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Author Topic: Changes to cycle policy - 3/4 Aug 13  (Read 36193 times)
grahame
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 16:01:23 »


Personally, I'm also in favour of large luggage tickets: if it doesn't fit above your had or under the seat in front, you buy a ticket. If that's accepted, maybe there's a chance that IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) trains will be fitted out with decent luggage and bicycle spaces.

There's a lot to be said for that ...

I have travelled in some awfully overluggaged HSTs (High Speed Train) in the last few years.  But then those same HSTs appear on commuter runs and the luggage rack if scarcely used.  Perhaps your idea should be pushed further - and say there's a per person fare (irrespective of age if they're going to be big enough to occupy a seat), and charge for large luggage, cycles, dogs, surfboard, wheelchairs and buggies at - say - half fare.   You can then get some income from that extra space - remodel all HST coaches based on coach C (though not such a big loo) and you have capacity for "whatever".  On "Toure de Devon" week it will be cycles, on "seaside specials" it will be buggies, and on long distance journeys it will be luggage.  On trains such as the 19:30 Paddington to Bristol, it will be standing space for lots more passengers!

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It feels unreasonable to expect event organisers or participants to band together and hire their own train ...

It does indeed, but then you would expect organisers of a pop concert to band together and organise (usually road) transport for their acts ... so what feels unreasonable may not be so.

But - agreed - utterly frustrating where a major event such as happen from time to time in Cardiff result in no trains that evening.   I'm so glad that train services weren't cancelled all through the Olympics  Grin as that wouldn't have looked too good.
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mjray
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2013, 19:09:42 »

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It feels unreasonable to expect event organisers or participants to band together and hire their own train ...

It does indeed, but then you would expect organisers of a pop concert to band together and organise (usually road) transport for their acts ... so what feels unreasonable may not be so.
Acts maybe, but a big chunk of the audience? The few times it does happen, I suspect it's road transport because there's a lot less regulation and a lot more idle rolling stock. It's all rather frustrating when rails are so much nicer...
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But - agreed - utterly frustrating where a major event such as happen from time to time in Cardiff result in no trains that evening.   I'm so glad that train services weren't cancelled all through the Olympics  Grin as that wouldn't have looked too good.
The cynic in me wonders whether that was purely First's choice to enter in the Olympic spirit, or did they get a load of GW (Great Western) upgrades for the Olympics like EC and others did? Grin
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TonyK
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2013, 22:52:56 »

Cycles can be a real nuisance on Severn Beach trains. Pre-2008, there weren't enough passengers for it to be a problem, and some of the passengers took a bike as insurance against delay or cancellation. The piles of sharp metal, with accompanying lycra-clad fascists usually crowded around the doors is a phenomenon that owes much to the improved service over the past few years. Not sure whether "something must be done" or whether the root of the problem lies in the rolling stock.
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2013, 23:19:44 »

The root of the problem lies in FGW (First Great Western) (or was it Wessex Trains) caving in to the demand of cyclists who saw it as a right that they can occupy the space of 3 people and only pay for one in the rush hour when space (even standing space) is at a premium.

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mjones
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2013, 07:15:22 »

Cycles can be a real nuisance on Severn Beach trains. Pre-2008, there weren't enough passengers for it to be a problem, and some of the passengers took a bike as insurance against delay or cancellation. The piles of sharp metal, with accompanying lycra-clad fascists usually crowded around the doors is a phenomenon that owes much to the improved service over the past few years. Not sure whether "something must be done" or whether the root of the problem lies in the rolling stock.

Is that really an appropriate way to describe a group of people?
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mjones
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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2013, 07:26:34 »

The root of the problem lies in FGW (First Great Western) (or was it Wessex Trains) caving in to the demand of cyclists who saw it as a right that they can occupy the space of 3 people and only pay for one in the rush hour when space (even standing space) is at a premium.



I rather doubt most bicycle users  have thought about it in any detail at all, never mind demanding any particular 'right'.  As FourTrackNow acknowledges in the reasonable part of his post, in the past there has been spare capacity, in which case it makes good business sense to allow passengers to bring bicycles with them. Clearly when trains get crowded then the argument is very different, but most people, whether cyclists or not, have very little knowledge (or interest) in the workings of the railway and don't fully appreciate just how expensive and impractical it is to provide lots of additional space for bikes on board trains. That said, I would still expect new trains to be designed to make best use of their internal space, including any space needed at the ends for crumple zones etc, because there are excellent synergies between bike and rail and it does bring people onto the railways in the off-peak.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2013, 08:59:46 »


...most people... ...don't fully appreciate just how expensive and impractical it is to provide lots of additional space for bikes on board trains. That said, I would still expect new trains to be designed to make best use of their internal space, including any space needed at the ends for crumple zones etc, because there are excellent synergies between bike and rail and it does bring people onto the railways in the off-peak.


I think I fall into the category 'most people' then! Can anyone tell me how much it would cost to do a minimal refit - basically stripping out all the seats -of a redundant Mk3 carriage? And then what would be the practicalities and costs of sandwiching it into a 158?

As to FT,N!'s rather unguarded comments about the lycra-clad folk who accompany bicycles: Well actually I suppose you have to bit a bit hard-nosed to take your bike on a train. I don't do it, because it's a lottery whether you get a place. So when, for example, my (lycra-clad) family went cycling along the Strawberry Line a few weeks ago, we strapped the bikes to the Mobile Death Greenhouse and drove to Yatton Station.

