Proposal to phase out paper tickets by 2020 - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Rhydgaled]

A) the same as if you left all forms if payment at home. You have to take responsibility for your own actions/property. It is no ine else's fault.

So, if I don't posess a smartphone, I am considered to have no means of payment?

B) as long as you'll accept the extra fare hike to pay for your extra staff member. Most won't

Only need an extra member of staff if there isn't a guard/revenue-protection-person on-board anyway. And if you actually had revenue-protection staff on every train you wouldn't need to staff or maintain the ticket barriers, they could be left open or removed. I think guards, able to inform passengers of alternative onward travel in the event of delays causing missed connections etc. are far more worthwhile that ticket barriers.

[TaplowGreen]

It does still contain that bit about making travel more accessible, which I rather doubt - in the sense that many of the people most likely to find the current system confusing would find e-tickets even worse.

A very good point.  I have a circle of relations who find the fares system rather too complex for them and a look to me to buy tickets and reservations on their behalf.  How will that work once paper tickets go.  Is that more accessible for them?

Then apply pressure to get the fare system simplified?

[lordgoata]

What if your mobile phone is just a phone (not one of these 'smart' thingies), has a flat battery, or has been left at home or in the heavy bag your grandmother said she would take home by car for you...

Well I certainly will not be getting my phone out and waving it around the ticket barrier when 3 trains worth of impatient passengers and scores of messing around school kids are trying to barge through them at Maidenhead every morning....

[JayMac]

Told by a DSM at Bristol TM^‡(resolve) this morning that e-tickets are coming to the Severn Beach Line from September. He knew not whether all ticket types would be available. Does any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) currently sell walk-up e-tickets?

[ChrisB]

A) the same as if you left all forms if payment at home. You have to take responsibility for your own actions/property. It is no ine else's fault.

So, if I don't posess a smartphone, I am considered to have no means of payment?

I didn't say that. If you leave your smartphone (if you have one) and you're wallet (with cards cards/cash in) at home, you're knackered. Same as now, no change. It's your fault.

B) as long as you'll accept the extra fare hike to pay for your extra staff member. Most won't

Only need an extra member of staff if there isn't a guard/revenue-protection-person on-board anyway. And if you actually had revenue-protection staff on every train you wouldn't need to staff or maintain the ticket barriers, they could be left open or removed.[/quote]

doh! Which do you think would be cheaper? a few on each set of barriers or one revenue person on each train, first train to last train? Isn't that why barriers were invented?

I think guards, able to inform passengers of alternative onward travel in the event of delays causing missed connections etc. are far more worthwhile that ticket barriers.

So do I - but the accountants don't
[/quote]

[Rhydgaled]

So, if I don't posess a smartphone, I am considered to have no means of payment?

I didn't say that. If you leave your smartphone (if you have one) and you're wallet (with cards cards/cash in) at home, you're knackered. Same as now, no change. It's your fault.

Eh? I thought the suggestion was that paper tickets would no longer exist, in which case if I don't have a phone I would be unable to buy a ticket, even if I have cash in my pocket ready to pay.

[ChrisB]

Told by a DSM at Bristol TM^‡(resolve) this morning that e-tickets are coming to the Severn Beach Line from September. He knew not whether all ticket types would be available. Does any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) currently sell walk-up e-tickets?

Don't think so. This'll be interesting....

[JayMac]

DSM seem pretty convinced. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Management team chap, not one of the supervisors on DSM duties.

Also told me that other Bristol area improvements that are the responsibility of the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) aren't going ahead whilst the franchise is in limbo. Such as TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and staffing for Clifton Down. His reasoning? Why should FGW invest if they may not be the franchisee soon?

So I learned a little to answer the Wolmar question. Franchising is for delaying investment until it suits the franchisee, not because it is needed.

[ellendune]

So I learned a little to answer the Wolmar question. Franchising is for delaying investment until it suits the franchisee, not because it is needed.

I suggest franchises must have been put in place with the sole intention of annoying BNM. Or so it would seem. Why would a company agree to pay ^30k for a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) with no hope of getting a return on it?

If you want a charity to run the railways I suggest you start one and see how long it takes them to raise the ^30k for a TVM. 

