Call for transfer of south London suburban lines to Overground

[whole diary]

[grahame]

I missed this one when it was published in January ... what do our members think?

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/andrew-adonis-the-future-of-south-londons-rail-network-has-to-be-orange-9958169.html

The next Mayor of London should turn South London orange ^ by incorporating London^s local and suburban main line services into the successful Overground network. This would hugely improve London transport and boost jobs, housing and regeneration.

The Underground largely serves London north of the Thames and is managed by TfL^» (Transport for London - about). Most of south London, despite 227 stations serving five million people, depends on suburban services which play second fiddle to long-distance rail firms, and which are underdeveloped and poorly managed.

Much of south London suffers from skeleton services through bleak stations barely touched for a century. It^s a key part of London^s north/south divide.

The Overground network, opened over the past decade, shows how different it could be. The orbital line, extending from Islington and Hackney to Peckham and Clapham, was the result of visionary reform begun under Ken Livingstone. It took existing underused stations and services, upgrading, extending and linking them to create an integrated metro service, under TfL control, as with the Tube.

Passenger journeys on the orange network have increased by 450 per cent since Overground^s launch, compared with 50 per cent on south-eastern suburban rail lines. Passenger satisfaction ratings have risen from 57 to 92 per cent, thanks to better, more frequent trains, new routes, brighter stations and improved reliability. Capital investment made this possible but the change was as much about TfL management overcoming complex operational issues by focusing on the ^orange vision^ of a transformed metro system.

Operating subsidies on the Overground have been reduced by the passenger surge, while long-distance and freight services sharing the orange lines have not suffered. This orange vision now needs to sweep across the rest of our suburban rail network.

As a first step, management of the south London suburban lines should transfer to the Overground when the various southern rail franchises come up for renewal over the next seven years. There should be an immediate ^orange transfer^ of the south-western suburban lines through Wimbledon ^ including the major commuter stations in Kingston, Surbiton and Chessington ^ to accelerate progress on Crossrail 2.

Article continues

by Andrew Adonis - a former Transport Secretary.

[ChrisB]

Don't see any gain personally. NR^» (Network Rail - home page) will maintain the track, presumably at the same cost, times etc

[paul7575]

Don't see any gain personally. NR^» (Network Rail - home page) will maintain the track, presumably at the same cost, times etc

The original London Overground commenced from a very low baseline.  They've subsequently maxed out the use of existing paths in amongst the freight on the NLL and WLL, and are running the ELL core at very near capacity for a conventionally signalled route using 'mainline' stock, although limited to 5 car for now.

However if they took over from SWT^▸ (South West Trains) inner suburban services AFAICT^▸ (as far as I can tell) they'd find it just as impossible as the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) to add extra trains, and impossible to lengthen trains beyond the currently planned 10 cars.

I think the effect of an LO takeover on a more representative inner suburban service heading into a major terminus will be seen to be fairly limited - such as on the West Anglia routes into Liverpool St being taken over from the GA^▸ (Greater Anglia) TOC next month. I believe there's a fairly naive belief amongst many Londoners that LO can automatically make fantastic improvements to any existing service, but I don't think the early gains on the NLL will ever be matched again.

There's also a theory that many passenger gains are simply down to the routes appearing on the tube map.  So why not stop printing the tube map and hand out the 'Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Rail services' map instead - it might have a similar effect on usage at less cost...

Paul

[onthecushions]

Perhaps it represents the aspiration for a mini NetworkSouthEast - where there is common planning, ticketing and marketing, even with different operators, rather than disjointed DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) service specifications.

OTC

[Surrey 455]

Whenever we hear a call for TfL^» (Transport for London - about) to take over National Rail lines the reason seems to be that more emphasis needs to be put on the needs of commuters in Greater London. Well as a commuter on SWT^▸ (South West Trains) living outside Greater London I would be very concerned if my service was reduced from half hourly (hourly after 7.30pm and Sundays) just so Londoners could get a train every 5 minutes or so.

