Letter To Osborne Calls For Funding/Review To Halt Bus Decline

[whole diary]

[Lee]

29 organisations sign letter to Chancellor George Osborne calling on him to provide emergency funding for bus services, and a review aimed at halting their decline - http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/blogs/bus/The_Chancellor_must_give_buses_the_funding_they_need_and_deserve

[trainer]

I think this is a very important matter for many in rural areas and I hope the Chancellor will listen.  The fact that I will soon qualify for a bus pass does not bias my opinion in any way. 

[Lee]

Rural Services Network warn of devastating impact on rural communities of further bus service cuts - http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/bus-service-cuts-devastating-impact-rural/story-20799529-detail/story.html

[Cynthia]

This would be a complete nightmare for many elderly people living in rural areas.  I had been living in a village about 13 miles from Launceston until three years ago.  There were three buses a week, on which many of the locals without cars were dependent.  You couldn't do your grocery shop online, as the town centre supermarkets considered it 'uneconomical' to call at rural locations.

[thetrout]

I said this in the Bath Bus Users Group Meeting yesterday... Having a disabled bus pass is one thing, having the buses to use it on is quite another.

First Bus pulled the 30 service in Frome on Saturdays completely. This was a well patronised service... Except nearly all passengers were ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) Pass Holders so didn't pay a "cash" fare.

Where my parents live just outside of Frome they had 2 bus services a week. They now have none

To me it's a serious issue. Those who have their own Cars will not see it like I do. Just stop and ask yourself something first. If you could never use your car again... How would you cope? The answer is not always the one people want to hear... I hate to say it like this... But welcome to my world

[ellendune]

To me it's a serious issue. Those who have their own Cars will not see it like I do. Just stop and ask yourself something first. If you could never use your car again... How would you cope? The answer is not always the one people want to hear... I hate to say it like this... But welcome to my world

Seems to me that this is not of your making or First Bus.  It is the politicians who have decided to give free bus travel but then refuse to fund it.  First is not a charity and car drivers do not expect to drive their car for free.  If the country cannot afford free bus travel for ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) Pass Holders then don't make if free.  Make it reduced fare perhaps.  Surely a reduced fare would be better than no bus service.

[Cynthia]

The easy answer to your question, thetrout, is that I don't know how I'd cope without my car at the moment.  I CAN do many journeys by bus or train if I make the effort to be a bit more organised, but it's the slightly-out-of the-ordinary journeys that I would find very difficult, like taking Echo to the kennels if I have to be out for the day, and collecting her afterwards,  visiting people who live in non-public-transport served areas, the list would get tedious if I continued with it.  Then there's the argument about shopping, which lots of people do online nowadays.  However, I'm always concerned that if we don't use our high street shops, or even those more isolated ones, are they going to go out of business, putting people out of a job?  I can appreciate the difficulties encountered trying to carry shopping onto the bus or train, but yes, I am guilty of overuse of my car.

[Rhydgaled]

Indeed something needs to be done to reverse (halt isn't enough, it's gone too far already) the decline in bus services.

Also, I was thinking of starting a new topic to ask a question, but it kinda seems slightly relevant here. What are the conditions of the 'get you there' guarantee provided by rail services? Does it apply only if you have missed the last train of the day, or does a missed connection which leaves you unable to proceed towards your destination for over two hours also require the operator responsible to provide a taxi? This question was triggered by this story (extract follows):

On the deserted platform, a woman is in tears. She has missed the last connecting bus to Aberystwyth. That bus left on time at 19:07. No one can help her. Arriva Trains Wales is not responsible for missed bus connections. Bus operators don^t have to wait for trains.

Now, there are alot of things that need to be done to sort out bus-rail integration, but the 'get you there' guarantee is one of them. It seems to me that full through-ticketing is not necessary to achive that, all that is needed is proof of final destination. Therefore, if when buying rail tickets you could obtain a ticket-like card stating your final destination at no extra cost, you could extend the 'get you there' guarantee to buses.

If such a mutli-model guarantee existed, and was publicised, wouldn't that boost public transport quite a bit? I'm sure there are potential passengers out there who have a car because they don't feel they can rely on public transport. The lack of Sunday buses (in my area the two local councils have both scrapped all subsidy for Sunday buses (except the summer tourist services along the coastal path)) is of course also in factor in not being able to rely on public transport.

[Lee]

With apologies to Rhydgaled, whose post it isn't directly relevant to, here is a fascinating article that will be of interest to trainer, thetrout, ellendune and Cynthia regarding the debate they are having - http://ptegblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/are-we-ready-for-the-baby-boomers/

[trainer]

Interesting article, Lee.  Thanks for pointing it out.  The question of us 'baby boomers' covers a wide range of social provision, but confining myself to the thread theme, I would point out that where buses are necessary and the best option for public transport (I always prefer a rail option where possible), there will be an increasing number of people who might like to use them, but who have been led by politicians to believe that the bus will be a free-to-use facility.  However, as has been suggested above, buses are not free to operate.

