SDO............why the discrepancies

[whole diary]

[Mookiemoo]

Okay,

Have taken various routes in last few weeks

WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)


Cheltenham-PAD

On the WOS -PAD route ADO is operating (if at all) as in the good old days


On the Cheltenham Pad rooute - SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) operates in the new wank way

Why can they do one on one line and another on the other

And dont say - trains cant stop at XYZ if SDO doesnt exit - that is a HUMAN decision and a HUMAN decision can be changed.

anybody who gets off the train if there is no platform is an idiot and deserves it - they may learn not to do it again - especially if the TM^‡(resolve) announces which carriages are are on the platform

[Conner]

But as soon as SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is active the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s lose Grandfather Rights which allows them to stop at stations to short for the train so when they stop without SDO from now on they're breaking Health and Safety regulations.
And as soon as it is active they can't take it away.

[willc]

"Yes, we got it wrong."

This was Mike Carroll's description of the policy of stopping first class coaches on short platforms, when he spoke in Charlbury on Friday evening. And he also said the contraption in the power cars that bikes have to be put in and pulled up in was "over-engineered" and was costing delay time as well, so would be looked at urgently.

So what are they going to do? Go back to the old situation (or a new new situation at stations not served by 125s before December), of stopping with standard class on the platform. He said this will be happening within four weeks, once all train crews have been given a briefing. I'm assuming he didn't just mean the Cotswold Line.

This wasn't about grandfather rights, it was about a policy decision to stop the front end of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) on short platforms, whatever coaches those were.

While drivers in the morning peak on the Cotswold Line may have got the message, Charlbury bloggers are reporting first class on the platform on occasions off-peak.

And if a Worcester-bound train is in reverse formation it will still have to stop with first class on, in line with pre-SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) practice, as there are no off-platform train stop markers alongside the track at the stations and at Moreton-in-Marsh and Evesham the signals and the single-line token machine cabinets are at the end of the platforms, so that's where the driver must stop.

Not sure what will happen Oxford-bound at Shipton (several 125 services call here already), Ascott, Finstock and Combe (if the halts train is ever covered by a 125), as drivers will need help at these places to stop with standard on. So maybe an urgent stop marker programme is on the way, just in case (a 125 has worked the evening return halts train at least twice already).

As I've said before, if the SDO fails (has anyone heard of this happening while a train is in service yet?) the idea that 125s will run non-stop Oxford-Worcester, then non-stop to Hereford, would be the final straw hereabouts for FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s tattered reputation. And in six years of Moreton-Oxford commutes, I can recall just two occasions (both at Charlbury) where some clown tried to open a door off the platform.

[Mookiemoo]

But as soon as SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is active the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s lose Grandfather Rights which allows them to stop at stations to short for the train so when they stop without SDO from now on they're breaking Health and Safety regulations.
And as soon as it is active they can't take it away.

THAT IS A HUMAN DECISION

And any human decision can be reversed if the people choose to

That is my point

Most H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) rules are only there for the idiots of the world who probably deserve what they get

[grahame]

Most H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) rules are only there for the idiots of the world who probably deserve what they get

There do seem to be places where health and saftey rules seem absurd to you and me - the warning signs on a cup of coffee that say "may contain hot liquid" are one that comes to mind.

However, what was accepted and the norm in past ages is no longer so; I was brough up on the old slamdoor 4 EPB units on the Southern Region, with door catches strongly sprung inside and I don't recall too many people falling out of trains.  We were all used to them, treated them with respect (open a 5 m.p.h. coming into a station if the door was trailing, but let the train be nearly at a stop if it was facing and gooing to "wedge" in the wind).    But people would throw their hands up in horror at a suggestion like that today.

And that's not because people are more "idiots" now than they used to be.   It's because people simply aren't used to the older ways.   And the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are getting old. I recall reading elsewhere on this forum about a teenager who was panicking when she couldn't get out of the train at (?) Castle Cary (?) as there was no door opening button, not realising she had to open the window, stick her hand out through the very hole labelled "do not lean out of the window" ... and fumble for the handle.  She probably had an IQ higher than mine, BUT it was here first time on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and such older stock - the train was twice her age - an it was something she was not  used to.

