Devon Metro (railway network around Exeter) - merged posts, ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[eightf48544]

it's a really interesting operational point turning trains round at through stations. Ideally I agree that trains should trminate at stations where there are the most onward connections so Exeter St Davids, Swindon, Westbury, Salisbury.

Idealy you want a trminating train to stop unload and then proceed in teh same direction to a turnback siding.

However the problem is that we lack the infrastructure to take the trains through the station to a siding so they are not occupying platform space turning round.

A good example of where this works is Cardiff where you gt up to 3 trains waiting on paltform 1 the one nearest the middle is loading and the others draw forward to load in turn.

The other way of doing it is to run teh stock to another destination Thus some Exemouth trains go through to Barnstable or Paignton, and you get is it Great MAlvern Brighton or some such which is series of service tagged together. The problem with that is if there is a problem with the stock you inconvinience a large number of people on differrent legs of the service. If it run as 2 or three separate trains you only use one leg. Unofrtunately though there is not enough stock to do that.

The other way of doing is to termante one stop past your main station.  A classic example being the Eastbound S Bahn service from Dresden along the Elbe which serves Bad Schandau but terminates just before the Czech border at Schona whcih is a tiny place with two open platforms and a turnback siding. I know I've changed there coming from Decin on railbus with a Schoneswockende ticket it's a long story but because it was originaly Germany you can do a lot of Czech lines in Eastern Bohemia with a German ticket.

What about terminating the Salisbury's at Andover,  although that would require addtional track work at Andover to use the third paltform from the West and depart to the West. Plus it would require more stock run to Andover as opposed to turning round at Warminister.

Also as far as the Trans Wilts you are stuck with Daft not wanting to admit that they dropped a clanger when they specified the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) franchise and dropped the service levels compared to Wessex.

 

[grahame]

it's a really interesting operational point turning trains round at through stations. Ideally I agree that trains should trminate at stations where there are the most onward connections so Exeter St Davids, Swindon, Westbury, Salisbury.

[snip]

What about terminating the Salisbury's at Andover,  although that would require addtional track work at Andover to use the third paltform from the West and depart to the West. Plus it would require more stock run to Andover as opposed to turning round at Warminister.
 

Salisbury station is "good" as it stands for some further trains terminating from the West.  And if you look at the station map on the National Rail site, it shows 4 platforms ... 2,3,4 and 6.  Platform 1 remains in situ as a through track / siding and I would have thought it could take trains again without too much hassle (did I read that this was going to happen somewhere?).   Platform 5 is a west facing bay / terminal platform which is sometimes used for stabling stock.  I would have thought it's quite a good candidate for terminating and starting passenger trains as appropriate from / to the Westbury and Yeovil Junction lines.

When talking about joining up services, the "candidates" as Salisbury are the hourly Romsey via Romsey and Southampton stoppers, and the TransWilts service.  This would give a some very interesting services such as regular airport service direct from Swindon, Chippenham, Trowbridge, Warminster, Westbury and Melksham.  Two issues exist with this idea - the fact that the services to be linked and deep into different franchise territories, and timetabling across a service of main lines having to co-ordinate the bay platform at Swindon (eased pressure from 2016?), the single track from Thingley junction, the single track through Chandler's Ford, and the lack of a terminating bay at Romsey.

Andover is an interesting thought that's a new one on me.   Initial reactions - "where's the traffic" and "the two ideas above seem more practical and useful" ... but then again I've never before thought about Andover in this way, and you may have something.  Grateley and Andover serve the military areas in South Wiltshire at Ludgershall and Tidworth, after all, and there's gong to be heavy traffic for Lyneham from 2013, which the TransWilts runs quite close to.

Yes, I have noticed incoming terminators at the east end of Salisbury from Waterloo   

[paul7575]

Salisbury station is "good" as it stands for some further trains terminating from the West.  And if you look at the station map on the National Rail site, it shows 4 platforms ... 2,3,4 and 6.  Platform 1 remains in situ as a through track / siding and I would have thought it could take trains again without too much hassle (did I read that this was going to happen somewhere?).   

