Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 04:15 07 Feb 2023
- Trial of scrapping train return tickets extended
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 01/03/23 - WWRUG AGM
30/03/23 - Railfuture Annual, Leeds
31/05/23 - WWRUG meeting
08/07/23 - WWRUG Weymouth trip

On this day
7th Feb (1909)
Timber Ferrybridge replace by steel bridge (link)

Train RunningDelayed
23:32 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
February 07, 2023, 04:27:45 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[91] Shawford station building reopens after 40 years
[76] Return rail tickets to be scrapped
[75] OTD -5th February (1971) - Taunton to Minehead foundation meet...
[53] May 2023 timetable
[46] Aberthaw Power Station and Decarbonisation
[38] Lorry driver crisis made worse by Covid - Shapps
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
  Print  
Author Topic: Penalty Fares  (Read 21373 times)
Richard Fairhurst
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1106


View Profile Email
« on: April 30, 2016, 12:35:45 pm »

At Charlbury station this morning, I was surprised to hear a pre-recorded announcement on the tannoy stating that Penalty Fares will apply to the whole GWR (Great Western Railway) network from 23rd May.

The announcement said "for more information, visit gwr.com/revenueprotection". The information at that URL (particularly the second PDF) still refers to a limited penalty fare area.

I haven't heard confirmation of this anywhere - has anyone else?
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18393



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2016, 12:44:24 pm »

Impossible. Unless GWR (Great Western Railway) are installing a TVM (Ticket Vending Machine), Permit to Travel machine, or ticket office at every station on their network in the next 3 weeks.

Could the announcement just be that the Cotswold Line is being added to GWR's Penalty Fares area?
Logged

Richard Fairhurst
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1106


View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2016, 12:52:52 pm »

I might have been hallucinating, but I'm sure it said the whole network. It followed about a minute after a similarly worded announcement, by the same auto-announcer, about the change in bike policy.

The Cotswold Line has the same issues that you point out - there's no ticket machine at Moreton, for example, let alone Finstock or Combe.
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5207


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2016, 01:10:22 pm »

Penalty fares can be variously applicable by route, service, TOC (Train Operating Company) or station.   AIUI (as I understand it) a service to one of the minor Cotswold Line stations could be a penalty fare service which would be applicable if you came from a 'full service' station such as Paddington.

In other words the possibility of a PF (Penalty Fare) can be dependent on which direction you are travelling in.

Paul
Logged
John R
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4416


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2016, 02:28:24 pm »

Yes I've heard it too and if definitely said the whole of the network. It did take me aback too.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 37862



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2016, 02:58:29 pm »

I have heard ... that it's to apply to the whole network in the interest of evening out the penalties that can be applied from place to place.  Also suggested that concentration is to be on finding those passengers who habitually don't pay. Final comment ... is that some feel it's happening in a bit of a rush.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18393



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2016, 03:02:24 pm »

General rule is that if your origin station has no ticket purchasing facilities, or a Permit to Travel machine, you cannot be issued a Penalty Fare.

If GWR (Great Western Railway) are saying that you can be given a Penalty Fare when travelling anywhere on their network then that is wrong.
Logged

JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18393



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2016, 03:05:39 pm »

that it's to apply to the whole network in the interest of evening out the penalties that can be applied from place to place. 

But that simply cannot be possible. You can't penalise someone travelling from Avonmouth who hasn't bought a ticket in the same way as you can penalise someone from travelling from Weston-super-Mare who has walked past the open ticket office and/or working TVM (Ticket Vending Machine).

Evening out the penalties? What does that even mean? A Penalty Fare isn't always a fixed price.
Logged

stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 6622


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2016, 03:33:19 pm »

If you look at the two documents linked to from that GWR (Great Western Railway) revenue protection page, you won't be hugely the wiser. But they do both refer to penalty fare zones and to penalty fare stations as not including all those in a PF (Penalty Fare) zone. Mind you, the wording keeps shifting - it's a Penalty Fare Zone in one place, and a penalty fare area in the other, and then there's a penalty fare line, or scheme, or ...

But there is this specific statement: "If you travel in a penalty fare area from a penalty fare station without buying a valid ticket, we may give you a PFN." (Our Revenue Protection and Prosecutions Policy, p 21). And there are maps, though again leaving several questions open. So it looks like that's the way they are going - but they haven't got the documents explaining it fully sorted out yet.


Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 11482


View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2016, 04:38:41 pm »

That statement is fine, I think. As BNM says, those without either ticket buying facilities or a Permit to travel machine win't be a Penalty Fare station

So what I think they mean is that RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) won't have any discretion to issue where they are able
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18393



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2016, 06:35:44 pm »

But the PA (Public Address), according to the OP (Original Poster / topic starter), says that from 23rd May, Penalty Fares will apply across the whole network.

