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Question: Should the railways be renationalised?  (Voting closed: August 19, 2015, 19:52:43)
Yes - 9 (25%)
No - 13 (36.1%)
An alternative to franchising - 13 (36.1%)
Don't know/Don't care - 1 (2.8%)
Total Voters: 36

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Author Topic: Should the railways be renationalised?  (Read 29725 times)
Cat Hobbs
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« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2017, 11:48:20 »

Hi, many thanks for posting our request Graham!

We Own It is a campaign for public ownership. I set up the organisation with the very clear aim of shifting the debate on privatisation and making the case for public services for people not profit. We aim to be a voice for public service users who want to see public ownership.

If there are rail user groups that actively support privatisation we can reflect those views in the interests of creating a debate but our position and campaign is for public ownership, so you might not want to support our efforts if you disagree with our mission! It's up to you Smiley

On your questions Graham

a) I agree, public polling doesn't prove the wrongness or rightness of a policy. It just gives an idea of public sentiment, which of course is informed by the media. I would argue that the media is biased against public ownership, not for it.

b) What authority does anyone have to do anything?! Smiley We are trying to start a debate about rail privatisation. We think it has been a failure and we're interested in reflecting the frustrations of passengers on this and pushing for change.

I hope that clarifies things. We'll have a comment section on our webpage when it launches so if anyone would like to comment as an individual there that'll be very easy to do.

Thanks again for sharing!
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chrisr_75
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« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2017, 12:05:24 »

We are trying to start a debate about rail privatisation. We think it has been a failure and we're interested in reflecting the frustrations of passengers on this and pushing for change.

On what specific grounds do you regard rail privatisation as a failure? Could you provide a précis here please? Do you consider privately owned, not for profit a viable alternative (e.g. Welsh Water)

Also, would you be able to respond to ChrisB's earlier post regarding funding and/or any other affiliations?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2017, 12:08:34 »

If there are rail user groups that actively support privatisation we can reflect those views in the interests of creating a debate but our position and campaign is for public ownership, so you might not want to support our efforts if you disagree with our mission! It's up to you Smiley

This will be interesting to see the amount of support from RUGs» (Rail User Group - about). None from ours, sorry. We see the benefits.

What would be good to see would be pieces from both sides from people well in the know, so people could make their minds up being fully informed - but I guess that's unlikely on your site?

Quote
a) I agree, public polling doesn't prove the wrongness or rightness of a policy. It just gives an idea of public sentiment

Which I guess you are likely to use as support for your aims, even though you seem to agree that simply sentiment isn't a reason to push for renationalisation? It needs well-argued *facts*, no?

Quote
....which of course is informed by the media. I would argue that the media is biased against public ownership, not for it.

Hmmm - I think that depends on the industry, doesn't it? For example, I haven't seen any media interest in privatising the NHS. So biased against rail public ownership, possibly. But maybe they've researched this, and realise the benefits? Until you can show the actual *benefits* of nationalisation, and back it up with the facts behind any statement, you can't really effectively campaign? So I'm looking forward to a piece on your website, hopefully written by a well-respected person in the industry, outlining this.

Quote
b) What authority does anyone have to do anything?! Smiley We are trying to start a debate about rail privatisation. We think it has been a failure and we're interested in reflecting the frustrations of passengers on this and pushing for change.

A debate has two sides, so hopefully, you will list the benefits/downsides of both? Otherwise it's not really a debate. Look forward to reading these articles.
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grahame
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« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2017, 13:23:46 »

Hi, many thanks for posting our request Graham!

[snip]

b) What authority does anyone have to do anything?! Smiley

First - welcome to the forum, Cat.  So much I want to / could say, but I have a day job to do ... so I'm going to choose just that one bit to answer.

When I first said "this doesn't look right" to the train services proposed from Melksham, way back in 2005, I wrote to my local newspaper and suggested anyone interested come around to our place one evening to have a chat about it.  Zero authority, zero background in doing this sort of thing, and zero knowledge about trains in the 21st century.  Didn't stop me as a maverick individual writing to people, challenging the system, asking for support.  And indeed finding that others shared my view.  But "Save the train" as we christened it was grass roots and simply had the growing authority of the interest of people to work with us.

