Thames Valley signalling problems - big delays - July 2014

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

THe fitrst thing someone of that ilk would do is to spit on the camera lens....wouldn't be much use in reality

[SDS]

Im all for all customer facing staff to carry cameras and also make it very obvious they are cameras as well. Easier to prosecute the abusive customers. Spitting on the lens would still be an offence, and can be very easily wiped off.

If you, the customer, start respecting the staff instead of treating them as something you've stepped in and stop preaching "I have a gold card wipe my backside" then maybe the staff might actually care for you. If something goes wrong and a passenger comes up to a staff member and starts preaching about how they pay the wages, have a gold card, etc etc they are likely to only do the bare minimum for them.
If you are polite to them, not abusive, then it is likely they will go out of their way to help.

TaplowGreen
It seems from your posts that you are one of the people who would treat staff with contempt to get your own way, you are the only one who mentions paying the wages of staff. If thats one thing that seriously narks off staff that's the "I pay your wages" comment, and you wonder why staff have to respect for customers. Im sure you do not pay in excess of ^25k a year for a ticket, so as such you do not pay for just the wages of one individual member of staff.

[ChrisB]

Im all for all customer facing staff to carry cameras and also make it very obvious they are cameras as well. Easier to prosecute the abusive customers. Spitting on the lens would still be an offence, and can be very easily wiped off.

Still?.....what offence would that be? (serious Q, not referring to any abuse here, and NOT generally spitting at the person wearing it, but directly at the camera)

[Network SouthEast]

Spitting on person = common assault
Spitting on camera = criminal damage

Merseyrail have used body cameras for years, with high successful prosecution rates as a result.

[NickB]

I'm not condoning rude behaviour by anyone, but I have long thought that passengers are frustrated by the lack of adequate compensation for delays and lack of service.  If a passenger is inconvenienced but knows that they will receive adequate compensation after the event then they are more likely to go upon their merry way without hassling staff, or at least stand grumply but in silence.  In my view TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s hide behind their frontline staff in this regard.
If you take TFL^▸ (Transport for London) as an example how often do you see their staff being hassled and abused?  I'm sure it happens but I've never seen it, or been tempted to involve myself in 'discussions'.  Instead you can get the full cost of your ticket back for a 15min delay.  Simples.

[ChrisB]

oooh, I have. And I have serious concerns about the use of the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) as a 'weapon', even after simple disagreements.

Witnessed twice now....

Disagreement (no verbal or physical threats made - purely some disagreement between (over-zealous on one occasion) platform staff and passenger. Both resulted in Staff member radioing for BTP. Next thing - tannoy announcement for BTP member to attend. Passenger arrested regardless & interviewed off-site. Offered myself as witness both times. Call from BTP later. After my quick phone interview (obviously backing up passenger's story), turns out both passengers had been de-arrested, with no further action.

On asking the BTP officer whether they felt their time had been wasted, they both agreed. Suggested that in itself was a criminal offence, both BTP officers took my point, and I suspect TfL^» (Transport for London - about) staff are shortly to be reminded that the BTP are for staff safety - fine if they are physically / verbally threatened, but NOT for sorting out staff/passenger disagreements.

Oh, that was twice in a little over a week at two different stations. The officers said it was happening on an almost daily basis on the tube. Hope it doesn't catch on on the railways

[a-driver]

On asking the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) officer whether they felt their time had been wasted, they both agreed. Suggested that in itself was a criminal offence, both BTP officers took my point, and I suspect TfL^» (Transport for London - about) staff are shortly to be reminded that the BTP are for staff safety - fine if they are physically / verbally threatened, but NOT for sorting out staff/passenger disagreements.

I kind of disagree, if I feel my safety is being jeopardised I'd call for the BTP rather then wait to be assaulted or abused first

[ChrisB]

If a member of the public was in the same position, it would be seen as I stated if one called 999.

[ChrisB]

In the two situations I witnessed - as I said, no raised voice, no verbal or physical threat, purely disagreements.

The BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) were in my (and the BTP felt the same) view, being used as a weapon against these customers, the staff members well knowing that it results in arrest & questions, and a big waste of customers time. Just to get their own back. It's happened to me in the past too, and if it ever happens again, I shall be pressing a complaint through the BTP that there time was deliberately wasted. And with LU against said member of staff.

It is plainly unfair on customers to have to go through automatic arrest like that.

[TaplowGreen]

In response to a few recent posts on here can I just say that I would never condone rudeness, shouting, sarcasm, contempt, condescencion, threats or any other antisocial behaviour towards railway staff under any circumstances, no matter what the delays.

I have worked in Customer Service/Client Management from very junior up to very senior levels in various sectors in both Private and Public sector for over 25 years often in circumstances far more fraught than on a railway platform, so I have a good idea of the challenges that both side face.

