What rights do you have(refers to unable to get a bike off of an HST)

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

There may be a local instruction applicable for Cotswold/Hereford/Wales services which are routes I never signed, but not platforming the TGS is simply not SOP^▸ (Standard Operating Instructions).

Yes, there's a few of them on the Cotswold Line which (as usual) has to be a little awkward!  At Worcester Foregate Street the viaduct at the end of the platform means that trains must stop at the end of the platform regardless of formation.  The same thing happens at Moreton-In-Marsh (down direction) and Evesham (up direction) because of signals.  They're section signals which is presumably why no alternative stop boards are positioned off of the platform.  Also, not an official instruction, but I know that some guards like the front coaches on the platform at Shipton regardless of the formation as the curvature of the track means that should the driver/guard comms fail it would be virtually impossible to despatch with a flag/light.

[flyingscotsman]

To help to clarify the Twyford issue.......

A correct formation of a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) i.e. the right way round is first class always leading to London/the TGS always heading west.  If at Twyford the train is in the correct formation on the down main the driver will stop with the power car off the down main platform.  So, the TGS (coach A) is platformed.  However, if the train is in the wrong formation (in reverse as the crew call it) the first class will be at the front of the train heading west.  The driver will stop at either the 2+7 or the 2+8 boards.  Maybe on this occasion a driver forgot the formation of his train which was in the reverse formation i.e. first class at the front, he should have stopped at the 2+7 or 2+8 boards but only ran the power car off instead, the train manager could have come to a clear understanding with the driver before the doors were released and gave him six on the buzzer to draw forward to the  appropriate stop board.  This, at the rear of the train and the london end of the down main platform the TGS, coach A, would have been platformed. 


I notice there was mention of Thatcham and Bedwyn. 

Thatcham. If the train is in the correct formation leaving london, the driver at Thatcham could if he wished take the power car off the platform at Thatcham in the down direction and stop just on the level crossing.  The signal  would not go back to red and the TGS coach A will be platformed Some drivers do insist on stopping at the signal when it is clear as they do not know it will not go back to red as the track circuit for this signal is past the level crossing.  If the signal is red when the train approaches and does not clear the driver has no other option than to stop at the signal.

Bedwyn.  Down direction - no matter what formation the train is in the power car must stop before the end of the platform where the signal is because the terminating Bedwyn services (turbos) shunt into the sidings and the cross over for this movement is just beyond the signal.  Bedwyn does not have an overlap.

Finally, the cotswolds......

Hereford - The whole train can be platformed regardless of formation and there are no unusual signals.

Ledbury, Colwall, Great Malvern, Malvern Link - The train in correct formation i.e. first class leading to London, the driver will stop at the relevant 2+7/2+8 board.  If the train is in the wrong formation the power car will be ran off the platform.  The same applies in the down direction.

Forgot Street - In the up direction, no matter what formation the train must stop at the 2+7/2+8 board because if the train was in reverse the rear would be over the viaduct if it stopped with the power car just off the platform.  In the down direction, if the train is in reverse you must stop on the platform where the cafe is just before the viaduct.  If the train is in the correct formation then the driver can run the power car only onto the viaduct thus the TGS will be platformed.

Shrub Hill - Nothing unusual - whole train on platform and no unique signals except some of them are on the wrong side of the tracks.

Pershore - up direction in correct formation 2+7/2+8 boards and in reverse the power car off the platform.  Down direction the power car off the platform if correct formation and  2+7/2+8 if in reverse.

Honeybourne - because this is a new platform in the up direction there is now a HST stop board for trains in reverse formation and 2+7/2+8  for train in correct formation.  However, if the driver stops at honeybourne in reverse formation at the new HST stop board, because this board has been put in the wrong place, the TGS van doors are off the platform.  In the down direction and normal formation leaving London, the power car is off the platform and TGS is platformed.  In reverse formation, 2+7/2+8.

Evesham - Because there is no  longer token working on the Cotswolds line, there is a HST stop marker where the old token hut is located.  Correct or reverse formation  the train stops at the HST stop board.  If the train is in the correct formation and bikes have to be loaded/unloaded at Evesham, the driver on receiving six would have to draw forward until he receives one on the buzzer to stop thus the TGS van doors are now platformed.  Same rules apply in the down direction.

Moreton in the Marsh - Correct formation in the up direction, 2+7/2+8 boards.   In reverse, power car off the platform.   This is now allowed as the track is doubled.  Down direction, driver stops at the end of the platform regardless.

Kingham, Shipton, Ascot under Wychwood, Charlbury, Finstock, Combe and Hanborough - Up direction correct formation 2+7/2+8 and wrong formation, power car off the platform.  Down direction is exactly the same. 