Yes,  you did read it.   Platform 1 was listed as an NR^» (Network Rail - home page) Discretionary Fund item, however between the 2010 Wessex route plan and the 2011 update it seems to have been cancelled, without any explanation at all - being unusually marked as 'project complete'.  I suspect that when push came to shove there wasn't the need for it just yet, but all it seems to require is full (ie passenger quality) signalling at the London end - I was told a while back that they thought its main use would be for starting morning peak services towards London, saving the double shunt to get from the depot to P2... 

In principle, with P1 reinstated, Salisbury could be a far more flexible station than Southampton, because it could be operated with P1 and P4 used for most though services, and the island used for services terminating and reversing, like at Southampton.  Having terminating services in the middle of the layout avoids any crossing moves - and as a bonus P5 and P6 would also be available.

Paul 

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

back onto Devon specifically exeter, i think that the problem is actually at st davids because the west of england line only connects to platforms 1 and 3 ... there is one solution which doesnt involve a major relay....  remember the  Penryn passing loop could something like this work? remember 3 tracks used to run between platforms 3 and 1

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

possible plan

[REVUpminster]

I am new so bear with me. I have looked at the pocket timetables for 2019 which do not seem to be any different to now. Can someone please tell me what has happened to the proposed Devon Metro (and new services to Cornwall) as I understood they would still come in in January even though the 802's would not use an accelerated timetable until May..


If there is a Devon Metro thread elsewhere, please move this post.

[grahame]

I am new so bear with me. I have looked at the pocket timetables for 2019 which do not seem to be any different to now. Can someone please tell me what has happened to the proposed Devon Metro (and new services to Cornwall) as I understood they would still come in in January even though the 802's would not use an accelerated timetable until May..


If there is a Devon Metro thread elsewhere, please move this post.

Welcome to the forum!

So many subjects interact with each other that it's difficult to know what to post where - but we're a very welcoming place and if it feels the best place to post, it probably is.  And one or two of our team can merge / split topics as they run so that make for a good searchable archive later on, and keep all discussions on a topic together.  Anyway - enough of the technicalities ...

January 2019 public timetable changes have been put on hold - and I wouldn't like to bet on any particular new date just at present.   That hold is on all changes.   Newly timed long distance trains from London to the West Country (and elsewhere) were planned such that they leave paths for other more local trains to run in between them, thus a new timetable for local trains.  If the long distance trains are still running to the old timings, the local ones cannot run to the new, as the railway doesn't have boundless capacity - in fact it's getting pretty full in places.

You may ask "could there be a January 2019 AND a later timetable change".    That's not happening ...

a) There aren't enough timetable planners to work it out and check it

b) It would mean two rather than one set of changes to the local services - and each time there's a change, there's always someone who has a good use for the existing times - however peculiar - and will be pretty put out by the changes

c) Extra trains haven't been rolling in to the Devon and Cornwall area as quickly as would have been hoped. Delays on "Castle class" conversions, delays on Crossrail, delays in being able to run substitute trains into Portsmouth Harbour so that the 158s can be sent to Exeter ...

There will be a few January changes - mostly in operational / working timetables.   For example, St Phillip's Marsh won't have any HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to service and IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train) will be running up Filton Bank, the remaining stabling lines at Old Oak will be gone ...

[REVUpminster]

I cannot see capacity being a problem, may shortage of rolling stock, as there is no increase in the Exmouth branch. There are already the Paignton - Newton abbot services. The overtaking at Dawlish Warren would have to stop but this would improve timings and the locals could follow the expresses improving connections for Teignmouth and Dawlish. There would be slightly worse for Paignton but with a half hour service not that bad.

Two coach trains could operate, every half hour, until more stock becomes available. I know all the 150/1's have gone.

[grahame]

Two coach trains could operate, every half hour, until more stock becomes available. I know all the 150/1's have gone.

I'll leave it for others to answer for Devon track capacity, etc.     On a technicallity, 150/126 was still around last week and I believe is still with us for a few more months.  Delight to have it on the 17:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central (20:47) last Tuesday - 9th October.  Think there might be a second one around too - not sure; most have gone.

