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Author Topic: Intercity Express Programme (IEP) - ongoing discussion  (Read 743779 times)
grahame
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« Reply #1140 on: May 03, 2018, 11:32:22 »

I thought that they are mainly half length, 14 full length and 22 half length. So these "higher specification" units for the longer journeys are still mainly 5 car, still have no buffets, and presumably a similar internal layout.

It depends if you count the number of trains (14 always long v 22 potentially short) or the number of carriages (126 always in long trains, but only 110 in potentially short trains).  Passenger logic suggests the more important measure is the number of carriages, as longer trains can carry more passengers.
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« Reply #1141 on: May 03, 2018, 11:51:37 »

You also predicted that extra 802 units ordered would be 5-car ones when they were actually 9-car ones.
Are you certain that the class 802s are full length ? I thought that they are mainly half length, 14 full length and 22 half length. So these "higher specification" units for the longer journeys are still mainly 5 car, still have no buffets, and presumably a similar internal layout.
And as with the first lot, the 5 car units will enter service first so we will presumably have 5 car trains to the far West initially, during training.

I was referring to the extra units ordered in 2016 which Paul told us about:

An announcement this morning confirms 7 more trains to bring the total fleet up to a total of 93,  comprised of 57 IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.), 29 West Country extras, and now these that presumably cope with the slightly decreased number of EMUs (Electric Multiple Unit) following the 387/365 changes made recently:

You replied with:

Quote from: broadgage
I would presume 5 car.
My natural cynicism says they will be 5 car. If a press release refers to "additional trains" without mentioning the length of said new trains then it is a reasonable assumption that they will be short ones.
If the additional trains ARE to be 9 car then I believe that the press release would have said "9 car ----"

When, thankfully, they were all 9-car.
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« Reply #1142 on: May 03, 2018, 12:02:56 »

Yes, you are correct in that the extras are indeed 9 car.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #1143 on: May 04, 2018, 13:01:42 »

You were certainly proved to be right in some cases, but you were incorrect in assumptions that legroom would reduce (it has increased) and that provisional internal layouts with more tables than the HST (High Speed Train)'s would change when the units were built (they remained the same and percentage of seats at tables has increased over the current HST layout).  You also said that underfloor engines would spoil the experience (farting and belching was the phrase you used IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly)), when you can barely hear or feel them.  You also predicted that extra 802 units ordered would be 5-car ones when they were actually 9-car ones.

Your 'now famous' crystal ball gets a 5 out of 10 in my reckoning.  Room for improvement.  Wink

Are you certain that the class 802s are full length ? I thought that they are mainly half length, 14 full length and 22 half length. So these "higher specification" units for the longer journeys are still mainly 5 car, still have no buffets, and presumably a similar internal layout.
And as with the first lot, the 5 car units will enter service first so we will presumably have 5 car trains to the far West initially, during training.


They will run as 5x2  10 car units from Paddington to plymouth, and then split with 5 cars running to Penzance during the low season, and during the higher season, I believe the 9 car 802s will replace them so passengers can walk all the way through.
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broadgage
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« Reply #1144 on: May 04, 2018, 13:42:29 »


They will run as 5x2  10 car units from Paddington to plymouth, and then split with 5 cars running to Penzance during the low season, and during the higher season, I believe the 9 car 802s will replace them so passengers can walk all the way through.

Whilst that sounds logical and sensible, I remain doubtful as to how well it will work in practice.
Use of a 5+5 train that divides at Plymouth should indeed be fine in the low season, and substituting a full length 802 to run the whole route sounds sensible in the high season, This begs the question "what happens to the 802s during the off season".
Noting the great cost of these new trains, I cant foresee them being left idle, or utilised only sparingly during the off season.

I consider it more probable that the timetable will be planned so as to fully use these very expensive trains, with very little margin for peak flows.

