Fares consultation

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

Having finished my response to the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise consultation I settled down to read the fares consultation.

Breathtakingly out of touch - They listed their rationale for the status quo on which fares are regualted and which are not, and have not even invited comment on this!

Aparently London commuter fares have to be regualated because they have no choice, but somehow all the business travellers who have to travel to London in what they still define as the peak have some sort of choice - they can choose an off-peak fare!  Please can someone tell me how to be on time in Westminster for a 10:30 meeting from Swindon and legally only pay an off peak fare! (I mean actually in the meeting for 10:30 not just turning up at their front door at that time).

Since a significant proportion on the meetings I go to are to meet civil servants so that they can gauge the views of industry you would have thought they might realise that these people have as little choice as the communting civil servants!

They are either breathtakingly out of touch or breathtakingly arrogant!

[grahame]

Announcement: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-09/

Document: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-09/main-document.pdf

Closing Date: 28th June 2012

Some very interesting information and background there.  I haven't read (yet?) sufficiently deeply to spot any issues such as those raised by Ellendune, but the questions are certainly much more structured.

[eightf48544]

Herewith my rock in the pond attempt.

Scrap the lot and start with a fresh sheet of paper.

Commuter and Walk on Fares to regulated at RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) -2%.

Off peak to be at least 40% cheaper than Walk on.

Advanced down to TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company).

Standardised Off Peak times regulated, no silly ones like Inverness with a 30 minute evening peak which seems to be one train. TOC has to run two.

No cheaper splits or if a split is found that becomes the through fare.

Stop trying to run trains like planes, it doesn't work.

One not so far out: I would also like to see London type Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) fares in all conurbations for bus tram ferries heavy rail. Works well in Europe.

One fairly far out: Also perhaps consider where applicable an IC^▸ (Inter City) (Intercity)  fare and an RE^▸ (Religious Education) (Regional Express) fare for say journies over 75 miles. It seems to work well from Peterborough I've travelled on WAGN with my Gold Card off peak considerably cheaper than GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) for not much  longer journey time than a non stop  A4. Of course it means TOCS will have to do on train ticket checks. 

Of course, it would never work it's too simple.

[Phil]

Stop trying to run trains like planes, it doesn't work.

YES!!! All good stuff, but this in particular is something I've been banging on about for years. Couldn't agree more.

[JayMac]

Commuter and Walk on Fares to regulated at RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) -2%.
...
Off peak to be at least 40% cheaper than Walk on
...
Standardised Off Peak times regulated, no silly ones like Inverness
...
Also perhaps consider where applicable an IC^▸ (Inter City) (Intercity)  fare and an RE^▸ (Religious Education) (Regional Express) fare for say journies over 75 miles

That's all fares then, bar Advance Purchase?

Off Peak 40% less than Anytime? Bristol to London Anytime Return currently ^179. Less 40% makes the Off Peak fare ^107.40. Currently the Off Peak Return is ^64.50.

For your system to work, more regulated fares would be needed with all flows being repriced so that there aren't massive increases like the one I've highlighted. Govt stated aim is not to increase the scope of regulated fares from the current: Commuter fares, long distance Off Peaks and shorter distance Anytime Days.

Not sure your system could be revenue neutral without Anytime fares decreasing and Off Peak increasing.

Off Peak times are already regulated. An Off Peak fare must be available on longer distance journeys no later than 1030 Mon-Fri and all day weekends. Except for journeys out of London where operators are permitted to restrict their use between 15.00 and 19.00 Monday to Friday.  The Inverness example you mention is a restriction to an unregulated fare, the CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) to certain destinations. Understandably if you want all walk-up fares regulated then this restriction would be removed. But the ability of TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to manage demand and overcrowding is likely reduced, as they wont be able to deviate from a standard definition of off peak. Barring people from making shorter journeys in the evening on CDRs actually makes sense. It frees up space for longer distance passengers who's journey may be more time critical than those on a short distance Day Return.

We already have price competition on flows with more than one operator. To have an IC fare and a RE fare means there will necessarily have to be an IC train and a RE train on that flow. In many places that just wouldn't be practical.

So, sorry. Some nice (ish) ideas but certainly not simple!

[Btline]

Right, let's AXE evening peak restrictions on Standard Class fares that only serve to fleece commuters and cause an unnecessary stampede to the barriers at 7pm. I once turned up at Kings Cross at around half three and was told it was the evening peak so I would have to wait over 3 HOURS to get a train - the time of my journey! Bewildered commuters stared on, barred from the platforms, fuming that trains at 3.45pm etc were leaving half empty.

Make all singles half the price of a return. It's shocking how people are conned with this.

Axe all break of journeys. Make it simpler.

All tickets valid on that day only. Simpler. Axe period returns. It won't cost you more, as a single costs half a return.

All tickets refundable. Axe the ^10 "admin fee" which is daylight robbery.

If a cheaper split ticket combination is discovered, that AUTOMATICALLY becomes the cheaper fare.

Axe all the different railcards. It cost ^50 for a National Railcard. Old people, students disabled etc can buy it for ^25.

One website ONLY to buy tickets. All fares are available at the same price at the ticket office and on TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).

Those ridiculous Anytime fares from Manchester should be axed down to something affordable.

