Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum Great Western Coffee Shop - [home] and [about]
Read about the forum [here].
Register and contribute [here] - it's free.
 21/11/2018 - First Bath Bus panel
21/11/2018 - Consultation end - Angel Road
26/11/2018 - TransWilts Board and Members
26/11/2018 - Bath Clean Air consult ends
28/11/2018 - Melksham RUG
28/11/2018 - WECA Scrutiny
Random Image
Train Running @GWR Twitter Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail News GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4 Chat on off
November 19, 2018, 12:47:54 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[153] Four track for Filton Bank - ongoing discussion
[56] Bristol Temple Meads Station redevelopment
[25] Drinking water at stations
[22] Station alert ... have we missed a closure consultation proces...
[17] Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion
[15] Renumbering platforms at Bristol Temple Meads
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
  Print  
Author Topic: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp  (Read 6805 times)
Red Squirrel
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2303


The first town plan. An idea that had legs.


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2018, 11:16:56 am »

Why is it that Bristol is one of those cities that never finishes its road network.  We have the same problem down here in (not so today) Sunny Plymouth!  They are just about to start trying to cure the latest pinch point but it will only end up creating another one somewhere else instead.....

Sorry to hijack your Bristol thread but there are similarities.

I suppose it depends on which road network you mean. The road network envisaged in the 1966 City Centre Policy Report (or which, of course, I have a copy) included a full-sized motorway running through Cotham and Montpelier, and a massive free-flow interchange where Cabot Circus now stands. Oh, and filling in the docks to build more motorways. And an elevated motorway straight through Bedminster. I could go on...

For the fact that that road network was never completed, I am very grateful; Bristol would have been a truly awful place to live - though perhaps (perhaps) a little easier for those living elsewhere to pass through.

A lot of recent changes have really been about unravelling bits of traffic infrastructure that were designed to serve that network which was never built. Redcliffe Way, for example, no longer serves a function as a major road and so there's no point in having a junction (or flyover) at Temple Gate that chucks vast quantities of traffic at it. Similarly Redcliff Hill was intended to link the Inner Circuit Road to the Bedminster Bypass - but the site of that bypass is now one of the places where Bristol plans to build thousands of new homes, and the Inner Circuit Road no longer exists.

I see all these changes as wounds that are healing. Whether they cause more congestion is a moot point; there are certainly a lot of places that are harder to get to by car than they once were - but it is hardly paradoxical that those places tend to be crowded with people enjoying themselves.
Logged

Sir. Does this mean that Ann-Margret's not coming?
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1618


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2018, 11:48:30 am »

Constantly changing road layouts are also a function of growth and changing uses of areas. The Corinium Museum in Cirencester has a map of the Roman city, showing the street plan has remained essentially unchanged for almost two thousand years. Except for the one-way streets, the traffic lights, the parking and parking restrictions, and all the rest of the town that has grown up since then.
Logged

Day return to Infinity, please.
SandTEngineer
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2473


In a Linemans Hut in the far Southwest


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2018, 12:39:42 pm »

Constantly changing road layouts are also a function of growth and changing uses of areas. The Corinium Museum in Cirencester has a map of the Roman city, showing the street plan has remained essentially unchanged for almost two thousand years. Except for the one-way streets, the traffic lights, the parking and parking restrictions, and all the rest of the town that has grown up since then.

In my city they build the offices and factories and shops first, then plan the road network afterwards.  Well, I suppose we are in the UK... Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:26:02 pm by SandTEngineer » Logged

Out of this nettle, Danger, we pluck this flower, Safety.
[Henry IV, Part 1, Act 2, Scene 3]
Four Track, Now!
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3829


I know nothing. Really.


View Profile Email
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2018, 07:31:00 pm »

The next phase of this junction improvement kicks in on 21 Oct 2018

Looks like traffic coming south down Temple Way wanting to head west on Redcliffe Way can't.  Isn't that the very journey the flyover used to provide?   Not really needed now??  Not sure if that was possible in previous phases either - I normally just hoof it from Temple Meads ...

They can, travel south over south bound Bath Road bridge do a u-turn onto the north bound Bath Road bridge and thence to Redcliffe Way. A two way flyover over the alignment of the "temporary" flyover would have been the best plan but you know Bristol Politicians, can't see any further than the end of their noses.

A mere six sets of traffic lights to negotiate. Plan B, doubling back up Victoria Street then across to St Thomas Street, is a no-go. I have, at times, been known to turn left innto Temple Back East, U-turn, then cross over past where the fire station was. I can't remember if that is still possible. I would certainly advise planning your route through the area for now, very carefully.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 03:25:23 pm by Four Track, Now! » Logged

Now, please!
Red Squirrel
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2303


The first town plan. An idea that had legs.


