Commuters furious over rail fare increase

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

Those pence/mile figures for seasons (& monthlies/annuals will wirk out even less!) Grahame mentions anove are actually perfectly reasonable when used against the car. Its unlikely you'd get those figures if you drove, or at least not beat it by very much - in the average car

For the seasons yes, these are on a fairly constant rate per mile. Even the anytime fares are reasonable in those parts of the network where for historic reasons the anytime day return is the regulated fare. However once you get into the long distance fares where the anytime fare is unregulated, the anytime rates per mile stand out.

I know the HMRC mileage rate of 45p a mile is a bit low but I am sure the real cost is nowhere near as high at 83p per mile!

[stuving]

Those pence/mile figures for seasons (& monthlies/annuals will wirk out even less!) Grahame mentions anove are actually perfectly reasonable when used against the car. Its unlikely you'd get those figures if you drove, or at least not beat it by very much - in the average car

It depends on how you consider the fixed (annual) costs. The AA's figure for running costs for a smallish car is about 20p per mile. If you own a car anyway, and that does not depend on how you travel to work, then the extra cost of driving to work is that 20p per mile - but there may be parking or other charges to add too.

Comparing the full cost of the car with train fares is only correct if you are going to dispense with the car. In cost terms, you can buy a lot of hire car for the fixed costs of owning one - about ^1000 pa plus depreciation, which the AA has as ^2000-^2500 but will be a lot less for older cars. And you get a choice of vehicles. But it is a lot less convenient, so hardly anyone does it.

[grahame]

The big question on comparative costs is "how many people are travelling in the car?" ... Two together, Friends and Familiy and GroupSave are the railway's products aimed at the multi traveller market, but as far as I'm aware they're not available at all on peak fares or on season tickets.

In my experience (and I'm not the only one who's watched), typical car occupancy is around 1.2 people at commuter time; slightly higher at school run time, and possibly much higher on holiday weekends to the South West.  If you, and I, and others were reliably able to walk out of our homes, hail any car with a spare seat and get a lift - changing if the driver wasn't going exactly where we wanted - we would have hugely different travel metrics!

[gpn01]

No one wins. It is not something to advertise or be happy about.

The whole idea of creating "extra" seats by reducing First class accommodation was well intentioned but badly planned and not thought through properly by those concerned...it's really a smokescreen for the inability to increase capacity by more robust means.

How can no one win when thousands more people will get a seat each day in Standard Class?  Perhaps some of those passengers interviewed by the Reading Chronicle will now be able to get a seat as a result?  It won't solve the capacity problem, but it will help to alleviate it until the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) programme and electric suburban/Crossrail trains arrive within the next two to five years.  After then, hopefully the capacity problems will be largely solved, but until then this is the sensible (and only) way of providing an increase and talk of smokescreens really is ridiculous when a wholesale upgrade of the line is ongoing and new trains are literally just around the corner.

I can appreciate your own personal frustration, NickB, as one of the tiny minority of passengers who travel in daily on a first class ticket on one of the few trains where the reduction will cause problems, but please let's not pretend that it's anything other than a handful of trains a day of the many hundreds that operate where there are any issues.  I've still yet to see any FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HST^▸ (High Speed Train) with no seats in first class seats available when I've been watching arrivals and departures from Paddington over the last few months - not saying they don't exist, but it's pretty darn rare!

Try the 06.40, and definitely the 07.08 from Maidenhead to Paddington. More and !more standing in 1st class.

Why couldn't FGW switch carriages only when existing ones are underutilised?  Instead they've just taken a broad brush approach.

[a-driver]

If anyone thinks that the arrival of the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) will solve overcrowding on our routes I think they're going to be very dissapointed. 
I think the project has been ill-conceived with more focus given by government officials on whether it works financial rather than looking at physical capacity required & passenger comfort as well.  It has already been said that the IEP is based on a poor spec by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) which Hitachi are trying to make good.  I also suspect the leasing charges paid will be astronomical which will result in cuts here and there to save ^
 

As for a-drivers comment that "Commuters will always complain even if the service was free" I'm sure it's tongue in cheek but it does give insight into how customers are viewed by a large proportion of those employed by the railway industry, if this and other chatrooms are anything to go by.

In fact, British people are notoriously resolute and reluctant to complain, which is often why service providers get away with murder in this Country.

 

[IndustryInsider]

Try the 06.40, and definitely the 07.08 from Maidenhead to Paddington. More and !more standing in 1st class.

I'm sure those two trains often do indeed form part of the tiny handful a day.  I also expect some passengers will not renew their First Class inbound only season tickets if they regularly travel on those trains and will opt to save money and travel standard class (where they will be more likely to get a seat as there will be extra ones), so it will become less of an issue over time.  Indeed I wonder, how many inbound only First Class season tickets are sold purely because there has been too much First Class seating and not enough Standard Class so commuters are inclined to pay the extra so they can secure a seat?

[ChrisB]

Now that is a *very* valid question!

