FirstGroup win InterCity West Coast Franchise

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

Now.....who thinks First can afford to win the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise as well?.....or is the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) having a shift around on long distance franchises?.....methinks the latter & this win actually *reduces* First's chances of winning GW.....

If they are following the rules then it should not matter unless there are competition issues. I cannot see any of competition issues between GW and WC^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority)) so any bias really would leave matters open to judicial review. After all they should have set out the criteria, which is obviously going to be highly weighted towards money.

[ChrisB]

THe key word in my post was "afford".....nowt to do with competition.

Can they afford another few ^billion....?

[ellendune]

THe key word in my post was "afford".....nowt to do with competition.

Can they afford another few ^billion....?

Now there I would agree

[Btline]

I assume that "Club Class" will be a declassified 1st class coach on Pendos and the "hybrid" Coach on Voyagers.
Probably similar to Chiltern's business zone - a ^15ish supplement per journey, allowing people to claim the standard ticket on expenses and pay for the upgrade themselves.

Remember, these are dedicated inter-city stock and are not performing duties similar to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) which act as London - Thames Valley commuter trains as well as inter-city trains.

At least you didn't speculate on 2+3 in Standard on a Voyager or Pendolino as has been done elsewhere. 

Actually the Thames Turbos are the commuter trains, but as FGW have decided to stop HSTs pretty much everywhere these days, they are now commuter trains. I can see this happening with WC^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority)), more stops at Watford/MK^▸ (Milton Keynes)/Rugby/Trent Valley meaning the trains become sardine specials. Perhaps First are planning to poach half of LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) passengers to pay the gov!

Who's been suggesting 3+2 seating? That sounds daft to me as even commuter TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) have realised that 2+2 is better.

[JayMac]

Who's been suggesting 3+2 seating?

A silly tangent on a similar 'First winning West Coast' topic on another rail forum.

[Electric train]

I assume that "Club Class" will be a declassified 1st class coach on Pendos and the "hybrid" Coach on Voyagers.
Probably similar to Chiltern's business zone - a ^15ish supplement per journey, allowing people to claim the standard ticket on expenses and pay for the upgrade themselves.

Remember, these are dedicated inter-city stock and are not performing duties similar to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) which act as London - Thames Valley commuter trains as well as inter-city trains.

At least you didn't speculate on 2+3 in Standard on a Voyager or Pendolino as has been done elsewhere. 

Actually the Thames Turbos are the commuter trains, but as FGW have decided to stop HSTs pretty much everywhere these days, they are now commuter trains. I can see this happening with WC^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority)), more stops at Watford/MK^▸ (Milton Keynes)/Rugby/Trent Valley meaning the trains become sardine specials. Perhaps First are planning to poach half of LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) passengers to pay the gov!

Who's been suggesting 3+2 seating? That sounds daft to me as even commuter TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) have realised that 2+2 is better.

To a degree I agree with this ........ Branson saw the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) very much as a "UK^▸ (United Kingdom) internal airline" which stopped at only key locations; I had hard that at one time Virgin wanted to can the MK stops all together

[Btline]

It's only because of a lack of capacity.
If you wanted faster, more frequent trains to cities to the North, then less MK^▸ (Milton Keynes) stops!

A key reason why we need HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), to get these MK stops back without affecting journey times.

[ellendune]

It's only because of a lack of capacity.
If you wanted faster, more frequent trains to cities to the North, then less MK^▸ (Milton Keynes) stops!

A key reason why we need HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), to get these MK stops back without affecting journey times.

Agree entirely. If you want to squeeze more trains on the limited capacity then you need all the trains on one track going at the same speed. That means they either all stop at MK or none of them do.  If you follow that logic none of the fast trains stop there at least in peak periods.  If you have HS2 then all the trains on the classic fast lines are now semi fast so even if traffic has grown so much that the line is full again they all can stop.

[paul7575]

MK^▸ (Milton Keynes) is a bad example though, because unlike Watford Jn, it had a new layout provided with an extra reversible fast platform specifically to allow consecutive trains to stop there.  They don't appear to use the facility much if at all though.

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) 2006 WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) progress report, had this regarding MK:

The most significant of the improvements will be the creation of a third fast line by the addition of a new northbound fast line and platform face. This will enable consecutive trains to call at Milton Keynes at peak times, without loss of line capacity, a better turnback facility to be used at certain times of day and improved resilience for London ^ Northampton trains to be achieved. Similar changes will also take place on the slow lines, including local sponsorship of a platform capable of handling future services to and from Bedford or possibly later, in conjunction with the possible line restoration, from Oxford or Aylesbury.

