Bristol 50?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Last Saturday, I attended a RailFuture meeting in Trowbridge - organised by their Severnside Branch - and caught up with a handful of the very knowledgable people there (would have stayed longer - but I had another meeting!).   Very interesting, useful and positive presentation by Richard Gamble - portfolio holder for public transport at Wiltshire Council (separate post to follow) - and discussion turned to an idea "Bristol 50" - more localism / local control in the next franchise for areas of at least 50 miles each way from a major City / centre.  Much of that was a line of questioning from some of the Severnside folks who are very fully connected, and some have affiliations which are so strong that I take what they say with a pinch of salt.

50 miles from Bristol (as the crow flies) takes you to Taunton, Yeovil, Salisbury, Swindon, Cheltenham, Abergavenny, up all the Welsh Valleys, and to Bridgend.   As the train travels, it takes you to Taunton, Frome, Warminster, Pewsey (?), Swindon, Cheltenham, Pontypool Road, Cardiff Central, and a few local stations out from there.

Thoughts?

[Btline]

No, too far, especially as it overlaps with other major cities eg Cardiff. Would "Cardiff 50" include Bristol?

You can't pluck a random milage out of thin air.

[anthony215]

Sounds ok considering I live in Bridgend.

Although I am still unsure about it all being controlled from Bristol and would the WG want anyone interfeering?

[grahame]

Ok ... to be fair to the people talking about this, south Wales wasn't brought up and I would be pretty sure that "Cardiff 50" and "Bristol 50" would interface along the Severn, notwisthstanding the comment said to be that "the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) wouldn't go with less than 50 miles".  After all, the DfT don't do this sort of thing in south Wales - they leave it to WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about).

Edit to add ... extended comment on scope and effect at http://www.wellho.net/mouth/3699_Bristol-50-Bristol-25-.html

[eightf48544]

Very intereting thought, I've often considered that most of the country should have PTEs^▸ (Passenger Transport Executive) which I suppose this is form of although presumably only delaing with rail which rather limits it.

However I wonder about the 50 miles.

Taunton seems fine as southern boundary but wonder about Yeovil. It would be interesting to know how much rail travel there is from Yeovil to Bristol rather than to Exeter and Salisbury eastwards.

Similarly is Cheltenham too far North? Again it would be interesting to know flows to Birmingham compared to Bristol. So possibly Gloucester.

Now Eastwards seems to me to be a problem Swindon and Salisbury seem too far they also put Melksham at risk from Bristol based organisation which presumably wouldn't be too interested in the Salisbury Trowbridge Swindon flows you often mention. It would also by the same argument be not too interested in the Cheltenham Swindon flows via the Golden Valley.

Therfore, I would suggest Chippenham on the Mainline and Trowbridge/Westbury on the Southampton line. Unless the  Bradford North curve was reinstated and stopping service from Bristol/Bath to Swindon initiated.

For Melksham you really want a Salisbury Swindon half circle maybe with spurs to Yeovil and Gloucester. It also seems to me that maybe you should complete the circle and include Basingstoke and Reading.

However without really detailed passenger flow statistics it is diffcult to work out what area and therefore stations a Bristol based PTE should cover.

 

[grahame]

Ah ... but with the services you need to look at operational sense as well as flows, and to ensure you don't leave places stranded.  I don't think anyone really wants to end up with services that ceases at an operationally inconvenient station, nor leaves little stubby orphans (Westbury to Warminster to serve Dilton Marsh, Newbury to Bedwyn to serve Kintbury, Hungerford and Bedwyn).  Looking at the south and east edges, which I know better than the others ...

a) It seems illogical to run a service out from the Bristol area and stop it one station short of the major Wiltshire city of Salisbury, especially as that city is less than 50 miles (crow distance) from Bristol. And doubly especially as the next 50 mile zone - Solent 50 - would cover the area from Portsmouth to Salisbury (42 miles).  There's no statement that all services at a station would be part of the scheme, so an edge overlap and in places an opportunity to link through would be sensible and joined up thinking.

b) It is logical for services to run beyond the 50 in some case.   Note my "at least" in the original post. That puts the whole of Heart of Wessex to Weymouth into Bristol 50 (and perhaps the whole of Southampton to Weymouth into Solent 50).

c) Swindon again is the logical point in the east. There is a very considerable flow from Bristol / Bath to Swindon, and you get joined up journeys and operations too.