View Profile
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2018, 08:25:45 pm »

I would certainly advise planning your route through the area for new, very carefully.

Understanding the new road layout will certainly help.

Getting through the area by car will be a doddle when all this is finished; the problems will start if you have preconceived notions of using routes which are no longer intended for through traffic. The only reason to take a car to Redcliffe when all this is finished will be if you live or work there.

For further reading, see here: http://www.redcliffeforum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Redcliffe-online-version.compressed.pdf
Logged

Sir. Does this mean that Ann-Margret's not coming?
metalrail
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 136


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2018, 11:12:35 pm »

I'll certainly give it to Bristol on not pushing through with the whole scheme in the first place, and bulldozing half of the centre to achieve it

Where I grew up in Derby, they decided to build a massive Inner Ring Road system in the late 60s, and in the process knocked down huge swathes of mega historic buildings / Georgian squares / whole housing estates etc etc etc which have all been VERY sorely missed.  There was even a smaller version of St Mary Redcliffe church - Derby's St Alkmunds which had the biggest spire in the city (town as it was then) and was still a very busy church...  all that now remains in it's place is a portion of the Inner Ring Road named St Alkmunds Way!

Whenever family and friends visit from Derby and moan about the congestion in the centre of Bristol, I point out that apart from the parts of the centre that were flattened during the war, Bristol thankfully took the sensible decision to retain most of it's historic structures, unlike Derby.  As soon as I make that comparison, they totally get it, and all say they wish Derby still had the same historical fabric as Bristol thankfully does
Logged

Oh for the day when I can catch a train from Mangotsfield to the Centre, Bath and Yate!  ;-)
Red Squirrel
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2303


The first town plan. An idea that had legs.


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2018, 09:29:27 am »


Whenever family and friends visit from Derby and moan about the congestion in the centre of Bristol, I point out that apart from the parts of the centre that were flattened during the war, Bristol thankfully took the sensible decision to retain most of it's historic structures, unlike Derby.  As soon as I make that comparison, they totally get it, and all say they wish Derby still had the same historical fabric as Bristol thankfully does


I think in truth there was just a lot more historical fabric to begin with in Bristol. The post-war planners, as I never tire of pointing out, did far, far more damage than the Luftwaffe: St James Barton (the Bear Pit) was a very good cobbled Georgian Square which survived the Blitz but not the highways engineers; mediaeval Old Market St was severed by the bloody great hole that is the Old Market Underpass; vast swathes of Totterdown, with is steep narrow Victorian streets, were swept away for the massive Outer Circuit Road interchange that was planned for Three Lamps; great chunks of Clifton, Cotham and Montpelier were blighted for decades. Perhaps worst of all, a quarter of the mediaeval core of Bristol, it's buildings largely destroyed by bombing on 24th November 1940, was simply obliterated and covered with some third-rate buildings and a badly-designed park, while Georgian and Victorian Broadmead was demolished for a post-war shopping centre which someone described as having all the charm of an out-of-town precinct, without the parking...

But look what's been happening in the last 30 years: Queen Square and College Green are now superbly restored, and while The Dibleys were subverting their MetroBus Millions to build long-dreamed-of road schemes, Bristol used their bit to turn The Centre from a traffic system into something like a public plaza. The Temple Gate scheme is another example of a project which, as well as improving traffic flow, will turn a traffic system into a public square. Hoorah!

Nearly everything that can happen to a city has happened to Bristol. I think that may be why it is such a brilliant place.

Logged

Sir. Does this mean that Ann-Margret's not coming?
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1618


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2018, 11:09:01 am »

Bristol's planners started destroying the city for roads and motorization before the war and the great era of bypasses etc. The dual carriageway through Queen Square (and realignment of King Billy) was built in the 1930s.
Logged

Day return to Infinity, please.
Noggin
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 272


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2018, 12:22:37 pm »

Bristol's planners started destroying the city for roads and motorization before the war and the great era of bypasses etc. The dual carriageway through Queen Square (and realignment of King Billy) was built in the 1930s.

And before that, the infill of part of the floating harbour for the tramways centre...

Nonetheless, as previous posters say, if nothing else, Bristol City Council seem to be extremely good at taking money intended for bus improvements and using it to pay for tidying up road junctions and the public realm. The South Bristol Link road is indeed extremely useful, they've made a nice job of the Centre and the bits they have finished of Temple Way give the impression that it will end up as a tree-lined boulevard rather than something from a JG Ballard novel. Whilst they might be taking a year longer than expected to finish Temple Way, the council will also end up with a large building plot that should earn them a few quid too 
Logged
Red Squirrel
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2303


The first town plan. An idea that had legs.


