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Author Topic: Bristol-Bath Railway Path improvement work  (Read 30256 times)
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2020, 23:19:15 »

I guess an awful lot of clearance and foundation work would need to be done.

Whether anyone has the same concerns as me or not, I suspect that this is the issue that will stand in the way of widening.

It isn?t a matter of simply sending a JCB in to scrape a bit of weed and topsoil away (although even that wouldn?t come cheap over a 16-mile run and more if you did the route out to Westerleigh as well).

There would need to be sufficient depth dug out to form foundations, drainage may need to be altered, access points would need modification and some if not all of the street lights would have to be moved. Also, given that some 10 years elapsed between the railway?s closure and the route being inaugurated in its new form, there might be sewers, water mains, gas pipes or electricity cable runs buried under there.

And all that before you start to talk about separation bollards between the two halves, and possibly traffic calming measures such as speed humps, gates or chicanes to slow the faster cyclists down on the bank.

I?ll leave someone else who has more Quantity Surveying experience than me to price that lot, but it will be clear to everybody that it won?t be funded from a series of jumble sales and collection tins ? unless we ask Tony Berkeley and his group to cost it of course...  Wink


We are mainly discussing the section from Fishponds into Bristol, so 4km at most. Beyond that things are much less contentious. The cost ought to be slightly less than the price of a two-lane road, as in essence that's what they'd be building. It would just be a road for bikes, not cars.

Speed control features may be necessary, but not the kind of often-dangerous and badly-planned contrivances that we have become used to. Do I get away with mentioning LTN (Low Traffic Neighbourhood) 1/20 again?

There is a quid pro quo here. If decent money is to be spent on cycling infrastructure, then cyclists have to use it responsibly. A 4m path will allow faster riders to overtake the slow, but crossings and signals will have to be respected by all.
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2020, 06:53:13 »

The problem is that there is a minority of cyclists who think rules don't apply to them, just as with motorists. Says he, having just cycled to work and avoiding cyclists who think cycle/drive on the left does not apply!
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2020, 09:08:23 »

If decent money is to be spent on cycling infrastructure, then cyclists have to use it responsibly.
There's a wider point here as well. There isn't, as we know, much money spent on cycling infrastructure. The very fact that the government treats Sustrans, a charity, as a civil service agency where in other fields it might create a "Cycleways England", indicates this. Given that there isn't much funding and that the BBRP is already pretty good, I'd far rather see cycle infrastructure improvements in other parts of Bristol. These shouldn't be alternatives, but then they should have been done 40 years ago.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2020, 09:28:24 »

If decent money is to be spent on cycling infrastructure, then cyclists have to use it responsibly.
There's a wider point here as well. There isn't, as we know, much money spent on cycling infrastructure. The very fact that the government treats Sustrans, a charity, as a civil service agency where in other fields it might create a "Cycleways England", indicates this. Given that there isn't much funding and that the BBRP is already pretty good, I'd far rather see cycle infrastructure improvements in other parts of Bristol. These shouldn't be alternatives, but then they should have been done 40 years ago.

Well... the government have just quadrupled the annual spend on cycling infrastructure. Four times not very much is still not very much, but then cycling infrastructure is really cheap (even when, as rarely happens, it is done well) compared with any other type of transport system.

My take on this section of the BBRP is that it isn't fit for purpose. I would rather take my chances on Fishponds Road.
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« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2020, 10:42:35 »

Fishponds Road and all the other roads that might benefit from some decent cycle infrastructure aren't of course in Sustrans' remit to do anything to. But that's where IMO (in my opinion) the something is needed. And within what Sustrans can do, there's an awful lot of far worse paths than this one. As Sustrans themselves acknowledged not so long ago. I think the figure they came up with was only 46% of their network could be classified as good?
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2020, 12:03:18 »

Quote from: Red Squirrel link=topic=10506s!.msg294762#msg294762 date=1601281704
My take on this section of the BBRP is that it isn't fit for purpose. I would rather take my chances on Fishponds Road.

I think you might be in a minority there on both counts  Grin

On the section of Fishponds Road and Stapleton Road that form the alternative route, you have quite heavy traffic congestion all day. There are traffic lights at Fishponds Morrisons, Lodge Causeway, Royate Hill, Muller Road, Eastville Junction and the sheer joys of crossing the Inner Ring Road near Armoury Square. A whole lot of fun is not a description that springs to mind.

