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Question: Would you welcome new class 278 trains?  (Voting closed: December 03, 2014, 11:21:24 am)
Yes, they would be good on my line - 4 (7%)
Yes, if it meant more capacity - 16 (28.1%)
Yes, if it meant more services - 12 (21.1%)
Yes, in the right places - 15 (26.3%)
Yes, but not on my line - 4 (7%)
No - 6 (10.5%)
Total Voters: 28

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Author Topic: New trains from old?  (Read 44525 times)
broadgage
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« Reply #165 on: February 26, 2018, 05:36:32 pm »

Yes, a domestic electricity supply can supply up to about 25KW, the largest single phase supply is usually 100 amps which is from 22 to 25KW, depending on the actual supply voltage which varies a fair bit.

I am not however very keen on large static batteries that are slowly charged from the grid and then fast discharged into the train.
Another layer of cost, complexity and losses is thereby introduced.
It MIGHT be worthwhile IF the large static battery can be charged at an attractive off peak tariff. A 100 amp 3 phase supply should be available in most places and is about 70KW. On an economy 7 tariff or similar that would be about 500KWH put into the static battery each night, at about 7 pence a KWH, or about £35 a night.

The battery would however be a very costly item, and the cost might be better put towards a supply upgrade. Fast charging direct from a suitable grid supply would avoid the losses in the static battery and the charger for same.

Depending on electricity tariffs, the best option is probably a full charge each night from cheap off peak electricity, together with top up charging during the day from full price electricity.
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"When customers say that they want a seat, they dont mean they want to sit with their knees behind their ears so that 4 more can sit down. They mean that they want an extra coach so that 74 more can sit down"
"Capacity on intercity routes should be about number of vehicles, not compressing people"
Four Track, Now!
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« Reply #166 on: February 26, 2018, 09:48:21 pm »

I prefer blind cynicism to blind faith.

In the realm of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. But you'll do pretty well, too.

Presumably this means an array of [stationary] batteries at the charging locations which are "trickle" charged continuously (or perhaps charged at night when electricity is cheaper).

This could give rise to further complexity in ticketing:
"Which ticket would you like, Sir? Advance single, Anytime return, Economy Seven..."

But when I worked in a tin mine in the latter part of the reign of William IV, one of my jobs on the afternoon shift was to collect the electric locos from where they had been working underground, stick them in the cage two at a time, and send them to the surface. Later in the shift, I would receive them back with replaced battery pack, which was a box around 4' x 6' x 3' high, and try and remember where I had got them from. It didn't take long to change them, I am told, but in fairness they weren't inside or slung underneath anything remotely like a passenger train. I am sure, though, that if proper thought goes into the design of both train and workshop, it could be done very easily. That would add yet another technology to the mix, though.

Depending on electricity tariffs, the best option is probably a full charge each night from cheap off peak electricity, together with top up charging during the day from full price electricity.

A caveat. If we have battery powered trains, and if electric cars and lorries rise in number quickly (and it looks as though that might well be the case) we may find that night time is no longer off peak.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 10:25:39 pm by Four Track, Now! » Logged

Now, please!
broadgage
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« Reply #167 on: February 26, 2018, 10:32:38 pm »

The battery locomotives to which you refer probably had lead acid batteries that are not well suited to rapid charging.
Are you certain that you got them back with the SAME battery packs ? I consider it likely that the batteries were swapped for fully charged ones, with the depleted batteries being charged before the next swap.

Returning to the present, it is likely that the proposed  battery trains would not be designed for routine battery swaps.
If rapid swapping is required, then the vehicles would probably need redesigning.
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"When customers say that they want a seat, they dont mean they want to sit with their knees behind their ears so that 4 more can sit down. They mean that they want an extra coach so that 74 more can sit down"
"Capacity on intercity routes should be about number of vehicles, not compressing people"
Four Track, Now!
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« Reply #168 on: February 26, 2018, 11:08:55 pm »

The battery locomotives to which you refer probably had lead acid batteries that are not well suited to rapid charging.
Are you certain that you got them back with the SAME battery packs ? I consider it likely that the batteries were swapped for fully charged ones, with the depleted batteries being charged before the next swap.

Returning to the present, it is likely that the proposed  battery trains would not be designed for routine battery swaps.
If rapid swapping is required, then the vehicles would probably need redesigning.

They definitely were not returned with the same packs. I'm not sure they were as modern as lead acid either.  Grin But they certainly hauled plenty of weight.