The whole network includes the Cornish branches, the Severn Beach line, Castle Cary to Dorchester West, stations such as Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff, Castle Bar Park, Shiplake, Weston Milton, Culham, Finstock...

A simple final few words on the recorded announcement are all that is needed, "...except if you start your journey at a station with neither ticket purchasing facilities nor a Permit To Travel machine"

Passengers have to be accurate in their ticket purchase and use, on pain of criminal sanction. The least train operators can to is be clear and accurate in their pronouncements regarding passenger's obligations.
Logged

adc82140
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 183


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2016, 06:45:49 pm »

The rules are so wishy-washy in the existing PF (Penalty Fare) areas anyway- I know it's been discussed numerous times before, but as GWR (Great Western Railway) have made a business decision to make most of their TVMs (Ticket Vending Machine) card only, PFs are unenforcible if you have the ability to pay the fare in cash. There are numerous reasons why you wouldn't want to use, or have a credit or debit card. There's no legislation in this country requiring you to carry one on public transport.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 37862



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2016, 07:05:44 pm »

But the PA (Public Address), according to the OP (Original Poster / topic starter), says that from 23rd May, Penalty Fares will apply across the whole network.

I think what I heard being talked about was "Penalty Fare Rules"  - somewhat different in that penalty fare rules allow for the purchase of a ticket at the earliest opportunity where no opportunity was available at the joining station.  Though even there the new more detailed rule book is unclear, and even contradicts itself if we're reading pedantically.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18393



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2016, 07:11:31 pm »

There are new 'Penalty Fares Rules'?

I thought the rules* as set by the defunct Strategic Rail Authority (and now overseen by the DfT» (Department for Transport - about)) were the ones still in force.

Is there a link to this 'new more detailed rule book'?


*Regulation 11 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994. The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 were made under section 130 of the Railways Act 1993, as amended by the Transport Act 2000.
Logged

stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 6622


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2016, 07:17:34 pm »

But the PA (Public Address), according to the OP (Original Poster / topic starter), says that from 23rd May, Penalty Fares will apply across the whole network.

The whole network includes the Cornish branches, the Severn Beach line, Castle Cary to Dorchester West, stations such as Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff, Castle Bar Park, Shiplake, Weston Milton, Culham, Finstock...

A simple final few words on the recorded announcement are all that is needed, "...except if you start your journey at a station with neither ticket purchasing facilities nor a Permit To Travel machine"

Passengers have to be accurate in their ticket purchase and use, on pain of criminal sanction. The least train operators can to is be clear and accurate in their pronouncements regarding passenger's obligations.

But the rules for charging PFs (Penalty Fare) in PF areas always did have a lot of conditions - about notices, ways to pay at stations, staff training, etc. So the exclusion of stations not listed as PF stations isn't new. If the PF area is extended, that doesn't mean all the newly included stations will be PF stations.

I had assumed it was a requirement for PF area that only a few stations were excluded. The current rules under which PF schemes operate (as opposed to the rules for passengers) were explained by the SRA» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) here (I don't know if here's a current equivalent of this). The relevant bit is part of section 4 "How we will decide whether to approve a penalty fares scheme" (my emphaisis):

Quote
Penalty fares stations
4.4
Passengers on a penalty fares train may only be charged a penalty fare if they got on that train
at a station which has been named as a ^penalty fares station^ by the relevant penalty fares
scheme. At these stations, penalty fares warning notices must be displayed and sufficient
ticket facilities provided.
4.5
Operators must normally name each of the stations served by penalty fares trains as a penalty
fares station.
For example, if all trains within an area bounded by stations x, y and z have been
named  as  penalty  fares  trains,  all  stations  within  that  area,  including  x,  y  and  z,  should
normally be named as penalty fares stations. However, an operator may not want to include
certain stations for a number of reasons. For example, if the station:
^ has no ticket facilities as it is unstaffed, and not enough passengers use the station to justify
a ticket or ^permit to travel^ machine (PERTIS (Permit to travel));
^ has no ticket facilities as it is unstaffed, and the amount of vandalism means that it is not
practical to maintain an operational ticket or ^permit to travel^ machine; or
^ serves a port or airport and is used by a large number of foreign visitors and people who do
not often travel by train, making it undesirable to charge penalty fares to passengers from
this station.
Operators must make sure that if these stations are not made penalty fares stations, this does
not cause confusion or make the scheme difficult to explain to passengers.

At the start of section 4, it says: "A penalty fares scheme is most suited to urban or suburban train
services where most stations have ticket facilities, and where busy trains and short intervals
between stations make it impossible to check every passenger^s ticket between every stop." So do FGW (First Great Western) now consider their whole network is like that?
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page