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Author Topic: 'Outrage over rail fare fine' for Exmouth to Exeter journey  (Read 45340 times)
Chris from Nailsea
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« on: April 12, 2012, 16:23:08 »

From the Exmouth Journal:

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A Littleham social worker has complained after she and her friends were fined for fare dodging on a train between Exmouth and Exeter.

Karen Fereday, of Littleham Road, says the incident happened when she and two friends caught a 6.51pm train on a Saturday night.

They expected to pay on the train, but did not see a conductor, so, along with passengers from other stations, went to pay on arrival at Exeter.

However, Karen says she and the other Exmouth passengers were taken to one side and fined on the spot for fare dodging, even though they had intended to pay.

There is an automated ticket machine at Exmouth station, but Karen says she did not think to use this as she had always previously paid the conductor, and, as the main station building was closed for the evening, she had parked her car in the car park and walked straight on to the platform without going past it.

In response, First Great Western says that passengers from Exmouth are expected to use the automated machine, and that there was a conductor onboard the train, although Karen says they did not make themselves known to passengers.

Karen said: ^I think it^s absolutely outrageous. The whole train was piling up to pay on the platform but only people from Exmouth got fined. It looked like a set up because there were four penalty officers there ^ it looked like they knew they were going to issue those penalties. There was a group of three teachers on the train with us, and they were in tears. They were so upset, and we were incredulous.^

A First Great Western spokesman said: ^The ticket machine was operational at Exmouth, and there was a conductor on board the service between Exmouth and Exeter. In this situation, the onus is on the customer to purchase a ticket at their origin station. If they don^t buy a ticket, they then have a second opportunity to purchase a ticket by seeking out the conductor on board.^
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TonyK
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 17:21:58 »

Next time, tell them you got on at Topsham. If the conductor says "No you didn't", ask why he didn't check your ticket or offer to sell you one. I don't condone or encourage fare evasion, but would it have been too much work to make a PA (Public Address) announcement as the train pulls out of Exmouth that all passengers without tickets had better buy one? I think it petty for FGW (First Great Western) to slap excess charges on folk f it is possible to get to the platform without passing a TVM (Ticket Vending Machine).
The longest time the train is between stations is 5 minutes. The conductor won't be able to issue many tickets in that time, before he has to return to open the doors. I have experience of similar when starting at Redland to go to Taunton. I sought out the conductor, but by the time we got to Temple Meads, he still hadn't managed to sell me a ticket. So I had to queue up and buy one, watching one train I could have caught depart. Annoying.
However, ticket machines will begin to proliferate, or we'll have ITSO standard kit to read contactless cards. The railway is always last to adapt to new technology.
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 17:34:28 »

I'm less sympathetic. They'd have walked past big yellow notices warning them very clearly about the consequences of boarding without a valid ticket. This attitude of "it's someone else's fault I didn't pay my fare and got fined so I'll run off and whine to the local press" is one I find incredibly irksome and tedious. Too bad a group of three teachers was "in tears". They boarded a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station and chose not to purchase a ticket from the ticket machine that was provided. Them's the rules. Take some personal responsibility for a change.

No doubt these people would be all for teenagers in hoodies without tickets being fined, but as soon as their own personal actions come back to bite them on the bum it's not their fault, an honest mistake etc etc. Grow up.
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JayMac
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 17:44:32 »

Next time, tell them you got on at Topsham.

Please don't offer advice like this. All it takes is for a plain clothes RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) to have been travelling and you now face, not a Penalty Fare, but a possible prosecution for fare evasion. Besides, Topsham has a TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) and is a Penalty Fare station. Lying to an RPI can have all sorts of repercussions.

Not walking past a TVM to get to the platform is also no defence. There are many many stations that have multiple entrances. If ticket facilities exist at that station then they should be used, regardless of their location.

Being prosecuted for a byelaw offence will cost considerably more than a Penalty Fare. Being prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act can see you, again, paying a lot more, but also land you with a criminal record.