Guards should not sell tickets on lines where there are ticket offices. Penalty fare.

Smart card ticketing rolled out to UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

Pay as you go zones in Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, Bristol, Leeds and Cardiff.

[JayMac]

I once turned up at Kings Cross at around half three and was told it was the evening peak so I would have to wait over 3 HOURS to get a train - the time of my journey! Bewildered commuters stared on, barred from the platforms, fuming that trains at 3.45pm etc were leaving half empty.

Hyperbole again Btline? You should have only been told that you couldn't buy or travel with a Super Off Peak ticket. Plenty of people would've been able to travel at 1545 with an Off Peak ticket. Not stood around, bewildered. 

The evening peak at King's Cross is different (or non-existent) depending on destination and ticket type held. It is not a blanket 1500-1900.

It's only Super Off Peak Tickets on East Coast that are barred from KGX between 1500-1900. Identical to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s Super Off Peak from Paddington.

For all destinations except York* Off Peak tickets are only barred between 1558-1746.

As for First Capital Connect from Kings Cross, their evening peak for stations to Cambridge and Peterborough is 1730-1830.



*For York there is no evening peak out of Kings Cross on East Coast on an Off Peak Return. York gets this special treatment because of competition from Grand Central.

[paul7575]

Surely by definition, commuters are a regular travellers, and highly unlikely to be travelling on restricted tickets?  So unless it just happens to be their first day why would they be bewildered? 

(Unless, like much of the media, commuter is thought to be synonymous with passenger?)

Paul

[ellendune]

Can I remind people that we need to be realistic in our responses.  I am sure we would all want fares to be halved, but if we say that then DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are hardly likely to listen.

Here are some questions to think about:

1) Should TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) be encouraged to markey TOC only fares on routes where there is competition (or is this already happening enough)?

2) If the did should there be any relationship between the Any TOC fare and the highest TOC only fare?

3) Should there be more regulation on routes where there is no competition (e.g. by comparison to simialr journeys where there is competition).

[grahame]

Consultation closes today.  Messy one to "publish" inputs, as it's 16 pages of web form.   However, here are some of my extra inputs with a clue as to what the question was 

[part time seasons] We're totally missing any frequent user incentive here on the scale of a season ticket for people who travel frequently, but from / to different destinations.   Personally my mileage is high but I may be in Bristol, then Lymington, then Liverpool, then Cambridge.   If the journey was on one line, I would get a season ticket and a 50% reduction over standard fares, but as it is I have to pay full whack every time

With smart automatic ticketing, a "Silver card" costing 500 pounds a year could give a 30% discount off all fares - perhaps replacing the season ticket for many and closing these gaps. (Am flexible on the figures - making a point of principle)

[can you be flexible if offered and inducement] Yes - often practical for me / most of the group. BUT in some circumastances, times are dictated by customers and there's a limit to how much earlier I will travel to the / how much later I will travel back where an appointment is fixed in time

[what would persuade you to use trains at other times?] I live in a town where there are no trains between 07:17 and 19:11.  If there were trains in between, I would use them (that's taking rail rather than road to leave my town).   If you want to look this us - Melksham, Wilts - population around 22000 so not a small place :-(

[Can your staff be flexible / question for employers] We run a hotel ... and we can only be flexible with hours to some degree; we need staff physically on duty to serve breakfast at breakfast time ....

Help level out peaks / make better use of shoulder trains.  Also avoid overcrowding of current shoulder trains such as 19:30 out of Paddington.

On the TransWilts line, with an appropriate service in the next franchise, there will be an opportunity to get fares per train right from the start, so there will be no users upset by surges

[should advanced tickets be changable prior to departure] With a fee, OK, it's fair.   Without a fee it would be an admin nightmare where everyone in the know would book a best guess and then change frequently. 

There is a problem with current advanced fares in that many people (especially overseas visitors / English as second language) don't understand the terms and conditions.   Should the ticket name be changed to "tethered" so that this is clear?

"Next available train" dispensation should also apply to other public transport delays - for example if the connecting bus (often run by the same company as the trains) is late or cancelled.

There is a strong case for average fare levels to reflect average prices or salaries (per mile).  You talk about fairness elsewhere; this would be fair.  Some of the current "lower yield" services such as the TransWilts are low yield because of the low fare levels, and this levelling out would lessen cross-subsidy.

Train operating companies should be required to offer the lowest priced ticketting for the journey being made, even if it involves multiple tickets for a single journey or a ticket that allows travel to a further station.  The current system of limiting offerings sometimes results in institutaionalised lying - if I ask for "the cheapest way to Chippenham on the next train" at Paddington I am sold a single ticket rather than London to Didcot and Didcot to Chippenham, which is often cheaper and is valid.  Ideally, such split ticket anomolies should be worked out of the system so this becomes a moot point.

[how can we save on manned ticket offices] Don't sell tickets - let people swipe in and out, let them book online and check in through automated gate with a unique code.  Much to be learned from TfL^» (Transport for London - about), national express coaches and airlines.
 
Especially important where there is no booking office / machine available at the station.  I live in a town of 22000 and I have to travel 6 miles to buy a rail ticket.  CAN buy walkup fares on the train on the day, but advanced have to be ordered a week ahead by post.

See http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-09