Penalty Fares

[whole diary]

[stuving]

But as everyone is commenting Ollie, that is incorrect & untrue

I'm not. I don't see any problem with the "whole network" bit. It's not a legally-vetted complete statement of the penalty fares rules, it's a PA^▸ (Public Address) announcement. So if it's trying to say the penalty fares area is now the whole network, that's fine.

However, the information on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway).com/revenueprotection is very confused and confusing, and says something quite different. That is a problem.

[Ollie]

But as everyone is commenting Ollie, that is incorrect & untrue

I was clarifying the announcement - which hadn't been mentioned in full. I am not currently in a position to say anything about the actual scheme itself until I'm back at work and can try get something more specific.

[JayMac]

To go along with the PA^▸ (Public Address) announcements there is now a poster at stations that continues the lie that, from May 23rd, Penalty Fares "will apply across our entire network" (my emphasis).

The poster helpfully skewers that statement by showing the lines and stations where Penalty Fares won't apply. 

[LiskeardRich]

Somebody needs a lesson in English language as clearly not the entire network. The branch lines make up the entire network, but are excluded from penalty fares and don't have ticket facilities

[grahame]

As I have an excellent group of knowledgable pedants here  - can you let me know if this look right as something to scream and shout ...

If you're travelling by train in or from Wiltshire, please buy your ticket before you join the train if there's an opportunity to do so. Most stations are now equipped with ticket vending machines (TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)) available at all times, and many have staffed booking offices which are open during busier parts of the day.

Travelling without a ticket or other permit to travel when you have had an opportunity to obtain one is an offence - and attempting to avoid paying is fraud. There are already "penalty fare" regimes in place in parts of the county, but as from 23rd May these are being extended.   Where you can't get a ticket at the station before you join, you'll still be able to buy one from the conductor, but do make sure you seek him out to do so.

Ticket income is a vital to the train operating companies in keeping our trains running, and avoiding fares having to go higher.  Ticket sales data is also used to assess changing (growing, in the case of the TransWilts) demand - so a significant propoprtion of unticketed travellers can lead to fewer and shorter trains than we need - the victims of fare evasion are not only the railway industry, but also your fellow travellers, your friends, and you yourself.

[John R]

In the first sentence I would replace "please" by "you must now".  Please indicates a degree of optionality that doesn't exist under the new regime.

I would add to the second paragraph.  "Note that not having time to buy a ticket (including having to queue) is not normally regarded as an acceptable reason for not buying before you board. "

If people (say at MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains)) are used to buying on board, I do wonder whether now they have to buy at the machine it will create too long a queue.  If 15 people are buying a ticket (maybe more on a Monday for weeklies?) is it reasonable to expect people to turn up 15 min early (assuming 1 min per transaction). Will any monitoring be done I wonder?

[JayMac]

Seeking out a Conductor/Train Manager is not required, and in some cases may be pointless if the conductor is busy with safety critical duties.

Leaving your seat in Coach A to go and find the Train Manager in Coach L isn't always practical either. Luggage and personal items may have to be left unattended, and if there's another station call while you're away you may lose your seat.

I'd remove any reference to having to seek out staff on board. It is not something passengers are required to do.

[stuving]

This is what GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) say (in "Buy before you board"):
What if there are long queues at the ticket office?
This is the main reason given for not purchasing a ticket by those with no intention of paying. It makes it impossible for us to distinguish a genuine case from a dishonest case, and in these circumstances a Penalty Fare will be issued.
So, you are happy to penalize the innocent because of the shortcomings of your own systems, are you? Well, thanks a bunch for that. At least I know where we stand.
GWR monitors queuing times at it's stations in order to minimise waiting times. Authorised Collectors are supplied with information detailing problems with ticket offices, including closures outside the advertised times, as well as heavy queuing.
Why? You've just said you will issue penalty fares in all cases. But now it looks like there is some limit - what is it? I see. And how long is that bit of string in your pocket?
Self-service ticket machines are also available at most stations.
That'll be the things with the queues in front, will it?

[grahame]

In the first sentence I would replace "please" by "you must now".  Please indicates a degree of optionality that doesn't exist under the new regime.

I would add to the second paragraph.  "Note that not having time to buy a ticket (including having to queue) is not normally regarded as an acceptable reason for not buying before you board. "

If people (say at MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains)) are used to buying on board, I do wonder whether now they have to buy at the machine it will create too long a queue.  If 15 people are buying a ticket (maybe more on a Monday for weeklies?) is it reasonable to expect people to turn up 15 min early (assuming 1 min per transaction). Will any monitoring be done I wonder?

Good points; I'm amending my text to reflect your suggestions ("please" to "you must" and adding in a note to tell people to allow time to queue, but leaving out the threat your text seems to make - delicate balance).

A considerable proportion of Melksham tickets are paid in cash.  The TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) has already helped reduce the number of on-train transactions so it's easier for the train manager to get through (i.e. it's less often now that he / she can't get through) which has helped reduce free rides to Chippenham in particular. A more pro-active encouragement to use the machine will help a little more, and ticket barriers at Chippenham, which are planned, will provide a further opportunity to pay for people travelling from Melksham to Chippenham with cash.

