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Author Topic: Hot trains  (Read 25329 times)
a-driver
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« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2014, 14:01:46 »

My statement was based on readings from my own weather station in Oxfordshire (currently reading 26.3 and shaded, of course).  If you're going to quibble over a degree or two then so be it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the average temperature over the summer is one of the highest ever.  Constant high temperatures stress systems.

My weather station, in full sun, recorded 42.8 yesterday!! 

Don't forget, when it comes to Turbos you need to take into consideration the huge amount of heat given off by the engines.  If you've stood next to one you'll know what I mean!
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grahame
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« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2014, 17:18:27 »

.... and in any case it's a pretty poor aircon system that breaks down once the temperature rises ........it's the whole point of it, whether its 25 or 28 degrees.....it's sort of symptomatic of the lack of robustness and resilience of the railway industry as a whole, unreliable trains, signals, staff etc?

This forum was set up on the back of a lack of appropriate service - and that was overcrowded trains that had been shortened, train schedules that had been slashed so that one previously-busy commuter route (at least) no longer had what the users regarded as a peak train, other services cut back so that one station has just 4 carriages instead of 12 into it's commuter hub in the peak hour, and services so likely to be cancelled that we had to extend the axes of our graphs to 50% cancelled.

We moved rapidly (we didn't think it was rapid at the time!) to a situation where some of these issues were sorted out.  And we came to understand how other issues were systemic and longstanding and couldn't / wouldn't be cured quickly.   Rail is a long term industry, and if you plan a long term industry based on a conservative forecast of 0.8% but then get compound 8.0%, you've got a problem - over 10 years you expected to grow from 100 to 108 passengers, but you've actually grown to twice that - 216 passengers, and you can't just turn up the production line speed at a train factory and press the "widen" button to add more tracks overnight.

Particular problems over recent times have been in the Thames Valley - London to Reading.  I recall being told that there are 60 different types of point motor in use in the UK (United Kingdom) ... and no less than 30 of them could be found on the London to Reading section.   What a nightmare to maintain, and to fix if something goes wrong.  And problems over the last few days and not for the first time on the TransWilts ... but the system of signalling from Thingley to Westbury is so old that the signalman from Swindon has to phone up Westbury to ask to send a train, and the equipment at Thingley is again rather old and due to be replaced.  For robustness and resilience, standard signalling needs to be put in there,  the junction relayed as a double junction which provides a refuge for a train waiting for the line clear of the main line, and allowing other trains to pass.

But (I'm getting to a point at last!) the staff for the most part are doing their very best with the systems they have, sometimes very much in the face of hostile customers;  we certainly should not be lumping them in with "robustness and resilience" issues.   I was very disappointed indeed when service were cancelled a couple of months back due to lack of staff, but I was more than disappointed - I was shocked - at the reaction of a member of the travelling public who suggested to me that the cancellation was due to a driver not being bothered to get up; said member of the travelling public rapidly changed his tune when I asked whether he really thought a driver would risk his career by being unavailable because he wanted the day off  ... I suggested it could have been illness, and that the customer wouldn't want higher fares to have lots of spare 'just in case' drivers.  And indeed it turned out to be a rostering error ...

My point it - we should not lump in the staff with the criticism.  The more of them I get to know, the more of them I admire.  The more I see the system they have to deal with, the more I respect and admire them.  Sometimes perverse decisions - or rather apparently perverse decisions - are explained and what looked odd becomes obvious. And at other times there's little chance to explain because it would hold up a train.

A big "thank you" then to the operational staff.  A bigger "thank you" to those who go over and above in order to post here.   And a request to posters - ask, criticise the system, enquire robustly ... but for goodness sake don't alienate the very people who DO go above and beyond to explain to us here!

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johoare
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« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2014, 22:02:59 »


Air Con on HST (High Speed Train) stock and Turbos will never be a reliable system because you're trying to fit a modern air con system into something that was designed 20+ years ago.
You can't start cutting holes out of a train to fit a more reliable system because doing so weakens the structure of the train.
You're also limited by clearances on the train and by the trains electrical supply.


The air con on HSTs works pretty much all the time in my experience..

The Class 166s came with air con didn't they (and less opening windows obviously)?
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a-driver
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« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2014, 00:21:54 »

Quote

The air con on HSTs (High Speed Train) works pretty much all the time in my experience..

The Class 166s came with air con didn't they (and less opening windows obviously)?

Class 166s did come with AC but the system required replacing when parts became obsolete and the refrigerant used became illegal. 

I've always found HST AC fairly good but I imagine, as on most trains, it won't be as effective on a heavily loaded train.  Heat output for one person is around 400 BTU, a heavily loaded train therefore has a significant heat loading in such a small area.
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BBM
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« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2014, 09:18:26 »

What are 180s like these days for efficient AC? I've certainly had some very comfortable cool journeys on them in the past but the only time I've used one more recently in the heat was around this time last year and it wasn't good. The TM(resolve) did however apologise for the conditions that day so maybe it was a one-off failure?
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2014, 10:42:02 »

Air-Con in 180s is, for the most part, very good.  Some would say too good.  The exception is the vestibule areas where it is very poor on virtually all sets.  HST (High Speed Train) air-con is also generally reliable, though I watched the maintenance technician scrambling around underneath one of the coaches of the 17:22 PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-HFD» (Hereford - next trains) last night because it had stopped working.

Both systems have advantages over the Turbo units in that the 180s are a more modern train designed with a proper air-con system from the start with no saloon windows and doors which don't open within the saloon area letting the warm air in.  HSTs benefit from the same sealed windows, and if the door is working the saloon is separated from the outside air at all times.  Also, HSTs usually have at least one engine switched on powering the train supply (or, if not they are on a shore supply) so the air-con is running constantly.  Turbo units have a many more occasions throughout the day where engines are switched off, for environmental reasons, so the system is shutting down/powering up a lot more often and having to deal with whatever the temperature inside has risen to in the meantime.