Sorry, I can't link to it as it is hidden in the archives... 

Paul

[Btline]

Yes, but calling more trains at MK^▸ (Milton Keynes) slows down the service for everyone else.
That's the main reason VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) don't stop there much.

[Rhydgaled]

I assume that "Club Class" will be a declassified 1st class coach on Pendos and the "hybrid" Coach on Voyagers.
Probably similar to Chiltern's business zone - a ^15ish supplement per journey, allowing people to claim the standard ticket on expenses and pay for the upgrade themselves.

That sounds sensible, although I would expect the layout in the 'Club Class' coach to be 2+2 seating, maybe slighlty more densely packed than first but less so than standard (which given it is currently fairly cramped according to other posters will probably remain much the same). So basicly, refurbishment of one coach in each train to add extra seats to make 2+1 in 'Club class' up to 2+2 and a simple refresh of the other vehicles. Is it comfirmed that all three types of train (Pendos, Voyagers and the new 6-car electrics) will have all three classes, given that Voyagers are shorter it might make more sense if they were just club/first and standard.

[broadgage]

You may expect it broadgage but that doesn't mean it will happen.

Why not wait and see what First actually propose to do when they refurbish the Pendolinos and Voyagers?

Remember, these are dedicated inter-city stock and are not performing duties similar to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) which act as London - Thames Valley commuter trains as well as inter-city trains.

At least you didn't speculate on 2+3 in Standard on a Voyager or Pendolino as has been done elsewhere. 

I cant see how First expect to carry more passengers and raise more revenue from a nearly fixed train fleet without much higher density seating in the new third class.
I did not speculate on 2+3 seating because I took that for granted in third.
Other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) have shown the way in this regard.
"thousands of extra seats"  "options to suit all budgets "
And the infamous "it is what customers want, surveys show it"

It could certainly be argued that parts of the West coast route serve long distance commuters, in much the same way as FGW HSTs do, and similar arguments could be applied to justify downgrading the seating layout from inter city to commuter.

MY negative thoughts regarding "improvements" are not entirely aimed at First group since I believe that similar downgrades would been done by Virgin had they retained the franchise.
Higher density seating, removal of tables and luggage space and downgrading catering is generally regarded as progress on todays railway, and does indeed provide more seats.

[Brucey]

Is 2+3 seating even possible on a Pendolino?  I wouldn't have imagined there is enough space to fit even the narrowest of seats as they seem pretty cramped as it is.

[woody]

Meanwhile back in the real world......

FIRSTGROUP'S ^5.5 billion bid for the Intercity West Coast franchise may face critical scrutiny from several directions in the next few weeks. Reports say that two Parliamentary committees have expressed concern about the bid, while loser Virgin is understood to have just over a week in which to decide whether to press for a judicial review.

A war of words has also broken out between Virgin founder Richard Branson and FirstGroup chief Tim O'Toole, who has described Virgin's reaction to losing West Coast as 'hysterical'.

It is understood that two committees of MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) are looking closely at the Department for Transport's calculations, amid concern that the contract signed by First delays the bulk of the premiums due until later in the franchise than the competing proposal from Virgin.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2012/08/20-west-coast-bid-may-face.html

As I have previous stated First Groups winning West Coast bid is starting to smell of high hell and its being noticed.Makes me wonder what other behind the scenes scullduggery is now going on regarding the delayed First Great Western franchise.The railways financial chickens are finally coming home to roost for our artificial rail franchising system courtesy of the 2008 global financial meltdown.The bill for John Majors rail privatization is finally becoming due.

[paul7575]

I did not speculate on 2+3 seating because I took that for granted in third.

Then I find it hard to believe you have ever been on a Pendolino.  It would be physically impossible in their body profile. 

In any case, there is no evidence that First group need to increase the number of seats in a Pendolino by any significant amount.  All they have commited to is providing 12000 extra seats per day by leasing 11 x 6 car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit).  That number of seats per day will be based on the capacity of each of those trains, multiplied by the number of return trips they will do from Birmingham to Scotland over the course of the day.  So they only need to provide about 300 seats per train, or about 50 per carriage to achieve the announced figure.

Of course you've got prior form for deciding that the layout of trains will be the worst imaginable, and then writing about it as though it's a fact, like you have with IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) over the last couple of years.

Paul