The idea of swapping battery packs is possible, but I can't see that it could be viable on a passenger railway. Modern batteries charge much more quickly, are a lot lighter than lead acid, and have many other advantages. There are a few disadvantages, though, as seen in Boeing's Dreamliner incidents, involving Lithium Ion batteries. One would expect a very stringent safety testing programme for any new battery powered vehicle.
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Now, please!
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« Reply #169 on: February 27, 2018, 12:37:30 am »

Seems Angel Trains can't even tell the difference between a 153, and a 150 Sad pretty disappointing for a train leasing company. http://www.angelrailway.com/class-153.html
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ChrisB
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« Reply #170 on: February 27, 2018, 11:59:30 am »

the Battery packs on the D Trains are modular, and can be swapped in & out at ease. (but probably onlyin the depot under normal use)
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johnneyw
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« Reply #171 on: February 27, 2018, 10:19:27 pm »

I recognise that D Train has divided opinion on the forum but I must declare myself a fan. Reuse of an existing resource, if done properly has to be applauded, especially if it is at a comparatively low cost in a cash strapped industry with an historic shortage of rolling stock. Give it a try I say. Adrian Shooter and co are taking the real risk rather than the taxpayer/rail customer and they have shown some of the innovation the industry needs with the various modes they are introducing of powering them.
While the aesthetics of any rolling stock may be of secondary importance, I reckon the modern take on kind of vintage stock looks quite good!
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« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2018, 09:04:13 pm »


I would rather Shooter & Co tried their alternative drives on the various EMU classes that seem to be coming off lease early in life such as the class 317- 322 family and even the Networkers.

OTC
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paul7755
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« Reply #173 on: March 01, 2018, 12:26:01 pm »

Vivarail have finally confirmed the 3 x 230 conversions for Bedford - Bletchley this morning:
http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-supply-new-trains-marston-vale-line/

Paul
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johnneyw
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« Reply #174 on: March 01, 2018, 01:25:56 pm »


I would rather Shooter & Co tried their alternative drives on the various EMU classes that seem to be coming off lease early in life such as the class 317- 322 family and even the Networkers.

OTC

A success with D Train might be the testbed needed for such applications.
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Robert Wilensky
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« Reply #175 on: March 01, 2018, 10:36:14 pm »

Vivarail have finally confirmed the 3 x 230 conversions for Bedford - Bletchley this morning:
http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-supply-new-trains-marston-vale-line/

Paul

How are these powered? If that's a press release I'd expect them to be going OTT if it was a green, battery powered train.
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stuving
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« Reply #176 on: March 01, 2018, 11:25:22 pm »

Vivarail have finally confirmed the 3 x 230 conversions for Bedford - Bletchley this morning:
http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-supply-new-trains-marston-vale-line/

Paul

How are these powered? If that's a press release I'd expect them to be going OTT if it was a green, battery powered train.

Earlier press reports said diesel. WMT put out the same press release, with a few altered pronouns, and some extra "notes for editors" underneath including:
Quote
About the D-Train

The D-Train is a cost-effective solution to the need for new rolling stock and is designed to keep both upfront and running costs to a minimum. The D-Train uses the best of modern technology and is specifically designed to appeal to passengers and operators alike. Innovative systems and high tech equipment, such as the advanced RCM system, ensure the trains are able to be customised to suit different route requirements.

The trains are designed to accept power modules which can be diesel, battery or, in the future, hydrogen fuel cells. Vivarail is leading the UK market in battery technology and will introduce its first production battery vehicle in Spring 2018 – fully approved and ready for passenger service.

The D-Train meets all current standards up to and including the 2020 PRM-TSI regulations.

You are now officially none the wiser.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #177 on: March 02, 2018, 03:17:02 pm »

3 x 2car diesel units
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grahame
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« Reply #178 on: March 03, 2018, 08:03:00 am »

3 x 2car diesel units

From Rail Technology Magazine though motive power not quoted as far as I can see (and discussed with thoughts both ways in the comments on the article)

Quote
Vivarail has today announced that it has entered an agreement with West Midlands trains to build three new Class 230 D-Trains for the Marston Vale Line between Bedford and Bletchley.

West Midlands Trains is the first franchise to have made an order for the rolling stock, which are expected to get on track for operation in 2018.

The news follows a number of months where there was little word about the innovative battery-powered rolling stock, before the company announced in February that the first production train had entered its final build stage.

Vivarail’s CEO, Adrian Shooter, stated: “This is a big day for Vivarail. We have invested considerable time and money to bring our innovative D-Train to this point and we are delighted to be working with West Midlands Trains to introduce them into passenger service.
 
“As a West Midlands based company it will be extremely gratifying to see our trains running on local lines and we look forward to passenger feedback. Our trains will be built to the high standards West Midlands Trains has committed to and will provide the flagship service for the region.

[etc]

West Midlands Trains’ customer service director, Andrew Conroy, explained that the Class 230 would be “ideal” for the Bedford to Bletchley route.

“We are investing in almost £700m of new trains for our passengers,” he stated. “The class 230s will be the first of over 400 extra carriages we are adding to our network.

“I am sure our passengers will welcome the new look and feel of the carriages and the extra space.

“When the new trains come on stream in December we will also be adding extra early morning and late night services on the Marston Vale line Monday to Saturday.”

Congratulations on the extra services ... now, can we have something later please?  18:32 is a shocking early last train on a (normal) Saturday night!
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Chris125
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« Reply #179 on: May 06, 2018, 07:34:56 pm »

Vivarail presentation by Adrian Shooter to the LT Museum Friends (from 27mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k8W7QWRWMk
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