'First Great Western - Do You Listen To Your Customers?'

[whole diary]

[bobm]

Those cards which you pre-load with funds are marketed as "credit cards" and they require authorisation in the same way as Solo or Electron.

[mjones]

or there are also the huge Penalty Fare notices at Exeter St David's that mention that you risk a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) by travelling in First class with a std ticket? I know the PF posters are not very obvious being huge and bright yellow and black..... I don't see what the gripe is here? like i said, are you saying that he should just have been allowed to travel in FC^‡(resolve) on a std ticket? a certain amount of responsibility does lie with the passenger here, if you want to upgrade on the train then the done thing is to find the guard and make yourself known not just sit there and hope for the best, this is indicated by the notices in first class as well, if it was hot in a certain carriage then move to another std coach.

No-one has suggested anyone travel for free. Why is ticketless travel even being mentioned? The passenger was trying to pay!

The 'gripe' as you put it is the rail industry's ability to shoot itself in the foot its approach to customer services. This situation would have any half-decent marketing or sales manager shaking their head in despair.  We have a customer wanting to buy an expensive product, giving the industry over 100 pounds additional revenue that it would not otherwise have had. Yet, for some not particularly convincing technical reasons, not only was the sale lost but they end up in an argument with the customer! And instead of thinking how might that lost business opportunity have been avoided, we have people here muttering about what penalties might have been imposed on the customer for having the temerity to do something slightly unusual. Doesn't the industry want to increase its revenues?



Edit note: Quote marks fixed. Chris. 

[paul7575]

He was lucky to be given the opportunity to upgrade on the train as upgrades should be done before boarding the train, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) stations have information posters that say which cards are valid and it clearly says on the ticket office windows that "SOLO AND ELECTRON CARDS ARE NOT VALID FOR ON TRAIN PURCHASES", now i am making an assumption here, and that assumption is that this individual had a solo or electron card which can only be used at a terminal with a live connection as they do not guarentee payment without authorisation...

Here's a hypothesis.  The bank that issues the card clearly informs its customers that the card is only valid for online transactions.  Those customers then realise that it might be a fairly good way of avoiding payment once they are on a train. 

I expect if there's anyone posting who works in revenue will tell us that this 'not particularly convincing technical reason' is pretty widely known to a subset of passengers, who make full use of it whenever they can...

Paul

[Andy W]

He was lucky to be given the opportunity to upgrade on the train as upgrades should be done before boarding the train, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) stations have information posters that say which cards are valid and it clearly says on the ticket office windows that "SOLO AND ELECTRON CARDS ARE NOT VALID FOR ON TRAIN PURCHASES", now i am making an assumption here, and that assumption is that this individual had a solo or electron card which can only be used at a terminal with a live connection as they do not guarentee payment without authorisation...

Here's a hypothesis.  The bank that issues the card clearly informs its customers that the card is only valid for online transactions.  Those customers then realise that it might be a fairly good way of avoiding payment once they are on a train. 

I expect if there's anyone posting who works in revenue will tell us that this 'not particularly convincing technical reason' is pretty widely known to a subset of passengers, who make full use of it whenever they can...

Paul

Or another hypothysis - an 'enthusiastic' TM^‡(resolve)/Guard switches off the air conditioning in standard in the expectation that someone decides to move to first - bingo penalty / excess fare!! Only an hypothesis just as fancifull as yours.

Vacman - nobody expects the traveller not to pay the correct fare. If he has already boarded the train, as pointed out, he would reasonably expect to be able to continue to use the same payment method - there is nothing unreasonable in that expectation. I actually believe the TM acted sensibly in this case however FGW should ensure he is not in the position of not being able to accept the payment (s)he was offered - given it had already been previouslyaccepted.
Nor do I think it is unreasonable to expect to pay the TM/Guard when they perform the inspection - which,after all, it is their job to do. (I might point out that from my experience far too few do this).
I get on a train (rarely as I prefer Chiltern) at Pershore. There is no sales office or ticket machine there and you have to pay on the train. NOWHERE on the station that I have seen does it say Electron / Solo cards are not accepted on the trains.

MJones, spot on

[paul7575]

Here's a hypothesis.  The bank that issues the card clearly informs its customers that the card is only valid for online transactions.  Those customers then realise that it might be a fairly good way of avoiding payment once they are on a train. 