In my youth, I was also used to getting off trains at short platforms and judging whether to jump down onto the slope of more one more door up.  Today's youth is no less bright than I was but doesn't have the same experience so commonly, so the now-much-rarer case of short station, long train has to be protected against via things liks SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) and skipping stops if the ruddy thing isn't working.

[devon_metro]

I've had to help people to open the door as they were poking the 'Door Unlocked' sign 

SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is good, without it we wouldn't be able to stop at stations such as Ivybridge, where I have only had to endure a 10 minute delay, instead of 90 mins!

[Chris from Nailsea]

Personally, I agree entirely with Mookiemoo on this one. This whole question of grandfather rights defies logic, common sense and practicality.

A solicitor acquaintance of mine summed it up neatly with the following analogy.  He said it's like telling a man he mustn't beat his wife: the man replies, 'but my neighbour beats his wife!'  'Ah!' is the response, 'but that's alright, because he's been beating his wife for many years: what we're telling you is that you mustn't start beating your wife from now on!'

Before SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening), just how many people did actually go to all the effort of pushing down the door window on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train), reaching out and opening the door and then taking a deliberate step out, without first looking to see whether there was a platform below for them to land on???

I have a more practical concern over the inordinate gap between the train and the platform edge which happens sometimes at Bristol Temple Meads, where the combination of the curved platforms and some types of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) leave a gap of some two feet, outwards and downwards, to negotiate. Not a problem for me personally, but it's not easy for the disabled, elderly or those with young children, for example.

[dog box]

you may think it defies logic ,common sense, and practicality, but to enable HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to stop at places like Worle SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) had to be introduced too conform to  the Railway group standards rule book / Western Region Sectional Appendix.
These Documents are Not common or garden Health and Safety at work act stuff, but are far more reaching than that, i suppose if you dont work in the rail industry its probably difficult to comprehend there importance,
Although cant really find an answer as to why the stopping position was changed ,and bikes had to go in the power car on a rather odd bike rack .

[Chris from Nailsea]

Although cant really find an answer as to why the stopping position was changed ,and bikes had to go in the power car on a rather odd bike rack .

Hmmm.  Interestingly, Mike Carroll couldn't produce an answer to that one, either:

"Yes, we got it wrong."

This was Mike Carroll's description of the policy of stopping first class coaches on short platforms, when he spoke in Charlbury on Friday evening. And he also said the contraption in the power cars that bikes have to be put in and pulled up in was "over-engineered" and was costing delay time as well, so would be looked at urgently.

Now, at the risk of boring some other members (for which I'm truly sorry, honest!): can you please explain this 'grandfather rights' thing to me?  To set the scene, in my simple terms as 'just a passenger', I am puzzled that some long trains are allowed to continue to stop at short platforms, because they have done so for many years, but no other trains which had not done so before December are allowed to start stopping there.  Sorry if that's a rather long sentence!

What I'm puzzled by is, simply: 'existing trains - alright to carry on doing it, but no new trains allowed to do it.'  If it's that dangerous, why not say "NO trains are allowed to do it from now on!"?

And finally ... any comment from a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) point of view on this situation?

I have a more practical concern over the inordinate gap between the train and the platform edge which happens sometimes at Bristol Temple Meads, where the combination of the curved platforms and some types of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) leave a gap of some two feet, outwards and downwards, to negotiate. Not a problem for me personally, but it's not easy for the disabled, elderly or those with young children, for example.

[Mookiemoo]

"Now, at the risk of boring some other members (for which I'm truly sorry, honest!): can you please explain this 'grandfather rights' thing to me?  To set the scene, in my simple terms as 'just a passenger', I am puzzled that some long trains are allowed to continue to stop at short platforms, because they have done so for many years, but no other trains which had not done so before December are allowed to start stopping there.  Sorry if that's a rather long sentence!"

