Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum Great Western Coffee Shop - [home] and [about]
Read about the forum [here]. Register and contribute [here] - it's free.
Random Image
Train Running @GWR Twitter Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail News GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4 Chat on off
June 17, 2018, 11:05:19 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[103] Melksham Platform extension under way
[54] Class 153's off lease
[41] Pembroke Coast Express
[34] GWR IET diagrams.
[30] Shortage of train crews on Great Western Railway since Septemb...
[25] Windermere branch Sunday 17 June
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Growth in passenger numbers continues  (Read 6783 times)
TaplowGreen
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3597


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2015, 10:04:17 pm »

simonw said "certainly not safe".  I regard safe as "no threat of death or injury". What you describe is certainly unpleasant, and I wouldn't want to be on such a service. But I wouldn't regard it as unsafe.
......how would you assess the ability to undertake an emergency evacuation in the event of (for example) fire in a grossly overcrowded train?  A potential scenario on a daily basis.
Logged
broadgage
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1838



View Profile
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2015, 10:27:03 pm »

simonw said "certainly not safe".  I regard safe as "no threat of death or injury". What you describe is certainly unpleasant, and I wouldn't want to be on such a service. But I wouldn't regard it as unsafe.

Agree.

Rail can be a most unpleasant mode of travel when grossly overcrowded, but actually dangerous ? How many have died as a result ?

The only circumstances that I can think of when crowding could be actually dangerous would be in case of substantial delay in hot weather and combined with lack of air conditioning.
That could kill, and I fear that one day it will, but AFAIK it has never happened yet.

To avoid danger in such circumstances, IMHO the railway needs to give more attention to prompt evacuation of failed or badly delayed trains especially when this occurs in hot weather and when air conditioning is not available.
One of the few merits IMO of the new IEPs is the fitting of limited diesel power to the electric trains, in order that air conditioning may be supplied when the wires come down.

I would hope that sufficient rolling stock will be available to eliminate standing on long distance services UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES. I fail to see how standing can be totally eliminated under abnormal circumstances.
For example if the trains leaving at 09-00, at 09-30, at 10-00 and at 10-30 are expected to be 90% full, what happens if the 09-00 is cancelled at the last minute ? It would take most of the day for an hourly service of trains already 90% full to clear everyone without a lot of standing.
For major sporting events, one would hope that extra or longer trains would be put on, but what happens if the railway plan for 5,000 extra passengers, but 8,000 turn up ? Standing though regrettable would be preferable to telling 3,000 that they cant go to the match.
Logged

"When customers say that they want a seat, they dont mean they want to sit with their knees behind their ears so that 4 more can sit down. They mean that they want an extra coach so that 74 more can sit down"
"Capacity on intercity routes should be about number of vehicles, not compressing people"
broadgage
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1838



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2015, 10:37:17 pm »

simonw said "certainly not safe".  I regard safe as "no threat of death or injury". What you describe is certainly unpleasant, and I wouldn't want to be on such a service. But I wouldn't regard it as unsafe.
......how would you assess the ability to undertake an emergency evacuation in the event of (for example) fire in a grossly overcrowded train?  A potential scenario on a daily basis.

It does appear to be a theoretical risk, but how many people have died in train fires in the UK in recent decades ? and was overcrowding a factor in even a single fatality ?
The risk appears insignificant in practice, and arguably getting less year on year as new trains are more fire resistant, and electric traction is (very slowly !) replacing diesel power.
Logged

"When customers say that they want a seat, they dont mean they want to sit with their knees behind their ears so that 4 more can sit down. They mean that they want an extra coach so that 74 more can sit down"
"Capacity on intercity routes should be about number of vehicles, not compressing people"
John R
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4416


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2015, 10:42:29 pm »

That's a good question.

Firstly, in terms of risk assessment, I'd look at the likelihood of such an emergency evacuation being needed. Pretty low I'm guessing, although clearly not zero.

Then I'd consider the likelihood of the speed of the evacuation being critical. You mention fire, and that's probably the only one where speed is of the essence.

Then I'd look at the impact on the overcrowding of the train in terms of time taken for people to evacuate, and the potential delay in terms of fatality/serious injury.

Once I'd done all that, I would judge the overall probability in terms of passenger kilometres and probably conclude that the risk is so minutely small that it is worth taking. As the alternative would be to impose additional costs on the industry that would result in increased fares, more people travelling by road, and more road accidents as a result.

There hasn't been a fatality or serious injury (as a result of an rail related incident) of an on train passenger for nearly 9 years now, despite many trains being seriously overcrowded on a regular basis. The track record speaks for itself.

 
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 20545



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2015, 10:57:35 pm »

It does appear to be a theoretical risk, but how many people have died in train fires in the UK in recent decades ? and was overcrowding a factor in even a single fatality ?

One death at Ladbroke Grove was attributed to the fire after the collision.  And I recall (but I can't find the reference) that people may have moved forward in the HST so been standing in coach H.    But then the ultimate is to have trains seated-only, and with people required to remain in their seats until the train has come to a complete halt. 
Logged

TransWilts Rail - Linking North to West and South 9 times a day. [see here]
onthecushions
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 576


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2015, 03:26:32 pm »


My experience of train crowding is that it is self-regulating. When a train becomes too full extra passengers choose not to try to board. This is most noticeable on LUL and no staff intervention is needed other than to allow the doors to be closed. The JNR of course employs "pushers".

As far as collision safety is concerned you are probably safer jammed together than flying the length of an empty carriage into shards of glass at the end.

Bombay/Mumbai 12-car trains rated at 3500 capacity regularly disgorge >5000 at VT, even with the 25kV OLE limiting numbers.

OTC
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants