"Wrong time on Gloucester station car park meters" (Gloucester Citizen)

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

From the Gloucester Citizen:

Wrong time on Gloucester Train Station parking meters put commuters at risk of fines

COMMUTERS at Gloucester train station were put at risk of large fines when car parking tickets were printed out at the wrong times.

Tickets were printed out incorrectly as the clock on the printing machines was running seven minutes slow.

It meant motorists in the car park faced fines of ^80, even if they had paid correctly for the time they were leaving their cars.

The problem was noticed by commuter Lorna Hardwick, who lives in Eldersfield near Tewkesbury, when she went to collect an advance ticket on Tuesday.

She said: ^Fortunately I only needed to park for 10 minutes while I collected my ticket, but if I stayed any longer I could have faced a charge of ^80.

^There are a lot of threatening notices about penalty charges at the station now and people could have been liable to face these unfair fines.

^There^s even signs up that say cars could be clamped if the ^80 is not paid. It just means that there^s no incentive to use the station anymore and I think people will eventually just give up.

^It^s also quite threatening for older people who think they may have to pay the fine and not know why.

^I think it was a rip-off.^

The contract to handle car parking charges at Gloucester Train Station was recently awarded to APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area), which manages car parks in 15 countries.

Gloucester station^s car park has 244 spaces and daily charges range from ^8.20 on weekdays and ^5.50 on weekends.

Around 200 extra parking spaces will soon be available for motorists visiting Gloucester city centre at the Barbican Site off Ladybellegate, which has been unused for years.

A spokesman from APCOA Parking UK^▸ (United Kingdom) said: ^Following a routine inspection of the parking equipment on Tuesday August 12 and then again on Friday morning, the ticket machine clock at Gloucester Station was found to be running approximately seven minutes slow.

^This matter had been reported to the site office by one of the engineers on Tuesday evening, and the clock was subsequently reset shortly after to display the correct time.

^During this period, no parking charge notices (PCNs) were issued, and customers were given a grace period on their tickets so that their parking experience wasn^t impeded.^

I've done a little editing to correct a glaring spelling error in this articles headline. Currently on the Gloucester Citizen website it reads: "Wrong time on Gloucester Train Station parking metres put commuters at risk of fines". 

[trainer]

Isn't Gloucester time 7 minutes behind London time?  It was the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) that put an end to that, but perhaps the news didn't make it off the platform.

[ellendune]

Doesn't seem a major issue.  If the parking is for 24 hours like at Swindon 7 minutes is not going to affect many people. And once they noticed it they seem to have allowed the extra 7 minutes.

So what is the problem?

Ah forgot - Its August and there is no real local news in Gloucester

[JayMac]

I'm more concerned about signs mentioning clamping along with charges for breaching the car park terms and conditions. If the car park is operated under Railway Byelaws then clamping is permitted in some limited circumstances. If APCoA are issuing Parking Charge Notices using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 then clamping is illegal.

Seems like they are trying to have their cake and eat it.

Also I wouldn't trust any Private Parking Company not to issue PCNs after a user has encountered a faulty machine. I've read of cases where charges have been pursued to the steps of court even when it has been acknowledged that a machine wasn't working correctly. A clock that is 7 minutes slow could easily lead to PCN being issued. It takes the flimsiest of reasons for these companies to issue PCNs. They are, after all, a large income stream from folk stupid enough to pay up without a fight.

[LiskeardRich]

I'm more concerned about signs mentioning clamping along with charges for breaching the car park terms and conditions. If the car park is operated under Railway Byelaws then clamping is permitted in some limited circumstances. If APCoA are issuing Parking Charge Notices using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 then clamping is illegal.

Seems like they are trying to have their cake and eat it.

Also I wouldn't trust any Private Parking Company not to issue PCNs after a user has encountered a faulty machine. I've read of cases where charges have been pursued to the steps of court even when it has been acknowledged that a machine wasn't working correctly. A clock that is 7 minutes slow could easily lead to PCN being issued. It takes the flimsiest of reasons for these companies to issue PCNs. They are, after all, a large income stream from folk stupid enough to pay up without a fight.

As I understand Clamping is illegal on private land regardless of PCNs being issued or not.

[JayMac]

Clamping/towing is not illegal on land in England and Wales where there is statutory control and Byelaws. Such as airports, ports, harbours and railway land, including the car parks. In these places the Byelaws must include the right to clamp and/or tow. This does not apply in Scotland, where removal of vehicles can only be lawfully carried out under the direction of the police.

