Rugby World Cup - underestimated number of fans

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

A less than perfect PR^▸ (Public Relations) picture I admit, but. Some thoughts in railway's defence.

1) You assume that there are crews that can be rostered to extra late night services without cancelling some other service the following day(s) even if staff volunteered for them.

2) That missed maintenance would not affect reliability in the following days services

Just to add, the two sets used stabled at Cardiff overnight.  One will return to St Phillips Marsh arriving around 0900 and the other set runs back empty to Old Oak arriving 1100.  That's two sets that probably won't be used today.  There would have been no other room at Cardiff to stable any more extra services overnight.

3) So they cancel that possession on the Severn Tunnel and the electrification project gets further behind time and over budget! One justification for spending all that money on redoubling Swindon to Kemble was to provide a diversion for when the tunnel was closed for engineering works!

[TaplowGreen]

A less than perfect PR^▸ (Public Relations) picture I admit, but. Some thoughts in railway's defence.

1) You assume that there are crews that can be rostered to extra late night services without cancelling some other service the following day(s) even if staff volunteered for them.

2) That missed maintenance would not affect reliability in the following days services

Just to add, the two sets used stabled at Cardiff overnight.  One will return to St Phillips Marsh arriving around 0900 and the other set runs back empty to Old Oak arriving 1100.  That's two sets that probably won't be used today.  There would have been no other room at Cardiff to stable any more extra services overnight.

3) So they cancel that possession on the Severn Tunnel and the electrification project gets further behind time and over budget! One justification for spending all that money on redoubling Swindon to Kemble was to provide a diversion for when the tunnel was closed for engineering works!

In the words of BNM, "piffle".

An organisation so inflexible that it is unable to prepare for events like this despite months/years notice has serious structural problems....all the rostering/maintenance/project issues you highlight could/should have been accommodated given this timeline.

Customers were consistently lied to - all week the line was "the last train will be at 2200" so people booked (in many cases) very expensive accommodation based on this advice, only for later trains to be run.......the excuse that "it's demand management, too many people would have turned up" is more piffle.

Overall, a PR and operational disaster - FGW^▸ (First Great Western) couldn't give a damn about its customers, that much is clear - the fact that on the same day trains were available to ferry its staff to a jolly at Newbury racecourse is exquisite irony.

[ChrisB]

Total piffle, as you say!

Would it have been better if thousands had turned up for those two trains and couldn't be carried?? stranded, with no accomodation booked??

How many trains do you think (@500? A train) should have been put on? With all crews unable to work either Saturday or Sunday timetabled trains?

Sorry, it was the connercial decision to schedule the game last night - organisers knew it wasn't possible to arrange sufficient transport to get lokely travellers home, but they took the TV companies money. Blame them

[LiskeardRich]

Journey planner currently showing the 2330 last night is still running late, expected to Cardiff 1460 minutes late. Clearly a typo as it arrived about 60 late.

Fgw are getting a lot of stick for lack of services, but there few trains they did run were a lot more than were available to most other destinations from London. Everyone seems worried about the Welsh fans getting home, but what about the English fans- no trains to anywhere north of Peterborough, or banbury in their respective directions.

[broadgage]

I have previously remarked that increasingly we have a"fair weather only railway" with services disrupted by even slightly adverse weather, during which roads and airlines seem unaffected.

In addition we now seem to have a railway that cant cope with anything out of the ordinary, and finds long planned sporting events an unreasonable burden.

You cant expect a seat in the rush hour, too many choose to travel to work, and choose jobs with normal working hours. We cant buy extra rolling stock for just a couple of hours a day.

You cant expect a seat in the summer holiday season, we cant buy extra rolling stock for just a few summer weekends.

You cant expect a seat at around the Christmas holiday season (or even a train in many cases) we cant buy extra rolling stock just for Christmas.

You cant expect a seat, or even a train for major sporting events, we cant buy extra rolling stock just for sporting events.

You cant expect a seat if travelling to Glastonbury, we cant buy extra rolling stock for an event that happens just once a year.

Elsewhere on these forums I have doubted the adequacy of the new shorter trains. I have no doubt that they will be fine on some routes, outside of the rush hours, not during holiday periods, and provided that no popular sporting or cultural event is taking place in the area.
After all, we cant make any allowance for peak demands can we.

