Bicycles on trains - new policy from May?

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Indeed. Day trippers with bikes in Devon and Cornwall could find their plans scuppered. If you want to book a space on the 1039 from Plymouth you need to do so before 0506!

[brompton rail]

One of the things that would make the policy work is ease of reservation.
The GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) website says up to two hours before departure of the train (from origin). Ideally this would be at any time prior to departure - BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) managed to provide reservations for cycles at any point during the journey (and that was with 1980's computing!).

Yet on Virgin Trains East Coast I can bike to the station about ten minutes before departure (I.e. At any staffed station en route), book a cycle reservation, booking office staff radio dispatchers, I go to platforms with bike, report to dispatcher who directs me to correct location on platform (north end for HST^▸ (High Speed Train), south end for electric), opens van door and I place bike in using Velcro strap to hold bike in place. At destination dispatcher / platform staff are waiting, open van, I remove bike and staff report to dispatcher and guard. Result one train not delayed and one happy customer!

I appreciate that most VTEC stations are staffed and many GWR ones aren't.

By the way, if you can text CrossCountry to reserve a seat just before it arrives (or even whilst you are on it), can you do the same with a bike reservation?

[ChrisB]

Unfortunately not (yet)

[Bmblbzzz]

Somebody mentioned upthread an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) being delayed by 15 minutes due to bike chaos. I can't imagine all those 15 minutes were spent getting bikes in and out(!), but as little delays expand with missed paths, it's possible. The problems with the HST guards van solution is there's only one external door and no internal access. Thus people putting bikes on always get there first, meaning they're likely to be occupying the van while departing passengers try to get their bikes out. Perhaps if they had two external doors each side, one entry and one exit, it would make things easier at peak times.

[stuving]

I think this should be seen as an interim solution for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway). SETs^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) have radio/digital reservations, and I guess that will extend to the bikes' dangling places (I'm sure that sounds better in German). Logically, the reservation system being introduced now should be designed to handle that, and also the transition when both train types are in use and may even share a route.

[TaplowGreen]

In my experience full size bikes cause far more misery on rush hour Turbos where there is no space for them than on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) where they can at least go in the Guard's van - this morning some berk tried to ram his bike on an already rammed train at Southall which caused considerable "rhetoric" from those already crushed together on board - I believe there are regulations about no bikes on these trains heading toward London at certain times but they never seem to be enforced or even managed.

[IndustryInsider]

Completely agree, TG.  The station staff at places like Southall should be much more proactive in enforcing the rules.

Though it has to be said that the majority of the actual delays occur on HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s due to people waiting on the wrong part of the platforms, loading it into a carriage, taking an age to stow it in the van and return to a carriage.  Although annoying on busy Turbo services it rarely, if ever, causes much in the way of delays.  That's no doubt why HST's gain more attention within the management circles that the situation on Turbo service.

[Bmblbzzz]

The 'cupboard' layout (in illustration below) seems to have been designer by someone who has never tried to store a bicycle vertically. ...

The words next to that picture say:

When designing the new Intercity Express Passenger (IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)) train, DCA consulted not only user groups but also the Cycle Rail Working Group. The result is a flexible storage space for cycles that includes drop-down shelves for luggage or folding cycle storage, which both the rail industry and stake- holders are happy with.

The outer cycle may be swivelled to the side to allow the inner one to be removed and the central divider folds out of the way to permit the two shelves to be folded down.  The doors are intended to be closed during travel but not locked.

So I guess if you wish to disagree, you need to find out who or what this Cycle Rail Working Group are. Well, they say:

The Cycle Rail Working Group is a cross industry working group that encourages implementation and best practise development of strategic policy in relation to the delivery of cycle-rail integration. The Group is Chaired by Phillip Darnton, Bicycle Association, and the secretariat role is fulfilled by ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here). Group members include:

    Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC)
    Network Rail
    Transport for London
    Department for Transport
    Passenger Transport Executive Group
    UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Cycling Alliance, represented by Sustrans
    Passenger Focus
    Rail Safety Standards Board
    English Heritage

It does look a bit light on the cyclists' side, doesn't it?

The friend I mentioned upthread who got a cab ride in a Pendolino was involved in the Cycle Rail Working Group, in a minor way. She says this about it ("darksiders" is jargon for people who ride recumbent cycles) (I've copy-pasted her message to me without alteration save for asterisking the other name, not that he'd really be identifiable anyway):

My involvement was fairly last-minute, when they realised it would be a good idea to have some funny-shaped bikes and asked around the local darksiders (I tried to recruit ********, as a prime example of a seriously disabled person who uses a cycle as a mobility aid, but unfortunately he couldn't make it).  So I don't know the wider context beyond the morning we spent in an industrial unit in Warwick with a model of the IEP's interior.