In my (almost 20 years) as both a commuter and long distance rail traveller I have seen pockets of excellence from individuals going the extra mile to help, as well as poor service ranging from outright rudeness to indifference - overall, I would say that Customer Service in the rail industry is below average - I think this is in large part due to public service organisational culture - ie you've got no choice but to use (for example) FGW^▸ (First Great Western) so like it or lump it, and a failure to appreciate that there is more to good Customer service than just dealing with complaints - there is no motivation to use it to enhance the customer experience as there is no real competition or incentive to do so.....there are also a lot of hidebound old fashined attuitudes to customers  which really have no place in 2014 and would not be tolerated in a more dynamic environment....expecting your customers to "respect" you is a moot point - politeness and reasonable behaviour should be the norm, but customers are paying for a service and those working in public service industries have chosen a role where they are going to face frustrated customers at times when that service isn't delivered and really need to be up to dealing with this professionally or perhaps ask themselves whether they are in the right job?

Anyway, lets hope we don't have too many more days like Monday and that FGW/NR^» (Network Rail - home page) learn the lessons........not overly hopeful on that I have to say!

[a-driver]

In the two situations I witnessed - as I said, no raised voice, no verbal or physical threat, purely disagreements.

The BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) were in my (and the BTP felt the same) view, being used as a weapon against these customers, the staff members well knowing that it results in arrest & questions, and a big waste of customers time. Just to get their own back. It's happened to me in the past too, and if it ever happens again, I shall be pressing a complaint through the BTP that there time was deliberately wasted. And with LU against said member of staff.

It is plainly unfair on customers to have to go through automatic arrest like that.

I'm not going to claim this didn't happen, I wasn't there etc but when we call the BTP out to an incident, even if its just a heated argument or a drunk and disorderly all they normally do is have a word and try to diffuse the situation.  Even on occasions when we've wanted individuals or groups removed from the station or arrested they haven't done so!!  In 15 years I've seen the BTP make two arrests.  One punch up between passengers on a station and the second time is when a drunk person couldn't get a seat, started verbally abusing the CH, starting smashing up the buffet car, assaulted the TM^‡(resolve) and then decided to sit down on the tracks in front of my train.... and even then it took them a while to finally arrest him!!
Even if there's been an assault of some description the BTP don't just show up tasers armed and arrest someone straight away on the instruction of a member of staff, again that's my experience, you've obviously had other and I'm not doubting that.
Everytime they make an arrest its paperwork for them, if they can avoid it they will sometimes to our dismay!

[ChrisB]

I suspect its different on TfL^» (Transport for London - about) and the railway? That's my experience at least. Both cases - at Baker Street & Liverpool Street, both were summarily arrested and taken off. Of course release means you are somewhere just off Oxford Street....

In the case I was involved directly in a while ago now, there is a Managers office at this station & we were both taken & separated there. No arrest. It turns out the staff member had previous for complaining...

[a-driver]

I suspect its different on TfL^» (Transport for London - about) and the railway? That's my experience at least. Both cases - at Baker Street & Liverpool Street, both were summarily arrested and taken off. Of course release means you are somewhere just off Oxford Street....

In the case I was involved directly in a while ago now, there is a Managers office at this station & we were both taken & separated there. No arrest. It turns out the staff member had previous for complaining...

Probably eyeing a few days off with stress!!!

[NickB]

Common assault, which is the usual offence selected, requires a compulsary arrest.  For the record, common assault doesn't just mean that someone hit someone, but is valid if someone has cause to feel threatened.

[Electric train]

Yes CAT scanning is done.  The team doing the piling would know the cables are there a trial hole will have been dug.  With the age of the cables a direct strike may not be needed to cause them to fail.

To be quite honest with you, if buried cable has been located there isn't much excuse for damaging them.

Are the pilings being installed by rotary or percussion methods? If either of those methods, considering the depth of the piling is so shallow, disturbs these signalling cables then in my opinion (and yes I do know quite a bit about piling and drilling boreholes...) the cables must be in an alarmingly delicate state of repair!!

I am not sure the signalling issue at Twyford was Electrification  related, the GW^▸ (Great Western) Electrification works are not that far East yet and Crossrail is between Maidenhead and Burnham.  Unless it was trial hole digging that caused it.

The piles used are steel tubular dia approx. 750mm length 5 metres upwards, they are driven by a vibration manipulator fitted to an RRV^▸ (Road Rail Vehicle), and that this cannot drive in they bring out a bigger "hammer"

Electrification is nearly all the way from Didcot to Tilehurst with stantions already erected.  They have been vegetation clearing through Sonning Cutting the past few days in readiness for piling.  Plus there is the odd piece of piling in the Taplow to Burnham area with upgrade work and additional piling carried out on the existing electrified sections from Hayes

I know, the Crossrail electrification piling is only as far West as 23 or 24 mile post and the GW electrification piling is on as far east as Kennet Junction around 34 mile post, there is approx. 10 mile gap between piling, it could due to trial pits or it could be totally un related to electrification.


As a general comment about -

No one not matter what business they are employed in should have to put up with verbal or physical abuse for a customer or client; it is not the employee on the train, platform, ticket office, barrier line that has caused the delays to the service most of the time they are doing the very best to find out what is going on and to assist people who are less able to assist themselves (and does include drunkards in suits)

No one in the rail industry sets about to see what chaos they can cause to the travelling public