When I lived in Staple Hill as a kid and often rode my bike into Bristol (the railway was still open then of course so the path didn't exist) I often went via Whitehall and Soundwell rather than Eastville and Fishponds because it always seemed the quieter and safer route even then - and that was in the 1960s!

Now I have to admit that whilst I have walked and ridden the path numerous times I have never done it in the peak, so I shall have to take other peoples word for it about congestion on the path at those times. That said, we do appear to have had a step change in working and commuting habits that seem increasing likely to last well beyond the present pandemic, and indeed might never return to what was once normal at all.

This then begins to beg the question wehther any proposed improvements are trying to solve yesterdays problems rather than todays? I am nof forming a view one way or the other, but simply posing the question.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2020, 12:52:29 »

...
This then begins to beg the question wehther any proposed improvements are trying to solve yesterdays problems rather than todays? I am nof forming a view one way or the other, but simply posing the question.

No-one really knows what the post-COVID world will look like, but there does seem to be a growing consensus that cycling and walking must play a much greater role in urban transport.. For this to happen, it has to become easier and safer to cycle, and harder and more expensive to drive. That's today's problem, and tomorrow's.

According to DfT» (Department for Transport - about) Statistics, 42% of people over 5 years old have access to a bicycle, but 66% of over-18's think it is too dangerous to cycle on the road. There is a clear opportunity here! To quote Gear Change:

Quote
A travel revolution in our streets, towns and communities will have made cycling a mass form of transit. Cycling and walking will be the natural first choice for many journeys with half of all journeys in towns and cities being cycled or walked by 2030.

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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2020, 13:45:59 »


According to DfT» (Department for Transport - about) Statistics, 42% of people over 5 years old have access to a bicycle, but 66% of over-18's think it is too dangerous to cycle on the road.

It was only when I quoted you to reply I realised hat there was a link in there!

In my experience polls do not necessarily show what one might think or like to believe they show. To me it suggests that money might also need to be spent on education when people may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I doubt that a poll of cyclists only would support that poll outcome.

For example, if you conducted a poll amongst non-rail users about what they thoight of the railways, you would probably find a majority of people thinking that trains were always late, filthy, horrifically expensive and the staff were specially trained in how to be as rude to passengers as possible.

And I wouldn't set too much store by that either  Grin
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2020, 15:40:33 »

...

In my experience polls do not necessarily show what one might think or like to believe they show. To me it suggests that money might also need to be spent on education when people may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I doubt that a poll of cyclists only would support that poll outcome.



I think the poll suggests that there may be significant untapped demand for safe cycling routes.

Experience in other countries suggests that when well-engineered, coherent networks are built they are very popular. Gear Change is an apt title, though what the government propose could perhaps be better described as a sea change. LTN (Low Traffic Neighbourhood) 1/20 is not just about men with a penchant for lycra. It also seeks to make cycling routes accessible to less-able people, so that for example tricycles and electrically-assisted bikes are catered for. Visual impairment presents its own challenges, but good design such as contrasting materials and tactile surfaces can help.
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2020, 16:56:12 »

...

In my experience polls do not necessarily show what one might think or like to believe they show. To me it suggests that money might also need to be spent on education when people may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I doubt that a poll of cyclists only would support that poll outcome.
Visual impairment presents its own challenges, but good design such as contrasting materials and tactile surfaces can help.

Tell me about it  Grin

My glaucoma makes it very difficult to disnguish grey items from other grey items. so often finding the kerb whan crossing a road can involve a bit of luck and guesswork. In addition, street furniture such as street lights and poles for traffic signs and waste bins are often grey so as to be unobtrusive, which is great for sighted people but something of a nuisance when I walk into the bloody things...

A couple of ywars ago I went head first over an empty upturned black recycling box because it was a bright sunlit day but that bit of pavement was in shade, and I hadn't seen it coming...

But I digress. The point I was making was that perception and reality can often be two different things. 66% of over 18s may well say they think its dangerous to cycle on the road and, if they are biking it up Edgeware Road or Temple Way in Btistol I may well agree with them, althouh those self-same over 18-year olds would probably have no problem crossing those roads as a pedestrian. But if they are cycling the back streets of a major city or around most of the main roads in an average market town, I would suggest they are overestimating the dangers.