[SandTEngineer]

There is no more capacity on the Exmouth branch.  The only thing to do to make it more frequent than the current 30min interval service would to be to add an additional crossing loop between Topsham and Exmouth.  No chance.

Elsewhere, Exeter St.Davids station is already becoming a capacity constraint.  If you add additional services there would have to be a lot more platform sharing, and that is frowned upon at present due to the risks involved.  Can be cured by adding mid-platform signals.  No chance.

I make no appologies concerning my negative comments about capacity improvements.  Seen it all tried before and fall apart because its put in the too difficult (and expensive) box.

Edit to add: I think in a past life I was once asked to look at capacity on the Exmouth branch and came up with the idea of having two parallel single lines betwen Topsham and Exmouth and removing (saving) a set of points at Topsham in turn.  Cheaper first cost than a new crossing loop, and less long term ongoing maintenance and renewal liability and hence cost.  Now then, what happened to that idea.....

[REVUpminster]

The Devon Metro does not include, at the moment, extra capacity on the Exmouth line which would require another passing loop. All the Exmouth trains would go to Paignton giving the half hour service to Paignton. The Barnstaple service every hour would run to East sidings (I think the name should be changed to Morrisons) to reverse.

Example times could be Barnstaple-Exeter Central arrives at xx.10 at St Davids then to Exeter Central, with time to tip out, then empty to Morrisons to reverse. Paignton- Exmouth arrives at St Davids at xx.15 and xx45 leaves at xx.20 and xx.50. Waterloo departs as now xx.25. It would maintain the existing connections.

The times are tight but I believe it is all computer controlled, or advised, now.

[SandTEngineer]

The Devon Metro does not include, at the moment, extra capacity on the Exmouth line which would require another passing loop. All the Exmouth trains would go to Paignton giving the half hour service to Paignton. The Barnstaple service every hour would run to East sidings (I think the name should be changed to Morrisons) to reverse.

Example times could be Barnstaple-Exeter Central arrives at xx.10 at St Davids then to Exeter Central, with time to tip out, then empty to Morrisons to reverse. Paignton- Exmouth arrives at St Davids at xx.15 and xx45 leaves at xx.20 and xx.50. Waterloo departs as now xx.25. It would maintain the existing connections.

The times are tight but I believe it is all computer controlled, or advised, now.

Some good points there, but, the signalling at Exeter is not computer controlled, its a manually controlled (but electrical) system.  One of the big constraints is the Red Cow level crossing at St.Davids.  This already gets closed for significant times each day and adding to that won't help at all.  You can fiddle with train timings quite a lot but end up with the same result.  Ultimately its track/signalling/platform capacity that becomes the biggest constraint.

[REVUpminster]

Still the same crossing closures as now for the Waterloo and Barnstaple services.

I agree about the crossing but it's about time it was replaced by a bridge that could rise alongside the tracks using railway land and the car park crossing the tracks at a suitable height North of the existing crossing.

Exeter is expected to grow by about 20,000 people in the next ten years to 140,000. Paignton (pop.50,000) and Torquay (66,000) have become commuter towns for Exeter.

[Red Squirrel]

...it's about time it was replaced by a bridge

Maybe so. These things can take a surprising length of time to come to fruition though, even when there is a compelling case: https://goo.gl/maps/zENN4D5BuyC2

[lympstone_commuter]

Edit to add: I think in a past life I was once asked to look at capacity on the Exmouth branch and came up with the idea of having two parallel single lines betwen Topsham and Exmouth and removing (saving) a set of points at Topsham in turn.  Cheaper first cost than a new crossing loop, and less long term ongoing maintenance and renewal liability and hence cost.  Now then, what happened to that idea.....

How interesting. Did it really work out cheaper? I appreciate that the current Exe Estuary trail is mostly built (I think) on what was railway land acquired for a possible second track, but I'm thinking of having to add another track over the River Clyst bridge between Topsham and Exton, as well as several underbridges where the railway crosses lanes and streams.