CrossRail 2

[whole diary]

[grahame]

A consultation (close date 8th January 2016) is currently running on Crossrail 2, as previously mentioned in "Frequent Posters" [here]
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/crossrail2/october2015/

Crossrail 1 - under construction - is bringing massive changes to the Great Western main line out of Paddington, and Crossrail 2 has the potential to bring massive changes to the South West lines out of Waterloo. These chnges relate not only to the lines served, but also in the form of knpck-on effects in terms of line capacities stretching far out beyond the Crossrail / Crossrail 2 served areas, and they could both effect journey patterns and service frequencies stretching out way beyond the home counties.  The Crossrail 2 overview talks of potentially more frequent trains to Southampton and Portsmouth, and indeed that could also be more trains to Poole and Weymouth, and from Waterloo to Salisbury and onwards from there via Gillingham and via Warminster.

I don't anticipate that a very long response will be going in from any of the organisations that I'm involved with - and indeed there's unlikely to be any response at all from some of them.  However, I'm looking for inputs and opinions to help me have a more informed view as to what you feel should be said by (1) This forum, (2) TravelWatch SouthWest, (3) TransWilts and (4) Melksham Rail Development Group.  Views appreciated by 8th December, prior to a series of meetings and discussions over the following few days.

Overview

Crossrail 2 is a proposed new railway serving London and the wider South East. It would connect the National Rail networks in Surrey and Hertfordshire via new tunnels and stations between Wimbledon, Tottenham Hale and New Southgate linking in with London Underground, London Overground, Crossrail 1, National Rail, High Speed 1, High Speed 2, London Trams and international rail services.

Crossrail 2 will bring huge benefits. It will ensure that London can grow and remain globally competitive, driving growth across the national economy. It will do this by providing new homes and jobs across the region, and by improving the quality of life. It will make it easier to travel around, and encourage people to make greener journeys.

Why do we need Crossrail 2?

London and the wider South East are growing rapidly. In London alone there are now a record 8.6 million people; this will increase to 10 million by 2030. These extra people will mean five million more journeys each day on the transport network. Overcrowding on the Tube is forecast to double by 2041, and National Rail services will face similar challenges.

Transport improvements already underway across the network including Crossrail 1, which will help offset the pressure in the short term. But we need a plan to cope with longer term growth. Crossrail 2 will give our transport network the extra capacity we need to keep the wider South East working and growing, and to make life here better.

What are the benefits of Crossrail 2?

Crossrail 2 would:

* Transform travel across London and the wider South East, providing direct train services to destinations across the region

* Grow the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) economy, support 60,000 full-time jobs across the UK while Crossrail 2 is being built and, when operational, support 200,000 new jobs

* Provide new capacity for up to 270,000 more people travelling into London in peak periods, helping relieve crowding and congestion on the transport network

* Free up space on National Rail lines, allowing towns and cities like Cambridge, Southampton, Basingstoke, Woking, Guildford and Portsmouth to potentially benefit from more frequent services

* Provide step-free access at all stations on the proposed Crossrail 2 route

* Support regeneration and the development of around 200,000 new homes across the region

[grahame]

Err ... no views expressed here?   Anyone??

[TaplowGreen]

Err ... no views expressed here?   Anyone??

Brilliant idea, long overdue as is Crossrail "1", far more useful than HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).

[Adelante_CCT]

Agree with TG, it is very much needed, especially to help with the overcrowding of services into Waterloo and the also crammed Victoria line.

[IndustryInsider]

It's quite astonishing how far we've come regarding the provision of heavy rail through routes in London since the late 80s when Thameslink opened.  Before that, there was really only the North Woolwich to Richmond line running every 20 minutes with a clapped out trains, and the odd through InterCity service via Kensington Olympia that, sadly, no longer operate.  With Thameslink about to get massively enhanced, The Milton Keynes to South Croydon service, Crossrail coming soon and the London Overground network providing for many shorter cross-London journeys, the through journey opportunities are now plentiful - all taking pressure off of the tube.  Add Crossrail 2 to that list as soon as possible please!

[DidcotPunter]

Quite agree that Crossrail 2 is definitely needed. I was waiting at Lancaster Gate at 8:30 on Wednesday morning and, as I let the third eastbound Central Line train go as I couldn't physically get on it, I thought that Crossrail 1 couldn't come soon enough.  It's worthwhile checking out Crossrail's latest update video - Moving Ahead - here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHghkIipjE8

Reading II's post got me thinking. If you go back 40 years(ish) the change has been even more transformational. Then we had class 501s on the North London Line from Broad Street through run down stations like Dalston Junction that BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) was trying to close. Freight only on the West London Line and the NLL to Stratford. Ancient DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) on Stratford-North Woolwich on the Line that Time Forgot. The Snow Hill Link was closed - track ripped up. EPBs into Holborn Viaduct. Rattly Cravens class 105 DMUs and class 31s hauling mark 1 non-corridor compartment stock on the Widened Lines from Moorgate to Kings Cross and St Pancras. No "heavy rail" cross-London services at all (OK there might have been a handful of trains through Kenny O but that was it)!

