Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 04:55 29 Mar 2024
- Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
* Easter getaway begins with flood alerts in place
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
29th Mar (1913)
Foundation of National Union or Railwaymen (*)

Train RunningCancelled
07:00 Bedwyn to Newbury
07:22 Newbury to Bedwyn
08:13 Newbury to Bedwyn
08:46 Bedwyn to Newbury
09:54 Bedwyn to Newbury
10:22 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:29 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:57 Bedwyn to Newbury
12:52 Bedwyn to Newbury
Short Run
04:54 Plymouth to London Paddington
05:12 Reading to Bedwyn
05:33 Plymouth to London Paddington
05:55 Plymouth to London Paddington
06:00 Bedwyn to London Paddington
06:37 Plymouth to London Paddington
07:03 London Paddington to Paignton
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
Delayed
21:45 Penzance to London Paddington
23:45 London Paddington to Penzance
05:03 Penzance to London Paddington
06:05 Penzance to London Paddington
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington
09:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
11:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 29, 2024, 05:00:53 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[98] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[97] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[86] Return of the BRUTE?
[74] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[53] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[23] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 17 18 [19] 20 21 ... 67
  Print  
Author Topic: Weather disruption caused in 2014, and how to prevent it happening again - ongoing discussion  (Read 413685 times)
Pb_devon
Transport Scholar
Sr. Member
******
Posts: 287


View Profile
« Reply #270 on: February 11, 2014, 15:06:52 »

A question for someone in the know.... signalling west of Exeter (up to and including Totnes, and the Paignton branch) is from Exeter Panel.  Images of the Dawlish breach show a 'spaghetti' of wires hence leading me to assume S&T (Signalling and Telegraph) all been cut.
How are signals & points being operated west of Exeter, up to where Plymouth takes over?
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #271 on: February 11, 2014, 15:19:13 »

A question for someone in the know.... signalling west of Exeter (up to and including Totnes, and the Paignton branch) is from Exeter Panel.  Images of the Dawlish breach show a 'spaghetti' of wires hence leading me to assume S&T (Signalling and Telegraph) all been cut.
How are signals & points being operated west of Exeter, up to where Plymouth takes over?

They didn't work immediately after the breach - I think that's why there were no trains running at Newton Abbot for quite a while.  Subsequently they will have either run new cables round the damaged area, or switched to an alternative routeing over a newly organised leased line from BT or whatever.

I think though that the damage photos might have looked worse than the reality because in those views where the tarmac surface was missing the inch of cables probably included all those that normal utilities run under the street as well as anything specific to the railway...

Paul
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #272 on: February 11, 2014, 15:24:38 »

Whilst the weather has indeed been much worse than usual, I do not feel that the railway industry as a whole has come out of this very well.

I am well aware that that much of the problem is weather damage to infrastructure and is therefore a network rail problem and not a TOC (Train Operating Company) problem.

It is only about a year since the last bout of "exceptional" flooding, and the rail industry needs to accept that this is rapidly becoming the "new normal"
Rail travel ought be encouraged for enviromental reasons, but this wont be easy with continual weather related closures.

In years gone by, rail routes often remained open in bad weather that closed roads in the area. These days rail routes are often closed for days at a time when the roads are open as normal.

For many who have to get to work these regular closures are a serious problem. Most employers would forgive the odd days absence in truly extreme conditions, but not each time it rains  heavily or snows.

Suggesting that people should drive instead is not realistic for some, and others like me made a decision not to drive for enviromental reasons.

And of course for those who have a choice, once they have purchased a car and paid the fixed costs of running a car, then the marginal cost of petrol versus train fares starts to look attractive.
The TOTAL costs of running a car do not compare well with rail tickets, but if one HAS to buy a car for rain, snow, signal failures, bob crow days, landslides, OHLE failures, and so on, then one might as well spread the fixed costs by driving all the time.

For my own daily commute I have largely given up on the train due to the appaling service offered by FCC (First Capital Connect), and now use the much slower, but more reliable, more comfortable and less stressful bus instead.
FCC are basicly a weekday only, fairweather only railway.