5+5 to Plymouth and 5 only West of Plymouth may work fine most of the time, but I predict that if only 5 vehicles is the norm to Penzance, then that is exactly what you will get, no matter how busy. "We cant obtain extra trains just for the odd bank holiday"
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #1145 on: May 09, 2018, 21:13:48 »

An IET (Intercity Express Train) set visited Plymouth Laira depot for the first time today.  Stated elsewhere that driver training at Plymouth has started this week.
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devonexpress
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« Reply #1146 on: May 10, 2018, 07:50:23 »


They will run as 5x2  10 car units from Paddington to plymouth, and then split with 5 cars running to Penzance during the low season, and during the higher season, I believe the 9 car 802s will replace them so passengers can walk all the way through.

Whilst that sounds logical and sensible, I remain doubtful as to how well it will work in practice.
Use of a 5+5 train that divides at Plymouth should indeed be fine in the low season, and substituting a full length 802 to run the whole route sounds sensible in the high season, This begs the question "what happens to the 802s during the off season".
Noting the great cost of these new trains, I cant foresee them being left idle, or utilised only sparingly during the off season.

I consider it more probable that the timetable will be planned so as to fully use these very expensive trains, with very little margin for peak flows.

5+5 to Plymouth and 5 only West of Plymouth may work fine most of the time, but I predict that if only 5 vehicles is the norm to Penzance, then that is exactly what you will get, no matter how busy. "We cant obtain extra trains just for the odd bank holiday"

Most of the time 5 cars should be enough for Plymouth to Penzance, Id imagine during holiday periods it would change to 9 car IET (Intercity Express Train)'s right through, with the 5 car units, then going to Oxford, Cotswold Line, Cheltenham and Paignton to displace the 9 car units being used on strengthened Cornwall bound services.
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« Reply #1147 on: May 10, 2018, 10:53:58 »

There may be a small amount of flex to swap 5 cars with 9 cars to cope with seasonal or special demand (a benefit of a fleet with a variety of lengths), but like Broadgage I don’t think you will see a wholesale change for Cornwall over summer.

Let’s not forget that the other routes you mention, such as Paignton and the Cotswolds, are also busier over summer, perhaps not the spike that Cornwall gets, but busier nonetheless.  Also, the additional services within Devon and Cornwall will also ease the pressure a little on the longer distance trains.
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« Reply #1148 on: July 01, 2018, 12:35:08 »

Here's something I didn't get round to last week. When I met my first 9-car IET (Intercity Express Train), I thought I would repeat the exercise of noting down the marked vehicle tare weights. You may recall what I found on a 5-car: 47.8 + 50.1 + 50.3 + 50.6 + 51.7, total 250.5 t. Of course a 9-car is longer, and dispatch is slicker than it was in November, so I didn't expect to do it all in one go (though the real problem is how many numbers I can remember before I have to write them down!).

Anyway, on approaching the first carriage (DPTF? I think it was that way round) I found not only its tare but a box of small print containing (inter alia) the weight of the whole unit: 431.5t. And next to that was another box for a 5-car, with its weight: 250.4 t (matching my total to within plausible rounding).

Now why (I hear you all cry) does it have that as well? Could this be interchangeable with one in a 5-car? Maybe - its marked tare (47.9 t) is almost the same as one of them. But that raises another question, as I had assumed (despite Wikipedia's use of labels DPTF and DPTS) that a 5-car has only one transformer, while a 9-car has two. If so, obviously the lighter driving trailer has none, so both on a 9-car should be around 51.7 t. We await further news. And I'd still like to know the definition of "tare" in this context.
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paul7575
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« Reply #1149 on: July 01, 2018, 13:12:52 »

But that raises another question, as I had assumed (despite Wikipedia's use of labels DPTF and DPTS) that a 5-car has only one transformer, while a 9-car has two. If so, obviously the lighter driving trailer has none, so both on a 9-car should be around 51.7 t. We await further news. And I'd still like to know the definition of "tare" in this context.
I think in the general case of EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) vehicle codes T is for trailer, not transformer, just in case that's how you are interpreting it.