Railway Byelaw 14 covers clamping and towing on railway land.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf#page=12

[thetrout]

I too share BNM's concerns on the timing of the machines resulting in tickets being issued.

PPCs are no better at customer services than Civil Recovery Firms, Debt Collection Agencies and the likes. Sad but true.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with ellendune's comment on 7 minutes for several reasons and bitter personal experience.

Trains do tend to have this awful ability to run behind scheduled times. So 7 minutes could make a huge difference. Whilst I don't know the setup at GCR^» (Gloucester - next trains). If the carpark is controlled by ANPR Cameras. It doesn't matter if it's 7 minutes or 70 minutes over. You'd get a ticket in the post automatically.

Considering that 7 minutes is the minimum time to change trains at Bath Spa, Using an expression (Nothing at all personal ellendune, and apologies if it looks otherwise, it's me being pedantic) "not affecting many people" is an attitude that makes my blood start to boil.

A while back Somerset County Council pulled the funding for rural bus services in the East Somerset Area. We lost several services completely, had one slashed by 50% frequency and so on. The argument from the council being "It won't affect many people who will have other transport choices" - Well I am one of those many who it does affect.

What I am trying to explain is the principle is the same. I believe I have told this story before on the forum regarding a PPC at a Supermarket. Where I was doing Christmas Food Shopping with a friend. We arrived by car, had lunch in the cafe, did the shopping and it took forever to go through the checkouts because the store were short staffed. Once shopping was loaded into the car, I returned to the store to use the toilets before leaving. The time I took in the toilets and returning to the car, which my friend by this time had moved to the pickup point, caused us to go over the maximum stay limit by a few minutes. She received a lovely invoice in the post from an ANPR device on the exit of the car.

Needless to say I dealt with the matter on her behalf and made it clear in no uncertain terms that no payment or offer of payment was ever going to be made. Letters exchanged back and fourth and the PPC offered to waive the charge as a "Gesture of Goodwill" if I could prove my medical condition caused the overstay. They received a copy of the results of a [was then] recent medical examination which makes very grim reading and included photographs from the investigations as well...

If a PPC is going to threaten a friend with court action, home visits from collection agencies, for something that was in no way her fault, then I will make them suffer. I finished the letter with the following line:

"Enjoy you lunch"

Whilst going down the POPLA route may have been the better option using the classic "does not represent a pre-estimated loss to the organisation" and for the time overstayed the vehicle was in a pickup point waiting to pick up a passenger so was not occupying a space. May have been the better and more mature option, But I sometimes feel that if a company is going to try borderline immoral practices to gain money, then the "customer" also has the right to play a rough ball game...


Finally, Clamping on private land is I believe unlawful. There are very, very few cases where this is not the case. But for a private car park violation then clamping is almost certainly unlawful. Put it this way, If I had a car and came back to it at 1AM to find it clamped over an overstay in the carpark, I would make no hesitation to taking an angle grinder to the clamp. Or getting a friend to tow the car and remove the clamp by taking off the wheel in a vehicle repair station. I know people who have done the former and the latter when they've been clamped illegally.

Another case a friend removed the clamp, took it over 200 miles away to another vehicle repair station and wrote to the "clampers" telling them where they could collect their clamps in person.

I should also point out that I am not in any way a legally qualified professional and anything said above is considered E&OE and should be taken as such. Think that just about absolves me

[ellendune]

At Swindon the parking tickets from the machine are all up to midnight. If that is the case at Gloucester then not many people would be around at midnight.  If it is otherwise then more people would be affected.

[LiskeardRich]

Put it this way, If I had a car and came back to it at 1AM to find it clamped over an overstay in the carpark, I would make no hesitation to taking an angle grinder to the clamp. Or getting a friend to tow the car and remove the clamp by taking off the wheel in a vehicle repair station. I know people who have done the former and the latter when they've been clamped illegally.

Another case a friend removed the clamp, took it over 200 miles away to another vehicle repair station and wrote to the "clampers" telling them where they could collect their clamps in person.

I should also point out that I am not in any way a legally qualified professional and anything said above is considered E&OE and should be taken as such. Think that just about absolves me

You can legally remove the clamp yourself as long as you don't cause damage to the clamp, and leave it where it can reasonably be collected by the clamping firm.
They are fairly easy to remove without causing damage, plenty of guides can be found on internet search engines. If you damage the clamp, you can be pursued for criminal damage, and if you don't leave it behind you can be done for theft.
If you remove it yourself the fee is not applicable, as the fee charged for clamping is normally called a removal fee. A charge for them to remove the clamp.