The railway industry really needs to improve response to bad weather, the example given above of useing a very short train is a good example.
With most services cancelled they can hardly pleed lack of rolling stock !
And I am not convinced that slow speed operation in water just below the rail top would really cause damage.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #273 on: February 11, 2014, 15:24:57 »

Who is going to pay for all these hotel rooms?

If it's truly a "necessity" and the trains can't run - that is really the only alternative, or driving - otherwise it isn't a "necessity" (check the definition - lets not exaggerate)

Quote
And who are you to judge whether it's necessary for someone to get to work? Do you draw the line at Doctors?  Engineers? Policemen? Firemen? Social workers? Cleaners?

The employer and employee together. We're in a different world where transport will grind to a halt coz of the weather and we need to engage different mindsets, the sooner the better.

Quote
"Most people will take a day off with a heavy cold" - presumably you have evidence for this or are you just speculating?

 - I'm not going to answer that. I don't believe you truly think pax don't do this. I'm not saying I don't blame them for doing so though - just that it's not impossible to take a day or so off work without everything grinding to a halt.

Quote
No-one is saying that its the fault of the transport companies but it doesn't mean that everyone is able to kick back and forget about work........I wonder how your Boss feels about it? (if you have one?)

Who said anything about forgetting work? - read back & I said firms need to think along the lines of remote working....(unless of course you have no utilities at home coz of the weather....) - but as I said, the few that are that hard done by surely can be excused by their firms.

Quote
..........in either case I doubt you've ever operated in a commercial environment judging by your comments which are breathtakingly naive at best, or as I've said perhaps just trolling?

Not at all. I can't believe everyone just thinks this is a complete one-off? It's happened twice this winter already, and all I see are heads in the sand.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 15:33:57 by ChrisB » Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #274 on: February 11, 2014, 15:33:38 »

And I am not convinced that slow speed operation in water just below the rail top would really cause damage.

But just how many trains can be pathed at 5mph?....and if the water levels rise by another inch or so & even those have to stop?
TOCs (Train Operating Company) will want to run a similar service throughout the day, to prevent pax from getting stranded without a way of getting back, so if the forecast is for rising water (which it currently is/was), I can't blame them for doing what they've done. Indeed, they tried running peak Cotswold HSTs (High Speed Train) through yesterday morning & would have done last night, until the Maidenhead closure prevented it.

They are doing pretty much what they can, while looking after their stock. There *are* alternative routings set up, and all restrictions lifted.
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #275 on: February 11, 2014, 15:53:00 »

CrossCountry Press Release

Quote
7th February 2014
Cut-price rail travel for journeys in the Westcountry after recent storms
Rail users whose journeys are affected by the extensive storm damage to the railway line at Dawlish receive a welcome boost from train operator CrossCountry.

From Monday 10 February, any customer purchasing an Advance ticket for a journey with CrossCountry to or from any station west of Exeter, needs only buy a ticket to or from Exeter St Davids station. This would mean someone travelling from Penzance to Manchester could purchase an Advance ticket for as little as ^53 for their 350 mile journey.

Advance tickets are subject to availability so, as well as offering the full range of Advance fares, CrossCountry is increasing the number of these tickets on each of its trains. And for those who need to travel at the last minute, Advance tickets can even be purchased on the day of travel up to ten minutes before a train^s departure when purchased at www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

These Advance tickets will be valid on all rail services west of Exeter for travel to or from Exeter St Davids station, including on any road replacement services around the area where rail travel is currently not possible.

CrossCountry^s Managing Director, Andy Cooper, said: ^We understand the difficult circumstances many people now find themselves in because of the impact of recent storms in the South West. Travel is a necessity for many and the unprecedented damage at Dawlish has left some customers feeling that rail journeys are not an option. We are determined to ensure that anyone wanting to travel to or from the South West is still able to do so, and can do at the cheapest price possible.

^CrossCountry are providing a simple travel solution for those affected by these dreadful storms, to reconnect with their colleagues, friend and families. People wanting to travel to and from West Devon and Cornwall for both business and leisure, need only buy a CrossCountry Advance ticket for Exeter St Davids station and travel for free for the part of their journey in the Westcountry.^

On Monday 3 February the exceptionally high tide and storms washed away parts of the sea wall carrying the main railway lines at Dawlish in Devon. Network Rail estimates repairs to the line could take six to eight weeks and special timetables for rail users will operate during this period. Full details of train times and connecting road transport through areas where trains are unable to operate are available from National Rail Enquiries at www.nationalrail.co.uk or by calling 08457 48 49 50.

Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7746



View Profile
« Reply #276 on: February 11, 2014, 15:57:48 »

Who is going to pay for all these hotel rooms?

If it's truly a "necessity" and the trains can't run - that is really the only alternative, or driving - otherwise it isn't a "necessity" (check the definition - lets not exaggerate)

Quote
And who are you to judge whether it's necessary for someone to get to work? Do you draw the line at Doctors?  Engineers? Policemen? Firemen? Social workers? Cleaners?

The employer and employee together. We're in a different world where transport will grind to a halt coz of the weather and we need to engage different mindsets, the sooner the better.

Quote
"Most people will take a day off with a heavy cold" - presumably you have evidence for this or are you just speculating?

 - I'm not going to answer that. I don't believe you truly think pax don't do this. I'm not saying I don't blame them for doing so though - just that it's not impossible to take a day or so off work without everything grinding to a halt.

Quote
No-one is saying that its the fault of the transport companies but it doesn't mean that everyone is able to kick back and forget about work........I wonder how your Boss feels about it? (if you have one?)

Who said anything about forgetting work? - read back & I said firms need to think along the lines of remote working....(unless of course you have no utilities at home coz of the weather....) - but as I said, the few that are that hard done by surely can be excused by their firms.

Quote
..........in either case I doubt you've ever operated in a commercial environment judging by your comments which are breathtakingly naive at best, or as I've said perhaps just trolling?

Not at all. I can't believe everyone just thinks this is a complete one-off? It's happened twice this winter already, and all I see are heads in the sand.

....that's just a load of anecdotal speculation, rhetoric and ambiguity - from where I'm sitting mate there is only one bloke with his head in the sand, and that's you.
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #277 on: February 11, 2014, 16:15:16 »

You'll see - if this weather keeps up, there'll be no trains across much of the South....
Logged
Network SouthEast
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 492



View Profile
« Reply #278 on: February 11, 2014, 16:16:40 »

With most services cancelled they can hardly pleed lack of rolling stock !
And I am not convinced that slow speed operation in water just below the rail top would really cause damage.
On these two points above:

lack of rolling stock
On an ordinary night there are only a handful of Turbos outstationed at Paddington. The vast majority of the fleet are at either Reading or Oxford. So when access south of Oxford is limited and access east of Reading is limited we end up in the situation where there are quite a few spare units, but getting them through these affected areas is a mission in the first place.

slow speed
The 5mph water rule is not because of damage the train might do to the track or the water to the train, it is because of the risk of the ballast giving way. You then potentially have a train crash on your hands. The other problem is that even if water is low enough for trains to pass at line speed, as we've seen since the weekend at Maidenhead, the water level is short circuiting the track circuits causing the signals to revert to danger. And this means trains being talked passed individual signals at danger by the signallers and even Temporary Block Working.

Points to remember when comparing today with yesteryear:

- fewer trains ran
- people commuted shorter distances
- train crashes were regular, often every few months

Out on the ground I have to say I have been impressed with Network Rail's response to the flooding. They really seem to be pulling out all of the stops to get trains moving and repair the infrastructure. I really don't see how anyone could prevent ground water rising to the surface? Is anyone here a civil engineer that knows of a solution?

I do agree that the railway has a hopeless PR (Public Relations) machine. It's all very well sticking a photo online of a flooded signal cabinet, but it is a shame there is no meaningful explanation given as to why these things are problematic. I suspect if it wasn't for a few of us in the know, the majority of forum members here would be none-the-wiser too.
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #279 on: February 11, 2014, 16:24:02 »

FGW (First Great Western) were also saying the first time shuttles ran OXF» (Oxford - next trains)-DID» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) that there are electrics around the axles, and waves created going faster than 5mph washed water into them...thus damaging the train requiring repair.

Hence they won't run all their stock through the water.

As I said - which is better - a couple of days-ish like this, or a whole load of units out for weeks?
Logged
BBM
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 634


View Profile
« Reply #280 on: February 11, 2014, 16:35:32 »

The reporter on the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) lunchtime News today explained very simply and succinctly how TBW (Temporary Block Working) is working on the GWML (Great Western Main Line) at White Waltham so that was good PR (Public Relations).

However rather worse PR concerns the fact that today there is nothing in or out of Paddington (either fast or slow) which is calling at Twyford. Presumably the idea is that Twyford-Paddington passengers are meant to go via Reading? If that's the case then why not put up that advice on the FGW (First Great Western) website? I kind of feel that Twyford (and Henley Branch) passengers have fallen down an FGW black hole today.
Logged
stebbo
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 445


View Profile
« Reply #281 on: February 11, 2014, 16:35:42 »

As I understand it and my knowledge of engineering is not that detailed (I'm not an engineer), HSTs (High Speed Train) can't run through the water as the electric traction motors are suspended on the bogies thus making them susceptible to water damage. Turbos and Adelantes are mechanically driven with the engine and gearbox suspended in the body of the train, final drive to the axles being by mechanical propshaft therefore less susceptible to water damage.

Anyone with more detailed knowledge care to comment.
Logged
ray951
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 461


View Profile
« Reply #282 on: February 11, 2014, 16:41:58 »

FGW (First Great Western) were also saying the first time shuttles ran OXF» (Oxford - next trains)-DID» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) that there are electrics around the axles, and waves created going faster than 5mph washed water into them...thus damaging the train requiring repair.

Hence they won't run all their stock through the water.

As I said - which is better - a couple of days-ish like this, or a whole load of units out for weeks?
Frankly I think this is a load of hogwash. If a train can't withstand running through a few mm of water at 5mph for a very short distance then it isn't fit for purpose. Do they not get wet when it rains, or damp when left in sidings for the weekend or when they go through the carriage wash?

Anyway I see that FGW/NR» (Network Rail - home page) have obviously taken the comments on board as they appear to have introduced a half-hourly shuttle between Oxford and Didcot.
I am glad they have kept the trains running but at a lost to understand why we have to go from 6 trains in hour each way to only 1 especially as the volume of freight doesn't appear to have been reduced (and are they not impacted by the water Wink)
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #283 on: February 11, 2014, 16:48:55 »

Whilst the weather has indeed been much worse than usual, I do not feel that the railway industry as a whole has come out of this very well.

I am well aware that that much of the problem is weather damage to infrastructure and is therefore a network rail problem and not a TOC (Train Operating Company) problem.

It is only about a year since the last bout of "exceptional" flooding, and the rail industry needs to accept that this is rapidly becoming the "new normal"
Rail travel ought be encouraged for enviromental reasons, but this wont be easy with continual weather related closures.

I agree with you partly but no completely.  Some of the issues are "railway issues" some are beyond the railway's control.  The sea wall at Dawlish is a railway issue.  Hopefully that will be solved by the rail industry (better late than never you might say).  But the flooding at Bridgewater is not something that the rail industry can prevent on its own.  

But there is a "new normal" and NR» (Network Rail - home page) and TOCS need to adapt to that.   The network is vast and it can't all be done at once, but how about some new industry standards for weather resilience are adopted just like we have disabled access standards.  It is difficult for the railway to replace a bridge at a station without making it wheel chair accessible.   Maybe it should be equally difficult for NR to install a new signalling cabinet without putting it on slits or raised up on an island.    
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #284 on: February 11, 2014, 16:53:47 »

Can't disagree with that, but it all costs money & the nation doesn't have enough for everything everyone wants to spend money on.

Put up the tax rate by 1% then? (for all flooding issues)

Anyway I see that FGW (First Great Western)/NR» (Network Rail - home page) have obviously taken the comments on board as they appear to have introduced a half-hourly shuttle between Oxford and Didcot.

Nowt to do with our comments, the water level has dropped.

btw - anyone seen the large hole in the A2 in Kent?  Shocked
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 ... 17 18 [19] 20 21 ... 67
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page