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Author Topic: Derailed freight train at Gloucester causing severe disruption - 15 October 2013  (Read 30389 times)
paul7575
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« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2014, 14:10:48 »

Just read the report, I definitely know a lot more about 'cyclic top' now...   

Interesting that they seem to be writing off 'steel sleepers' due to the difficult of maintaining track level with manual tools or 'stone blowers', and they suggest they were the wrong choice for this secondary line in the first place, because although secondary as a passenger line no-one seems to have thought of the freight traffic.

Another part of the analysis concerns the suspension performance of the container wagons when empty or lightly loaded - they and their testing and certification come in for a fair amount of criticism.

Paul
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bobm
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« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2014, 14:23:05 »

The YouTube video from which the stills were taken on Page 45 can be found here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4ntnt4DL60&list=TLW9k3I4Qf2zna7LqcyuZNlApThV-hz8IE

Scary stuff
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paul7575
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« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2014, 14:40:15 »

The YouTube video from which the stills were taken on Page 45 can be found here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4ntnt4DL60&list=TLW9k3I4Qf2zna7LqcyuZNlApThV-hz8IE

Scary stuff

Note the comments under the video.  "the track was safe to run at that speed , as a BR (British Rail(ways)) Tracklayer i have a lot worse and at faster speeds."  Roll Eyes

Paul
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Trowres
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« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2014, 23:01:10 »

The 83 page report has relatively little to say about the train continuing its progress for four miles following derailment, until the signaller concluded that the growing list of track circuit failures (and a point detection failure) warranted stopping the train for examination.

The report refers to a couple of European standards bodies/committees and their analysis of wagon derailment monitoring equipment, which apparently concluded that
Quote
the cost of fitting and maintaining derailment detectors
could not be justified on safety grounds alone. There was a better case for
fitment based on economic grounds, in terms of less infrastructure damage to
repair after a derailment

Now these things are difficult to quantify. The conclusions may well be justified if spending that money elsewhere could prodice a safer railway.

However, beware of "black swans" - things that happen in defiance of conventional risk analysis. Beware also of creeping changes in practice that cause risks to grow and have contributed to some of the major rail incidents of modern times.

This particular derailment was a consequence of dodgy track on a secondary route, but some other type of derailment causing four miles of damage with possible running foul of adjacent lines...platforms...on a busy route could be a lot worse in impact - and even without injuries, closing the line for several days.

I don't particularly wish to lead a demand for ever-more safery paraphernalia. But as the eyes and ears that may detect such derailments are removed from trains...signalboxes...stations...crossings...I don't wish us to sleep-walk into another version of Newton, Hatfield or Southall.
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JayMac
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« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2014, 23:16:29 »

One of the toughest, most highly technical, RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) reports I've read. Hard work.

However, having met an RAIB Investigator, and hearing first hand how they go about the job, I fully understand the need to cover all aspects of an incident, no matter how small or inconsequential those aspects may appear. Or how deeply technical the investigation has to be.

It's worth noting that in this particular incident if the wagon had derailed to the right, and there was a another train passing on the down line, the consequences of this cyclic top phenomenon could have been far worse.
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Worcester_Passenger
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« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2014, 00:02:03 »

It's worth noting that in this particular incident if the wagon had derailed to the right, and there was a another train passing on the down line, the consequences of this cyclic top phenomenon could have been far worse.
I thought it did derail to the right.
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JayMac
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« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2014, 00:14:42 »

Yes., sorry. I meant to say further to the right. The leading wheelset of the final bogie stayed on the rails until it encountered the second check rail near Gloucester, until this point the trailing wheelset stayed roughly in line with the tracks.
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"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

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Worcester_Passenger
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« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2014, 06:32:19 »

One of the toughest, most highly technical, RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) reports I've read. Hard work.

Agree completely.

A technical question. In the days when Eurostar used to operate out of Waterloo, there used to be a bit of track just out of Waterloo where the train always ended up bouncing. Was that down to cyclic top - or something else?
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2014, 22:31:27 »


A technical question. In the days when Eurostar used to operate out of Waterloo, there used to be a bit of track just out of Waterloo where the train always ended up bouncing. Was that down to cyclic top - or something else?

Once upon a time I lived near Paris and a near neighbour was BR (British Rail(ways))'s commissioning engineer for the Eurostar trains. I recall talking to him one evening over a glass of wine (as one does) about the articulation used in the TGVs (Train a Grande Vitesse) and the Eurostars and this may explain the effect you noticed. The linkage between the coaches is such that the coach ends can hinge (for curves) and twist relative to each each other but not pitch. This means that the whole train rises and falls together on its suspension. For reasons I can't remember this meant that dampers were not needed across the primary suspension which as a result could be excited into resonance at certain speeds. (As an aside the lack of these dampers is one of the reasons for the silky smooth ride of the TGVs). From memory these speeds were near 40mph and 60mph, which could happen quite frequently in south London on the the route out of Waterloo, but was not such a problem in France where trains got going more smartly! To avoid too much discomfort little white stickers were attached to the speedometers as a reminder to the drivers to avoid these speeds.

Could this correspond with the effect you noticed?
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