We quickly teamed up with the Melksham Railway Development Group, who had brought the station re-opened in 1985 from a standing start via 3,000 passenger journeys a year up to around 10,000 and had like minds / concerns about the proposed service.  With an elected committee, representatives of the local parishes, and small grants of a few hundred pounds a year to cover meeting costs and a few bits more from those councils, MRDG» (Melksham Railway Development Group - about) (now MRUG» (Melksham Rail User Group - site)) has a little more authority than our gang of individuals.

Moving on to current times - The TransWilts CIC (Community Interest Company ) (and CRP (Community Rail Partnership) which is a part of it) grew from Save the Train and MRDG.  It's a community interest company, with members who elect the board annually.  Further, as from last September we're a designated service CRP - and prior to that point it meant a consultation arranged by the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) which brought responses from train operators (passenger and freight), Network Rail, special interest groups, parish, unitary and wider councils, individuals, and probably others I have overlooked; we have also been vetted (and it was no automatic process) for ACoRP (Association of Community Rail Partnerships) membership.   That does give TransWilts a 'degree of authority' if you like - a background that's established, proven, and with people from all sides writing in to support what we do through a published management structure, annual accounts, policies and all the rest of it.

TravelWatch SouthWest is an organisation that brings together public transport groups across the South West of England. There's around 100 member groups and each sends a representative to twice-a-year general meetings where we're informed by others with more knowledge than ourselves, and where we can network to co-ordinate campaigns and objectives to we work for the common good where we can.  There's a board and AGM (Annual General Meeting) at which directors are elected each on a three year cycle, and considerable between-meeting work in answering consultations, co-ordinating and welcoming members and to a lesser degree informing the press and media.  Again - a degree of authority for the organisation.

Personally, some of the authority from the organisation rubs off on me from each of these organisations as Vice Chair of MRUG, and as a director of the TransWilts CIC and TravelWatch - and that does help in opening doors / speaking with people / having some weight of input.   However, it's very much a double edged sword in that it means that I have a 'cabinet' responsibly and need to take care in expressing views which could be seen as having authority they really don't have, or are at odds with carefully crafted organisational policies.    But really I'm very lucky with TransWilts, which is where most of my time and visibility lies.  My role is the tactical one, getting people onto trains, passing in those little local requests for change that can help make a huge difference to people, and working with whoever is running the trains and stations.   Not for me to know whether it should be private companies or some form or government or quango or co-operative (and I don't know - hugely complex subject!), nor to shout out too many views.  It doesn't stop me from commenting that the 3,000 and 10,000 mentioned earlier is now 60,000 - which is a growth rate far in excess of the rail industry in general (or any other public transport mode?) so we have to be doing something right, and I would hate to see it jeopardised.

This forum is run by a team of moderators and admins ... any 'authority' here is vested in us by our members voting with their feet (or rather their fingers on the keyboard); we do run polls and consult with our member audience via posts where we're looking at potential issues.  But overall it's a glorious free-for-all (subject to politeness, legality and being on-topic) that lets a lot of views be seen. I can report that it's quite widely read, and I am aware of instances where something's appeared here and gone on to influence outcomes.

Cat, you gave me a good hook onto which to hang this information ... looking back at "Save the Train" it's wonderful what flow from something done without any authority, and without any pretence of authority!   I look forward to seeing your follow up posts - please don't be a "one hit wonder". Thanks

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Reginald25
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« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2017, 17:57:55 »

As an ordinary travelling member of the public, it is clear to me that passengers usually want to travel by a train, not travel by a specific Rail Operating Company. As many, if not most, lines have multiple operators with revenue sharing, the user just wants to get the next train. Tickets which limit the user to a specific ROC (Rail Operating Centre - a centralised location for railway signalling and train control operations for a specific route or region) just confuse and frustrate passengers.

One usual motivation for privatization is saving of costs (usually manpower), I'm not sure this has been achieved in the rail industry, nor has privatization made any difference to safety, which is largely centrally dictated anyway.

I can't see what has been achieved except some share holders getting some of the profits that should be fed back to improve the services, which in spite of current problems at Southern and a perception (but possibly not a fact) of regular late running, are much in demand.
I don' care whether its privately or publically run, but it should be as a single entity, not discrete groups fighting over market share.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2017, 00:29:21 »

Welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, Reginald25, and thank you for your very useful pragmatic comments.  Smiley

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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
grahame
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« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2017, 06:28:16 »

Tickets which limit the user to a specific ROC (Rail Operating Centre - a centralised location for railway signalling and train control operations for a specific route or region) just confuse and frustrate passengers.