With morning traffic slip more or less evenly between the 07:20 and 07:49 trains, the number of people poking to purchase at the same time may not be as high as you might expect, and the cash issue reduces it further - but certainly worth keeping an eye one.

Two other thoughts.

1. The TVM's screen can be virtually unreadable when the afternoon light's shining on it.   At  such times, is it offering an opportunity to buy tickets?

2. Although you have picked on (and I have answered for) Melksham, please don't think it's the biggest uncollected fares problem in West Wilts - it certain isn't!

Seeking out a Conductor/Train Manager is not required, and in some cases may be pointless if the conductor is busy with safety critical duties.

Leaving your seat in Coach A to go and find the Train Manager in Coach L isn't always practical either. Luggage and personal items may have to be left unattended, and if there's another station call while you're away you may lose your seat.

I'd remove any reference to having to seek out staff on board. It is not something passengers are required to do.

Taking the smaller stations / more local trains where there's likely to have been less chance to buy, "chance would be a fine thing" to have a coach L    ... but I do agree about leaving luggage (and you might get told off for walking through first class or charged a first class fare if you find him / here there.).   There's no requirement to seek, I agree - but it's a useful confirmation that you're not out to defraud the railway if you ask to buy a ticket on a local train with just a couple of carriages.  Will look towards wording as "you may".

[John R]

Thanks. It wasn't meant as a threat. More a clarification that it would be unwise to interpret the comment "When you can't get a ticket at the station before you join" as including those who turn up with one minute to spare.

Melksham was chosen as up until now it's been excluded from the scheme, despite having (of late) a ticket machine. So it is one station where people's buying habits may need to change as a result of the extension of the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) scheme.

Of course (and this is hypothetical and not linked to any station) it's a moot point if when the train arrives there are still 10 people queuing to use the machine. One might use the argument that you should have arrived earlier, but all that would have done is likely moved you up the queue and left someone else now with the problem. If it happens on a regular basis it's evidence that the ticket purchasing facilities are inadequate.

[LiskeardRich]

At smaller stations, that have ticket offices the ticket office clerk is also the dispatch staff. Redruth on an evening springs to mind as somewhere I have regularly travelled from.
Ticket office clerk shuts up 5 minutes before the train is due to go and prepare and commence dispatch duties. Thus it's not possible to buy a ticket 5 minutes before a train is due, probably the time when its most needed!
If you have a north and south (or is it east and west?) bound service due within 5 mins of each other you have no ticket office for 10 mins before the latter train.
Onboard RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) don't accept this and opt for the blanket there is a ticket office with opening hours,, and I've intervened in the past where a RPI has started on a TIR^▸ (Travel Irregularity Report) for someone not buying before boarding at Redruth. (I was on a season but arrived at the same time as the chap RPI was going to report for fare evasion.
It also doesn't help with XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Train managers actively promote buying on board their services. I was travelling recently with a friend who travels on the same xc service most days, he opted not to buy a ticket before boarding knowing it was a xc service, friend told TM^‡(resolve) he didn't buy as had to run for the train, TM replied 'don't worry, we're quite happy to sell onboard.' The TM did warn him GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) may prosecute him if he did it on one of their trains. The two different policies will certainly cause confusion for someone less aware that they can buy onboard ok from XC. I suspect my friend gets a fair few free journeys.

[Ollie]

Be careful referring to Cross Country letting you buy on board as being their policy...because it's not.

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/no-ticket

Just a brief quote from that link:

"No ticket?

Important information for you.           

The information below highlights some key points in relation to your responsibilities as well as outlining where you can obtain further information.

We expect our customers to board our trains with a valid ticket for travel where the facilities exist for you to buy one before boarding, and it is your responsibility to have purchased a valid ticket before travelling. It is also your responsibility to produce this ticket when asked. "

It's a longer policy, including their prosecutions policy should you wish to read it.

[Chris from Nailsea]

It's worth emphasizing that most small stations' ticket vending machines (for example, those at Melksham and Nailsea & Backwell) do not accept payment in cash.  Therefore, if you wish to purchase your ticket with cash, you have not had an 'opportunity to buy your ticket before boarding' (the vagaries of the opening hours of the ticket cabin at NLS notwithstanding  ).

I therefore board my Great Western Railway train at Nailsea and make a point of proffering my exact change to the conductor on board as soon as an opportunity presents itself.  I have been met with nothing more than very grateful thanks for giving them some much-needed loose change, over the years ... 

[LiskeardRich]

Be careful referring to Cross Country letting you buy on board as being their policy...because it's not.

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/no-ticket

Just a brief quote from that link:

"No ticket?

Important information for you.           

The information below highlights some key points in relation to your responsibilities as well as outlining where you can obtain further information.

We expect our customers to board our trains with a valid ticket for travel where the facilities exist for you to buy one before boarding, and it is your responsibility to have purchased a valid ticket before travelling. It is also your responsibility to produce this ticket when asked. "

It's a longer policy, including their prosecutions policy should you wish to read it.

And that makes it more of an issue, and I've seen it from more than one TM^‡(resolve). I won't post details of services as clearly they aren't acting in line with policy.

[JayMac]

The Penalty Fare for travelling with an invalid, or no, ticket is increasing from £20 to £100 in January to 2023. Reduced to £50 if paid within 21 days.

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63412378