FirstGroup win InterCity West Coast Franchise

[whole diary]

[Andy W]

Yes, I would back First as well.
I have misgivings about First, but on balance would prefer them to Virgin.

Virgin services allways feel subjectively like a not very good airline, rather than like a railway.
Being told where to sit, and the included but not very good reheated airline type meal is part of this.

Some Virgin fares seem outrageuos, on not very busy trains.
I can understand charging relatively high fares on busy services, but last minute travel on lightly used services seems unduly expensive.

As an example the off peak fare from Taunton to London is about ^40, with tickets available at the last minute, and valid on any off peak train.
I suspect that a last minute off peak journey on Virgin, of similar length, would cost much more.

Hi Broadgauge - your comments regarding pricing are interesting.

Roughly the same distance on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) would be Stoke-on-Trent.

Your comparable Virgin price would be ^60 but your journey would take 40 minutes less. However on the WCML there are serperate 'express' and 'commuter / stopping' services so you could go on a 'commuter / stopping' service London Midland for ^24 but add an extra half hour to your journey.

With Virgin you can pre-plan and go for ^24 second class & ^30 First with advance purchases which is their 'airline model' but by and large I see rail travel as a walk up and go service.

Pays your money / takes your choice I guess.

Edited to correct spelling (may be more mistakes)

[paul7575]

All the speculation about drastic cuts in catering seem to have been pure fiction.  Other companies have drastically cut catering but FGW^▸ (First Great Western) seems to have done better than most.  Was it all just sour grapes from Virgin trying o whip up sympathy?

Every time a franchise changes hands, and if it includes any form of catering, the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) goes straight off on the same well rehearsed plan.  Blanket media coverage follows about the potential for onboard catering staff cuts to take place, and eventually, some months later, nothing much happens.

My own suspicion is that onboard catering staff, often employed by the likes of Rail Gourmet, are not as unionised as guards, and it is done mainly to encourage membership of the RMT.  They probably don't go on so much about guards being cut, as they are basically essential on the type of intercity service in question.  Drivers are mainly ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about), and office staff mainly TSSA^» (Transport Salaried Staffs' Association - about).  So there's very little else they can scaremonger about, so that's what they do... 

The 'boy who cried wolf' springs to mind...

Paul 

[Andy W]

...  should have said leave plane at Wildberry overnight ...

The loading percentages are only a part of the story, though.  They're what I was highlighting in my earlier post, because that was what the previous posts were on about - and the fact that most people think services are far busier that they really are, because most people are around at the times the services are busy.

The next measure you want to look at is your use of your valuable investment (in this case your plane) and having in make at least some money rather than sitting idle during the day, and how to make best use of staff too.  Whereever they're based, what are they going to do in Swineton for 11 hours each day, or are you going to need multiple sets of staff because of shift limits?   If so, how do you get them back and forth, or are they going to lodge away?   I'm getting way off topic here, though ...

To stay off topic a while - I understand, so you could return to Wildberry during the day to build up a service with other interested groups or you could fly off to Sun City during the day where you know there is already a market. Yes you can open Pandorra's box.

Grahame, have you ever considered a coffee shop get together where we can put faces to names and generally have a chat? Perhaps you have and my invite got lost in the post!!

[broadgage]

First have confirmed that buffet cars will be kept.
Catering staff will RISE.
"In-seat dining" introduced.

Source: Radio 4

Whilst that sounds good, did they say ALL buffets or SOME buffets.
Whilst I have slightly more faith in First than I have in Virgin, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) do not a have a very good record.

Micro-buffets replacing proper ones
7 return pullman workings to/from the West gradually reduced to 2.
ALL Welsh Pullmans withdrawn.

Stating in a railway magazine that "existing restaurants would be retained" and then withdrawing another before the publication was on sale !.


OTOH^▸ (On The Other Hand) Virgin do not offer any proper restaurants, and FGW still have 2 and might manage several more in a larger franchise.

[Btline]

Also Virgin were very keen on improving journey times.
First are not - all their journey times go up pretty much every t/t change.

Expect the super journey times to get longer by more slack and extra stops.
(apart from Glasgow - which is only achieved by the extra Preston service after Norton Bridge is re-done)

[JayMac]

As an example the off peak fare from Taunton to London is about ^40, with tickets available at the last minute, and valid on any off peak train.
I suspect that a last minute off peak journey on Virgin, of similar length, would cost much more.

That fare (^39.00) isn't valid on all off peak trains as it is the Super Off Peak. The Off Peak single from Taunton to Paddington is ^50.50. The Off Peak Return is ^84.50

A comparable length journey on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) would be Stoke-on-Trent to Euston. The Off Peak Single on that journey is ^60.20, although that can be had for ^30.60 if bought in conjunction with an Advance single for the other direction. The Off Peak Return is ^61.20.

So, single only journey cheaper on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for comparable length. Return journey significantly more.

[trainbuff]

All the speculation about drastic cuts in catering seem to have been pure fiction.  Other companies have drastically cut catering but FGW^▸ (First Great Western) seems to have done better than most.  Was it all just sour grapes from Virgin trying o whip up sympathy?

Every time a franchise changes hands, and if it includes any form of catering, the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) goes straight off on the same well rehearsed plan.  Blanket media coverage follows about the potential for onboard catering staff cuts to take place, and eventually, some months later, nothing much happens.