I don't care whether its privately or publically run, but it should be as a single entity, not discrete groups fighting over market share.


Welcome to the forum - couldn't agree more with most of it (just quoted a bit)

I'm starting a long journey from GWR (Great Western Railway) land to Scotland in half an hour.  And one of the big reliefs is having  ticket that isn't "GWR Only", "Cross Country Only", "Scotrail Only";  I do have to use them from time to time and, goodness, they are frustrating on some journeys from the West to Chippenham and Swindon, for example, where I don't know which train I'll be on ahead of time.   

Fortunately, the rail industry has this far better than the bus industry, where two operator sell two different tickets for their buses only and you have to wait for the right company.  Except that 2 buses a day are subsidised by the local authority and although walk up prices are as per the operator, they will accept crossover of tickets onto those services.  This subsidised services are two evening ones; in between and in the public timetable is an extra service between those two which is (in essence) a vehicle that's returning to depot and so isn't subsidised.  Then you have the local authority sponsored rover ticket that's available on buses runs by all eighteen seventeen sixteen operators (another ceased trading on 30th December) in the county that costs more than either company's ticket but lets you cross over.  However, it does not allow short journeys on sections of the route wholly outside the county even though through journeys into and out of places served by county routes are allowed ...

Buses were deregulated in the 1980s. Train operation was privatised in 1995. Buses haven't attracted (overall) (m)any ore journeys - in fact many have shrunk.  Train passenger numbers, which were broadly stable prior to that point, have doubled.   Co-incidence?   Maybe - who can tell?
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« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2017, 11:09:42 »

I too welcome Reginald and his interesting comments.  I also congratulate him on gaining 6 stars on his very first post!  Grin
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chrisr_75
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« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2017, 11:34:04 »

I too welcome Reginald and his interesting comments.  I also congratulate him on gaining 6 stars on his very first post!  Grin

I'm not actually sure what the stars relate to, but would 6 have something to do with the first post being yesterday despite registering on Feb 27th 2011?!
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grahame
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« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2017, 11:58:27 »

I too welcome Reginald and his interesting comments.  I also congratulate him on gaining 6 stars on his very first post!  Grin

I'm not actually sure what the stars relate to, but would 6 have something to do with the first post being yesterday despite registering on Feb 27th 2011?!

Stars are gained in two ways - by number of posts, and also by volunteer / work / community involvement with rail such that they're added to the TransWilts CRP (Community Rail Partnership) members board. That 2011 registration will give you a clue (correctly) that Reginald25 isn't in any way a newcomer on rail scene, or to the team behind the counter here.
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chrisr_75
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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2017, 12:26:47 »

I too welcome Reginald and his interesting comments.  I also congratulate him on gaining 6 stars on his very first post!  Grin

I'm not actually sure what the stars relate to, but would 6 have something to do with the first post being yesterday despite registering on Feb 27th 2011?!

Stars are gained in two ways - by number of posts, and also by volunteer / work / community involvement with rail such that they're added to the TransWilts CRP (Community Rail Partnership) members board. That 2011 registration will give you a clue (correctly) that Reginald25 isn't in any way a newcomer on rail scene, or to the team behind the counter here.

Thanks for that, I'd never really thought about what the stars were for until now! And welcome to reginald25 after such a long spell in hiding  Wink  Grin
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grahame
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2017, 13:54:49 »

Further description of stars and member groups added at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15429.0 - it looks like it was a bit of a gap in our documentation.  In the early days we had a couple of issues with publishing the post count needed for each level, but that's not likely to be an issue on the very stable forum that we have now.
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Cat Hobbs
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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2017, 14:42:50 »

Graham - really great to read your story and well done! Smiley

Chris - this page summarises our arguments on rail https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/railways

The experts that we rely on a lot are Transport for Quality of Life and this page includes a short video with Lynn Sloman outlining the case for public ownership.