I think I'm showing my age 

[ellendune]

There is a need for it yes.  But there is also a need for capacity increases in so many parts of the country. London has Crossrail 1 isn't it time other parts of the country had a share of the pot?

What about Metro West for example. However there are plenty of others. 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes, it is probably needed but the questions is how do you stop it making London even more attractive to some pepole and hense filling up the capacity again? I think London is very much big enough and it should be prevented from growing further if possible, with other cities being encouraged to grow in importance to ease the traffic burden on London.

[TaplowGreen]

Yes, it is probably needed but the questions is how do you stop it making London even more attractive to some pepole and hense filling up the capacity again? I think London is very much big enough and it should be prevented from growing further if possible, with other cities being encouraged to grow in importance to ease the traffic burden on London.

London is one of the most important cities on the planet and the main driver for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) economy, you can't and shouldn't prevent a city from growing, it's a healthy sign but the infrastructure needs to keep up.

Cities like Bristol have been extremely successful in reinventing themselves and are now booming - it's for others to follow their example and catch up, not the leader to slow down. We all benefit from a strong London.

[paul7575]

Do the 'Crossrails' come out of a national financing pot anyway?  Isn't the big thing that London business rates and council tax pay the majority?   That's usually how they get spun anyway...

Paul

[ellendune]

Do the 'Crossrails' come out of a national financing pot anyway?  Isn't the big thing that London business rates and council tax pay the majority?   That's usually how they get spun anyway...

Paul

A very small part of Crossrail was developer funded.  I think some came from supplementary business rate (can anyone provide more information). However, I think most came from a national pot. 

[stuving]

Do the 'Crossrails' come out of a national financing pot anyway?  Isn't the big thing that London business rates and council tax pay the majority?   That's usually how they get spun anyway...

Paul

A very small part of Crossrail was developer funded.  I think some came from supplementary business rate (can anyone provide more information). However, I think most came from a national pot. 

This is from Crossrail's statement on their site:

The funding framework for Crossrail was put in place in October 2007 when the Prime Minister announced that Crossrail^s cost will be met by Government, the Mayor of London and London businesses.

Following the Comprehensive Spending Review in October 2010, a funding envelope of ^14.8bn was agreed to deliver the Crossrail scheme in its entirety.

The key elements of the funding package are as follows:

The Mayor of London, through Transport for London (TfL^» (Transport for London - about)) and the Greater London Authority (GLA), will contribute ^7.1bn. This includes a direct contribution from Transport for London of ^1.9bn and contributions raised through the Crossrail Business Rate Supplement (BRS^▸ (Business Rates Supplement)), section 106 and the Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL).

Crossrail farepayers will contribute towards the debt raised during construction by TfL.

Government will contribute by means of a grant from the Department for Transport of ^4.7 billion during Crossrail's construction.

London businesses will contribute ^4.1bn through a variety of mechanisms, including the BRS.

Over 60% of Crossrail^s funding will come from  Londoners and London businesses.

Network Rail will undertake works costing no more than ^2.3bn to the existing national rail network raised through projected operating surpluses from the use of Crossrail services.

There are also considerable additional financial contributions from some key beneficiaries of Crossrail:

    The construction of Crossrail is part funded by the City of London Corporation, which has agreed to make a direct contribution of ^200m and in addition will seek contributions from businesses of ^150m, and has guaranteed ^50m of these contributions.
    Heathrow Airport Holdings Ltd has agreed to a ^70 million funding package.
    Canary Wharf Group has agreed to contribute ^150m towards the costs of the new Canary Wharf Crossrail station at Canary Wharf.  Canary Wharf Group will also design and build the new station.
    Berkeley Homes has agreed to construct a station box for a station at Woolwich.

The ^14.8 billion funding envelope for the project is a fully inclusive cost, allowing for both contingency and expected inflation.

Network Rail's ability to fund their work by borrowing, and recover it from charges, will have been altered, but perhaps not entirely eliminated, but its re-statusing.

Edit: to expand quote to full page

[Rhydgaled]

We all benefit from a strong London.

In some respects we benifit; in others quite the opposite.

[ellendune]

The GLA funding and therefore TfL^» (Transport for London - about) comes from the national pot like most funding for any local authority (Council tax produces a small proportion only and business rates go straight to central government). 

I agree with Rhydgaled though.  We benefit and we don't.

If London is successful then that is good, but if most of the infrastructure investment goes to London because it is successful then that is self perpetuating and nowhere else in the country is able to become as successful. 

[grahame]

The case for bringing the Crossrail 2 scheme to Sunbury and Shepperton is ^weak^, according to a report from Spelthorne Borough Council. (Get Surrey - http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/crossrail-2-council-casts-doubts-10668864 )

Councillors back calls for Crossrail 2 to include Harlow Town station (HarlowStar - http://www.harlowstar.co.uk/Councillors-calls-Crossrail-2-include-Harlow-Town/story-28434498-detail/story.html )