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2018, 12:47:49 pm »

Bristol's planners started destroying the city for roads and motorization before the war and the great era of bypasses etc. The dual carriageway through Queen Square (and realignment of King Billy) was built in the 1930s.

Abercrombie's Bristol and Bath Regional Planning Scheme of 1928 was probably the start of it; Abercrombie's effect on the quality of urban life was similar to Beeching's effect on rural railways.
Logged

Sir. Does this mean that Ann-Margret's not coming?
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1618


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2018, 02:47:44 pm »

First I've heard of Abercrombie, so I googled. I found a reference to "the Western Chapter of Architects' proposal (1944)" sweeping away everything between Bristol Bridge and the cathedral in a book about Bristol, and this:
Quote
In Patrick Abercrombie’s interwar regional planning work a concern to shape the geographic distribution of urban development at a regional level and a sustained concern for rural conservation intersect. His plans tried to configure environmentally sensitive areas into a green regional infrastructure, directing the desired development to take place within the confines of a “conservative” framework. This ambition reflected a keen awareness of the need to cross the distance between legitimate conservation concerns and the constructive development of future opportunities, trying to make use of the growing public consensus regarding rural conservation as a concrete force within the planning process.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0739456X04270369
Logged

Day return to Infinity, please.
SandTEngineer
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2473


In a Linemans Hut in the far Southwest


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2018, 04:17:02 pm »

First I've heard of Abercrombie, so I googled. I found a reference to "the Western Chapter of Architects' proposal (1944)" sweeping away everything between Bristol Bridge and the cathedral in a book about Bristol, and this:
Quote
In Patrick Abercrombie’s interwar regional planning work a concern to shape the geographic distribution of urban development at a regional level and a sustained concern for rural conservation intersect. His plans tried to configure environmentally sensitive areas into a green regional infrastructure, directing the desired development to take place within the confines of a “conservative” framework. This ambition reflected a keen awareness of the need to cross the distance between legitimate conservation concerns and the constructive development of future opportunities, trying to make use of the growing public consensus regarding rural conservation as a concrete force within the planning process.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0739456X04270369

Bli**y that's a bit of a mouthful. Shocked
Logged

Out of this nettle, Danger, we pluck this flower, Safety.
[Henry IV, Part 1, Act 2, Scene 3]
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 22518



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2018, 04:27:51 pm »

First I've heard of Abercrombie, so I googled. I found a reference to "the Western Chapter of Architects' proposal (1944)" sweeping away everything between Bristol Bridge and the cathedral in a book about Bristol, and this:
Quote
In Patrick Abercrombie’s interwar regional planning work a concern to shape the geographic distribution of urban development at a regional level and a sustained concern for rural conservation intersect. His plans tried to configure environmentally sensitive areas into a green regional infrastructure, directing the desired development to take place within the confines of a “conservative” framework. This ambition reflected a keen awareness of the need to cross the distance between legitimate conservation concerns and the constructive development of future opportunities, trying to make use of the growing public consensus regarding rural conservation as a concrete force within the planning process.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0739456X04270369

Bli**y that's a bit of a mouthful. Shocked

From http://www.readabilityformulas.com/freetests/six-readability-formulas.php ...

Flesch Reading Ease score: 3.8 (text scale)
Flesch Reading Ease scored your text: very difficult to read.

Gunning Fog: 24.1 (text scale)
Gunning Fog scored your text: very difficult to read.

Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level: 21
Grade level: College Graduate and above.

The Coleman-Liau Index: 17
Grade level: graduate college

The SMOG Index: 17.9
Grade level: graduate college

Automated Readability Index: 23.3
Grade level: College graduate

Linsear Write Formula : 26.3
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Member of Melksham Rail User Group, on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest and some more things besides
SandTEngineer
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2473


In a Linemans Hut in the far Southwest


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2018, 04:54:51 pm »

Thanks for that Grahame.  Not just me then...... Roll Eyes

I have saved that link.  A very useful tool for when I write anything technical on here  Grin
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:06:22 pm by SandTEngineer » Logged

Out of this nettle, Danger, we pluck this flower, Safety.
[Henry IV, Part 1, Act 2, Scene 3]
Red Squirrel
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2303


The first town plan. An idea that had legs.


View Profile
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2018, 07:59:25 pm »

...a book about Bristol...

That would be Andrew Foyle's excellent Pevsner Guide (ISBN 0-300-10442-1); no well-run home should be without it!
Logged

Sir. Does this mean that Ann-Margret's not coming?
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants