxford/Reading frankly, and 5cars ought to be sufficient.

I suspect 10cars to/from Oxford where necessary, detaching/attaching one set at Oxford, which will leave ample space going forward. Don't forget the Slough stops are removed from North Cotswold services in this TT

Remains to be seen how the South Cotswolds copes, but aren't services there being increased?
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #474 on: October 16, 2014, 15:14:44 »

Have you observed South & North Cotswold HSTs (High Speed Train) in the off-peak? Very lightly loaded beyond Oxford/Reading frankly, and 5cars ought to be sufficient.
Nope, not observed them but am assuming there must be a good reason why all the GW (Great Western) IC125s are 2+8 with no 2+7 sets anymore for lighter-loaded services. From the timetable, all Hereford services seem to be IC125s. Perhaps the 'good reason' is that the 2+8 formation is needed between Oxford/Reading and PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) regardless of the western destination, in which case if you reduce the trains to 5-car how do you ensure passengers going to the western destinations don't have to stand to Reading/Oxford? Another reason that the IC125 sets are all long now might be that all the diagrams cover a peak (or Wales, pretty sure Newport, Cardiff, Swansea etc. are big enough to keep even off-peak trains fairly busy) working at some point and so need to be long for that, which again is a problem with IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) unless you have a load more 5-car sets that you park in sidings off-peak.

I suspect 10cars to/from Oxford where necessary, detaching/attaching one set at Oxford, which will leave ample space going forward.
The draft diagrams don't show that at all, and there only seem to be one or two sets spending most of the day out of service that could be used to add capacity anywhere. I also don't like the idea of splitting non-gangwayed trains.

Remains to be seen how the South Cotswolds copes, but aren't services there being increased?
Which is south Cotswolds? If you mean Cheltenham - Swindon then nope, the draft timetable above show it is still an hourly service, just with all trains running through to London instead of roughly half of them.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
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« Reply #475 on: October 16, 2014, 15:33:51 »

One good thing about the introduction of IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) on the Cotswold line will be the end of 2 and 3 car Turbos.
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« Reply #476 on: October 16, 2014, 16:16:37 »

Of course you can always pull or push your all electric train with a 3Mw diesel loco off the wires.

Isn't that what autocouplers and common control gear are  for?

OOps forgot we haven't got standard couplers or control gear.
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stuving
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« Reply #477 on: October 16, 2014, 16:27:50 »

Of course you can always pull or push your all electric train with a 3Mw diesel loco off the wires.

Isn't that what autocouplers and common control gear are  for?

OOps forgot we haven't got standard couplers or control gear.

No, there are adaptors kept somewhere - and this is precisely what the diesel engines were specified for.
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #478 on: October 16, 2014, 22:06:34 »


If I knew how to work social media (which I don't), I might try to launch an online petition. As things stand though, I wouldn't get enough pepole to see it for the government to take any notice, so I'm stuck with trying to figure out how to write DfT» (Department for Transport - about) a letter that is (a.) short enough to actually get read and (b.) effective enough to actually spur them into action to sort this out.

Have you tried writing to your MP (Member of Parliament)? I have now written to mine twice on this topic asking for his assistance in getting the project modified to reduce costs, once a couple of years ago and once more recently. I both cases he forwarded it to the DfT. In the first instance I received an asinine answer from Villiers (for it was she); I am still waiting for a response to the second letter.

Do try it, even little drops of water can wear away the stone...!

But do keep the letter short, factual and to the point. The more that the MPs realise that there is unrest something might be done.
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« Reply #479 on: October 16, 2014, 22:11:57 »

Not very practical at this stage to reduce costs.  Even ordering more reduces the unit costs.  Cancelling the order would be prohibitively expensive at this stage.
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