Those of us who might prefer a bus are actually very few. Walking perhaps up to half a mile to a bus stop in all weathers, waiting in hope for the timetabled vehicle to appear, an extended journey time, a return dictated by the timetable and often no evening option all mitigate against the expensive but comfortable choice of the car. Added to this we all subsidise socially provided routes through Council Tax and older bus users are as inclined to vote against anyone raising taxes for such purposes as anyone else (Cynthia and I probably being an exception these days).

Travelling in darkest Wiltshire last weekend (Marshfield, Castle Combe, Chippenham area), I was struck by the ancient and uninviting vehicles provided for the bus services to the sparsely populated villages from the metropolis of Chippenham, the size of the garages attached to many houses and the expensive cars to be seen.  There seems little attempt to be attractive in these places, probably because even a super-modern bus will not tempt someone who can afford property in some of the villages and hamlets to abandon their BMW for an at best two hourly service.

That leaves those who cannot choose to drive for public transport.  Some will be able to afford taxis (they have the wherewithal for such), but many are, to use the vernacular 'stuffed'. 

My town of Clevedon (not comparable with the Wiltshire example I know) has the best service to Bristol it has ever had with reasonable fares. Just don't try to travel quickly after 7pm, Sundays or to another destination.  When my bus pass comes, I will be using it for leisure purposes only unless Bristol is my destination.  Once I am too infirm to drive, I will have to use taxis or use friends for lifts to get anywhere outside the town when time is of the essence (e.g 1hr to Weston-s-Mare by bus - 15mins in the car and no direct service to the hospital)

Re-reading this, I sound too negative.  A fast, reliable bus can work and I would pay (have paid) for it in taxes or fares.  I wonder how affordable such a thing is, though?

[chuffed]

Trainer has, as always raised some very valid points.

As someone who has never had a car, I think that the main difference between the car and the non car user is one of attitude about how you organise your life. With a car, you can decide what you want to do, where to go, and within reason, just do it. The car means the world is your oyster ( no pun intended!)

Without a car, you always have the question 'is it feasible' nagging in the back of your mind. One late bus, one missed connection and the whole thing can go belly up. You cannot rely on Plan A ...you always have to have a Plan B ...and sometimes C, D, E. The advent of the internet has made travel planning generally that much simpler, but sometimes it doesn't seem that way when confronted by bewildering train fare structures in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

 For real challenges with maximum frustration try bus travel out of Rome into the more rural parts of Italy. First you have to locate your bus station which is not as crazy as it sounds. So often the bus station' is just a series of stops merged with the general nose to tail traffic that collects outside a metro station Then find your bus stop... no numbers destinations or timetables of course.Then locate a tabac where they sell bus tickets ..usually at least half a mile away hidden away down a side street. Oh, and Cynthia ...don't even think of taking Echo! I guarantee that once you have experienced COTRAL or SEPSA, First will seem like bus heaven !

[Trowres]

Brighton & Hove Buses ... operate over 280 buses on a comprehensive network of services in and around Sussex. They have consistently grown the market for bus travel in the city and surrounding areas with an increase of 4.4% in 2012, and passenger journeys more than doubled from 22.5m in 1993 to 49.3m in 2012.

This consistent growth has been achieved by working in partnership with Brighton & Hove City Council, alongside many other key stakeholders in the city. This calendar year they have invested ^7m in 38 new buses to continue to improve services for their customers and improve air quality, and in response to customer suggestions, have added extra journeys to improve a number of services from this autumn and next spring.

Brighton and Hove residents already make more bus journeys than anywhere in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) outside of London. In 2013 they achieved a passenger satisfaction rate of 91% and won the Coach Operator of Year Award, and turnover was ^59,360,000 with a profit of ^7,138,000

In the Brighton and Hove area they work in close partnership with Brighton & Hove Council as well as the neighbouring County Councils. They have been pursuing a strategy of encouraging more use of public transport and have introduced traffic management measures in the city with bus lanes and other priority measures for buses as well as improvements to bus stop areas.

They will continue to invest over ^3 million each year on new buses and coaches to ensure their customers receive the benefits of the latest standards of comfort. As well as their revolutionary flat fare system, there are excellent deals available to meet the needs of children, teenagers, students and commuters and they are always seeking ways to improve their range of services.

http://www.hays.co.uk/jobs/bhbuses/index.htm#.UyNi3ianw5s

Brighton & Hove Buses is part of Go-Ahead (as is Wilts & Dorset).

One must ask, if the above results are possible in Brighton, why are they not achieved more commonly elsewhere?
There are some places where there are still good, high frequency bus services, even in and between relatively small towns. However in so many cases the services have decayed to the level of "last-resort only". It's a disgrace how, since the 1985 Transport Act, there has been so little (outside London) attention to the defects of the bus offering.

[Cynthia]

I had to smile at the 'baby boomer' article - on which planet does Rebecca Fuller live, with her inference that my generation are used to 'having it all and not settling for second best'; the same one as 2-Jags Prescott I presume, who thinks 'we're all middle class now'.     I certainly can't afford to '....take a drive just for the sake of it, and enjoy a scenic rather than direct route'.  I have a set amount of money put by for petrol per month, and once that's gone, the car has to stay on the drive until the next month!