You ask how interested a Bristolcentric group will be in TransWilts rather than linking Swindon to Salisbury.  Well - Wiltshire's Unitary Council is very active and interested in supporting rail so they won't let it become totally Bristlcentric.  And consider this - a train every 2 hours from West Wiltshire to Chippenham means a train every hour through that blooming urban settlement of Melksham - every one of which can connect (at Trowbridge or Chippenham) to Bath and Bristol, which are major destinations.  44 minutes by rail, Melksham to Bristol. Or 99 minutes by bus.  And we'll produce a pocket timetable / .pdf locally to ensure that people know they have this highly effective and useable service.

[ellendune]

Don't forget the considerable traffic Swindon to Cheltenham.  That makes Cheltenham the logical northern limit regardless of the volume of Bristol Cheltenham traffic.

 

[Btline]

Sounds promising. What are the neighbouring 50s?

Solent, Cardiff...

B'ham? Exeter? Reading?

Could a through train run from the Bristol 50 area to the Solent 50 area?

[eightf48544]

I can see that set up as you say Grahme there could be a lot of merit in having 50 miles (or longer if logical) for groups of services based on a centre.

In answer to Btlines question I can see that you could have RB (Regional Bus) type services stopping all stations to the boundary station and RE^▸ (Religious Education) (Regional Express services) stopping at major towns on the route and crossing into the next 50 zone (or zones even).

Thus Bristol - South Coast, Exeter, Birmingham
Cheltenham/Gloucester - Reading/London
Maybe even Weymouth Swindon Reading London

For stock working maybe the RBs could work across zones if that gives a good utilistaion of the fleet. If I remember rightly this was the way stopping services on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) were run just after electrification when a non corridor 30X unit would set out from Euston and run all stations to Manchester via Northampton and Birmingham and possibly the Styal loop rather than Stockport.

Then ICs^▸ (Inter City) Intercities become just that Bristol Taunton Exeter Plymouth
Bristol Cheltenham Birmingham Manchester/Leeds/Newcastle/ Scotland
Bristol Newport Cardiff/Swnsea?
Bristol/Bath Reading London

[JayMac]

Bristol 50, Bristol Metro, Greater Bristol/Avon PTE^▸ (Passenger Transport Executive), Bristol Light Rail, Bristol this, Bristol that....

I appreciate the campaigning for improved services, but it's not that much fun wading through all the different proposals.

How about an umbrella group? One song sheet, one song.....

[eightf48544]

Agree with you BNM. It really needs to be a Transport for Bristol 50 (TFB50 vice TFL^▸ (Transport for London)) to cover the 50 mile radius plus buses and ferries in the harbour and any other public transport in the area.

Then it could organise the Metro (S Bahn), RB stopping services to 50 boundary and co-ordiante RE^▸ (Religious Education)/IC^▸ (Inter City) services  plus all the feeder bus services.

But then that would go against DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) policy of competition in public transport you can't have an integrated system it's contrary to the free market.

[grahame]

Don't take the "Bristol 50" name as anything more than a convenient label I have used to describe the approach to how the rail services could be grouped.

The competition issue is an interesting one; do we really see competition on urban or greater-urban rail anywhere in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)? Perhaps we did on London -> Gatwick and London -> Reading (in Thames Trains v lesser Greater Western) prior to them coming under the same operator.

[eightf48544]

Re competition on urban rail.

Reading London wasn't really competiton as I believe it was the same fare for either Thames or  GW^▸ (Great Western) so you just caught the first fast train to Padd.

As to Gatwick as far as I remeber the Gatwick Express was dearer than NSE^▸ (Network South East). However I came back through Gatwick one Sunday night purchased an NSE ticket with discount to boundary Zone 6 on my Gold card and travelled on the Gatwick Express, no problem, as there wasn't an NSE train at that time.