So no, I am not in favour of a TfL takeover

[ellendune]

Whenever we hear a call for TfL^» (Transport for London - about) to take over National Rail lines the reason seems to be that more emphasis needs to be put on the needs of commuters in Greater London. Well as a commuter on SWT^▸ (South West Trains) living outside Greater London I would be very concerned if my service was reduced from half hourly (hourly after 7.30pm and Sundays) just so Londoners could get a train every 5 minutes or so.

So no, I am not in favour of a TfL takeover

I agree TfL should not run lines that are largely used by long distance services.   

[Bmblbzzz]

I don't know these lines at all; so I won't attempt to say anything about efficiency blah blah. But to me this looks like another small battle in the slow war of power-balance between London, Central Government, and Elsewhere.

[onthecushions]

]

I agree TfL^» (Transport for London - about) should not run lines that are largely used by long distance services.   

I think that TfL is thinking about operating the trains, not controlling the infrastructure and therefore paths, which are still in DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s gift.

Perhaps the first test may be Crossrail versus our Semi-fasts from Reading in-bound.

OTC

[ellendune]

Transport for London chief: commuter trains into capital are 'shit'

The man who oversees London^s tube and bus network has described national rail services running into the capital as ^shit, awful^ and ^like the wild west^.

Sir Peter Hendy, the commissioner of Transport for London, said commuters hated their suburban rail services, and singled out Southeastern ^ one of the busiest rail franchises, carrying more than 600,000 passengers every weekday ^ for particular criticism.

He also accused the train operators of putting ^Gestapo-like^ inspectors on trains to fine as many people as possible, including customers who had simply made mistakes with their tickets.

In an interview with Management Today, Hendy said: ^People hate the suburban rail service, they hate it. If you make a mistake on your oyster card on the tube, we^ll refund it. On South West Trains, they^ll fine you. That^s a big philosophical difference.^

He continued: ^On Southeastern, the trains are like the wild west. They are shit, awful. And then every now and then some people who look like the Gestapo get on and fine everyone they can. It doesn^t improve your day, does it?^

Southeastern has consistently scored lowest on national passenger-satisfaction surveys, and the number of commuters who would agree with the colourfully expressed sentiment has likely increased recently after widespread disruption largely caused by engineering works at London Bridge, where the station and track is being reconstructed.

Hendy implied that Mark Carne, the chief executive of Network Rail, risked failing in his job because of the disruption.

[didcotdean]

Transport for London chief: commuter trains into capital are 'shit'

In an interview with Management Today, Hendy said: ^People hate the suburban rail service, they hate it. If you make a mistake on your oyster card on the tube, we^ll refund it. On South West Trains, they^ll fine you. That^s a big philosophical difference.^

So what are all those ^80 penalty fare notices on the tube about then?

[JayMac]

And of course, SWT^▸ (South West Trains) can't fine anybody.

[onthecushions]

And of course, SWT^▸ (South West Trains) can't fine anybody.

Be patient with him. He probably read about people who live and travel South of the Thames in a library book when he was at Oxbridge.

OTC

[Electric train]

And of course, SWT^▸ (South West Trains) can't fine anybody.

when he was at Oxbridge.

OTC

Leeds ..........eeeeee lad nowt as posh as Oxbridge

[onthecushions]

Leeds ..........eeeeee lad nowt as posh as Oxbridge

So was I (BSc Chem Eng, 1971)

I just wasn't the grandson of a 6th Baron.

Still its nice to see Leeds U getting a better class of students.

Let's toast him with a glass of John Smith's (or Tetley's if you must), but at Leeds prices.

OTC

[Electric train]

Leeds ..........eeeeee lad nowt as posh as Oxbridge

So was I (BSc Chem Eng, 1971)

I just wasn't the grandson of a 6th Baron.

Still its nice to see Leeds U getting a better class of students.

Let's toast him with a glass of John Smith's (or Tetley's if you must), but at Leeds prices.

OTC

Only if its proper Johns Smiths or Tetley's and not the modern fizmister stuff.