I think it says a lot that by the time any cyclists were involved the design had been finalised to the point where the space couldn't be anything other than dangly, and that they genuinely thought we'd be pleased with what they'd come up with.

So, we spent a morning experimenting with various permutations of bikes in the bike space, tested the Brompton capacity of the Luggage racks, ease of loading/unloading bikes in the vestibule and so on.  We also talked a fair bit about TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) procedures, and how those can be as important as physical design.  For example, they'd come up with a cunning hoop to lock our bikes to (that could be released by train staff if necessary).  We said we'd rather a cycle reservation automatically reserved the seat nearest the bike space so we could easily keep an eye on it and be there to play tetris when another cyclist got on.  And stressed the importance of knowing where to stand on the platform before the train arrives.  That sort of thing.

The main feedback I had on the bike space was that requiring people to lift bikes is inherently discriminatory to the disabled, women and children (nobody seems to have thought about children having bikes, or how that works when travelling as a family if the bike spaces are spread throughout the train), and that fixed hook positions mean that some combinations of bike won't tessellate.  I suggested that since there are structural elements that mean they're stuck with the dangly design, they should go away and come up with movable hooks, and add some tie-down points for strapping things like removed wheels in place.

(I also took my cyclist hat off and had a conversation about wheelchairs and toilets and door controls and things.  It's fair to say they've done a reasonable job there.)


As for how much weight was given to it, I've no idea.  Other than being CCed into a couple of emails from Dave Holladay where he provided references for things, that's all I've heard.

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) it was organised by the CTC (David Cox was there, and seemed to be in an organisational role), but I think some Sustrans people were also present (though possibly just in their capacity as cyclists who could easily get to Warwick Parkway).

[Bmblbzzz]

So it seems that, as you'd expect, the basic layout was predetermined, but the Working Group did look beyond that at booking and other procedures. The suggestion that booking a bike space should reserve the nearest seat is interesting: does anyone know if that's been implemented? Clearly the DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) angle on the dangly spaces hasn't been followed (and due to the way DDA works, almost certainly won't be).

Curious that it was in Warwick, seeing as these trains are due for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) first. I don't know if that was just one of several around the country, or if there's some kind of depot there that made it convenient for the engineers or something.

[stuving]

Curious that it was in Warwick, seeing as these trains are due for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) first. I don't know if that was just one of several around the country, or if there's some kind of depot there that made it convenient for the engineers or something.

Warwick is where DCA Design International, who did the interiors, hang out. Their web site, as you would expect, goes in for a lot of self-congratulation about their work. You know - loads of human factors inputs, consulting users, that sort of thing. They imply that the mock-ups were not the final design, and the design might genuinely be revised. We'll see.

[ChrisB]

They weren't the final design....i've spoken with people wirking there

[Richard Fairhurst]

Though it has to be said that the majority of the actual delays occur on HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s due to people waiting on the wrong part of the platforms, loading it into a carriage, taking an age to stow it in the van and return to a carriage.

There's a lot that could still be done in the way of education. Not just where to wait, but also how: in particular, remove your panniers before the train arrives and leave them on the platform, ready to pick up.

It would really help, too, if the Velcro in the HST bike storage wasn't invariably shot to pieces. Most of the time I spend loading a bike is trying to make sure that it won't fall over the moment the train leaves. If I'm travelling with a flat-barred bike I choose the leftmost space by preference (the one by the gangway), as you can just about wedge the bars into the grill such that it won't fall. But I do honestly reckon that, if GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) were to replace the Velcro with some new stuff that actually fastened, they'd save money on delay minutes.

[Bmblbzzz]

Curious that it was in Warwick, seeing as these trains are due for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) first. I don't know if that was just one of several around the country, or if there's some kind of depot there that made it convenient for the engineers or something.

Warwick is where DCA Design International, who did the interiors, hang out. Their web site, as you would expect, goes in for a lot of self-congratulation about their work. You know - loads of human factors inputs, consulting users, that sort of thing. They imply that the mock-ups were not the final design, and the design might genuinely be revised. We'll see.

What my friend saw clearly wasn't the final design but it seems to be only details that up for alteration.

[ChrisB]

Oh gosh, that's for sure. No hwavy duty changes now...you're looking at easy fit-out changes, I reckon

[JayMac]

Clearly the DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) angle on the dangly spaces hasn't been followed (and due to the way DDA works, almost certainly won't be).

What is this DDA to which you refer? The Act of Parliament repealed in 2010?