For rail to work, it has to be the best option. If it keeps chipping away at discretionary travellers or minorities, then one day the industry will wake up to find it has no punters.
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mjray
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2013, 11:14:40 »

The piles of sharp metal, with accompanying lycra-clad fascists usually crowded around the doors is a phenomenon that owes much to the improved service over the past few years. Not sure whether "something must be done" or whether the root of the problem lies in the rolling stock.
I think you may be misinterpreting a frustration with the broken transport system that put them in the way of other travellers.

The main reason riders tend to be crowded around the doors is a mixture of that being the only space for cycles on some trains and the confusing mismatch of platform signs (when they exist) and locations for where the proper bicycle storage spaces are (at one end of HSTs (High Speed Train), in the middle on the old alphaline trains, at the ends of some railbuses...).

I can think of three more radical things that could be done if there was a will: paid bicycle tickets as mentioned above; I'd get a bike bag if there were consistently luggage racks that they could fit in (I've one quick-release wheel and would probably get another and QR (QR Code - Quick Response code) handlebars if it would do any good); and maybe it would be possible to retrofit bike hangers with emergency releases across some unused doors, so at least bikes would be secure and not block ordinary use - ideally on some bar that can move side to side for the few times when the platform is on the "other" side - apart from Montpelier, all Severn Beach Line stations have platforms on the north/east side, although both are used at Clifton Down at peak.
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broadgage
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2013, 11:31:22 »

Adding a redundant MKIII coach to the middle of an existing DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) formation is no doubt doable, but remember that each existing vehicle has an engine and that adding an unpowered vehicle will reduce performance.
The added vehicle cant be heated or cooled without costly modifications, and only the most basic of lighting could be added to the electrical system of the adjacent powered vehicle.
A vehicle without heating or cooling, and with say 3 basic fluorescent lights might be OK for carrying cycles or luggage though ?

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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2013, 11:31:42 »

As these mods would cost a lot of money, and the TOCs (Train Operating Company) can't see a way of recouping these funds, I think it ain't happening any time soon....
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grahame
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2013, 11:44:07 »

A vehicle without heating or cooling, and with say 3 basic fluorescent lights might be OK for carrying cycles or luggage though ?

Probably NOT in mid-formation these days though ... and unless you do complete fleets, you're going to end up with fragmented groups of trains and have to be very careful with stock rostering.
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TonyK
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2013, 15:18:54 »

Anyway, I'm thinking of buying a bike, so I may get to see the other side of the coin. It was a little intemperate, I grant, but I have seen some truly nasty behaviour by someone who truly deserves the sobriquet. It is to folk of that ilk, not cyclists generally, that my ire is directed.

That aside, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Separating the cyclist from the cycle on an urban route like SVB will simply slow everything down, as people reclaim their bike. Vertical racks seem to work in some settings, but that of course means fewer seats for the pedestrian part of the client^le. Cyclists are made welcome at stations and on trains, says FGW (First Great Western), but the cycling policy leaflet is clear that there is a maximum (on 150, 153, 158) of 2 cycles - it doesn't say if it's per train or per carriage. It would be absurd to turn away the third cyclist on a lightly loaded train, but worse to let too many bikes on one of packed morning commuter trains. So  how is this policy implemented in practice? Not sure it is, really.
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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2013, 15:45:58 »

Well, here in the gritty, but poorer, north (!), Northern Rail also have a two bikes per train policy, but encourage their staff to use their discretion. Clearly cyclists (and other passengers) will have a better experience if they travel in the opposite direction to the peak flow. I have travelled on busy trains (156/158) with upto 8 bikes, though there were few standing passengers.

For the past few years Northern have installed bike stands and self-lock lockers at many stations, mostly in urban areas. Leeds has seen the first Dutch style Cycle Point opened where secure undercover parking, repairs, shop and bike hire are integral. A similar Cycle point has opened at Chelmsford (same parent company to Merseyrail, Northern & Greater Angla = Abellio (Netherlands Railways). Government and local authorities have contributed.

Next month the TOCs (Train Operating Company) (as mentioned) are rolling out Bike and Go www.bikeandgo.co.uk/ which is a Uk version of OV Fiets where you can hire a bike for the last mile (or more) of your journey. So ideal journey is bike home to station, park bike, train, hire B&G (Bristol and Gloucester Railway) bike to destination(s).

I think this the model that most TOCs would wish to pursue, rather than make more space on trains. After all there are no spare carriages to convey bikes, otherwise they would be in service with seats (and bums on them!)
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John R
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2013, 20:44:58 »

The root of the problem lies in FGW (First Great Western) (or was it Wessex Trains) caving in to the demand of cyclists who saw it as a right that they can occupy the space of 3 people and only pay for one in the rush hour when space (even standing space) is at a premium.



I rather doubt most bicycle users  have thought about it in any detail at all, never mind demanding any particular 'right'. 

They did actually. There was a protest, when cyclists took lots of bulky items onto local services to "prove" that if they could take these items without restriction then why not bikes. Nobody seemed to point out to them that actually there are restrictions on the size of items, but instead the TOC (Train Operating Company) (Wessex or FGW) just caved in and acceded to their demand.  I can't find a link to it, although it was on the local news at the time, sometime around 05/06 I believe. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/4202559.stm. Now found a link!
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TonyK
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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2013, 20:51:19 »

Y'know, I'm beginning to feel vindicated...
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