[a-driver]

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) had a perfect opportunity here with the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) order.  Buy a few extra units that remain spare, not allocated to an operator but can be spot hired to either GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) or VTEC when needed

[ChrisB]

That's pretty much what will sort of happen.

The agreement with Hitachi is that they'll deliver daily a set number of trains for the diagrams being run by the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company). They will however have some that won't be out on a daily badis, ostensibly under maintenance but I'm sure will be made available should a failure or failures occur. I suspect these can be had by the TOCs on a (planned) basis adhoc too

[ellendune]

Look we have a railway that was run down for the war years and then for 45 years thereafter by the public sector on the basis that they were managing an inevitable decline of an old fashioned out of date form of transport. Capacity was taken out while is was still being used and services reduced to match the reduced capacity.  Swindon Station was reduced to a single platform in 1966 and was to expect one train every 2 hours. That is the sort of service the infrastructure was designed for!

Trains order were kept to the minimum so we have no spare trains. The old GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) kept old trains in sidings for special occasions - they have all gone long before privatisation! The UK^▸ (United Kingdom) has a small loading gauge so every order is a special to some extent. It is therefore very difficult to just go buy a few trains off the shelf.  Attempts to do so have created some unreliable trains (180's). 

The rail industry is not in an unfettered private sector world. They do not have the freedom that the supermarkets or the other customer service organisations have. Franchises are let by DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) on a tender basis so anyone offering too much customer service will automatically be rejected on price. So on customer service we get what DfT are prepared to pay for. Which is obviously not what we would like. 

Now we have unprecedented demand and some capacity has been restored (e.g. Swindon to Kemble) but basically we are running every once out of the infrastructure we have. At the same time train diagrams are being run with no room for failure.  That is the sort of railway DfT has created.  GWR cannot order new trains unless DfT let them.  Network rail does not have the capacity or the money to add capacity any faster. 

So of course we have a fair weather railway - What else do you expect?  If you want anything else it will cost big money and you will have to wait for it to be built.

Yes the Rugby World Cup was organised a while ago, but how recently were the times of the matches at each location known? 

Network Rail is being beaten up because they are not getting on with improvements fast enough yet every few months weeks people on this board demand that they down tools to allow special trains to run. You cannot have your cake and eat.

Some of our more outspoken members need to just get real. 

I am not saying that GWR's communications have been good over the last few days, but they are doing it with at least two arms tied behind their backs by DfT. 

[ChrisB]

And you'll have to pay from any increases in rollong stock....

[John R]

It would make a lot of sense to have a common pool of rolling stock that could be utilised by TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s when needed. Just thinking of our own local TOC the following events immediately spring to mind that would benefit from such a move:-  Cheltenham Gold Cup,  Millennium Stadium matches and other events, Glastonbury, Dawlish & Weston Air Shows, Bath Christmas Market, and so on.

Then if you extrapolate that across all the other TOC's, it would appear that there would be fairly regular usage. Not enough to justify new stock, but if older stock, where the capital cost has been recovered and it's just maintenance (and profit), then maybe it could be viable?

Though it would need a leasing company to take a risk, which is probably why it won't happen, especially if the stock needs a lot of work to make it compliant with the new accessibility regulations. This would mean a much greater investment with a relatively uncertain income flow, and thus much less attractive to shareholders.

[ellendune]

Yes it would make sense, perhaps when we have the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.), but we seem to need the older stock just to run the normal services at the moment.

[JayMac]

Look we have a railway that was run down for the war years and then for 45 years thereafter by the public sector on the basis that they were managing an inevitable decline of an old fashioned out of date form of transport. Capacity was taken out while is was still being used and services reduced to match the reduced capacity.  Swindon Station was reduced to a single platform in 1966 and was to expect one train every 2 hours. That is the sort of service the infrastructure was designed for!

Trains order were kept to the minimum so we have no spare trains. The old GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) kept old trains in sidings for special occasions - they have all gone long before privatisation! The UK^▸ (United Kingdom) has a small loading gauge so every order is a special to some extent. It is therefore very difficult to just go buy a few trains off the shelf.  Attempts to do so have created some unreliable trains (180's). 