Oxford - all train on platform no unique signal issue

I hope this clears up any confusion anyone may have had on this matter.  I know, because the other week I got a special stop order to stop at all stations to oxford from Hereford and I was in reverse (i.e. if you haven't got the hang of it yet, TGS going to London)

[BerkshireBugsy]

Wow - thanks for that very comprehensive response flyingscotsman.

On the specific occasion I started this post with the TM^‡(resolve) made the announcement about the TGS not being platformed about 5 minutes before we pulled into Twyford. So on the basis the driver makes the decision about the stooping point (is this a correct assumption?) he must have either communicated this to the TM on departure from Paddington or en route.

[Worcester_Passenger]

Wow - thanks for that very comprehensive response flyingscotsman.

Agreed - wow!

Foregate Street - In the up direction, no matter what formation the train must stop at the 2+7/2+8 board because if the train was in reverse the rear would be over the viaduct if it stopped with the power car just off the platform.  In the down direction, if the train is in reverse you must stop on the platform where the cafe is just before the viaduct.  If the train is in the correct formation then the driver can run the power car only onto the viaduct thus the TGS will be platformed.

Can I ask about the arrangements at Foregate St? In the down direction, the train will normally stop with the power car off the end of the platform. But in reverse formation, it'll stop with the power car on the end of the platform. Why is there this subtle difference?

[Oxonhutch]

Thank-you to Super Guard and FlyingScotsman for very comprehensive answers.  One question though regarding Tilehurst on the Up Relief. There is a signal right at the end of the platform and an 'S' board - as in 'All Stock Stop Here'.  There are no HST^▸ (High Speed Train)+7 or HST+8 boards on this line - Platform 4.  In normal formation with first class at the front the TGS will always be off platform.  Sectional Appendix gives a platform length of 153m (same as Cholsey with its HST+7 and 8 boards).  I have platformed on this route on the only HST stopping service per day on many occations and cannot see how a bicycle could ever be loaded or unloaded in normal service.

One day I do remember the power car just ran past the clear aspect on the Up signal and returned it to red.. I then had the sight of a train being dispatched with most of it (including me - just) in rear of a red signal. As a heritage railway dispatcher and signalman this was a little discomforting.

[Super Guard]

I notice there was mention of Thatcham and Bedwyn. 

Thatcham. If the train is in the correct formation leaving london, the driver at Thatcham could if he wished take the power car off the platform at Thatcham in the down direction and stop just on the level crossing.  The signal  would not go back to red and the TGS coach A will be platformed Some drivers do insist on stopping at the signal when it is clear as they do not know it will not go back to red as the track circuit for this signal is past the level crossing.  If the signal is red when the train approaches and does not clear the driver has no other option than to stop at the signal.

Bedwyn.  Down direction - no matter what formation the train is in the power car must stop before the end of the platform where the signal is because the terminating Bedwyn services (turbos) shunt into the sidings and the cross over for this movement is just beyond the signal.  Bedwyn does not have an overlap.

I know there are 2+7/8 stop-boards at Thatcham which are the other side of the level crossing, and i'm 99% sure there are also boards at Bedwyn after the signal, so why would they be provided if they are not to be used?

As another example, Exeter St. Thomas on the Up Main has a platform signal which also has no over-lap, yet drivers stop at the stop-boards after the signal and the signal of course will revert to danger -- TM^‡(resolve)'s have to check as the train arrives the signal is proceed before the driver passes it, as the signal will be red when dispatching (train of course in next section).

Interestingly I had a conversation with a driver comp manager from Paddington yesterday, who would expect drivers to stop at the boards at Thatcham and Bedwyn if first class is leading and signal is clear - however if a clear understanding is reached to differ from this, then that's up to the crew.

Either way, there is no signal before the stop boards involved in the Twyford scenario, so i'm still at a complete loss as to why this happened - especially as the TM knew 5 mins prior to arrival.

[Hafren]

Was it literally because the train was busy to reach the relevant SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) panel? Assuming 7 cars are platformed, it might just about be possible to stop without SDO if the only door not platformed is the guard's door in the TGS. Would this be permissible if agreed by the crew, or would they be expected to find a way to use SDO as normal?

[Nibat]

Sounds to me that because the train was busy the TM^‡(resolve) wasn't able to reach the panel at the front of the train to allow the TGS to be platformed, bear in mind he/she needs to be at the rear to dispatch at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains).  So the TM and driver probably agreed at some point to leave the TGS out as it's easier to get to the front of A or rear of B rather than the opposite end of the train. 

And I want to think that the TM knew perfectly well that none of the cycles on board was for TWY^▸ (Twyford station)?