My own suspicion is that onboard catering staff, often employed by the likes of Rail Gourmet, are not as unionised as guards, and it is done mainly to encourage membership of the RMT.  They probably don't go on so much about guards being cut, as they are basically essential on the type of intercity service in question.  Drivers are mainly ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about), and office staff mainly TSSA^» (Transport Salaried Staffs' Association - about).  So there's very little else they can scaremonger about, so that's what they do... 

The 'boy who cried wolf' springs to mind...

Paul 

I believe that NO catering on West Coast is outsourced to Railgourmet. 'They are all in house' employees and therefore paid a reasonable salary. Unlike Rail Gourmet who I believe pay much nearer to minimum wage.

It is these in house jobs that will be lost, or at least a percentage of themand whilst I understand that  some see Bob Crow  as merely a tub thumping leftie he does have a point I believe

[grahame]

Grahame, have you ever considered a coffee shop get together where we can put faces to names and generally have a chat? Perhaps you have and my invite got lost in the post!!

Andy's post spawned a thread of discussion ... we're currently taking about a Saturday or Sunday in September.    I've separated this discussion into a separate thread - its at

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11147.0

Note - thats in "Frequent Posters" so you'll need to be logged in to read the details join the discussions.  If you're a regular reader, would like to meet us, but haven't got an account yet - please sign up. You only need a handful of posts to be considered "frequent" ...

[Electric train]

I have been glancing at this thread over the last few days.  No matter who won the franchise there would have been no status quo changes would have been made even if Virgin had retained the franchise.

It is easy to knock First however on the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise they did respond to many of the protests regarding the services in 2007 and recently in the TV they have strengthened many services.  Sometimes their communications to the passengers is not that good, they are not unique in that.

I wish First all the best with the new challenge and bon voyage to Virgin will they be assigned to the great book of British railway history like BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)), the LMS^▸ (London Midland Scottish - 1923 to 1948), LNER^» (London North Eastern Railway - about) etc time will tell

[woody]

Rejected Virgin Rail bid for West Coast franchise officially more "deliverable"
Virgin Rail^s losing bid for the West Coast train franchise is understood to have been officially rated by the Department for Transport as a more ^deliverable^ offer than FirstGroup^s.


Industry sources said Sir Richard Branson^s Virgin Rail was rated top for ^deliverability^. According to January^s Invitation to Tender document, that covers such things as ^timetabling^ for forecast demand and improvements to service quality.

On timetabling for demand, Virgin is thought to have easily beaten FirstGroup ^ even though the winning bidder forecast much higher revenue and volume growth to March 2026. FirstGroup is targeting 10.4pc annual revenue growth versus Virgin^s 8.5pc.

Controversially, FirstGroup is understood to have earned a higher rating for customer service despite the company being repeatedly outscored by Virgin in passenger satisfaction surveys. FirstGroup is also thought to have beaten Virgin on fleet delivery ^ even though, unlike Virgin, it is yet to finalise train contracts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9481296/Rejected-Virgin-Rail-bid-for-West-Coast-franchise-officially-more-deliverable.html

Smells a bit to me.

[eightf48544]

It's the 10.4% annual revenue growth that gets me. I've just run it through an interest rate clculator and as near as I can see that means a growth of around  2.6 times in revenue over the 13 years. So if it's 100 million today it will need to be 260 million in 2026.

Presumably it also mens at least 2.6 times more journies as well, unless they are relying on conitued above inflation fare rises.

No wonder the Virgin bid was considered more "deliverable" although at 8.5% that still requires a 1.9 times growth. With the same calculator.

http://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.php

Using ^1000 as base and 13 years.

[Btline]

First West Coast to re-introduce THREE CLASS system.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2190305/TIM-OTOOLE-INTERVIEW-Branson-lost-field-What-saying-simply-true.html

Standard, Club and First.

Club class will get to sit in a First Class carriage and get free soft drinks.

[broadgage]

Are you certain that club class will be a first class carriage ?

My natural cynicism leads me to suspect that club class will be a way of charging more for standard class, rather than a way of charging less for first class coaches.

I would expect club class to be like the present standard class, with the new higher density standard being made worse.

FIRST almost all table seats , 2+1 seating

CLUB CLASS , Like present standard with some tables, in effect second class but not called that

STANDARD, High density budget airline seating, minimal luggage space. In effect third class but not called that.


Will soon become known as first, second and third.

[JayMac]

You may expect it broadgage but that doesn't mean it will happen.

Why not wait and see what First actually propose to do when they refurbish the Pendolinos and Voyagers?

Remember, these are dedicated inter-city stock and are not performing duties similar to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) which act as London - Thames Valley commuter trains as well as inter-city trains.

At least you didn't speculate on 2+3 in Standard on a Voyager or Pendolino as has been done elsewhere. 

[ChrisB]

Club = Full fare Standard, I reckon.

Trolley for 'Third' class, Buffet/shop for Club & galley for First, methinks.

Would agree with seating layouts in Broadgage's post above.

Now.....who thinks First can afford to win the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise as well?.....or is the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) having a shift around on long distance franchises?.....methinks the latter & this win actually *reduces* First's chances of winning GW.....