The rail industry is not in an unfettered private sector world. They do not have the freedom that the supermarkets or the other customer service organisations have. Franchises are let by DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) on a tender basis so anyone offering too much customer service will automatically be rejected on price. So on customer service we get what DfT are prepared to pay for. Which is obviously not what we would like. 

Now we have unprecedented demand and some capacity has been restored (e.g. Swindon to Kemble) but basically we are running every once out of the infrastructure we have. At the same time train diagrams are being run with no room for failure.  That is the sort of railway DfT has created.  GWR cannot order new trains unless DfT let them.  Network rail does not have the capacity or the money to add capacity any faster. 

So of course we have a fair weather railway - What else do you expect?  If you want anything else it will cost big money and you will have to wait for it to be built.

Yes the Rugby World Cup was organised a while ago, but how recently were the times of the matches at each location known? 

Network Rail is being beaten up because they are not getting on with improvements fast enough yet every few months weeks people on this board demand that they down tools to allow special trains to run. You cannot have your cake and eat.

Some of our more outspoken members need to just get real. 

I am not saying that GWR's communications have been good over the last few days, but they are doing it with at least two arms tied behind their backs by DfT. 

And yet, despite the assets being apparently sweated and the operator being hamstrung by the DfT, they managed to find two HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and two Turbos for additional services for the staff outing.

England v Wales at 8pm was known about at least 3 months ago. That's time enough to arrange rosters, adjust maintenance, timetable and advertise additional services. We're not talking about a weekday peak either where rolling stock may be at a premium, but end of service on a Saturday. No need, in this instance, for stock from a common pool, just adjustments to diagrams.

Is that getting real, or really impossible?

[ChrisB]

I'll pose the question again....just how many HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) (approx 500 pax each) do you consider would have offered everyone wanting to travel a seat?.....

[PhilWakely]

In the last few minutes, I've received the following email from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) (timed at 20:33 on 27th September 2015)......

Dear Madge [where they got that from I know not!]

The 2015 Rugby World Cup runs throughout September and October at venues across the country, including:
 
^ Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
^ Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester
^ Sandy Park, Exeter
^ Twickenham Stadium, London
^ Wembley Stadium, London
^ Olympic Stadium, London
 
If you're travelling to, from or around any of these venues on match days, there are likely to be big crowds on trains and at stations.
 
Start your journey as early as possible to avoid the busiest services and give yourself plenty of time to get your train after the game.
 
Visit the dedicated section of our website or the official 2015 Rugby World Cup travel advice webpage to get all the information you need. It includes details of where and when the matches are taking place, and tips for avoiding the crowds.

Is this a rogue that was sent out weeks ago and only just received (I've been on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/GWR mailing list since I don't know when!) or has GWR finally realised it needs to communicate!

[ellendune]

And yet, despite the assets being apparently sweated and the operator being hamstrung by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), they managed to find two HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and two Turbos for additional services for the staff outing.

England v Wales at 8pm was known about at least 3 months ago. That's time enough to arrange rosters, adjust maintenance, timetable and advertise additional services. We're not talking about a weekday peak either where rolling stock may be at a premium, but end of service on a Saturday. No need, in this instance, for stock from a common pool, just adjustments to diagrams.

Is that getting real, or really impossible?

It has already been mentioned that late trains needed to be stabled in Cardiff and there was no further room.  I assume they also missed some maintenance since they were not at their depot. You talk abut adjusting maintenance as if it were ever so simple.  When you are working a fleet to the maximum capacity rescheduling maintenance is not always possible.  So perhaps it is impossible if you want the trains to actually work for the day job next week.

Again you seem to talk about rostering as if it were simply about putting a rota together and telling people to come in. The working hours of crews are regulated and even if you can get them to work that might stop them doing the day job again.  It all depends how much spare crews you have? 

How tolerant would you be if peak hour services on Monday were cancelled because of lack of crew, because they had been working on Saturday Night? Or of trains that were cancelled due to failures brought on by delayed maintenance. 

Your world seems to be very black and white the real world is seldom ever like that and I suspect the extra services that have been run have been a difficult decision involving many compromises.

I stand by my original statement about getting real.