I expect if there's anyone posting who works in revenue will tell us that this 'not particularly convincing technical reason' is pretty widely known to a subset of passengers, who make full use of it whenever they can...

Paul

... Only an hypothesis just as fancifull as yours.

Try searching this forum (or any other rail forum) for 'electron solo'.  You are being naive if you don't think certain passengers see it as an advantage having a card that only works online...

Paul

[vacman]

At unstaffed stations there is an information poster, on which there is info on how to buy tickets and it has the same message as on booking office windows regarding solo and electron cards. Obviously when boarding at unmanned stations with no facilities then pax can upgrade on the train, but this is irrelevant in this story, it is not the guards job to run after tickets, it forms a very minor part of their duties. but it is the customers responsibility to ensure they have a valid ticket for the day, time class etc..... And yes things arent always black and white but in this situation the TM^‡(resolve) has acted properly and couldnt have done anything any different! For those of you on your soap box I'd be interested to hear how you would have dealt with the situation? Before blaming the technology then bear in mind that this is actually the fault of the banks, who now issue the same debit cards to everyone but some are online some offline and to the naked eye they are identical, where as before they would issue electron and solo as cards that were on line only! And it would be very difficult to have an on-line system on train.

[Andy W]

Here's a hypothesis.  The bank that issues the card clearly informs its customers that the card is only valid for online transactions.  Those customers then realise that it might be a fairly good way of avoiding payment once they are on a train. 

I expect if there's anyone posting who works in revenue will tell us that this 'not particularly convincing technical reason' is pretty widely known to a subset of passengers, who make full use of it whenever they can...

Paul

... Only an hypothesis just as fancifull as yours.

Try searching this forum (or any other rail forum) for 'electron solo'.  You are being naive if you don't think certain passengers see it as an advantage having a card that only works online...

Paul

So a guy sitting in a badly maintained carriage with useless air conditioning thinks I've got a Solo / Electron card so I'll go into first class and chance it - well if you didn't run inadequate rolling stock he wouldn't have had that chance.

And exactly where on Pershore station does it explain that Electron / Solo cards are not accepted on a train as per my previous post

Too many people on this forum are 'experts' who live in a world in which you expect your customers to be as knowledgeable as you are. They are not, they want to get from A to B efficiently paying the relevant price and trust the railway staff in that quest.

Every ticket office cheats every customer every time they request  'the cheapest ticket' to a destination and are not offered split ticketing if it is available. As far as I can see this is fraud on an industrial scale. Fix that.

[Southern Stag]

So a guy sitting in a badly maintained carriage with useless air conditioning thinks I've got a Solo / Electron card so I'll go into first class and chance it - well if you didn't run inadequate rolling stock he wouldn't have had that chance.

Sounds like in the case he didn't know but there are people who know that their card isn't excepted on board and get on the train without a ticket, presenting their card they know won't be accepted, hoping that they'll be let off.

[ellendune]

Sounds like in the case he didn't know but there are people who know that their card isn't excepted on board and get on the train without a ticket, presenting their card they know won't be accepted, hoping that they'll be let off.

I am sure there are people who do know - possibly becuase its been refused before.  But if I hadn't been reading these forums I would not have had a clue and I am sure most people who do not regularly pay for tickets on trains will not know this.  I now I recall my previous post of an experence on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) (not normally cited as the most popular operator). Not only did the TM^‡(resolve) only charge the excess for not having the railcard, but also found a means of phoning in to verify their solo card.  So it can be done. 

[Andy W]

At unstaffed stations there is an information poster, on which there is info on how to buy tickets and it has the same message as on booking office windows regarding solo and electron cards.

Wrong - I've just been down to Pershore Station to double check and there is no such message. In fact what it says is "There is no ticket buying facilities at this station. Most tickets for immediate travel can be bought from the on-board team .......
If you board a train without a ticket you may be charged a full single or return fare for your journey plus an additional charge ..."
So you can't buy a ticket at the station and can be penalised if you get on the train without a ticket .......... utterly abysmal.
There is no mention whatsoever regarding Solo / Electron cards.

[grahame]

At unstaffed stations there is an information poster, on which there is info on how to buy tickets and it has the same message as on booking office windows regarding solo and electron cards.