Not making excuses, but those all add to the inefficiency of the system.  It's very disappointing that there is no real improvement over last year with reliability, but when you get on a carriage where it is working it makes a huge difference, so hopefully the engineers will be able to fix the reliability - as they have done with the cab cooling system which was just as unreliable last year, but much better this year.
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« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2014, 14:43:44 »

What is difficult to comprehend is the fact they have 24 years to sort out the air-conditioning on 158s.   There are different systems because some TOCs (Train Operating Company) 158s are OK, but the others don't seem to follow.      FGW (First Great Western) and ATW (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC)) are prime examples.
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Timmer
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« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2014, 16:52:13 »

What is difficult to comprehend is the fact they have 24 years to sort out the air-conditioning on 158s.   There are different systems because some TOCs (Train Operating Company) 158s are OK, but the others don't seem to follow.      FGW (First Great Western) and ATW (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC)) are prime examples.
We know that SWT (South West Trains) 158/9s air con is good and I think I've read somewhere that EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about)'s 158s air con is good as well, both Stagecoach TOCs.
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Alan Pettitt
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« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2014, 18:21:07 »

I agree with GrahamE that all the FGW (First Great Western) staff that I come into contact with are absolutely wonderful, but it is a week now since I made the original post on this thread and still all the SWT (South West Trains) 159s air conditioning is working fine and apart from the one occasion that I mentioned a while ago, all the FGW 158s air conditioning is still unserviceable; I am beginning to think that management are not listening, if SWT can keep theirs going why don't FGW send theirs overnight to Salisbury or Eastleigh or wherever the maintenance is done for a bit of TLC (three letter code ). As far as I remember, when the 158s were converted to 159s the only alterations were to seating layout to make a first class area and installation of toilet retention tanks, so if one operator can cope others should be able to. SWT website instructs passengers who notice any problem with air conditioning to report it to staff, I can imagine that if FGW did the same there would be a very long queue at each member of staff. Has anybody tried reporting to the Purple Clothed Ambassadors?
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phile
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« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2014, 18:38:58 »

I think SWT (South West Trains) have a different system rather than FGW (First Great Western) having a U?S one.    Surely FGW (and ATW (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC (Train Operating Company)))) would investigate the procuration of the same system.
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2014, 18:56:02 »

... but it is a week now since I made the original post on this thread and still all the SWT (South West Trains) 159s air conditioning is working fine and apart from the one occasion that I mentioned a while ago, all the FGW (First Great Western) 158s air conditioning is still unserviceable; I am beginning to think that management are not listening, if SWT can keep theirs going why don't FGW send theirs overnight to Salisbury or Eastleigh or wherever the maintenance is done for a bit of TLC (three letter code )....

It's a management thing. Of the top ten most reliable train fleets in the country, SWT alone run five or six. These include the Class 158 and 159 dmus which are more reliable in terms of miles per technical incident than many more modern electric fleets.

SWT can't afford to have trains sitting down on the approaches to Waterloo in the rush hour - so their maintenance approach is consistent whether the depot is Wimbledon, Salisbury, Bournemouth or the Siemens facility at Northam.
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a-driver
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« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2014, 19:54:10 »

... but it is a week now since I made the original post on this thread and still all the SWT (South West Trains) 159s air conditioning is working fine and apart from the one occasion that I mentioned a while ago, all the FGW (First Great Western) 158s air conditioning is still unserviceable; I am beginning to think that management are not listening, if SWT can keep theirs going why don't FGW send theirs overnight to Salisbury or Eastleigh or wherever the maintenance is done for a bit of TLC (three letter code )....

It's a management thing. Of the top ten most reliable train fleets in the country, SWT alone run five or six. These include the Class 158 and 159 dmus which are more reliable in terms of miles per technical incident than many more modern electric fleets.

SWT can't afford to have trains sitting down on the approaches to Waterloo in the rush hour - so their maintenance approach is consistent whether the depot is Wimbledon, Salisbury, Bournemouth or the Siemens facility at Northam.

So they should be reliable.  It's long been said that SWT have more 158s and 159s than they need to cover their daily diagrams helped recently by a number of DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) diagrams that have gone over to EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) operation.
It also explains why SWT can and, in the past, have subleased units to EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about), Northern and FGW. 
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« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2014, 20:08:36 »

I think I can honestly say that so far during this (admittedly brief) hot spell I have yet to get on an evening (local) train from Reading on which the aircon was working..........this despite the windows all being locked shut.......I guess it's one way to lose weight?  Cool
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« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2014, 21:19:49 »

I find the air handling units on the 166 perverse to say the least; in the winter the vent fans are running full blast making the carriages cold, some times too cold and a make lot of noise, in this hot spell the carriages are nice and quite I must admit but that's because the vent fans are not running and the hopper windows are shut.  The 166's cooling plant seems to be effective between -5 C and 10 C 

FGW (First Great Western) wasted money "fixing" the aircon when what they should have done is converted the 166 windows to the 165 type at least the 165's "aircon" works at 70 mph  Grin
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« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2014, 21:47:51 »

I think I can honestly say that so far during this (admittedly brief) hot spell I have yet to get on an evening (local) train from Reading on which the aircon was working..........this despite the windows all being locked shut.......I guess it's one way to lose weight?  Cool

By contrast, I've just travelled on the 19:57 PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-OXF» (Oxford - next trains) and set 166214 has two carriages out of the three with a working system - but the windows were open so most of the benefit was lost.  I reached out for my trusty carriage key and resolved the problem though.
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