[Oxonhutch]

With the First Class crush on certain trains in the morning rush, I foresee the removal of these tickets which sell at a relatively small premium over the Standard Class seasons.  Either that or a limitation as to which services these tickets are valid on.

These products appear to be sold merely to mop up unused First Class demand. And I well know that now there are considerably less FC^‡(resolve) seats - as well as my well loved quiet coach.  The latter hurts more than the loadings.

[TaplowGreen]

Try the 06.40, and definitely the 07.08 from Maidenhead to Paddington. More and !more standing in 1st class.

I'm sure those two trains often do indeed form part of the tiny handful a day.  I also expect some passengers will not renew their First Class inbound only season tickets if they regularly travel on those trains and will opt to save money and travel standard class (where they will be more likely to get a seat as there will be extra ones), so it will become less of an issue over time.  Indeed I wonder, how many inbound only First Class season tickets are sold purely because there has been too much First Class seating and not enough Standard Class so commuters are inclined to pay the extra so they can secure a seat?

.......so First class ticket holders opt for standard class instead as the premium price is no longer worth paying......and take up more of the "additional" standard class accommodation.........brilliantly thought out.....it's never been a case of "too much" First class seating, there's not enough capacity full stop!!!

[IndustryInsider]

Yes, they do take up more of the additional standard class seating, but as there's much more extra standard class seating being added than first class seating being removed that's where your extra capacity comes from.

As for too much first class seating, there clearly was on the majority of trains throughout the day with the old layout - whole carriages running around completely empty on some services.  Even on vast majority of the peak services there was ample spare accommodation in first class whilst standard class passengers were unable to get a seat.

TaplowGreen, please tell me what else could sensibly have been done to add extra seats before the line upgrade completes and the new trains arrive?

[gpn01]

Yes, they do take up more of the additional standard class seating, but as there's much more extra standard class seating being added than first class seating being removed that's where your extra capacity comes from.

As for too much first class seating, there clearly was on the majority of trains throughout the day with the old layout - whole carriages running around completely empty on some services.  Even on vast majority of the peak services there was ample spare accommodation in first class whilst standard class passengers were unable to get a seat.

TaplowGreen, please tell me what else could sensibly have been done to add extra seats before the line upgrade completes and the new trains arrive?

How about replace the carriages only where they were underutilised?
Another idea....if you have fixed capacity and the service is full ....stop continuing to sell tickets?

[ellendune]

How about replace the carriages only where they were underutilised?

Not sure how that would work with best utilisation of stock.  Would mean having special stock just for the peak hour Oxford services thats top at Maidenhead and Twyford etc.?  If so it might mean less efficient use of trains and so less services.

Another idea....if you have fixed capacity and the service is full ....stop continuing to sell tickets?

Not sure how well that would go down politically.  It might also be against the franchise rules.

[grahame]

Another idea....if you have fixed capacity and the service is full ....stop continuing to sell tickets?

"Sorry I'm late to work ... they ran out of tickets for the train" ...

When you buy a season ticket, is it going to be for the same train each day?

[gpn01]

Another idea....if you have fixed capacity and the service is full ....stop continuing to sell tickets?

"Sorry I'm late to work ... they ran out of tickets for the train" ...

When you buy a season ticket, is it going to be for the same train each day?

For many commuters with season tickets I would say the answer is yes - Same train every day. Maybe a guaranteed seat service could be provided?

Problem I find with these sort of issues is that those in the industry always adopt the supply attitude and reflect that it would take too much effort to change how things are done. I really wish they'd start thinking from the customer perspective and instead think about how to improve the service to the customer. I accept that it's made complicated by having multiple operators and organisations, government imposed regulations, etc. It really is time someone had the tenacity to rip the whole of UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail operation up and do a proper restructure of it to turn it into a vibrant, competitive, transport capability that is profitable and provides good customer service.

[NickB]

Try the 06.40, and definitely the 07.08 from Maidenhead to Paddington. More and !more standing in 1st class.

I'm sure those two trains often do indeed form part of the tiny handful a day.  I also expect some passengers will not renew their First Class inbound only season tickets if they regularly travel on those trains and will opt to save money and travel standard class (where they will be more likely to get a seat as there will be extra ones), so it will become less of an issue over time.  Indeed I wonder, how many inbound only First Class season tickets are sold purely because there has been too much First Class seating and not enough Standard Class so commuters are inclined to pay the extra so they can secure a seat?

There will be a 1 year lag on any decision to remove First-Eastbound tickets as any sensible commuter purchases on 31st December.  Therefore throughout 2015 they will be travelling on 2014 tickets.  Even if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) removed First-Eastbound tickets this yearend there will still be a year's lag until those tickets expire.
Even with the carriage conversion those trains will still be standing room only as there is an overall capacity shortfall on those services - Standard and First.  Therefore I'd rather stand in First AND claim >100% of my money back (as comp exceeds the basis in ticket upgrade) rather than stand in Standard and get nothing.