Paul
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stuving
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« Reply #1150 on: July 01, 2018, 13:24:51 »

But that raises another question, as I had assumed (despite Wikipedia's use of labels DPTF and DPTS) that a 5-car has only one transformer, while a 9-car has two. If so, obviously the lighter driving trailer has none, so both on a 9-car should be around 51.7 t. We await further news. And I'd still like to know the definition of "tare" in this context.
I think in the general case of EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) vehicle codes T is for trailer, not transformer, just in case that's how you are interpreting it.

Paul

Of course you're right - and in any case transformer is spelled with an X, isn't it? And maybe I'm the only person who thinks it should be part of the code anyway.
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« Reply #1151 on: July 01, 2018, 13:29:58 »

Is it correct that some 11-car units have been ordered? If so, when do they arrive and where will they run?
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paul7575
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« Reply #1152 on: July 01, 2018, 13:50:13 »

Is it correct that some 11-car units have been ordered? If so, when do they arrive and where will they run?

I don't think so, but there are definitely references in one of the later online specs to the design having to allow for extension up to a 312m maximum, (ie 12 car) which is I suspect defined by infrastructure limitations, particularly at the main terminus stations.

Another area though, where extension to 11 car has been previously mentioned, is Crossrail, apparently that length of Class 345 would be possible and the underground station tunnels all have provision for it. 

Paul
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grahame
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« Reply #1153 on: July 01, 2018, 13:58:57 »

Is it correct that some 11-car units have been ordered? If so, when do they arrive and where will they run?

Not heard that ...

* GWR (Great Western Railway) have ordered 5 cars (36 x 800 and 22 x 802) and 9 cars (21 x 800 and 14 x 9)

* LNER» (London North Eastern Railway - about) have ordered (or inherited order if you like 5 car (10 x 800 and  12 x 801) and 9 car (13 x 800 and 30 x 801)

* TPE (Trans Pennine Express) have ordered 5 car (19 x 802)

* Hull Trains have ordered 5 car (5 x 802)
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stuving
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« Reply #1154 on: July 01, 2018, 14:59:03 »

Is it correct that some 11-car units have been ordered? If so, when do they arrive and where will they run?

I don't think so, but there are definitely references in one of the later online specs to the design having to allow for extension up to a 312m maximum, (ie 12 car) which is I suspect defined by infrastructure limitations, particularly at the main terminus stations.

Another area though, where extension to 11 car has been previously mentioned, is Crossrail, apparently that length of Class 345 would be possible and the underground station tunnels all have provision for it. 

Paul

The IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) requirement actually called for:
Quote
3.3 Unit Formation and Length
TS1829 IEP Units must be equipped with a Driving IEP Vehicle at each end and allow the IEP train be driven in either direction from each Driving IEP Vehicle.
TS223 IEP Units must be able to operate within the following length constraints:
• Maximum length – nominally 312m (this is the maximum design length of an IEP Unit); and
• Minimum length – nominally 130m, where two minimum length IEP Units coupled together form an IEP Train no longer than 260m.
TS1977 It must be possible to add Intermediate IEP Vehicles to an IEP Unit subject to the IEP Unit still being no greater than the maximum length identified in TS223.
TS1979 It must be possible to remove Intermediate IEP Vehicles from an IEP Unit from any intermediate position subject to the Intermediate IEP Vehicles being removed being of the correct Functional Vehicle Type and the IEP Unit remaining at least the minimum length.
TS1980 The design of the IEP Units must ensure the time to add or remove Intermediate IEP Vehicle is minimised and is in any event no greater than 8 hours.
TS1589 With regards to IEP Unit reconfiguration it must be possible to reconfigure software and control systems within 15 minutes when Intermediate IEP Vehicles have been added, removed or replaced.

I'm not sure how that fits with the motor vehicles all being different weights, hence by implication having different bits of the train's equipment.

On 345s, they would need a substantial redesign for any extra vehicles to be added. And the underground stations at Heathrow are either very hard or impossible to extend, and after WRAtH (Western Rail Access to Heathrow) hasn't allowed for extension that becomes even impossibler.
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