Simple rule. Board a Penalty Fare train from a Penalty Fare station without a valid ticket or other authority to travel - expect a Penalty Fare.
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 17:58:53 »

The only time where it is acceptable to board without a ticket when issueing facility's are available is if you hold a disabled railcard, also worth pointing out that not wanting to use te machine because you want to buy from a person is not a valid reason, if this was a planned blitz it will be because too many tickets were being sold onboard which in a penalty zone should be nearly nil
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noddingdonkey
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 18:26:16 »

I do believe this service is booked to be a three carriage with no corridor connection. I would guess then that the conductor was at the rear of the train and the people who didn't see a conductor onboard were at the very front of the train.
Now, I wouldn't suggest for one moment that these people deliberately noted where the conductor was and walked to the next carriage on the off chance he wouldn't get to them but it would explain why they weren't approached when on the train. I would have asked them why they didn't approach the guard on the platform before the train left and asked if they could buy a ticket onboard. That approach always works in my experience and the guards are normally very grateful for such honesty.
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bobm
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 19:23:54 »

I am not sure what the penalty fare arrangements are in Cornwall but I joined an all stations service from Penzance to Plymouth at Bodmin Parkway today. It was virtually full and standing and the guard made an announcement that as his machine was broken he couldn't sell tickets and anyone needing them would have to buy them at the gate line at Plymouth or on their onward service.  I boarded a London service on the adjacent platform and although I had a ticket it wasn't checked before I got off at Westbury. That service normally comes into Platform 1 at Paddington so it's possible some people got a free ride.

Shame a ticket machine couldn't have been despatched on a down service to meet him along the way and at least save some of the lost revenue.
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 23:09:38 »

Unfortunately not everyone is aware of the penalty fares scheme, and some people will just not read the big yellow signs, and assume that they can pay on the train.

Ignorance is not a proper defence, but it is all too common.
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 06:11:35 »

I have mixed feelings about this but must stress that I am against deliberate fare evasion.

On my daily journey, which starts at thatcham, there is a TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) but this only accepts cards - according to FGW (First Great Western) the cash facility has been disabled (at a lot of stations in our region) due to vandalism,

I'm not trying to open up an old argument here but just stating passengers sometimes have every intention of buying a ticket at their start station but aren't able to through no fault of their own.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 06:25:23 by BerkshireBugsy » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 06:25:08 »

They can check the logs on the self serve machine to see if it was working
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BerkshireBugsy
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2012, 06:29:15 »

They can check the logs on the self serve machine to see if it was working

That may be the case but if the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) has the cash facility permanently disabled this precludes a passenger , who does not have the means to buy using a card, from buying a ticket at source.
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paul7575
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2012, 09:30:00 »

The only time where it is acceptable to board without a ticket when issueing facility's are available is if you hold a disabled railcard...

Are you really saying there that holding a disabled railcard generally exempts you from buying tickets at an open ticket office or TVM (Ticket Vending Machine)?   Does that mean that all the money spent adapting ticket offices for DDA» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) compliance was not actually necessary? 

Paul
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2012, 11:02:35 »

There is guidance issued to staff that says discretion should be shown to Disabled Persons if they find it difficult to buy tickets in the normal manner. This isn't a blanket exception but TOC (Train Operating Company)'s individual policy may go further.

A quote from guidance issued to staff:

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Disabled Persons discretionary regulations

Travel without a valid ticket / excess fares

In general, disabled customers are subject to the same regulations as non-disabled persons and should be encouraged to obtain travel tickets before boarding the train.

Staff should exercise discretion when dealing with a disabled customer who does not have a ticket that is valid for the journey they are undertaking. If a disabled customer has been unable to purchase a ticket for a reason relating to their disability (for example a blind person could not see to use a Ticket Vending Machine, or someone with mobility difficulties could climb the stairs to access a ticket office) they should be offered the appropriate ticket for immediate travel and any relevant discounts.
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paul7575
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 11:46:13 »

There is guidance issued to staff that says discretion should be shown to Disabled Persons if they find it difficult to buy tickets in the normal manner. This isn't a blanket exception but TOC (Train Operating Company)'s individual policy may go further.

Thanks, that seems what you'd reasonably expect. 

Relex109's post OTOH (On The Other Hand) did imply something slightly different to your quoted info.

Paul
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 14:07:58 »

You do realise that some disabilitys make it difficult or even impossible to stand in a busy line of people waiting to get a ticket from a window or tvm
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