I am certainly not saying that we shouldn't provide better cycling routes, but I am suggesting that trying to point out what the true situation is out there would be beneficial.

As an aside, when I was a kid only one member of my extended family had a car, my fathers brother in law. and he laid that up for the four months of the winter. If I wanted to go anywhre it was on the train or bus if I could afford it, or more often on the bike. And anyone who is thinking of a rejoinder such as "ah yes but there was less traffic back then" might do well to remember there were no motorways and few bypasses either, and the traffic on Fishpomds Road in Bristol was just as bad then as it is now!

For my younger readers here is an informative video of what Gloucester was like in those days. There are plenty of people on bikes to be seen, and not a safety helmet in sight!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDtjscPwrKY

« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 17:20:26 by Robin Summerhill » Logged
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2020, 17:55:30 »

For my younger readers here is an informative video of what Gloucester was like in those days. There are plenty of people on bikes to be seen, and not a safety helmet in sight!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDtjscPwrKY


It's busy but in a different way to nowadays. Far fewer cars and more but smaller lorries compared to what you'd find in a city centre today. And virtually no vans! Didn't see many buses either. Just as significantly, the traffic seemed to behave in a different way; more of a constant slow flow with the few hold ups caused by bad parking (that hasn't changed) or vehicles in front turning right, rather than today's stop, start and accelerate.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2020, 17:58:10 »

Experience in other countries suggests that when well-engineered, coherent networks are built they are very popular. Gear Change is an apt title, though what the government propose could perhaps be better described as a sea change. LTN (Low Traffic Neighbourhood) 1/20 is not just about men with a penchant for lycra. It also seeks to make cycling routes accessible to less-able people, so that for example tricycles and electrically-assisted bikes are catered for. Visual impairment presents its own challenges, but good design such as contrasting materials and tactile surfaces can help.
The irony being that so far, many of those obstacles have been introduced in the name of cycling; the barriers and gates intended to keep cars and motorbikes off cycle paths. Worst IMO (in my opinion) are the foot-height things with one low side and one high side, but I'm sure everyone's got their own anti-favourite.
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2020, 19:59:04 »

For my younger readers here is an informative video of what Gloucester was like in those days. There are plenty of people on bikes to be seen, and not a safety helmet in sight!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDtjscPwrKY


It's busy but in a different way to nowadays. Far fewer cars and more but smaller lorries compared to what you'd find in a city centre today. And virtually no vans! Didn't see many buses either. Just as significantly, the traffic seemed to behave in a different way; more of a constant slow flow with the few hold ups caused by bad parking (that hasn't changed) or vehicles in front turning right, rather than today's stop, start and accelerate.

I don't think we should read too much into the detail because we will never know what didn't make the final edit.

There were certainly plenty of buses around in Gloucester at that time, and delivery vans too. I think the overall impression one gets is more important - city centres were certainly not devoid of traffic in those days and cyclists (Gloucester was sometimes called The Land of Bikes back then because the city is relatively flat) just got on with it.

Cycling was actually more restricted in those days, with cycling on the pavement and through parks a distinct no-no. And you were much more likely to be stopped by that now-extinct breed, the copper on the beat, for any transgressions. And the same would have happened to those bad parkers when PC Plod ambled along.

I could easily turn this post into a parody of The Four Yorkshireman sketch but we're far enough off topic already  Grin
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Kempis
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« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2020, 21:30:52 »

For my younger readers here is an informative video of what Gloucester was like in those days. There are plenty of people on bikes to be seen, and not a safety helmet in sight!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDtjscPwrKY

Thanks for the link to the video, Robin.

I was struck by the distinctive red and white cars on the transporter visible from about 7:35 to 7:50, but am having difficulty identifying them. I wondered whether they might be examples of some sort of Ford (Consul? Popular?) or Sunbeam Rapiers, but I'm not sure that either of those suggestions is correct (the cars on the transporter have an external spare wheel mounted on the boot). Does anyone know?

(Apologies for prolonging the off-topic digression.)
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TonyN
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« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2020, 21:52:41 »

Nash Metropolitan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_Metropolitan
American car made by Austin the ones in the video where proberbly being moved from Longbridge to Avonmouth.
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