There is no sign at all with regards to purchase of tickets at Melksham station.  At the top of the station approach (I've just looked when passing - stopped the car on my way our from the station to look), there is a poster which includes the text "There are no ticket buying facilities available at this station. Most tickets for immediate travel can be bought from the onboard team. To buy railcards, Season tickets and all other tickets, the nearest alternative station in Trowbridge".  I fail to see how / where that explains that only certain of the payment methods accepted at stations will be accepted on the train, and I don't consider a sign that's about 100 yards from the station to be "at" the station.

There should be a clear sign at the station saying that you can get on the train and buy your ticket there.   If payment methods are going to be limited, it should clearly say in what way.  And that word MOST should be explained.

[mjones]

And those signs should be of a standardised design, that is very clear and distinct from all the other signs and posters one sees at a station, located in a prominant position where it is hard to miss even when in a rush and with lots of other passengers around; and the number of different signs you should have to read should be kept to a minimum.

With the recent discussions we've had here in mind I had a quick look at Wokingham station to see how easy it would be for a new or unfamilar passenger to realise they are in a  Penalty Fare zone. There are three different entrances, so you can very easily go straight past the booking office. At the platform 2 entrance, which is the other side of the tracks from the booking office, I noticed a single poster about Penalty Fares. This poster was amongst a group of advertising posters, in the same display cases, and didn't stand out at all. That really isn't good enough. Bear in mind that if the signs and lines for parking rules are not exactly compliant with the regulations then it is very easy to appeal a parking ticket. Some here are taking a parking enforcement attitude to rail travel, but without anything like the strict requirement for clear posting of the regulations.

[mjones]

Sounds like in the case he didn't know but there are people who know that their card isn't excepted on board and get on the train without a ticket, presenting their card they know won't be accepted, hoping that they'll be let off.

I am sure there are people who do know - possibly becuase its been refused before.  But if I hadn't been reading these forums I would not have had a clue and I am sure most people who do not regularly pay for tickets on trains will not know this.  I now I recall my previous post of an experence on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) (not normally cited as the most popular operator). Not only did the TM^‡(resolve) only charge the excess for not having the railcard, but also found a means of phoning in to verify their solo card.  So it can be done. 

Quite. And as there was over a hundred pounds of potential income for the rail operator on offer, it would certainly have been worth a bit of effort to get it verified.  You can't base your treatment of customers on the behaviour of the minority who try it on, otherwise Tesco would be doing random searches of customers as they leave their shops.

And the wider point that this story raises, missed by those who only see this as an enforcement issue, is that it is an example of a passenger who normally travels Standard class, but who could actually afford to pay for First Class from time to time and might make a spur of the moment decision to do so if the train is crowded.
There's probably more like him, providing a business opportunity: sell more First Class upgrades to people already travelling, more revenue and better utilisation of capacity  (and I'm talking normal First Class fares, not weekend first special offers). But that means promoting  the idea and making it easy for people to buy an upgrade on the train, for which being able to take people's money off them when offered is rather fundamental!

So, instead of having warning announcements like "If you sit in First Class you must have First Class ticket or else!" let's make them sales opportunities: "First Class seats are available on this train. You must have a First Class ticket, but if you'd like to try the First Class experience today then I'd be delighted to sell you an upgrade. For example, a First Class upgrade to Y will cost ^, including free hot drinks. You can find me in Coach Z...All credit and debit cards accepted " 

What a difference that would make to someone who could actually afford it but hadn't really thought about it before. Marketing not policing.

[Trowres]

The National Rail website says some TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) accept Solo/Electron. After an extensive trawl through the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and SWT^▸ (South West Trains) websites, I couldn't find any reference to which cards were accepted (on train or off).

I did, however, find a reference to cheques being accepted.

[readytostart]

I now I recall my previous post of an experence on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) (not normally cited as the most popular operator). Not only did the TM^‡(resolve) only charge the excess for not having the railcard, but also found a means of phoning in to verify their solo card.  So it can be done. 

XC are unable to process Electron or Solo transactions on board as the Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) does not associate the card numbers as a valid payment method. What we can do is telephone authorise cards which have been declined by the chip and pin, for example when the chip is set for online (as in immediate authorisation) use only. XC are also quite lenient with regards to forgotten railcards, using the train manager's discretion, usually only the excess is charged instead of a new ticket. Also, if the railcard is found then if the passenger sends in a photocopy of it along with their excess ticket (I'm guessing there's a cap on the number of times) then they will receive the excess back as travel vouchers.