[JayMac]

So I learned a little to answer the Wolmar question. Franchising is for delaying investment until it suits the franchisee, not because it is needed.

I suggest franchises must have been put in place with the sole intention of annoying BNM. Or so it would seem. Why would a company agree to pay ^30k for a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) with no hope of getting a return on it?

If you want a charity to run the railways I suggest you start one and see how long it takes them to raise the ^30k for a TVM. 

Straw man. 

Yes, I drew my own conclusion. But there must be something not quite right in the 'system' if I have a well placed manager (near the top of Bristol TM^‡(resolve) hierarchy) telling me that the issues I raised would have been addressed were it not for the uncertainty with the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) franchise.*

I look forward to the e-ticket trial I was told about this morning. But experience tells me that what Bristol TM managers tell me is far removed from what actually happens. Already in this thread we have a FGW Customer Panel member totally unaware of such a trial. I've asked FGW Customer Services via social media about this trial. Initial reply is best summed up as 'Huh?'



*I await the "It's not FGW's fault" response...

[ChrisB]

But experience tells me that what Bristol TM^‡(resolve) managers tell me is far removed from what actually happens.

Makes you wonder why then you don't take their info with a touch of suspicion then if they're rarely right?

[TonyK]

DSM seem pretty convinced. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Management team chap, not one of the supervisors on DSM duties.

Also told me that other Bristol area improvements that are the responsibility of the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) aren't going ahead whilst the franchise is in limbo. Such as TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and staffing for Clifton Down. His reasoning? Why should FGW invest if they may not be the franchisee soon?

Sadly, that makes perfect commercial sense. The previous TVM at Clifton Down was vandalised within days. Anything that increases the take at the fare box - remember it is still only ^3 return from SVB to BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) - will make this line less susceptible to politics.

My preferred option would be the contactless card readers as on London Underground - so easy to use. You can buy tickets for First buses by mobile phone, and they are being used. I keep forgetting to charge my phone up, so I haven't looked into it yet.

[JayMac]

A separate topic about the forthcoming trial of Smart Ticketing on the Severn Beach Line has been started here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15518.0

[Bmblbzzz]

Does anyone know what this actually means - or will mean - in practice?

Does it mean that by 2020 there will be no paper tickets, or that paper tickets will start to 'be phased out' from that date?
What will replace paper tickets? What, if anything, will a passenger receive to show they have paid for travel?
Will you still be able to buy a 'ticket' (whatever form that takes, whether printed card or phone app or whatever) at point of travel - or will you have to purchase it in advance?
Will there be any provision for people without some 'mobile device' to travel (eg kids taking the train to school)?
Will there be 'tickets' in the form of eg SMS, email etc, or will there be a smart card system like the Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card?
If a smart card, will it be a national scheme valid for all services and all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), or will different franchises have their own cards?
Is this perhaps not a scheme to 'make efficiencies' by moving to an online or machine only system, making ticket window staff redundant?
Can an announcement about a long-term scheme made so close to a general election be considered to have any validity a t all?

Does even the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) know any of these things yet?

And is there any connection with eg this: http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Fares-rail-policy-and-DfT-news/dft-invests-in-smart-ticketing-in-the-west-midlands

Separately, the minister also announced that the government will be working with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Cards Association ^ the body representing the card payments industry ^ to bring contactless payment to public transport country-wide.
The association will lead a project to coordinate actions among card payment processors, card issuers as well as UK transport operators.

...which would suggest it's about payment methods, rather than tickets per se?

Intrigued!

[ellendune]

Nederlandse Spoorwegen (Dutch Railways) have already done something that could be interpreted as this. There are also similar schemes on the metro systems in Lisbon and Porto (Portugal).

In Portugal you have  a smart card that can be loaded with one or more journeys of a particular zone (you cannot mix). In the Netherlands I think it just holds a standard ticket on a smartcard. 

All tickets are some sort of smart card, which can be loaded with either one sort of ticket or various sorts of tickets. 

At the least change this could mean you have to own a smart card that is loaded with the same ticket you might have bought today - not sure that give the passenger any benefits at all. At the most change it could make it something like a Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) pay as you go ticket - though that leads to all sorts of difficulties. 

Not sure any system of benefit tot the passenger can work without some simplification of the fares system.