Ellendune, I entirely agree that a reduced fare would be better than no bus service.  I don't know how the bus companies are expected to provide a service AND make a profit when, on some routes most of the passengers are travelling on a free pass.  I am thinking back to the bus service in Cornwall I mentioned where this was the case, and the company that had been providing the bus service gave it up not long after the instigation of the free passes, as the service became uneconomical.  I'm wondering whether the area still has any buses at all on the route.

Rhydgaled; the tale in quotes is enough to put many people off public transport!  Perhaps particularly lone female travellers.  A sense of vulnerability is enough to make you reach for the car keys, knowing you're probably a bit safer in your lockable metal box, and likely to reach your destination at the appointed time.

Chuffed; I shan't be travelling in Rome any time soon, I'm now pleased to report!

Dr. Beeching thought he was being very forward-looking in scrapping so many branch railway lines; anticipating that car travel would be the preferred mode of transport in the future.  Little did he know how demand would revert to the railways.  (Or indeed, buses).  It makes me fume when I think of the cost that must have been involved in the decommissioning of all these lines, as the engines and rolling stock that were scrapped?      I think the merchant bankers should have their bonuses taxed at a much higher rate, and corporate tax evasion jumped upon from a great height, so that public services can be funded properly.  Oops, little bit of politics there.....

[grahame]

I don't know how the bus companies are expected to provide a service AND make a profit when, on some routes most of the passengers are travelling on a free pass.

Do remember that a "free" pass is only described as such because it's free to the user / at the time of use.   The journey is counted, and the bus company is paid by the local council for each such journey out of council tax, all be it at a rate that's usually just under a half of the adult single fare.

It means that "commercial" services are in effect subsidised, and that "subsidised" services are in effect double subsidised.   And it means that to maximise profit, a bus company's tactics may include raising their regular passenger rates to the point they loose regular passenger and regular passenger income to increase "free pass" income - if three quarters of passengers are on passes that makes sense for them.   And it means that they can do this even on routes with multiple operators, since free pass users don't know / care / want to save their council money by waiting for the cheaper bus that may well be just behind.

I understand from comments the other day that we're looking in Wiltshire at about 2.4 million pounds for bus subsidy, and about 2.4 million pounds for concessionary fare payment per annum.

It makes me fume when I think of the cost that must have been involved in the decommissioning of all these lines, as the engines and rolling stock that were scrapped?

But I have seen in quoted that the cost of maintaining / operating those lines from 1966 to 2016 - 50 years - would have far outstripped the price involved in decommissioning and recommissioning.  You can't just let a line lie fallow and then bring it back to life cheaply - take a look at Cambridge to St Ives, March to Wisbech, Ebbw Vale, Borders, Wareham to Corfe Castle, Frome to Radstock, Stoke-on-trent to  etc.   Tracks left fallow rot away, even double lines singled have embankments that may erode over the years and engineering works be replaced double by single. Look at the north and south Cotswolds lines, and consider the bridge over the Avon at Staverton on the TransWilts.   On rolling stock, would it really have been in useful condition after 50 years?  Take a trip to Norchard ... so, in summary, you may fume but behind the scenes (IF the railways weren't needed for 50 years) you've probably not lost too much - and who would have gambled on a renaissance anyway?

[Rhydgaled]

Rhydgaled; the tale in quotes is enough to put many people off public transport!  Perhaps particularly lone female travellers.  A sense of vulnerability is enough to make you reach for the car keys

Indeed, but I hasten to add that you are safe from such problems if the only public transport you are using is the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail network. I would however like to know just how far rail's 'get you there' guarantee goes, does it apply only if you have missed the last train of the day? Or does a missed connection which leaves you unable to proceed towards your destination for over two hours also require the operator responsible to provide a taxi?

I don't know how the bus companies are expected to provide a service AND make a profit when, on some routes most of the passengers are travelling on a free pass.

Do remember that a "free" pass is only described as such because it's free to the user / at the time of use.   The journey is counted, and the bus company is paid by the local council for each such journey out of council tax, all be it at a rate that's usually just under a half of the adult single fare.

It means that "commercial" services are in effect subsidised, and that "subsidised" services are in effect double subsidised.   And it means that to maximise profit, a bus company's tactics may include raising their regular passenger rates to the point they loose regular passenger and regular passenger income to increase "free pass" income

I've heard some interesting stories about Concessionary Travel Passes. Not sure if they are true, but one was that Arriva broke their 40 service (Aberystwyth - Carmarthen) into two (40 and 40c, with the number changing at Lampeter) so they could get pass holders to rescan at Lampeter and hence increase pass revenue. The other is that some "commercial" services actually cost more subsidy than "subsidised" ones. The story there was a subsidised service which was provided as a free bus, free to everyone that is. Then a "commercial" operator decided to introduce their own service, charging fares of course, and the free service had to be scrapped. The Conncessionary Travel Pass revenue on the "commertial" service was greater than the subsidy for the previous 'free to everyone' service.