Which is precisely my point - its either safe or it isnt

Grandfather rights are a HUMAN invention which can also be uninvented or extended is said humans choose to

And as for gaps at stations - try getting on or off at WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) or Foregate street

i am a verybshort female - my inside leg is only 24 inches

I have to clamber almost on all fours onto the train due to the fact the platform is so much lower than the train

and I am not disabled but it is embarrasing to say the least - I have to take my bag off my back - put it on the train, then climb up like a toddler

[vacman]

Although cant really find an answer as to why the stopping position was changed ,and bikes had to go in the power car on a rather odd bike rack .

Hmmm.  Interestingly, Mike Carroll couldn't produce an answer to that one, either:

"Yes, we got it wrong."

This was Mike Carroll's description of the policy of stopping first class coaches on short platforms, when he spoke in Charlbury on Friday evening. And he also said the contraption in the power cars that bikes have to be put in and pulled up in was "over-engineered" and was costing delay time as well, so would be looked at urgently.

Now, at the risk of boring some other members (for which I'm truly sorry, honest!): can you please explain this 'grandfather rights' thing to me?  To set the scene, in my simple terms as 'just a passenger', I am puzzled that some long trains are allowed to continue to stop at short platforms, because they have done so for many years, but no other trains which had not done so before December are allowed to start stopping there.  Sorry if that's a rather long sentence!

What I'm puzzled by is, simply: 'existing trains - alright to carry on doing it, but no new trains allowed to do it.'  If it's that dangerous, why not say "NO trains are allowed to do it from now on!"?

And finally ... any comment from a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) point of view on this situation?

I have a more practical concern over the inordinate gap between the train and the platform edge which happens sometimes at Bristol Temple Meads, where the combination of the curved platforms and some types of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) leave a gap of some two feet, outwards and downwards, to negotiate. Not a problem for me personally, but it's not easy for the disabled, elderly or those with young children, for example.

There are many "Granfather rights" on the railway, I will try to explain as best I can, back in the good old days any train could stop anywhere because people used common sense back then and didn't sue people, then at some point in time (the 80's I believe??) someone decided that it was unsafe to stop long trains at short platforms, however, they couldn't simply "ban" long trains from short platforms because of the chaos it would cause so it was decided that any "new" trains couldn't stop at any station unless they fitted into the platform, likewise any stations that were built after that date would need to fully accomodate any trains that stopped there. Grandfather rights only ever applied to trains with slam doors though I believe, because of the fact that with slam doors a passenger would need to open the window to open the door and would see if there was any platform below them, whereas on a sprinter or any train with power doors, you simply press a button and the door opens and you are more likely to just walk off. Does this help??

[Mookiemoo]

Although cant really find an answer as to why the stopping position was changed ,and bikes had to go in the power car on a rather odd bike rack .

Hmmm.  Interestingly, Mike Carroll couldn't produce an answer to that one, either:

"Yes, we got it wrong."

This was Mike Carroll's description of the policy of stopping first class coaches on short platforms, when he spoke in Charlbury on Friday evening. And he also said the contraption in the power cars that bikes have to be put in and pulled up in was "over-engineered" and was costing delay time as well, so would be looked at urgently.

Now, at the risk of boring some other members (for which I'm truly sorry, honest!): can you please explain this 'grandfather rights' thing to me?  To set the scene, in my simple terms as 'just a passenger', I am puzzled that some long trains are allowed to continue to stop at short platforms, because they have done so for many years, but no other trains which had not done so before December are allowed to start stopping there.  Sorry if that's a rather long sentence!

What I'm puzzled by is, simply: 'existing trains - alright to carry on doing it, but no new trains allowed to do it.'  If it's that dangerous, why not say "NO trains are allowed to do it from now on!"?

And finally ... any comment from a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) point of view on this situation?

I have a more practical concern over the inordinate gap between the train and the platform edge which happens sometimes at Bristol Temple Meads, where the combination of the curved platforms and some types of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) leave a gap of some two feet, outwards and downwards, to negotiate. Not a problem for me personally, but it's not easy for the disabled, elderly or those with young children, for example.

There are many "Granfather rights" on the railway, I will try to explain as best I can, back in the good old days any train could stop anywhere because people used common sense back then and didn't sue people, then at some point in time (the 80's I believe??) someone decided that it was unsafe to stop long trains at short platforms, however, they couldn't simply "ban" long trains from short platforms because of the chaos it would cause so it was decided that any "new" trains couldn't stop at any station unless they fitted into the platform, likewise any stations that were built after that date would need to fully accomodate any trains that stopped there. Grandfather rights only ever applied to trains with slam doors though I believe, because of the fact that with slam doors a passenger would need to open the window to open the door and would see if there was any platform below them, whereas on a sprinter or any train with power doors, you simply press a button and the door opens and you are more likely to just walk off. Does this help??

Not really as we are now 20 years on.............

I know WHAT grandfather rights are, I just think they are stupid

over the 20 years they have had plenty of time to phase out grandfather rights if they chose to - and clearly they haven't

As I have said before, if someone opens a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) door, and steps out without looking especially when the guard will have warned several times which doors are on the platform, then they should be given an award - for the person most lacking common sense you can think  of

[devon_metro]

What if a person is deaf/happened to miss the announcement (some are VERY unaudible) 

[Mookiemoo]

What if a person is deaf/happened to miss the announcement (some are VERY unaudible) 

Then you have the back up - never step or walk onto something if you havent looked first

And if you are deaf ad blind - maybe you need a minder (seriously)

[vacman]

Although cant really find an answer as to why the stopping position was changed ,and bikes had to go in the power car on a rather odd bike rack .

Hmmm.  Interestingly, Mike Carroll couldn't produce an answer to that one, either:

"Yes, we got it wrong."

This was Mike Carroll's description of the policy of stopping first class coaches on short platforms, when he spoke in Charlbury on Friday evening. And he also said the contraption in the power cars that bikes have to be put in and pulled up in was "over-engineered" and was costing delay time as well, so would be looked at urgently.

Now, at the risk of boring some other members (for which I'm truly sorry, honest!): can you please explain this 'grandfather rights' thing to me?  To set the scene, in my simple terms as 'just a passenger', I am puzzled that some long trains are allowed to continue to stop at short platforms, because they have done so for many years, but no other trains which had not done so before December are allowed to start stopping there.  Sorry if that's a rather long sentence!

What I'm puzzled by is, simply: 'existing trains - alright to carry on doing it, but no new trains allowed to do it.'  If it's that dangerous, why not say "NO trains are allowed to do it from now on!"?

And finally ... any comment from a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) point of view on this situation?

I have a more practical concern over the inordinate gap between the train and the platform edge which happens sometimes at Bristol Temple Meads, where the combination of the curved platforms and some types of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) leave a gap of some two feet, outwards and downwards, to negotiate. Not a problem for me personally, but it's not easy for the disabled, elderly or those with young children, for example.

There are many "Granfather rights" on the railway, I will try to explain as best I can, back in the good old days any train could stop anywhere because people used common sense back then and didn't sue people, then at some point in time (the 80's I believe??) someone decided that it was unsafe to stop long trains at short platforms, however, they couldn't simply "ban" long trains from short platforms because of the chaos it would cause so it was decided that any "new" trains couldn't stop at any station unless they fitted into the platform, likewise any stations that were built after that date would need to fully accomodate any trains that stopped there. Grandfather rights only ever applied to trains with slam doors though I believe, because of the fact that with slam doors a passenger would need to open the window to open the door and would see if there was any platform below them, whereas on a sprinter or any train with power doors, you simply press a button and the door opens and you are more likely to just walk off. Does this help??

Not really as we are now 20 years on.............

I know WHAT grandfather rights are, I just think they are stupid

over the 20 years they have had plenty of time to phase out grandfather rights if they chose to - and clearly they haven't

As I have said before, if someone opens a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) door, and steps out without looking especially when the guard will have warned several times which doors are on the platform, then they should be given an award - for the person most lacking common sense you can think  of

Yes I know hat you were saying, I was simply answering chris from nailsea's question!!!!