On public polling - yes we will use it to make our case because I think people's views are an important part of the picture. It's striking that public support for public ownership across a range of services is so high yet the government fails to reflect that in their policies https://weownit.org.uk/public-solutions/support-public-ownership

The page is now published. I'm happy to add comments from the other side of the debate and have done so for RUGs» (Rail User Group - about) already https://weownit.org.uk/blog/rail-privatisation-success-or-failure

I have offered to respond to this on Sky Views but haven't had a response yet! e.g. http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-rail-privatisation-has-been-a-success-10719242

Most of our funding comes from donations. We have had funding from a few trusts but as a not for profit company (not a charity) we have limited options for funding. We will soon have some funding from unions for the first time, for a project on outsourcing. Thanks for the feedback - I'll make this page clearer.
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2017, 16:14:19 »

As an ordinary travelling member of the public, it is clear to me that passengers usually want to travel by a train, not travel by a specific Rail Operating Company. As many, if not most, lines have multiple operators with revenue sharing, the user just wants to get the next train. Tickets which limit the user to a specific ROC (Rail Operating Centre - a centralised location for railway signalling and train control operations for a specific route or region) just confuse and frustrate passengers.

One usual motivation for privatization is saving of costs (usually manpower), I'm not sure this has been achieved in the rail industry, nor has privatization made any difference to safety, which is largely centrally dictated anyway.

I can't see what has been achieved except some share holders getting some of the profits that should be fed back to improve the services, which in spite of current problems at Southern and a perception (but possibly not a fact) of regular late running, are much in demand.
I don' care whether its privately or publically run, but it should be as a single entity, not discrete groups fighting over market share.


Railway ticketing is, in principal, quite simple. If you buy a full price ticket you can use any train in the land without restrictions. If you buy a reduced price ticket then they come with limitations on use - the cheaper the ticket the more limitations, right down to the cheapest 'This TOC (Train Operating Company) only' tickets. As TV ads always say, "Terms and Conditions apply..." and I assume that passengers are able to read.

If you just want to get 'the next train' - then buy an appropriate ticket. It's not difficult.

One of the original reasons for rail privatisation was the feeling that the private sector may make a better fist of operating train services which met passengers' requirements than BR (British Rail(ways)) which, let it not be forgotten, had presided over a declining trend in rail passengers and freight for the previous 45 years of its existence.

Safety is not centrally dictated. The 'requirements' for safe operation and the mechanisms built into the management systems are decided at the top managment levels, but safety relies on everybody in the system doing their piece - and none more than those at the sharp end. The railways in the UK (United Kingdom) are now the safest in Europe by a country mile. There were some serious accidents in the early days of privatisation such as Southall and Ladbroke Grove with significant numbers of casualties  - but nothing on the scale of Harrow, Lewisham, Hither Green, Clapham and so on. In BR's time - with centrally dictated safety - there was a fatal passenger train accident every 14 months on average. On this semi-privatised railway a decade has gone by without a passenger being killed in a train accident.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

Accidents are bad for business - the airlines have known this for a long time and the private railway knows this now as well.

As for profits going out of the industry... Try asking yourself if you have ever complained that Marks and Spencers' and Tesco's profits are leaving the food and drink and clothing industries and would be better used being re-invested in these industries?

The final statement about groups fighting over market share is disingenuous at best, and mischievous at worst. The DfT» (Department for Transport - about) awards franchises giving the franchisee a monopoly within a given geographic area for a fixed period. Only passengers living at the boundary between two TOCs will get a choice on the same route or the passenger is using Cross Country Trains which covers the country and by definition offers an alternative. The boundary cases are not generally in areas with high traffic densities such as in my neck of the woods (Reading) where there is only GWR (Great Western Railway) to Paddington, Bristol, Newbury, Exeter, Penzance or Worcester. There is a choice to Oxford, but all the tickets are interchangeable between operators and an alternative, but slower, route to London is offered by South West Trains to Waterloo. In this case there are some slightly cheaper 'Route Staines' or 'Route Slough' tickets (but not TOC-specific) but Travelcards to London cost the same by either route.

And, anyway, what is wrong with competition?
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ellendune
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« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2017, 19:22:44 »

I like the idea of competing routes as this gives a measure of resilience when problems occur. Route specific tickets are OK I suppose.  What I don't like is the complexity of the fares system and the ludicrous per miles variations in fares. 
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